Jaxa (Dosing advice, please)

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by Glassgoblin, Mar 31, 2018.

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  1. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I've been following my Vet's protocol so far, but we went from pretty high for Jaxa yesterday at her vet appt to very low at her +5 last night. I posted in the main health forum last night, but basically she got down to a 51, I gave high carb treats and tested as she gradually got to 111 over two and a half hours. This morning she is at 345. I don't want to do the increase that my vet told me to do yesterday, going from 4 to 5 units in the AM, but am not sure what kind of dose is best so she gets a shot this morning. 3?

    I haven't been able to add the last tests to the spreadsheet because I am on a Kindle and it won't let me access Google Docs.
     
  2. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    How many hours after the shot did she get the 51?
     
  3. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    That was her +5, +5.5 was 56, +6 was 65, +6.5 was 83, and +7.5 she was at 111. I gave her treats after each of the first low tests and she ate some food.
     
  4. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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  5. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Are you going to try 3 u this AM? I think she needs a reduction from 4 u after that near hypo and I don't think dropping only 0.25 u is enough at this point. A whole unit drop seems safer. Do get a +2 test though to see what's going on.
     
  6. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Give some thought to how you'd like to proceed after this experience. Many people want to work closely with their vet and it can take quite a mental shift to deviate from that for a lot of reasons including not wanting to antagonize their vet. We do things differently from most vets and the outcome can be better. It's completely your choice, though, and we're always here to help whatever you decide. :)
     
  7. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I did finally give her 3 units, she has eaten, drank, been combed, ate more, had a normal bm, and is now napping. All normal for her at this time of day. Will get a +2 in 1.5 hrs.
     
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  8. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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  9. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Please keep your SS updated so we can see what's happening.
     
  10. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Sorry I disappeared, but I'm glad to see Kris was here to take care of you! It was time for my kitty's test/feed/shoot at the same time and I ended up having a klutz moment and broke a glass all over the kitchen floor.

    It can be hard to deviate from vet advice, but we're all here for you if you want help! As I recall, your kitty has pancreatitis as well, is that right? How is she right now? Is she taking any meds for it at this time or showing symptoms?
     
  11. Olive & Paula

    Olive & Paula Well-Known Member

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    Kindle doesn't support Google. I also use kindle fire. If you have a smartphone, you can get Google there an enter your data. However, using the phone for Google sheets has some limits to formatting but you can do what you need to on it. Once a week I boot up pc and fix whatever formatting has to be done.

    In other words I enter the data from my phone. Then use kindle to be here in the forums reading and answering posts. You can open ss on kindle. You get an option to view using Silk or sheets. Always pick Silk. You can not enter data though you can only view ss.
     
  12. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I don't want to quote and answer each post so here goes:

    The pancreatitis actually seems to be okay for the moment. She had some tests, which they thought looked normal at the beginning of March, and she has been consistently eating, no visible signs of nausea or pain so I haven't given her any pills for her pancreatitis since 3-10. I worry that her use of prednisolone contributed to getting diabetes; she was on it for more than a month. Every time I start thinking things are getting better something bad happens though; I swear whenever I cried all over her she seemed better the next day (eating, etc).

    I've thought about how much I can trust my vet; I want to work with them, but I don't see what the weekly visits do when she is stressed from the trip there and back, and her tests are always higher there. Of course they like to guilt me by talking about cats that are not watched and only come in when there is trouble, so they claim it is harder for them to treat. I have another test set up but had already been planning to tell them we need to taper off to once a month or so; I might ask them to do the full chem 17 panel again to see if all of her liver and other values are okay. It would be nice to see if they are trending toward better or staying the same. I had shared a copy of my spreadsheet with them last week, which is when they increased the evening shot dose, but I don't know if I want to continue sharing with them if I am not following their advice. If that makes sense?

    I use the kindle a lot, though I usually have my desktop on once or twice a day too. My "smart" phone is a tracfone though, so the memory is crap and I can't even update anything already on it atm.

    Part of my worry over low numbers, is the same worry that I had a day or two ago about getting three readings all different by 80pts. I start thinking, what it the meter tells me she is at 170, but she is really at 40? I worry a lot, which probably doesn't help but at this point I've had about 4 hours of sleep since I woke up at 3:30am Friday morning with a migraine.

    I just got her +2 (292mg/dl) which seems a lot better- slower decent than last night. Of course I had to practically wrestle her and hold her down to get it and then she farted on me in self-defense. Since I did the curve last weekend she has been very squirmy about her ear pokes (I think she jerked once when I had the lancet sticking in her ear last Saturday). Everything is updated to this last test on the spreadsheet (though the +0.5 hrs are in the comments).
     
