https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19pYXPB-jHiali67jDDiWRNJysHrqFinSnvn0iekAcoc/edit?usp=sharing This so Far is my Spreadsheet. Today I thought was going to be a good day 12/8/18 however we started our AMPS at 513, gave 1 U at 8am 12pm Came around did a Test at +4 after shot. It dropped to 381. Our PMPS was Over 700 Human Meter Said High so assuming over 700. Tested alittle before 8pm I guess cause shot time is 8pm. Gave 1 Unit of Insulin +4 Hours Later Tested glucose and it was still saying "High" on the meter. Now we have been bouncing around since Last Sunday. Please Let me know what's going on? She also ate Fancy Feast Today the Pate' style about almost 1 can. She has been Drinking Water, However I have to take a Bastor because i have nothing else to syringe in her mouth,just to get her to drink sometimes im afraid shes not drinking a lot at dish. She will not drink unless you put the water to her mouth sometimes or same with food. I'm not really sure whats going on with her..... the Levels of high Glucose is bad and she staggers while walking, she doesn't even go to the bathroom without us actually taking her I think its because its to far of a walk however she will walk down the hallways afterwards? She has a Severe UTI that is being Treated With lots of Antibiotics however looks like it might take more Antibiotics to get this UTI to go away, either that or she has another infection somewhere in her body. any Suggests will help. I got told to come to this forum and to start filling a spreadsheet.
Hi Dawn. I’m glad you got the spreadsheet going, that will help the others see what’s going on. Here’s the link to your Health thread http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/diabetes.207633/ How long has she been on antibiotics? Was a culture done before AB’s? Do you have any other bloodwork results?
Dawn, given the high numbers and the infection, and that she isn't eating, I'm very very concerned about DKA. Do you have ketone test strips at home? You can buy them at a human pharmacy. They are little strips that you need to put in urine to test. If Little Girl has ketones, she must go to the vet right away. They are very serious. If you cannot get a test at home, you can take her in and they can do a test at the vet office.
She is eating we just rushed her to her vet. And to find out from the emergency vet we took her too she has the starting of kidney failure. The other place I took her to beginning told us bad uti. Now the emergency room says kidney infection. We did tests today and she is on the on set of kidney failure. Please tell me what we can do the vet gave her antibotics, a antibotics to give to her once a day, told me cranberry pills the powder in canned cat food. We are going up 1.5 units in the morning and 1 unit at night. She only has little blood in urine. The urine looks light color. I hope we caught this in time. The infection is what's raising the glucose.
The kidney values will be off if its a kidney infection. It may improve once the infection clears. Can you post the lab reports? If you don't have them ask the vet to email them to you. They can live a long time (years potentially) with kidney disease if treated.
Her lab reports came out not so good. Alot was elevated. However we are trying to treat it. We r hoping she gets better but not sure.
Thank you for being so kind! Does anyone know about how to help the weakness in her hind legs she can't walk now
The neuropathy in her legs will be helped by getting her bg under control and adding b12 methylcobalamin supplements such as zobaline from Amazon.
Has the infection cleared? What are her numbers today?is her potassium levels normal? If you have a copy of the labs please post them here.
Her levels are still abit high but not like before which was over 700 seems like the antibotics are working been on for 5 days now . lastnight her bg was 344 and we gave 1 unit. We check at 7:45 am and 7:45 pm we also check in between if need to be her poor ears are harpooned. This morning walking was a bit tough she did walk a little more then yesterday. Her temp has been checked 8 times in about a 2 week period if not shorter. She is also having constipation problems so I am feeding 1tsp of organic pumpkin in her canned food along with cranberry powder for her kidney infection and the uti that started it. If her BG is higher then 400 we do 1.5 units at 1.5 units she drops down about 200 in BG. So if she's 300 something we will do 1 unit just to be on the safe side of not bringing her to dangerous levels. Yes I do remember her lab somewhat and potassium was pretty low. She is also getting a multi vitamin started yesterday It does have 0.8% in potassium instead of one chew I'm giving her 2 chews now. She's lacking alot of vitamins.
Oh! A great treatment for arthritis is adequan. It's an injectable, but since you are already used to giving shots it's no big deal ... And it works better than any pill I've tried. Ask your vet about it.
