Do Daa's PZ Dosing Thread2

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by Goose, Dec 21, 2019.

  1. Goose

    Goose Member

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  2. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Excellent! I’m pleased to see he didn’t go too high!

    Thanks for starting a new thread :)
     
  3. Goose

    Goose Member

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    :)
    SS Updated.
    He's at 274 at +3 with a 5.5u shot.
    We aren't staying up tho, because very tired. So he may in fact go lower. He will have plenty of food however.
     
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  4. Goose

    Goose Member

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    SS Updated. Mostly in the Yellows today. Still at 5.5u through tomorrow, longer if needed.
     
  5. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Flat yellows can sometimes be predictive of a bounce clearing cycle. If it is, you might see, at least, more blue :)
     
  6. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    It would be good to get a +7 tonight if you can. When clearing a bounce, they can drop quickly.

    Blue numbers are safe. He might drop fast...that does happen. It takes time to get used to the lower numbers. It is scary if they drop quickly. That’s why it’s important you have a hypo toolbox.
     
  7. Goose

    Goose Member

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    SS Updated. Only managed the +3 not the +7.

    However, he is down into the Blues again. Hopefully not like the 20th.....
     
  8. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Very good! Let’s see what he does tonight; I would think since the numbers headed up, you should have at least yellow for his PMPS.
     
  9. Goose

    Goose Member

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    You're right!
    SS Updated. 260 and 5.5u given.
     
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  10. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Not too bad, though. I would test no later than +3 because he might head back down at onset.
     
  11. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    That 260 isn't bad at all. Numbers are looking much better.
     
  12. Goose

    Goose Member

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    +3 it is.
     
  13. Goose

    Goose Member

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    I like these numbers much better. I'd like steady numbers at some point.
     
  14. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    It’s looking to me like the dose reduction failed. We can see where he is tomorrow but the dose might need to go back up.
     
  15. Goose

    Goose Member

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    SS Updated. There is a Blue however. We shot 5.5u and will tomorrow (Christmas) as I don't expect many here.
     
  16. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Let’s see if he sees some green tonight. If he doesn’t, he needs a dose increase.
     
  17. Goose

    Goose Member

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    Hi,

    I have a question, I'm not sure if I asked it before. The Vet wanted him between 150-250. Does having him in the Greens run the risk of him crashing sooner and us not catching it?
     
  18. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Vets always have a higher range of numbers because they aren’t available to you 24/7. For us, 150-250 is too high and you’ll never have the chance to get him into remission at that range. Plus, those numbers are getting over the renal threshold which is the point where the kidneys can’t handle all the sugar and it gets dumped into the urine.

    The tools to keep him from “crashing ” is testing and food. That doesn’t mean his BG might not got lower....sometimes they surprise us as you saw the other night but you caught the slide!

    You might want to look at the Start Low Go Slow method. This mentions Lantus but it’s the same for PZ.
     
  19. Goose

    Goose Member

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    Well, Remission is what we want. I does make sense that the Vet would want those numbers, it keeps it safe for them not the cat. Also keeps you coming back and spending more money on testing there and never really solving any of the problems. That is why this place and people including yourself, are extremely helpful to people/cats going through this.

    Merry Christmas!
     
  20. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    We try. We have a pretty good success rate :)

    Merry Christmas to you all, too. If you can add any tests in that you take tonight, I’ll post about dose before I go to bed.
     
  21. Goose

    Goose Member

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    SS Updated. 325 but he ate a lot of food at his 9pm shot time.

    We haven't re-weighted him yet, but he has gotten more dense, he is heavier than before which I believe was like just over 14 pounds.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2019
  22. Goose

    Goose Member

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    SS Updated. We shot him today with 6u. He went up tonight to 446, we believe, due to the fact that he snuck some melted ice cream.

    We haven't re-weighted him yet, but he has gotten more dense, he is heavier than before which I believe was like just over 14 pounds.
     
  23. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Glad to hear there's a reason for that red. Can you please make a note of that in the remarks just so we know when looking back on the numbers.

    Is he heavier now than pre-diabetes or just re-gaining weight he lost due to the diabetes? It's important not to let him get overweight.
     