  13. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    Got a +4, which was 245. So we are much more even today, a slow decent. I will get a +6 and then might let her off the hook until PMPS, and then do a +2 and +4 again so see how fast we are moving. More depending how how the numbers look.

    Right now I am wondering if I should do another 3u this PM, or do the usual 4u. I think I would be more comfortable with the 3u right now, but I'm not sure if I trust my instincts on this yet with only a month of experience.

    She certainly seems to be feeling good; other than drinking a lot as she has been doing for months. She is nibbling her food again after getting her whole body combed and a two hour nap. I think she enjoys being combed more than her old treats. I could do that four+ times every day and she'd beg for the comb every time she saw it.
     
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  14. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Please don't let your vet guilt you about that. To be blunt, it's a waste of money and as you said, it stresses out your cat. They can't safely base dosing on stress numbers, so the data they get in-office is worse than useless. It can actually lead to harm. The steroid is a likely culprit in the diabetes, but if it took care of the pancreatitis it's what you had to do. I'm considering that myself right now since my kitty is getting round after round of pancreatitis. It's good to hear that your kitty seems to be in the clear for now on that.

    I do share dosing with my vet about once every few months (whenever I need a new vial). And I did get a little talking to at this last insulin pick-up. :smuggrin:
     
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  15. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    I have a kitty like that too! He doesn't care about treats, but get out his brush and he comes running - tail high and making those happy cat noises. :cat:

    I tend to be a little more aggressive with dosing than Kris, but I think the 3u might be too little, especially since the 51 was at +5. I think I would suggest a 3.5u dose, however, if you're more comfortable at 3u for a couple of cycles, that's fine. Sometimes mama-sense is telling us something. Will you be able to get a couple of extra tests tomorrow too? If Jaxa has a hard time with tests, you might aim for a +3 and +5 instead to catch a little later in onset. The +2 gives you a hint what's coming, but it's rare for a kitty to really show much at that point (unless it's an early nadir kitty).

    One thing to remember is that you usually won't know the right thing until afterwards. So we try something, and then see how it goes and adjust from there. So it's okay to trust your instincts as long as you can collect the data to verify impact. And after last night, you certainly know how to handle it if she does go lower. :)
     
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  16. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Djamila and I differ a little in our dosing approach. My tendency to err on the side of caution comes from dealing with my tricky cat and I like to work out dosing by starting a bit lower than what is likely needed and increase from there as quickly as is safe. That's one of the many strengths of this forum - having different slants on what to do. :)
     
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  17. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I should be able to get a couple extra tests tomorrow before her +9 in the afternoon, and then at least one more in the evening. I am wondering if her nadir is closer to +5, so will have to continue trying to find that lowest number and make sure next weekend gets more tests also.
     
  18. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Maybe give 3 u tonight and tomorrow then go to 3.25 u on Monday?
     
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  19. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I just did her test/329, and after she ate a bit I gave her 3u, will do a +2 or a +3, depends on how she seems at the +2 time.
     
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  20. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    How about keeping 3 u for today then increasing to 3.25 u tomorrow AM. You'll have to eyeball that. If your syringes don't have half unit marks it'll be trickier but not impossible. Consistency dose to dose is important rather than absolute accuracy. You can buy syringes with half unit marks to make it easier. If you're willing down the line, you can dose ProZinc with U100 syringes and a converson chart to get a whole other range of fractional dose options.i
     
  21. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I did give her 3u this morning. I don't know if it is just my inexperience, but she seemed to have more consistent 200's when she was on lower doses daily, with a range that stayed a little flatter within 100pts or so. She was eating the higher carb food while we were waiting for our YA delivery, and I wasn't getting help putting her food up soon enough before her PMPS (which I am getting now), so her PMPS were often higher at the same time, but it seemed that the more insulin the vet wanted her to be on, the fewer yellows. Her only red have been when she is at the vet office, though I can't say that she hasn't been that high at a time we were just not testing at home. Maybe I'm just not seeing it all the right way yet. I do wonder, looking at her typical +3,+4, +5, and +6 tests (when I've been able to get them) if her nadir is closer to +5 than +6.

    I don't know if it was because of the super low numbers on Friday night, but she didn't eat well yesterday morning, and then yesterday afternoon seemed to get back her full appetite and ate well this morning too. Just did her +3 and she seems to have a good downward slope today also. Will get a +6, and then do a +3 PM. She is very active today; following me, playing, smacking the dog.
     
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  22. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Yes, there were more yellow PSs for a short spell at a slightly lower dose but I wouldn't put too much weight on them. The recent blues and greens are more important to look at. The way forward is rarely clear cut and linear and that's why we call it a dance. Jaxa leads the dance and you follow.
     
