Aggression on lantus?

I feel like I read somewhere that someone had a cat who got nasty on Lantus. I need some input before having dh communicate with the vet. (Dh does all of the testing and injecting (unless out of town) and he handles the vet because he is better able to smile and nod through the crap, I can't be dishonest when we disagree on treatment)

Chianti has been having aggressive spells, mostly in the night, where he targets one of our other cats Luigi (sometimes he goes after his brother Mario who looks just like him but is a little bigger). He starts out rubbing on something and then just goes for him - total beeline, running as fast as he can (thank you b12 for eliminating the neuropathy), tears up the steps to the bedroom where Luigi runs under the bed. Growling, all kinds of nasty sounds. If you try to touch Chianti he will attack you viciously. If you try to push him back with a body pillow, he will attack it like he is in a wild trance. If you throw something soft at him he will hiss and sometimes attack it. But he is in another reality when this happens. If you catch him early, before he has really gone into it or seen Luigi, sometimes you can calm him down by petting him or by playing with him. He is too aggressive to test during a spell, but two times we managed to get him to calm quickly so that we could test him and he was between 200-220.

His chart is totally out of date. As an update on him, his levels are ok but probably not where they should be. DH has been running the show, I keep telling him to run nadirs to check on the dose but he has not been doing it. I have been unable to help with care as I am pregnant and had severe morning sickness for 3.5 months. I know that we need to get him back on track. But his neuropathy is gone, he is jumping again, frisky and happy. He is still peeing outside of the box in many, many locations but some of it seems to be territory related. I am continuing the b12 a few days a week. We are down to two pens of lantus so it's about time to reorder but I want dh to talk to the vet first, plus I think I need them to do a new script. Our vet is happy that we home test, but thinks doing nadirs is too much, they just dose of of preshot/fructosamine. We are majorly overdue for him to checkin, but I wanted to get any thoughts on this matter, especially if anyone thinks the lantus is contributing. We need to figure something out as I'm worried for our children. They know not to go near him if he's in an episode but I worry our 3 year old will forget. And I'm due with a baby in April.

Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.

 

Is Mario in good health?? Sometimes a healthy cat will prey on a weaker one--I have had this happen with fosters-(out of the blue then soon figured out the one being attacked was in the early stages of illness)
I have found that nadirs are very important in finding the right dose for lantus---
Before I switched to lantus I asked about personality because my guy was so sad on vetsulin and I got very positive feedback but I did read 1 thread about aggression from a few years ago.
I hope things get better--definitely do not want kids in the middle of a cat fight…. hope you feel better too!
Some others with more experience will hopefully stop by

 

i don't have an answer.... just bumping you up ....

 

I don't have any personal experience, but I believe it was Kay @KPassa whose kitty was more aggressive on Lantus. I'm not sure if she's still on the board, but it might be worth looking through some of her old posts to see what she said.

Wish I could be of more help!

 

Kari's Mocha has been having problems with aggression on Lantus. I don't know the incidence or the basis but I would suggest you talk to your vet about changing to levemir. It's a great long duration insulin and many cats do better on it. Several of us have switched from Lantus to levemir so if you have any questions, please let us know.

 

The trick will be convincing her to consider it. When I brought up the stinging with lantus she was clueless about it and seemed even more oblivious to levemir as an alternative. Our vet is really good on some stuff and then kind of out of it on other stuff. Is it difficult to switch from one insulin to another? I'd hate to see him get set back, but I'm not liking this aggression, he's just in another dimension when it happens. Like feral, possessed demon cat.

 

The cats he's going for are healthy as far as I can tell. Luigi has always had funny breath but otherwise both he and Mario have always been at very good weights, good coats, etc. And Luigi is the sweetest cat in the house, comes running when babies cry. They've never had a problem in the past 9 years they've been together. We've got some of that victim scenario playing out with one of our other cats who has always had a mean streak and the tripod we adopted in August.

 

I was told before I started with lantus that it may sting… many did not agree but I have to say that I think there have been a few times that it did ( I do believe it had to do with how hydrated he was) as he is a very mellow tolerant boy and he was not happy. 90% of the time he has no reaction and he has no aggression but yours may be having a stronger reaction.. I have my regular vet and a kitty specialist….I have switched from vetsulin (sad depressed kitty) to Pro Zinc-happy kitty but short acting-lantus happy kitty better results…I have switched 3x since October 6-hopefully lantus will do the trick-
If you explain the demon cat behavior I think the vet should want to try another insulin. Maybe you can record it on your phone? I just switched cold turkey-(advice of kitty Dr)

 

breath could be worth checking out… maybe a blood panel (complete cbc)???

 

I would get a vet to check out Chianti and get a full blood work done to see if there is something medical underlying the aggression. I've heard of some cats with hyperthyroidism acting more aggressive. And get the teeth checked out too as a sore mouth can also make them feel angry at the world. If none of those check out, I'd also recommend a switch to Levemir. It's not that difficult to switch from one insulin to the other. Post here if and when you are ready to do so and we can help you with dose suggestions. Getting a couple of mid cycle tests on the Lantus before you do so will be helpful.