  24. Goose

    Goose Member

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    Pre-diabetes he was 18lbs. So we believe that because he isn't eating all that much in the course of the day, that he is just re-gaining more muscle mass and not just fat. One can of FF in a 24hr period and a rounded 1/3 of a cup of CP is all he's eating.
     
  25. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    He may need more calories to gain back what he's lost and rebuild his muscle mass. Right now he's getting roughly 270 or so. If he is hungry, it's ok to let him eat more. Unregulated diabetics can't process their food properly so they need more calories than usual to get the nutrition they need. At 18lbs. Do Daa would need about 315 calories per day.
     
  26. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Sorry I didn’t get back around but I’m really happy you took the dose back up.

    Was he overweight at 18 lbs or could you feel his ribs and see his waist?
     
  27. Goose

    Goose Member

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    He did manage to eat an entire can today in a 9hr period, so that's a plus. He isn't at a want for food at any time, he just likes to graze which can be annoying.
     
  28. Goose

    Goose Member

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    SS Updated. He stayed a little higher today.
    He was a little on the heavy side at 18lbs. You couldn't feel his ribs or see his waist, as far as I can remember, it was awhile ago.
     
  29. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Lots of pink yesterday. Hopefully, he’s seen some better numbers today.

    We need to ask you to please read and follow the directions in THIS POST. If you need any help or need me to do it for you, please PM me. You’ll need to rename the “Sheet 1” tab to “2019” and delete the excess rows after 12/31/2019. Thank you.
     
  30. Goose

    Goose Member

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    SS Updated. More pink.

    I PM'd you above the above.
     
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  31. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Looks like he needs a dose increase to 6.5u unless you see some blue tonight. Possible to get a +3 and +7? I don’t like raising him without knowing if he’s sneaking down a bit.

    Thank you.
     
  32. Goose

    Goose Member

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    SS Updated.
    Only managed a +3. He was given a 6u shot and he hit a Blue at +3 (141) this morning, back up slightly because of food at +5.5 (216).
     
  33. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Ok. Thanks. Let’s see how he does but I’m still leaning towards increasing the dose to 6.5u. However, you probably want to do it on a daytime cycle and not at night.
     
  34. Goose

    Goose Member

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    Hi,
    We were planning on testing him at 5pm (+8) or right now at +7?

    SS Updated.
    ** Just tested at little after 4pm (+7) at 127.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2019
  35. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    You might want to give him a little LC snack so he doesn’t drop too much before PMPS. I’d also retest him one hour after you feed him. Please don’t miss that test. :) You will probably also want to get a +10 so we will know what we are dealing with.

    If you could please respond to my PM requesting editing rights to his SS, I can add your 2020 tab. Thank you.
     
  36. Goose

    Goose Member

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    Test him at 7pm (+10) and re-test 1 hour after PMPS, correct?
     
  37. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    • Test him at +8 (assuming you fed him at least 30 mins before)
    • Test him at +10
    • Test him at PMPS
    • Then we will see where he is
     
  38. Goose

    Goose Member

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    SS Updated. Will test at +10 (7pm) and at normal pmps.
     
  39. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Excellent. Thank you. I just don’t want you to have any surprises like the last time he was on 6u. Hopefully, we will just see some flat blue!
     
  40. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    With that PMPS of 209, it would be good to get a +2 and see if he onsets then.
     
  41. Goose

    Goose Member

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    SS Updated. 1123pm (+2.25) 280. He's eating some food now also.
    71 point bump I have to directly relate to the food he ate. He's had nothing since pmps.
     
  42. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Welllll........I’d suggest a before bed test. Unless you see lower blue tonight or in the morning, I’d also suggest an increase to 6.5u as long as you can test a bit tomorrow.
     
  43. Goose

    Goose Member

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    SS Updated. 87 at 530pm (+8.5)
     
  44. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    I would definitely feed him 2-4 tsp of food and recheck 30 mins after he’s done eating.
     
  45. Goose

    Goose Member

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    SS Updated.
    Just tested at 7pm (+10) and his number is the same, 87. He is eating some now.
     
  46. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Ok. After he’s done eating, I’d hold off on food but test about 15 minutes earlier than usual for PMPS and let me know how he’s doing. If he’s lower, don’t panic and don’t feed unless he is in the 30s. If he is (anti jinx), just give low carb food.
     