You need to have a regular testing routine to know how to dose her optimally. Please record all the test numbers you have so far on your spreadsheet and we can help you. Here's what we recommend: follow the basic testing routine outlined below every day keep the same dose AM and PM unless the pre shot test shows a low number don't change the dose in response to a high pre shot number get a test or two in the +4 to +7 range every day if possible because that's when she's likely to be lowest - that's the test data you need to know how a dose is working low numbers in the 90 to 110 range are your goal give the full dose unless her pre shot number is under 200 or so post here as often as possible so we can guide you. Basic testing routine: test every day AM and PM before feeding and injecting (no food at least 2 hours before) to see if the planned dose is safe test at least once near mid cycle or at bedtime daily to see how low the BG goes do extra tests on days off to fill in the response picture if indicated by consistently high numbers on your spreadsheet, increase the dose by no more than 0.25 u at a time so you don't accidentally go right past a good dose post here for advice whenever you're confused or unsure of what to do. This is useful: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/hometesting-links-and-tips.287/
hello I updated the Spreadsheet please take a look at it. I told my father to give her 1.50 this morning but he insisted on doing AMPS 1.25 so we can give 1.25 in the PMPS But however as you seen I did give the other 0.25 insulin tomorrow we will stick with 1.50 seems like its working better as far as I can see but im no expert that's why I am here for advice. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19pYXPB-jHiali67jDDiWRNJysHrqFinSnvn0iekAcoc/edit?usp=sharing
Thanks for updating! Try to avoid giving portions of an insulin dose after the AM and PM dose times. It's best to give the full dose, get a few tests in the +4 to +7 range to see what it does and give another full dose 12 hours later. Deviating from that can cause a lot of erratic numbers. Treating feline diabetes is hard enough so we recommend testing and dosing methods that give good information, don't create more problems and are sustainable over time for the caregiver. You can't get good results if you react to every test result. It's the spreadsheet patterns over time that tell the tale. Here's what I suggest: stick to 1.5 u both AM and PM unless she surprises you with a pre shot BG in the 200 range (I can say with a high degree of certainty that it's unlikely) keep that 1.5 u dose both AM and PM tonight and tomorrow resist your urge to react to an individual number with a dose change - ask here if you're unsure if you can't get a test in the day between +4 and +7 get one before bed that evening.
Okay will do. We did do 1.5 in am and 1.5 in pm and it dropped to like 50 on human meter.. at night took her bg at +8 I just didn't want to do that again. But I do think 1.50 is what she needs. We will try tonight and test between the 4 and 7 see what happens if at +4 or +7 she is at 50? Give her honey correct? I do have her eat at 5am in the morning.
On what day did this happen? Is it a day that your spreadsheet shows? If so, please put that data there. Anyone who gives advice goes by what is seen on the spreadsheet. That's why we recommend it so strongly. If it isn't complete we could easily give bad advice ...
I didn't start the spreadsheet until December 7th. This was on December 4th. I didn't keep track until the 7th. Very new at this. When the vet gave her 1.5 u on December 4th it wa's 9am she was over 700 on the animal meter then he turned around and gave her 1.5 u at 5pm we brought her home he said do not give anymore insulin tonight. I'm assuming it's because he didn't wait until 9pm to give insulin. Her bg level at +7 was 175 it dropped more by +11 to 50 on human meter we gave some honey and got her to eat.
OK. This is good info to have. It's possible that 1.5 u won't have that drastic effect this time around but testing will reveal that. Even a week ago is almost ancient history as far as responses to a dose go. If a lot of time is spent in high BGs it can reduce the kitty's cells' ability to respond to insulin so that a dose that caused a nosedive at one time does very little several days later. Dropping low at times when there's no data can also set the stage for rebound into high numbers. Those are just a few examples of reasons why we're such strong testing advocates.
Have you seen this info on hypos? Good to print out and have with your FD supplies or in your "hypo kit". http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-to-treat-hypos-they-can-kill-print-this-out.15887/
I was trained by the vet on what to do but if there 100 at like +4 hours I'd Def think it would go down so I would give honey. We do home testing and watch her carefully. Sometimes I sit up at night until 5am to watch her.