Have you tried putting Feliway plug ins in around the living area? That can help with cat aggression.

And congrats on the pending addition to the family Jenny.

 

Have you tried putting Feliway plug ins in around the living area? That can help with cat aggression.
this has helped lots of kittys!

 

Haven't tried the plugins. Our house is pretty big. But I did spray some feliway at the beginning of one of his episodes and it didn't do too much. Most of the attacks happen in our bedroom so maybe I'll try putting more in there to see if it makes a difference. I might start giving him some rescue remedy when I go to bed until we sort it out. Just so weird, the rest of the time he is a total sweetheart and has even been playing like he did before he got sick. But if it strikes and he sees his victim, watch out.

I imagine he won't get into the vet until after Christmas so I'll take the extra time to start reading on the levemir in case none of the other testing checks out. Dh is on vacation starting Wednesday so I'll insist on a few nadirs starting then.

 

The feliway spray didn't seem to do a thing at our house, but the plug-in did help with aggression. The label says to give it a couple of months, so it isn't necessarily a quick fix. That might be why the spray didn't seem to help us.

This link might help you with your vet. Both Lantus and Lev's action is long-lasting, but they work slightly differently. I would definitely test for hyperthyroid. @Amy&TrixieCat has experience with that.

Can you relate the episode to hunger? If so, you may be able to feed preventatively.

There have been cats on here that have developed dementia and aggression and inappropriate elimination were 2 of the symptoms. I think some kitties get kitty prozac, but really don't know much about it.

Another possibility might be to give him Bach's Rescue Remedy. After Punkin passed away we got 2 male kittens and Anya had a bad time with them - they scared her. I gave her rescue remedy daily for a couple of weeks. That did help. I wouldn't wait til he had an episode to try it - I'd just give it preventatively for a little while and see if it helped or not. The amount needed varies by cat. Anya weighs about 7lbs and 1 drop would make her sleep for a while. Punkin weighed about 13lbs and I could give him a whole dropperful without much effect. Most people start with a drop on a bite of food - see if it does anything and if not, next time try 2 drops, etc., til you get to a point that seems to help. There are directions on the package. I bought ours at a locally owned pet store.

Congrats on your new baby! We'll be wanting pictures when the baby comes! hope you feel better soon.

 

Maybe this will help you decide
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/attention-lantus-to-levemir-users.122941/

 

I agree with what others have said about having a full work up done. I had two cats with HyperT; one had all the classic symptoms, including aggression, although admittedly he wasn't as aggressive as it sounds like Chianti is. Ruling medical conditions in or out is the only way to really get to the root of the issue.

BTW, one of my HyperT kitties was named Mario, also after SuperMario! However, we never had a matching Luigi - although we did talk about it!

 

@Marje and Gracie , as I was reading the thread I thought I need to chime in since many do not know what I am going thru and there I see your post. Yep, Mocha has a reputation now. She has been better of late.

But, @itzj I do feel your pain about this. It is of concern. I am watching my Mocha because it has spikes and calms again when Mocha is generally feeling more at peace.

I heard one growl this morning but I was not near. I am sure that there was a hard face smack upstairs. It happens around am and pm shot. I don't know what is going on with the insulin at that point but maybe she is taking a nose dive, like falling off a pain med or etc for a person. She is super sensitive and maybe her body notices something has been declined?

My vet is likewise not helpful and he wants to switch her but I doubt he has an idea what. I just got my first fill of Lantus so I want to ride it out to give her a full 6 months. But, I don't see constant aggression. Do you? If so, maybe this is not the insulin for your sugar baby. Mocha's aggression developed more recently and I do think it is food based and just not feeling quite right herself with severe hunger @ times.

I have used the Rescue Remedy but my bottle quickly lost its seal and I ordered another. I do think it helps and sometimes it is best just to give more bubble space, personal space to the cat with the dx because in my case, she is moody at times when she needs to eat especially. She likely wants the free access to dry that is for the other cat. There is a jealousy going on. I don't think the Felliway will cut it. It never has helped spiking stop. But, the rescue remedy rubbed on a few drops and also consumed a few drops, seems to help melt downs. But, I know what you say about the fear of trying to get to the cat in the meltdown. I also have been bit (not to bleed) or scratched with nails.....when trying to move her to her own space to calm and then leave her for the rescue remedy to work. But, it is not easy to put that on when they are already over the top but I have just made it happen because I know she has to calm not just for me and the 2nd cat but for her own sake. Regular use of Rescue remedy may help but the insulin may be the issue.....

Feel free to check in with me any time as not many as seeing what we do apparently. I have asked a few times about this myself. I hope that it can resolve.

 

i have put the feliway and the rescue remedy on the victim cat (rubbed it on her) and that seems to help her not get picked on so much.

definitely test for thyroid issues..... sure sounds like one....
if it's happening in the bedroom mostly, could definitely be jealousy/territorial....

maybe an extra treat or too when he is behaving properly.....
and more frequent mini meals.....

insulin is a hormone.....
so mood swings are possible.