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  23. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I don't know if I should use the word "goal" but are we seeking lower consistent numbers? Like, lower PS numbers with a good curve that doesn't drop too low between? I'm not sure if her Friday numbers are what would be considered a bounce, but that is what scares me since I'm gone for nine hours every weekday, and my retired mother doesn't check on Jaxa very often since the kitty likes to stay in a quiet room (with her food/water/litter/stuff) away from the dog.

    Poor Jaxa, I'm such a control freak. I have to keep reminding myself, and my family, that there is no magic cure and all of this is a marathon not a sprint. I just like having something in sight as a guidepost to kindle hope that we are moving in the right direction.
     
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  24. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    It can take a very long time but there is light at the end of the tunnel. I've been at this for 2 years with Teasel. I had to learn a long time ago that patience was what I needed almost more than anything else.
     
  25. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    A little higher the last two nights, but looking at her slope between PMPS, +2 and +4 the numbers are staying pretty steady in their jumps. Am I wrong for wanting things to be slow and steady?

    The last three shots have been an attempt at 3.25, though I'm not sure if it wasn't closer to 3.5. Wondering if I should go to 3.75 tomorrow. We have the u-40 needles, with no half marks or little lines other than whole unit marks. My scare tonight was almost dropping the insulin when I was rolling it between my hands. I was already planning on getting our back-up insulin this week, so this just cemented that plan. Have her +2 for tonight, will get a +4 later.
     
  26. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    You can try an increase tomorrow. It’s hard to eyeball fractions with only whole unit marks but I’d try 3.5 u.
     
  27. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    I've always been so scared about breaking the vial (can you imagine the stink?!?!) that I put a towel on the counter when I get out the insulin to roll and draw the dose, so it has some padding if I drop it (which I've done). Also keeps it from rolling off the counter (I'm a bit of a klutz :rolleyes:).
     
  28. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    3.5u this morning (or so). I am concerned that she is still drinking like mad. She drinks a lot at one time though so I'm not sure if I think she is drinking more than she actually is because of seeing that. She doesn't seem to pee as much as she did a month ago though. Concerned this morning because she drank a lot and then about 5 minutes later puked up a little (less than tsp?) of the water (not the food she just ate 20 minutes before thankfully). Last night she burped several times, so I was almost ready to get out a pepcid ac quarter for her, but it seemed to settle down after a short time. She had been gulping down her food, but I worry that I explain those things away too easily.

    Of course right now she is upside down and grabbing her favorite mousie. I freak out and she goes to play.
     
  29. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    They mess with our minds! :confused: If you need more fractional dosing options U100 syringes (with half unit marks) with this conversion chart will help a lot: http://www.felinediabetes.com/insulin-conversions.htm
     
  30. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    They really do; we've been on this health roller coaster since November because of the pancreatitis. She hasn't shown any signs of that since February (maybe January if her Feb flare was really the diabetes asserting itself). I can't remember being able to relax much since then. Every day it's all about whether she is eating and drinking properly, does she need anti-nausea/appetite stimulants, how is she moving, what is in the litter box, her general appearance and attitude. Even when everything seems find and she still hasn't had a pill in a few weeks I start wondering if I am just seeing things too optimistically. I am so used to everything going wrong when I start to relax, that it makes it harder to step back. In some ways she is acting like a much younger cat again- and they said she was still 17.8lb but I pick her up and she is like a feather to me now. My last cat wasted away to nothing as he got sicker and sicker and I couldn't do anything so now skinny cats make me worry.

    She goes in to the vet again this Friday (when I will tell them we are not going to come in weekly anymore) and I am really tempted to get the second bottle of insulin, more needles, and have them do a chem 17 panel to compare to the one she got on 3-9. They did test her fructosamine (Sp?) level last week and said it was in the normal range, but I put it away without adding it to the spreadsheet- will have to do that later too. We've done curve testing the last two weekends. so maybe this weekend I will stick to a +6 each day and try to let it go a little.
     
  31. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I truly understand what you mean by living on the edge all the time. Many of us here do and it's important to find a way to have a break from that. Taking on more of the directing of her FD treatment yourself helps because it's empowering. Learning that you can handle low numbers, make decisions about dosing, how much to test on a given day, etc. helps a ton. You won't feel you're at your vet's mercy - and saving a bit of money is good too. And, of course, we're always here to help. :)

    I like last night's yellows. I suggest a bump up to 3.75 u tomorrow AM. Give some thought to trying U100 syringes with half unit marks later on. It's very easy and as long as you put away the U40s where you can't accidentally grab them and have the conversion chart beside you when you draw up a dose you'd be fine. They'd allow you to have dose fractions like 0.2/0.4/0.6/0.8 u reading the syringe lines directly and 0.1/0.3/0.5-/0.7/0.9 u by eyeballing half way between syringe lines.
     