My parents went to give insulin shot of prozinc while I was at work. My dad thought it was in. Apparently she didn't get all of insulin what do we do? Also her reading was bg: "hi" still.... been like that all day.. she is eating drinking ect tho. We will be retesting bg at +4
1. if she is at 100 at +4, it does not mean that she will necessarily go low, and you would not want to give honey at that point. You could give a snack of regular, low-carb food and continue to monitor. Most often, if a cat is on a good dose, they will drop down, and then start to flatten at towards the nadir. Giving honey should only be done when they are too low (below 50) as it's a little tough on their systems. It's an important tool when you needed, but shouldn't be used if it's not necessary. 2. What do you mean that your dad thought it was in, but apparently she didn't get it all? Was there insulin left in the syringe still?
He went to slide the needle In for the injection and apparently was not all the way and lost some insulin. Not sure how much she got we did 1.5 u. Do we just wait until tomorrow morning to give her insulin again?
Hi Dawn, I'm sorry I wasn't able to respond last night. As Janet said, we never reshoot on a missed injection like that because you can't tell how much insulin got in and can end up overdosing the kitty. We call it a "fur shot" and put FS on the spreadsheet so anyone looking knows that the cat didn't get the full dose that cycle. It's frustrating when that happens, but it's only one cycle. Hang in there.
That's very good to know. My father in fact knows not much went in but I will never reshoot again. I monitored her all night. Did a bg reading +4 and it was 343. She was high all day long. But rather have her high then low for sure. We will be keeping her insulin shot at 12am to 12pm now it's so much easier probably for schedule. No going back to 8am to 8pm unless I skip a cycle... don't really want to do that.
Okay so little girl got her insulin at 12pm 1.5 u she went from 379 to 59 by +6 hours. We fed her tuna in oil and rechecked 25 minutes later at +7 she was then 111. I'm assuming dropping that low at +6 isn't good. I'm going to go down in insulin possibly 1 u or 1.25 what would you suggest she will be retested of course before her night shot.
Try giving 1.25 u if you feel you can monitor. That 59 is still in the safe zone but a bit low for comfort. Don’t be surprised if she rebounds high after that 59.
Continue with 1.25 u today. The high bounce numbers can persist for a few cycles so resist the temptation to change the dose. Consistency rules!
That's still a bounce-inflated number. As I said above they can persist for a few cycles. Keep the 1.25 u dose.
Your spreadsheet is showing a dose of 1.25 u last night. Did you give that or give 1.25 u? If she dropped to 59 on 1.25 u then I suggest you hang in at 1.25 u for the day today. That 59 is low-ish but safe and many kitties run lower at night. If you did bump her up to 1.5 u last night go back to 1.25 u and stay there for today. If she drops into the 50s or lower on 1.25 u today then you'll need to reduce to 1 u. Let's see what she does first. This whole FD thing is stressful and can cause us to be reactive to every BG number. It really goes against the grain to just hang in at a dose but that works best. Please clarify last night dose as soon as you can.
Been giving her 1.25 u did not check at +6 hours her ears hurt. Gave her a break will check tomorrow her last reading was her pmps 544
Dawn, what is Little Girl eating these days? How about treats - if she eats them, what kind? Do you have other pets that eat anything different?
Little girl is on fancy feast pate and I have 2 other cats in the house hold my big guy named finn is overweight. So we have dry food out for free range we switched them to overweight mangement by purina pro plan. However because little girl is so sick with the kidney infection / her kidney numbers were pretty much on the edge of kideny failure. She eats pate fancy feast and tuna in oil or water. She has ate the dry food but not much only nibbles. I did find some treats pounce is the name 6-8 pieces for a cat her weight which id only give about 4 pieces, which she weigh's 5 lbs right now with the diabetes and what not she went from 5.7 lbs to now 5lbs.
She went into atleast over 600 for sure when tested before insulin at 12pm. We gave 1.25 u and at +6 it was 592... she has been eating more.. we have been doing 1.25u for couple days now and 1.50 u in the amps and pmps seems to much she drops to low at the nadir. Stick with 1.25 u for couple more days?
I did 1.50 u to get to lower the bg. I'm assuming because she's feeling better and eating alot more 1.50 u might be okay now. Will check at +6 to see her low.