  47. Goose

    Goose Member

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    I updated the SS at 730pm with the other test. At that time he went up to 101. It's in the same green cube as the 87.
     
  48. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    I want to be sure I’m clear. Did you actually retest or was that test taken even 30 minutes later? If you took it at +10.5, then stack the numbers in the +10 column so it looks like this: 87; 101 @+10.5 and then manually color it green so we know that’s the lowest he got.

    thank you. How long before you test before PMPS (minutes).
     
  49. Goose

    Goose Member

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    Fixed, I think. Yes he was tested at +10 then again at +10.5 (7pm, 730pm)
    SS Updated. Just tested him he's at 157.
     
  50. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Excellent. I’d give 6.5u again but you’ll want to be sure you test by +2.
     
  51. Goose

    Goose Member

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    Ok. It's safe to give that much at 157? I'll test at +2 (11pm)

    PMPS at 9pm is 150. He's eating before shot..
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2019
  52. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Yes. It’s safe as long as you test :)
     
  53. Goose

    Goose Member

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    Done. Test at +2.
     
  54. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Great job! See you then.
     
  55. Goose

    Goose Member

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    SS Updated. 141.
     
  56. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Pretty flat. I’d say you are going to see some lower numbers tonight. And he has eaten, yes?

    I’d be cautious and test at +3. Just in case that’s his onset time, you don’t want to wait and get a surprise at +4.
     
  57. Goose

    Goose Member

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    He is eating some right now. I'll test +3 that's in about 32 minutes. What about a +4 (1am) test?
     
  58. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Let’s see where he is at +3.
     
  59. Goose

    Goose Member

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    SS Updated.
    Down again at 101.
    Maybe 6.5u is too much?
     
  60. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    So far, these are great numbers. I know they are scary to you but we strive for normal numbers 50-120.

    You can use food to manage his curve and stop or slow down the drop. It’s ok to feed him some more LC and test at +4.
     
  61. Goose

    Goose Member

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    They are on the scary side to people new at this. I'd like him to stay in this range sooner than later. It's easier to get use to these lower numbers if there aren't such wild swings, like the 494 he was this morning down to 87, then up to 150, then down to 101. I'd like to be able to count on the fact that he'll stay in a given range.

    We'll test at +4 then off to bed. He'll have his typical 1/3 of a cup of CP overnight.
     
  62. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Until they get regulated, it’s not uncommon to see such unpredictable numbers.

    If he’s down at +4, you’ll want to test more.
     
  63. Goose

    Goose Member

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    He's down to 70. What do we do as it's 1am?
     
  64. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Did you ever get any high carb food? If so, give him a couple tsp with the gravy.

    If not, I’d give him a couple tsp of his food with a drop of karo. Retest in 30 mins.
     
  65. Goose

    Goose Member

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    We have some of the Temptations cat treats I believe those are higher carb. This is assuming he'll eat anything at this hour... we'll try.

    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/temptations-not-a-good-treat.128662/
     
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  66. Goose

    Goose Member

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  67. Goose

    Goose Member

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    56 at +5
     
  68. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    I’d give him some karo....on food if he will eat it or put a little in his mouth. Retest in 30.

    I’d take his dose back to 6u in the morning.
     
  69. Goose

    Goose Member

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    He has had some of the karo on his gums but didn't like it, wouldn't eat food with it on it. Retesting in 15 minutes.

    Will take him back to 6u in the AM.
     
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  70. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Lather, rinse, repeat. If he’s not coming up, give more Temptations and karo. Retest in 30. That’s how we do it until the BG has started up.

    Just so you know, in the Lantus/Levemir forum, the longer diabetics’ (+ 1 year) reduction point is a drop below 40. So at 57, he’s still very safe.
     
  71. Goose

    Goose Member

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    121 at +5.5

    but don't know if it's just the Karo - will test at +6
     
  72. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    That’s good. If he’s still up or rising at +6, you can get a couple hours sleep but karo wears off in two hours so I’d strongly urge you to set an alarm and test to be sure he’s not headed back down. I know it’s hard. You can look at my Gracie’s SS and see how little sleep we got.

    I’ll stay awake another 30 for the next test if you like. It will be about 1 am here then.
     
  73. Goose

    Goose Member

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    If you'd like to. Hopefully he rises faster.
    Thanks for your help.
     