  32. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Do you work during the day? I'm guessing from the pattern of testing/not testing during the AM cycle that it's easier for you to monitor in the evening during the week. If that's true, then I wonder about the dose increase tonight instead of tomorrow morning? If you're home during the day though, just ignore all that and do the increase in the morning as Kris suggested. :)
     
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  33. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    It is tough dealing with a sick kitty! We truly get that. As Kris said taking on more management of FD will help. Also remember to do things you enjoy. Take a walk, see a movie, have dinner with a friend. I found that taking an hour for myself and getting out helped tremendously. It’s such a relief to allow yourself some time that can be about you.?
     
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  34. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I usually test/feed/shoot right before I have to go to work in the AM, and hope that my mother puts the food away at the right time before I get home in the evening. She forgot tonight, so I did a test right when I got home and then at the usual time an hour and a half later to see if there was a trend in the numbers. Seemed okay to give the shot as usual, and her +2 is done too.

    I think our 3.5 has probably been pretty close to a 3.75, but will try for the 3.5 in the AM and a tad more for the PM tomorrow.

    She doesn't know it, but she is being very kind to other kitties this weekend. I have all of these bags of food (at least 4) that she can't eat anymore- from Iams and Purina Beyond to the Hills Prescription (W/D) and the Royal Canin Glycobalance. I can't throw away food, two bags are going to the animal shelter and the other two bags are being given to the animal impound (I work for law enforcement) for the kitties waiting to be picked up or brought to the no-kill shelter after their week in kitty jail.
     
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  35. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    Back from the Vet, where of course we are still high, but she wasn't as high this week as last, and is lower on her PMPS tonight too. I'm just going to be paranoid about having a sharp drop like last week, so will be getting a +2 and +4 tonight, but then sticking with +6 over the weekend since I've done lots of tests the last two weekend. No vet next week (at least not planned); got our backup bottle of insulin and the next batch of needles so we should be set for the moment. We just need to have a good chill weekend for a change.
     
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  36. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    You can bump her up to 4 u soon. You saw a bit of action at 4 u a while ago so get a +2 the first cycle you try it.
     
  37. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    The vet was suggesting the 4u/4u again this week. I told Jaxa that she doesn't have to go back next week, but I don't think she believes me yet. Now I need to find a new water fountain to replace our Drinkwell that just died, and that can be her reward for being a good kitty.
     
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  38. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    We did get some dark greens last night but it was at nadir (her +5 from what I've seen) and she was eating, playing and acting normal, curled up with me and though I planned on getting a +6 as well, we fell asleep. She is eating, etc. this morning so I stuck with the 3.75 and will see how things go to determine tonight's shot. If we are getting big drops between numbers that makes me not want to go to the vet for that reason as well since I've only seen that in the tests on Vet day. I think she gets super stressed from two car rides/kennel, being at the vet all day, and then she doesn't eat much during the day even though I bring her food to the Vet office. Will have to test next Friday to see if there is a difference or not.
     
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  39. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    You did the right thing in sticking with 3.75 u. Those dark greens last night are very nice numbers. :) She might be high today because of bouncing. If this proves to be her pattern over time, it's possible to give a slightly higher dose in the AM. Something to consider another day.
     
  40. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    She didn't seem too bad yesterday, though I thought it was odd that her +2AM was the exact same as the AMPS, her +7 looked like it was good though, and the evening +4 was a nice blue instead of the usual yellow. I was all set to give the 4u this morning, but when her AMPS was under 300 decided to stick with the 3.75 one more time, and see how today goes.

    I've been thinking about getting a can of food open too; we have a variety of lower carb pate options, but she usually hates canned food. I give one spoon (cereal spoon size) and she won't eat all of it in a whole day even f I warm it or add warm water to make it smell more appealing. I need to find one that is more like the biqsue packets she used to like (but not seafood as she is refusing all seafood flavors currently).
     
  41. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Good call to leave her at 3.75 u this AM. Get a +2 or +3 and then maybe a +6 or +7. Cats and their food quirks! Very frustrating sometimes. I thank my lucky stars I have three good eaters who aren't at all fussy.
     
  42. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    That's always tough. Trying to figure out what food they'll eat can be time consuming and frustrating!
     
  43. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    A little higher last night, but she was under 300 again this morning, so kept dosing consistent. I'm wondering if that means that her AM dose should go up to 4u to get the PMPS numbers lower or keep it the same and give it a few more days to see if there is a bigger pattern since I won't be home during the day to check how low she gets.
     
  44. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I'd keep it the same AM and PM for now. I suggest waiting until a day off to raise the dose so you can monitor.
     
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  45. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    She decided to be a creep this morning- I was making my coffee before our AMPS, and while she usually goes back to the bedroom to wait for her food, she didn't today. I heard a crunch behind me, turned and she was eating a piece of dog food. The dog doesn't usually leave anything overnight, but I guess that is something that has to be put up every night now just in case. I hope it was just the one piece that she ate, but I can't know for sure.
     