I would very much suggest a change in food. Finn will lose weight much better on a low carb diet wet diet - just like with humans, carbs cause weight gain, although while we need carbs, cats do not. If you transition all of your cats to a low carb wet diet, Finn will have a better chance of losing weight, and Little Girl will get out of those black numbers. Even a single piece of kibble can raise their BG numbers. Believe me, I've tried it. I really didn't want to take Sam off of kibble because it's so convenient, but finally saw that even a bite or two made a big difference for him. Same with the treats. You can get freeze dried chicken or other freeze dried meat treats. Kitties go absolutely crazy for them and they don't have carbs. Insulin alone isn't enough to get a kitty into healthy numbers. It has to be insulin and diet working together.
Any ideas on what to give for constipation? I've been giving 1tsp of canned pumpkin for 5 days now. She is trying to go but just isn't coming. Up the pumpkin? Or any other ideas? @Djamila @Kris & Teasel @Rachel
I wish I could help but I don't have experience with constipation in my kitties. Many here use Miralax if pumpkin doesn't help. It's also a good idea to add extra water to all wet food meals because maintaining good hydration is important. Some members have success with a supplement called "Natural Moves" that can be ordered online: https://www.nativeremedies.com/petalive/natural-moves-for-pets-support-digestive-health.html
Try 1/4t miralax twice/day until she poops. And definitely add extra water to the food - I add a hearty 3T to a can of fancy feast. Some people add even more than that.
I've also used egg yolk powder. http://www.foodfurlife.com/store/p9/EZ_Egg_Yolk.html . It's more used for maintenance than to cure constipation though.
We took little girl in to do a blood test just to see where her numbers are at then before she has been on an antibotic called albon? Something like that. She's taking 1 1/2 of that orally. AnD then he's giving her every 4 to 5 days a shot of vanquinmyicyn. Her numbers for her kidney's are changing in numbers for the good but not a huge change within the 2 weeks are plan is to keep doing antibotics and fluids ect. Retest blood in a month. I got a copy of the test will be uploading it here. Almost forgot her weight is now 5.3 vs 5.0
I'm glad things are improving. I can't comment on the antibiotics because I have no experience there. Try hard to stick to the same dose AM and PM and not react to the PS unless absolutely necessary. I'd go with 1.25 u for now. Dec 20 was interesting in that she came down to 11 on only 0.5 u. These weird things will happen occasionally but overall dose consistency is best.
I've been giving 1.5 u for 3 days besides the weird hiccup on 12/20. Her Bg has been high even at checking +6 it's in the 500s do I need to go up in 0.25 unit and make it 2 units at amps and at pmps? or go back to 1.25u see what happens? I also am going to switch at testing her now on the +5 maybe her nadir changed however still shouldnt be that high. I have been feeding tuna in oil alot due to she has alot of weight loss and needs to gain weight maybe I'll feed that to her morning and night and feed tuna in water rest of time, I know fat turns into sugar too. I know her insulin has to be consistent. @Kris & Teasel
I still recommend 1.25 u and leave it there for AM and PM for, say, two days unless a PS is very low. Post here for help if that happens. Those blacks can be rebound numbers from dropping even a little lower than normal. She's volatile in her responses and frequent dose changes can make that worse.
Okay I'll go back to 1.25 u for couple days. Thanks for all the advice your giving me o really appreciate it. @Kris & Teasel
While most cats have a time when they reach a typical nadir, it can and does change from cycle to cycle, so it's good to move the tests around and not just test at +6 each cycle. It will give you a more complete picture. Also, when you can, getting two tests in a cycle can be helpful to start to get a sense of the duration of the dose. I'm not an expert in feline nutrition, but I've read that oil is not good for cats. In addition, canned tuna is not nutritionally complete and should only be fed occasionally since it doesn't have the nutrients cats need to stay healthy. Many say cats shouldn't be fed tuna at all because of the mercury in it. If you are wanting Little Girl to have more calories, I think a higher calorie, but nutritionally complete food might be a better way to approach that.