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  74. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    You’re welcome! I’m fine waiting for the next test.:)
     
  75. Goose

    Goose Member

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    164 at +6-am
     
  76. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Great. I’m going to call it at night. Again, I’d suggest you test in two hours so if the carbs wear off, he doesn’t tumble.

    Good luck with the reduction. Let’s hope this will kick start him a bit.

    Good night!
     
  77. Goose

    Goose Member

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    SS Updated.
    148 at pmps just like last night before all that extra drama....
    Gave him 6u again.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2019
  78. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Very good! That’s what I would have done. But because he’s clearing a bounce, he might have a very active cycle. Be prepared.

    It looks to me like he might be more carb sensitive than I expected but he also responds slower. Because of the way he popped up so fast last night (great job testing; I know you were tired) and went so high today and then came down, he had some loss of duration mixed in with bouncing.

    Your “job” is to figure out his feeding......what works best on controlling his numbers so he doesn’t get too low. You might need to adjust his feeding as well. With Lantus, we often divide the food into mini meals that are fed at PS, +1, +2, and +3 to work with the insulin as it onsets. It’s important that you be open to changing his feeding schedule so he doesn’t take them big dives. Big dives mean big bounces and it becomes a cycle you don’t want.
     
  79. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    I was checking in and saw Do Daa is dropping today but flattened out in the last hour. It’s important to keep an eye on that BG and feed him if it goes any lower. Please see my post above.

    As I said above, it’s important to get the dive, bounce, dive cycle stopped. The way to do that is through managing the curve with food. I am on the way out the door right now but here’s information on how to do that (it was written for lantus and levemir but the same concept applies to PZ; note that PZ has more of a curve like lantus than it does like levemir):

    Please read and let me know your questions and I’ll check back in later today. If his BG drops and you need help, post the “911” by editing your thread and selecting the “911” button in your subject line. If there’s no one on PZ forum, post on Health. However, you’ve used Temptations to bring him up before and it’s getting later in the cycle so he “might” start up. He might also continue down because he’s in this dive/bounce cycle. I will be back long before your shot time.
     
  80. Goose

    Goose Member

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    SS Updated some.

    He's a grazer and usually has at least some food after all of his tests (sometimes every 2 hrs), but I can't feed a cat that doesn't want to eat so frequently, even Temptations is only a temptation if he's hungry.

    When he becomes obstinate, we end up putting wet food on his front paws until we think he's had enough or he gets up and jumps off the table.
    Also, we have a needless syringe we are going to use for the maple syrup because it is thin enough for the syringe. We'll use it if necessary to bring BG back up. Tested it with .7ml and it works great.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2019
  81. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Nice afternoon part of the cycle. It’s really important you keep track of what he ate, when he ate, how much he ate so you can see how it affects his BG at different times of the cycle.

    You can teach a cat to eat on a schedule. I did it with Gracie (who had been a canned food grazer) so I could manage her curve with food and also with my two current, no diabetic cats. One of them, I didn’t even try until he was 6 years old.

    I’m glad the needless syringe works for syrup. If you used 0.7ml the other night, it was a bit too much. You might need to experiment with that as well.
     
  82. Goose

    Goose Member

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    SS Updated. It was wrong before. He fell to 60 and is now back to 155 due to syrup/temptations/dry food. We used .7ml tonight when he was at 60 to bring him up ....
     
  83. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Remember is post 46 above, I stated that in those two hours before shot time, you don’t want to give HC unless he’s in the 30s. Towards the end of the cycle, unless he’s up in the 30s, we just feed low carb as duration is waning.
     
  84. Goose

    Goose Member

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    That must have gotten lost in all the information, (the in the 30's part). As he fell to 60 it didn't dawn on me about the time, only to get the number back up.

    I wrote it down this time.

    At any rate, he's likely on a sugar high and I don't want to shoot him in the next 15 minutes or so if the numbers we will see will not be accurate.

    Especially at night, we get very concerned at PMPS if his numbers are to low. What is the general thought that the lowest level of BG (number) with 6u should be? He's dropped anywhere between 400 points to as little as 100 before.
    Nighttime is a lot harder to manage.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2019
  85. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Here is an importang quiz:
    If he’s coming back down, what would your options be for shooting tonight?