  46. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Sneaky girl!!! It happens...hopefully it was just one piece!
     
  47. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Kitties! :confused:;) She was hungry and there was that dog kibble ...
     
  48. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    Well, crap. We just had our first real fur shot. I don't know if I got a through and through or if it came out of the injection spot; I felt the needle go in, but I usually massage around the area after and it was definitely wet and stinky. I will check a +2 or +3 to see if she got any, but I expect higher numbers tonight.

    I just needed to slow down a little more I think. It has been a manic day at work, and too much stuff to do at home so was trying to be quick. I washed her down a bit, so she can't lick anything off her fur and will just keep an eye on her.
     
  49. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Aw I'm sorry. We ALL do fur shots...don't even worry about it. It happens...you'll get her back.
     
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  50. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    It happens to all of us - more than once! :confused:
     
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  51. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    Maybe she got some of it, her +3 was a number that wouldn't be out of place on any other night. She has been playing all evening, has eaten (she grazes) four times since her PMPS now, and has been very frisky and social so she must be feeling pretty good.
     
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  52. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    AMPS not so bad, shot went better than last night and she seems fine still. Playing with her mouse next to me in bed this morning, while I was trying to sleep. I made sure to put the dog food up last night though.
     
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  53. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    That’s adorable! Well, maybe not so adorable while trying to sleep huh?
     
  54. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    Not too bad tonight, got a nice blue at her +3, and not too sharp of a drop so I'm not worried about nadir in two hours. She keeps trying to get me to go to bed so she can walk on me though.
     
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  55. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    :joyful:
     
  56. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    Not unhappy with her numbers these last several days; most days I feel like we are going in the right direction at least. I look forward to seeing what tomorrow is like after not going to the vet for the first time in a couple weeks. Both of the last Fridays she was super high at the Vet for the nadir test, and then seemed to bounce and go really low for her evening nadir. I want to see what her numbers will be without the stress of two car rides and being in a kennel all day on a Friday, and then we will get some extra +tests this weekend like we've been doing lately. I am wondering if we should stay at the 3.75u or go up to 4u and see what happens this weekend.

    She has seemed to feel really good this week; more social (leaving her room in the evening), playing, good appetite, seeking attention. I hope that means good things for her health too.
     
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  57. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    I think you could raise it to 4 on a day you can monitor. I wouldn't do that until you can monitor though...

    Yes, her acting like she feels good is good! Remember she's more than just a number...her behavior and how she feels is as important as her BG.
     
  58. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    Lately it seems her evening #s are better than her morning #s; so I'm wondering if I should go up to 4 on both shots, or just one (and which one would be best)?

    *I've been trying to test ketones whenever I see a chance; I am hoping to stay on top of it and get the practice now when she doesn't show any signs. Adding those to my spreadsheet as well.
     
  59. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I'd do a curve this weekend before changing anything. Hurray for ketone testing! :smuggrin:
     
  60. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I'll be getting some extra testing done, though might miss a +3 or so due to errands to run outside of the home tomorrow.

    Weird thing about tonight; her PMPS and +3 were exactly the same numbers we got on Wednesday. Exactly.
     
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  61. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I kept it at 3.75 today since I was out of the house quite a bit, but got a +6 and just got a +3, strangely flat numbers at each test. Tomorrow I'll bump to 4u and get a +3 and +6 after the AM shot, and +3 after the PM shot, play it by ear if more is needed.
     
  62. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    Her +3 and +6 have been nice blues today. I may try for a +8 since I have to be gone during the +9, and then get some + tests after PMPS tonight.
     
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  63. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Lovely numbers today!! :D
     
  64. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I wish her PMPS was a little lower- had to poke her several times to get enough blood to test- had two e-7 error strips and it took us an extra 10 minutes. Poked myself pretty good too. I think some nights when she is really hungry she is harder to test because she is focused on getting to the food dish that is put up.
     
  65. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    She could be on her way up into a bounce after the blues. If she's really hungry and getting wiggly you could let her eat a teaspoon or two of her food to take the edge off and then test immediately. It takes around 20+ minutes before food is in the bloodstream to affect BG.
     
  66. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    What a nice cycle today! I second the suggestion to give a little food when they are antsy before the test. Once Sam has had a little snack, he'll often settle down for me to test, and then I can give him the rest of his food to eat. Hopefully it will work for Jaxa as well.