Yeah she's Eating fancy feast but she honestly hates the pate. She treat's it as if she is drinking water so she gets tired of licking... so I've been mixing tuna in oil and the fancy feast together. We also wondered about the tuna in oil however that's what the vet recommended.
@Kris & Teasel @Rachel @Djamila @JanetNJ Here's the test results from 12/21/18 and numbers on far right are results from 12/9/18
I went to 1.5 u tonight again we keep dropping to about 300 and then rising to 470ish by noon which is the morning insulin shot. Then at night we are eventually running about 400 again at +6 by +12 comes along we are higher again. If 1.5u doesn't work might have to go up to 2.0 u however questions here. How many times do you feed a diabetic cat? I feed early in the morning and she eats about 1 tblsp of tuna with her meds ect. Then I'll feed her about +5 later and she eats 1 1/2 tsp of fancy feast then she's hungry about +3 later then eats after that +4 mind you she only eats 1 1/2 tsp unless she's really hungry up to 1tbsp. Then i test her blood, feed, then shoot. Am I feeding to much? She needs to gain weight so ive been letting her eat whenever
I don't have any experience with labs, Dawn, so I don't have good info about that. As for food, I always free fed my cats, even with my sugar cat. I just took it up 2 hours before shot if they hadn't eaten it all. It's fine to feed a diabetic several times throughout the day...a lot of people do that. It can help regulate them a little better to have smaller meals more frequently (also help them to feel more full and not be panicky at meal time!).
I can't help with lab interpretation either. As for feeding, I would let her eat as much as she wants in several small meals a day or let her graze if that's her style. As Rachel said, just remove all food in the two hours prior to the PS. Re dose: I'd go back to 1.5 u for 3 or 4 cycles. If that doesn't produce at least a yellow, go up to 1.75 u (not 2.0 u - too bug an increase at this low dose level) for 3 - 4 cycles. She's very volatile and things have been complicated by the infection but dose consistency and regular 0.25 u increases as needed is the way to go.
Okay awesome we did the 1.5 u and it dropped at +6 150. It all depends how much she eats in a day I figured out. She eats fancy feast or tuna in water/ or in oil. Hardly eats dry food.
Nice!. Keep that dose for today and we'll see what tomorrow's AMPS is. No dry food is best and as much proper cat food as she'll eat because the recipe includes all the needed vitamins and minerals. We often recommend limiting fish and big fish like tuna are higher in the food chain so they tend to have higher mercury levels.
We are now giving her 1.75 u however she's been staying in the 400-almost 600 range. Her lowest she has dropped that I know is 207. She is eating a good amount of fancy feast poultry now most so far is 1 can and 1/4 of another in one day plus eating a tad bit dry food. We will be sticking with 1.75 u for couple days. Not really sure why she is running so high. Does prozinc ever balance out the amps or the pmps? Are these numbers going to always remain high? Was just wondering we will see for couple days then will be increasing to 2 u @Kris & Teasel
I'd continue with 1.75 u today and bump it to 2.0 u tomorrow. The yellow lows are an improvement over pinks. Yes, she's bouncy and rebounds high. If you hold an ineffective dose too long glucose toxicity can build (quickly in some cats) and reduce her sensitivity to insulin. That's the reason for fairly frequent 0.25 u increases until you see low blues in the middle cycle. Try to ignore the PSs and focus on the lows.
Okay sounds good. Will go to 2.0 prob tomorrow we aren't getting the low we need yet close but not yet.
Yes, prozinc does eventually bring down the PS numbers, although not quite as flat as the L insulins get. However, since she's eating some kibble, they will probably remain rather high, although hopefully better than they are now. She's getting a really good insulin response (the amount of change from pre-shot to nadir), so when the rest of the kitties are transitioned off of the kibble completely, you will see improvement.
I have told my parents that all cats should be on wet however affording the wet food for all cats are expensive 30 cans for 17.00 once 3 cats are eating it its expensive. The dry kibble is prescribed over weight management purina pro plan 50.00 for 16lbs bag that lasts more then a month due to litthe girl hardly eating it. Little girl comes to us and asks for wet food most the time before going to dry. When she eats dry it's only about 10 pieces if that and she walks away. Checked bg at +11 later 585. gave her 2 u at 12pm tested +4 hrs later 453. Not dropping fast might be good then? She's irritated with us now and blood testing isnt bad but giving insulin she fights. She hates the needle thinks what the vet did we r going to do.