    If you are worried he might still have a food spike, what would your option be to still shoot tonight?
     
  86. Goose

    Goose Member

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    I added to my post above.

    I get concerned about shooting him at even 150 with 6u. It did a number on him at 6.5u just recently at 150. Food play a large role it seems once it kicks in and if you can even get him to eat or eat on que.

    I don't know. We will test at 9pm pmps to see.

    Just tested he's at 256. 100 point climb in 45 minutes - so a false number due to sugar? (do I add to SS?)

    Can we test again at 10pm and see if his numbers are down and shoot say 3u? or a noticeably lower dose?

    Or not shoot him at all tonight....
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2019
  87. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    There is no “rule” other than the lowest number that anyone shoots and that depends on what method of regulation they are following. As an example, with Lantus and Levemir, we don’t shoot below 50.

    For the most part, it seems a lot of PZ users use Start Low Go Slow which would mean not shooting below 90. It’s up to each member to understand their cat’s pattern enough to know what number they can safely shoot, what number they shoot a half dose with, etc. Obviously, it can make it more of a challenge when he’s diving and bouncing. Flat numbers are easy to shoot because they often stay flat.

    When did you last give syrup? +10? If so, I would not feed him, I’d retest in 30 minutes, and if he’s still on the way up, I’d give 6u. If he’s down, you can stall up to one hour total but you could then choose to give less insulin. PZ does not have a depot like Lantus and Levemir so you don’t have to contend with that.

    By and large, skipping shots that are above the cutoff you are using is for the caregiver, not the cat. There are extenuating circumstances but what you are dealing with now is very routine.
     
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  88. Goose

    Goose Member

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    He was given syrup at +10 (7pm) .5ml

    We ran out of everything HC and had to go to the store.... we tested when we got back from the store, 155, and he was given food then also. This was 8pm and he finished at 810pm then tested at 845pm at (256). Which is not listed in the SS as not accurate due to HC... we believe.

    It's 920pm, 1/2 hour past shooting time ...
     
  89. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    You should put the 256 on the SS. It’s a test and it is accurate even if it is HC influenced. Data is data. You can put comments in the “Remarks” column.

    Please test and see where he is and decide what you think is the best option. (I will let you know if I agree :p).
     
  90. Goose

    Goose Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2019
    I'll test in 10 minutes, that will give us 10 minutes to agree :D
     
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  91. Goose

    Goose Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2019
    297 at 951pm. pmps +1

    Do you think this is still being influenced by the HC food even though he finished at around 810pm?
     
  92. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    Nope. I’d shoot 6u.

    ETA: It looks now like loss of duration. He might also be starting a bounce. We will know when he onsets tonight. If it’s just loss of duration, he will come back down tonight fri where he is now.
     
  93. Goose

    Goose Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2019
    SS Updated.
    Done. We'll test him at +4.
     
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  94. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    You’ll want to record his BG like this all in the PMPS column:

    256 @ +11.75; 291 @ +13

    That way we know you shot at +13 (an hour late).

    You’ll also want to put in the remarks that you gave HC at +10.
     
  95. Goose

    Goose Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2019
    SS Updated and fixed.
     
  96. Goose

    Goose Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2019
    SS Updated.

    A large bump from 147 to 448 - he had food at +9 (quite a bit) and nothing until pmps. At pmps he ate 1/2 a can of FF. The FF that he gets the most is beef, chicken and turkey pate.

    Most, 95%+, of his dandruff is gone, at least for now. He is eating more wet food and drinking a lot less then before. Kentone is negative still.
     
  97. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    He is dropping on you somewhere to have those black numbers. I would suggest you try and catch him. I know you don’t like getting up but if he’s down at +4 tonight, I’d check him again at +7 since he likes to tumble towards the end of the cycle.

    That’s great that he’s doing better! We’d love to see a photo of him if you wanted to load an avatar.
     
  98. Goose

    Goose Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2019
    Catch him and do? We'll do the +3 and try and get a +7. His coat looks really nice. I'll see if I can find a pic, otherwise I'll take a new one sometime soon.
     
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  99. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    See if he’s dropping so we can see where he’s going lower.
     
  100. Goose

    Goose Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2019
    SS Updated. 6u for 5 days.
     

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