    One note about an earlier post - you said you massage the area after the shot. You may have just meant that you check through the fur area, but I just wanted to make sure: I've read that it's best to not bother the actual injection site as the insulin is fragile. I'm not sure how much of an impact it could really have to move it around, but better safe than sorry. :)
     
  67. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    The +3 tonight is frustrating me. I tested and got 361 which worried me, so tested again ten minutes later and got 188. That large of a difference seemed odd so I tested a third time and got 281. That seems like it makes the most sense for her typical tests, but I don't want to poke her again to check. We are past our usual bedtime and have to work super early. I have to strangle the autocorrect on this stupid kindle first though.
     
  68. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I don't rub her after the shot, it is more like petting to feel for wetness but I do both sides of her body each time. I want to have her used to being touched while eating so she doesn't get tense when I am giving the shot. If that makes sense?
     
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  69. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Wow, those are big differences in the reading. I don't blame you for not wanting to test a 4th time. Regardless of which number is correct, she's in a safe enough range you can go to sleep. I'd probably say to put the 281 on your spreadsheet, and then in the notes put the other two numbers since you think that one is most typical for her.
     
  70. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I feel like our pre-shoots are going up again, but it is just the last couple days that we've gone to 4u. Is it typical for numbers to go up and then settle again?
     
  71. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Numbers can do a lot of wonky things unfortunately. Any extras you can get on a work day (eg. just coming home from work and also evening) will fill in the picture. I think after today you could try a 0.25 u increase. She's a bouncer and they can be so challenging! I always find it better to put more weight on the "between the PSs" BGs rather than the PSs, especially in a bouncy kitty. The PSs can often be elevated from their overreaction to the cycle's lows. High and flat between PSs is usually from bouncing off previous cycles' lows assuming the dose is high enough (or near high enough).
     
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  72. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I think I will wait for the weekend to increase; she was kinda high tonight too which is a little disappointing after we had such nice numbers for a while. She seems to feel fine though; lots of playing and today was concerned over the puppy (who was spayed yesterday and came home this morning). B12 arrived today; will wait until morning to give so we can stick to a schedule.
     
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  73. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Poor puppy! :(
     
  74. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Aww poor puppy! Hope she feels better soon.
     
  75. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    The puppy is fine; already energetic. She and Jaxa have been smelling each other a lot more in the last few days, without the usual jumping (puppy) and hissing (Jaxa).

    I am looking at our latest numbers and wondering about the suggested increase to 4.25; her evening numbers tend to be lower and then she gets a little higher in the morning for her AMPS. So I'm not sure if I should increase on both shots or just one. My Vet was having me increase the AM shots before I increased the PM shots, but he wanted whole units each time so we went fast.

    Waiting til the weekend when I can watch her more closely and do some extra daytime testing. I hate not knowing her nadir in the daytime; though my mother suggested that she should learn how in case the cat is acting odd (she didn't seem to want to just do a regular testing schedule though- working on that).
     
  76. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 17, 2016
    You already have curve numbers at the 4 u dose from 15 Apr. You could try a boost to 4.25 u in the AM tomorrow and leave PM at 4 u. It would be early after the AM increase but you could do a daytime curve on Sunday. OR you could experiment with dropping the PM dose to 3.75 u tonight, leaving the AM dose at 4 u and do a curve on the weekend.
     
  77. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    We did go to 4.25 this morning; she was on the high side of her semi-regular numbers; of course I was laying in bed wishing for fifteen more minutes of sleep while she was rolling around and meowing at her current favorite toy at the foot of the bed so she feels fine. She has been eating really well lately (at least the recommended amount if not more of the YA) and I wonder if the bisque is part of the reason- it can't be so much carb in the tsp she gets daily, but maybe it makes her hungrier? I don't know. Trying to stay on top of the dog food theft too, but I think I miss it sometimes when the dog leaves bits on the floor in other rooms.
     
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  78. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    You'd be amazed what even a small amount of high carb food can do to our fragile kitties. If you can try a few days without the bisque and see if it makes a difference it might be worth trying. Oh wait....is that how you're giving the zobaline? Will Jaxa eat any freeze-dried treats? If so, I use freeze dried chicken or salmon to give meds - crush them up, add the meds, add a tiny bit of water, and stir together into sort of a paste - the kitties gobble it right up!

    I can understand wanting 15 more minutes of sleep. That insulin alarm (a.k.a. Sam's wailing cries of starvation) is hard to ignore! I went straight back to bed this morning and thoroughly enjoyed an extra hour of sleep!

    Hope that dose increase helps today!
     
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  79. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I've tried some freeze dried treats- she absolutely refused the tuna ones, the chicken/catnip one smells good to her but she doesn't seem to actually eat any, and the liver ones I break up a little but she mostly gets them when I've sprinkled the dust over her kibble. I did get some unsweetened kefir today, so see if she would try it, but the tsp I put out is still sitting there two hours later. She is very fussy. Saved some tuna water to try tomorrow, and can see if that will make a difference. I was hoping for some blues today, but her +4 and +6 where mid-200's still. I jabbed myself really good too, but I was at 107. Had to be sure I didn't accidentally contaminate her test.
     