I have a feeling this little one is eating too much. She eats 1 tbs of food 5 to 6 times a day.. she weighs 5.8 pounds now I'm wondering if this is too much? We tested her bg it said hi.. giving her 2u here soon see what happens overnight.
If she needs to gain weight you can let her eat. Is she still getting kibble. That'll make it hard to stabilize BGs. Aside from that, continue the 0.25 u increases until you see blues in the middle of the cycle. Ignore the high PSs.
Yes she is eating some kibble,not alot. Went to 2 u and lastnight it dropped to 54 at +7 hours. She didn't eat much at night. But eats more during the day. I will ignore the amps numbers and pmps I know the mid is important I'm sure she won't stay in the "green" over night. still give her 2 u if her amps is at 225? Or even 399?
Your PMPS and dose for last night are missing from your SS. That 54 might be an initial dramatic reaction to a dose increase earlier. Lots of cats run lower at night too. I suggest you try 2 u today and get a +2 to see where she might be headed. If the extremely high PS continue you can give some thought to trying Lantus instead. It can be bought much more cheaply from a reputable Canadain online pharmacy - info available later on if you want it.
Yeah I was wondering about an insulin change the vet offers vetsulin as the next insulin ? I can tell him about lantus next vet appointment is Monday the 7th
Actually, Vetsulin can make a bouncy kitty even bouncier. A depot insulin like Lantus generally gets them calmer.
I agree with Kris - don't let your vet talk you into vetsulin. If they bounce on Prozinc, they'll really bound on vetsulin. If you want to switch, head towards lantus or levemir.
I think I might know the problem and of course very new to this our prozinc is in the fridge door.. I read that you shouldn't put that there. I'm wondering if I need to get a new vial of prozinc the insulin isn't cloudy looking like it was in the beginning. Before I put it in the syringe I roll the vial.it's cloudy but not enough. I see clear more then cloudy in the syringe. Let me know your thoughts on this
When you roll the vial gently a few times it should take on a milky appearance. If you see clumps, etc. that's a sign the insulin has been altered somehow.
Okay good to know. We are going to finish this up I placed it in the fridge not the door, it is milky but not milky enough. Might need a new vial. We are also weening the cats off dry food and they will only be allowed to eat dry at night time now. I think this will be for the better to help the elevated bg like Djamila suggested. Her bg at +2 was 296 I only gave 1.75 u due to not going to feed dry throughout the day. Another bg check will be +6.
+6 after amps was 308 by the time +11 came she was 533. Even without the dry kibble she runs higher however not like 600 though. I will be going back up to 2 u. I just didn't want to put her in low sugars since I took away dry. We will see what her amps says today go from there.
In some cats the impact of removing kibble is almost immediate. In other cats it takes a little while. Especially given the 54 the night before, a high cycle was to be expected. When a kitty isn't used to low numbers like that, they will "bounce" up into the high numbers for a cycle or two. Hopefully she'll settle back down soon. @Kris & Teasel has written out a nice explanation of bouncing. I'm sure she'll be along soon...
Here's my explanation of bouncing. It explains why a kitty's BG can go from low to sky high: BG goes low OR lower than usual OR drops too quickly. Kitty's body panics and thinks there's danger (OMG! My BG is too low!). Complex physiologic processes take glycogen stored in the liver (I think of it as "bounce fuel"), convert it to glucose and dump it into the bloodstream to counteract the perceived dangerously low BG. These processes go into overdrive in kitties who are bounce prone and keep the BG propped up varying lengths of time (AKA bouncing). Bounce prone kitty repeats this until his body learns that healthy low numbers are safe. Some kitties are slow learners. Too high a dose of insulin can keep them bouncing over and over until the " bounce fuel" runs out and they crash - ie., have a hypo episode. That's why we worry so much about kitties that have had too high a starting dose prescribed by the vet and the owner isn't home testing.
Thank you for explaining. I read up about the liver however your explaination is better. she started off on 1 u amps 1u pmps. She's only been on insulin for a month I suppose it takes longer for the body to realize it doesn't need to take from liver