  80. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    The tuna water wasn't a huge hit- she had half of what I gave her (less than a Tbsp). I will try crushing and adding water to the liver treats, and if that doesn't work will open one of the weruvia cans and give her some of the broth (she won't eat the chunks even when I puree them).

    I think I will look into finding a recipe for something like the bisque that I can make at home, without the carb content. She really likes the texture/consistency, and thinking out the pate canned food hasn't quite met her standards in the past. I might try egg yolk or other things I can find too, in case those can tempt her.

    Her numbers have been pretty consistent this weekend- but not going very low even in the middle of the cycle (at least not during the day when I've checked). So it doesn't look like she is bouncing, but I had hoped for a little more movement on her numbers.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2018
    Reason for edit: added note
  81. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    My cats won't eat weruva either. Not even the broth.

    They aren't really fans of the liver treats but they love the Cat-Man-Do freeze dried chicken and the plain freeze dried salmon too. They also love bonito flakes - you can buy them as a cat treat, but the cheaper option is the human bonito flakes sold in asian grocery stores or on Amazon.

    I'm a fan of homemade food - your idea to make a bisque-like food might work! If you want to make it a complete food, there is a supplement powder you can get at foodfurlife.com (they also sell egg yolk powder), or recipes for homemade food at catinfo.org. Or if you're making it just as a snack, none of that matters since they can get a small portion of their food without all the supplements and still be fine!

    Wouldn't it be nice if our babies weren't so fussy!?!?!?
     
  82. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I did try turning some of the duck liver to dust and added hot water- she ate it just like that (except for the more chunky pieces- I'll use my mortar and pestle next time). That was a trial run pre-vitamin, but will try again tomorrow with the b12.

    Jaxa is very fussy. I had gotten a bag of the Cat-man-Do bonito and she acted like it was the most revolting thing she had ever smelled, so I gave the bag to the shelter. Pumpkin (organic) was once suggested for her litter issues a few months ago, and she hated that. She had a week where she loved and only would eat seafood flavors and then suddenly hated it and refused anything fishy.

    We do make homemade dog treats with chicken livers, so I am thinking about making a little liver puree with a few extras to give just a dollop at a time with the vitamin. I cooked professionally for people for eleven years and they can be picky, so I hope I can make something my kitty will eat for a few days at least.
     
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  83. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Does she like fortiflora? I have one cat that would eat a shoe if I sprinkled that on top first, and another cat who won't touch it. Same with nutritional yeast. That's been working well as a flavor topper for one of my kitties, plus it's got B vitamins so it's actually good for him. And it's yummy on popcorn for us humans!

    If you do a search for "liver shake" there is a recipe around here somewhere that people swear by when a kitty isn't eating well, but I'm sure you could use it just as a treat/medicine conveyance too.
     
  84. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    :joyful: Mine would too!
     
  85. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    The vet gave us several packets of fortiflora last November when she was starting to get sick from pancreatitis, but she wouldn't touch it after getting sicker while eating it (she won't touch her food from back then either). I do have nutritional yeast flakes, but hadn't tried that before for the kitty. She had been getting some probiotics, but after the diabetes diagnosis I put all of those supplements on hold until I could be sure they were safe (and the dog ended up eating her chews). The slippery elm was a mix that included marshmallow root (I've read not to give that to diabetics), and the CBD oil hasn't been needed - and she loathed the dropper so we put that on hold. I would like to get her on a probiotic or some kind of digestive/bowel friendly supplement again but will probably leave it at the B12 for the moment until she gets used to that first, then gradually introduce other things. It's too bad that she didn't want to try the kefir, I've read that it can be really good for cats and dogs.
     
  86. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    Tried the tuna water this morning and added a little Dr. Elsey's canned, but she barely touched it. Will leave it out while I'm at work (added a touch of water) and see if she finished; she was licking her lips a lot after and I'm hoping it was the food and cleaning and not nausea returning. I've been worried about a flare happening in the middle of all this since hse was diagnosed, and was so hoping not to have to start pills again. Will see how the day goes I guess.
     
  87. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Good luck! :)
     
  88. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    She ended up not eating the rest of the Dr. Elsey's/B12 mix, so I guess that is a food she doesn't really want (she did try some of it first). Went back to the bisque this morning and she ate it all.

    I know I don't have many days on each of the dosages, but sometimes it looks like as I raise the dosage her numbers go up too- the 3.75u was getting some decent numbers compared to right now when we are getting some of the highest numbers we've had so far. I just don't know what that means, or if it is just typical for starting a new dosage. We are having several very long days this week - leaving early for work today, tomorrow, Thursday, so we can't screw around too much with changing things yet. Almost finished with our first bottle of insulin and we passed the 100 needles mark a few days ago.
     
  89. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 17, 2016
    Leave the changes for a time when you have a bit more breathing room. Those blues and greens can come and go so don't put a lot of weight on them. No recent reds and that's something.

    Some kitties develop glucose toxicity from being in higher numbers more readily than other kitties. The way around that is careful 0.25 u increases and not lingering too long at an ineffective dose. You have to work within your own schedule though.
     
  90. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    You did your initial increases pretty quickly. You could try lowering the dose a little and working your way back up again. If you do that though, you'll want to keep a very close eye on ketones, and do the 0.25u increases every 3-4 cycles with no delay. You'll also need to do some middle of the night tests to keep an eye on things. Jaxa doesn't bounce much, so it's possible that she's sneaking down into the greens during the night and you're just not seeing it because, you know, sleep. ;) If you look at the cycles where she went green, she dropped later in the cycle than you usually test, and then in the morning was right back to a perfectly normal-for-her number with no sign that there had been a lower number in there.
     
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  91. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    Furshot tonight so we might get into the reds; there is a chicken running around my backyard, Jaxa managed to tip half her litter box onto the floor, and now a furshot. It has not been a good day.
     
  92. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 25, 2013
    Ah! That does sound like a terrible day!

    Well furshots happen...we've ALL done them (and then there are people like me who not only did furshots, but also tested, fed, prepared the shot...then left it sitting on the table and went to work without giving the shot. Not once, but TWICE!). The good news about a furshot is that you can get some rest and take some time off testing. :)
     
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  93. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Oh no! :bighug::bighug::bighug: Hopefully tomorrow will be a better day for you all!
     
  94. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I know we had a furshot, my fingers were very wet and had that distinctive smell of insulin, but the weird thing is- both times this has happened (so far) her numbers still went down at the +3 and her next AMPS was still lower than the day before. Is it all just random? I know there is a variance on testing, but then it all seems kinda meaningless if she can get those numbers with or without her shot.
     
  95. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Aug 1, 2015
    Because Prozinc has a 10-14 hour duration in most cats, the PS numbers in some cats won't vary much. For example, if your cat as around ten hours of duration, then the PS numbers every day are not insulin influenced. In that case, the PS number will be around the same regardless of the fur shot. However, if your cat has 14 hours of duration and you miss a shot, then the PS number would be higher than normal after a missed shot. That's why the mid-cycle numbers are so important. That's where the impact of the insulin is really seen.

    You can really see the impact of the fur shot in the +3 that is about 100 points higher than the previous one, and if you had kept testing through the cycle, you would have likely seen a relatively flat curve - slightly higher after the food (your +3) and then gradually returning to his normal range.

    The lower AMPS, while lower than many of his numbers, isn't inconsistent with his typical range (you had the exact same number on a PMPS a few days ago).

    So not meaningless. Although I can understand that feeling! Just remember that it's the mid-cycles that tell you if the insulin is working, not the PS numbers.
     
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  96. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    What do you do about sabotage? Food was up at usual time this afternoon, but then an hour later my mother gave Jaxa friskies treats, because she was giving some to the dog. So I tested at our usual time and she was at 399! I did give the usual dose, as she is usually in the 300s anyway, but should I have waited another hour? Now I have to wonder if she has done this other times when I wasn't around. She knows better, I've told her so many times no treats. Argh! So mad right now.
     
  97. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Very annoying! Would your mom agree to giving YA treats or freeze dried meat treats instead?
     
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  98. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I've been trying, but it is a matter of convenience- she takes a handful of treats out and just gives each animal a pile. I've also tried to explain that Jaxa doesn't need to get something just because the dog is getting something. She is also supposed to be on a weight-loss trend, and so I am a bit stingy with the good treats too. This is why our last dog was about 10lbs too fat as well. I am the no food from my plate type, and she shares half her meals with her dog.
     
  99. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    I was going to make the same suggestion as Kris - get some good treats for both the pup and Jaxa so that no matter what treats mom grabs, they won’t hurt anything.

    My mom would totally do that! Lord knows she does it with my dad already (he has diabetes too and she's always sneaking him carbs - as if his pancreas isn't going to notice or something! :rolleyes:)
     
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  100. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    Mar 3, 2018
    And we are high this morning too (red), bouncing or just going up. Will jump to 4.25u tonight I think, and try to get more tests. And try to chill out because these higher numbers freak me out a little.

    *I did order another bag of YA ZeroTruCarnivore treats, which are listed for cats, dogs and ferrets, so I can keep that bag by the regular treats the dog gets. I want to look at my local place again this week to see their freeze-dried treat options too.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2018
    Reason for edit: treat note
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