 

After a year and a half on Lantus and a year and a half on Levemir, I can confirm that Lantus caused a personality change in Michelangelo. He was irritable and angry and just all-around felt unwell for the entire time he was on Lantus. Now, shot time is better (no more stinging shots), his skin no longer twitches, he doesn't have any attitude problems, and he actually purrs now! (He was diagnosed at 6 months old so I just thought he was a cat who didn't purr.)

Lantus and Levemir are similar enough that I would NOT wait six months to switch if you think it's the insulin causing the problem. I waited WAY too long and regret I wasn't more forceful about switching immediately after I first found out about the Lantus side-effects.

 

Thank you all for the responses, I especially appreciate the feedback about Mocha and Michelangelo. He finally has an appointment for a checkup at the vet tomorrow. DH will be taking him because I tend to but heads with the vet whereas DH is good at smiling and nodding through some of the crap (plus if I take him in I'll have 2 kids with me and that won't go so well). Tonight I need to type up good descriptions of what has been going on, as well as a sheet for DH so he knows what to consent to and what to deny (e.g. I refuse to pay for a spot BG when we can do it ourselves since they charge out the nose for that). So far I will be asking for a fructosamine and bloodwork for thyroid issues. Bringing up lantus as a potential cause and the possibility of trying levemir. This is where I expect to have issues as in the past she was clueless about lantus causing discomfort at the injection and she once wanted us to keep his dose too high when his nadirs had dropped into the 40s. I like her for other things so I'm hoping to not make this become a combative situation especially since for the most part they just leave us alone and were totally cool with us getting insulin from Canada, they even asked for the pharmacy for other patients. I have to admit I'm a little nervous about potentially switching insulins since the onset and nadirs are so different. I want DH to keep being the tester/shooter and those times are kind of wonky. It's taken us so long to get used to the routine to have it ingrained to the point that we are aware and present during any time he could be crashing if a dose were too high.

Anyhow, if there are any other suggestions on what I should bring up or approach to take I welcome input. You are all so kind and helpful.

 

No updates yet. They are running a full blood panel and urine. She is most concerned with thyroid or kidneys. Pray it isn't kidneys, I cannot handle that path right now. We should have results tomorrow.

 

Is the aggression at meal time by chance. Bubba is usually a mild mannered cat but, just recently while waiting for me to get his plate fixed ( and I can't seem to do it fast enough) he gets nasty and swats at any other poor animal that might come up next to him. It is a recent thing of about 1 1/2 weeks.

 

What I have noticed is likely Mocha's cause for irritation seems to be related to gum inflammation. The trick is, when she is acting up it may not yet be evident to me at the gum level but she must sense it. She is a highly sensitive cat. Anyhow, just mention that because as I thought it was related to high glucose that was not consistent, then I thought it was just hunger (but that was not always consistent) and it seems for her at least it is not the lantus but the underlying gum issue that has to be watched. When given clindrops (pretty potent) even 1/8th a dose once a day for a few days, it clears up and she is more sunny. May you find the cause and feel free to tag me anytime please. This is a mystery and I am concerned for you as well.

 

I was also nervous about that when I first switched. It only took a couple of weeks to figure out Mikey's new cycle on Levemir and within the first month I realized how beneficial Levemir's later nadir is. I can now give Mikey a full shot with a PS of 80 and not have to babysit his numbers or worry he might crash on me in the next 4-6 hours while I'm at work. It's led to much less fluctuations in numbers and much less stress when I'm away from home and he's now more tightly regulated than he ever was on Lantus (with half the effort, too).

 

Only news I have so far is that his blood work came back good other than his bg too high, which I knew it would be as we've had trouble getting the right dose. Kidneys and thyroid look good and nothing else is off. The vet is currently researching levemir as it's evident she has never used it before. I'm praying she doesn't get too uppity about it. This morning like 20 minutes before his dosing time he came after his victim in the bedroom. I got out of bed to pee anyway (thank you pregnant belly) so I calmed him with petting, or so I thought, rather quickly. Of course then I walked past him to get back in the bed and he decided to go for my ankle not badly but this just needs to stop.

 

Did you try the Rescue Remedy? It got my girls thru the carrier while the movers were moving about them, until I could let them out. Not a peep.

 

Just updating although there is nothing good to update.

Tried rescue remedy, did absolutely nothing to calm him. Tried it preventatively and at onset of episode, nada.

Vet refuses to switch insulin. All she wants to do is up him in dose, despite that fact that lately he's been randomly posting like 88 as a preshot value. So she's no help other than rewriting a prescription so we at least have insulin.

We put a litter box in my bathroom and are now shutting the master bedroom/nursery at night to keep him out (the rooms are adjoined). I'm really not happy about having a litter box in my bathroom (we already have a million elsewhere). But it at least gives Luigi part of the day to not be afraid.

And the bad news is that he must have gotten Luigi badly once that we didn't know about because the other night when we went to bed Luigi had an abscess that apparently burst. He comes to bed with my toddler every night and they sleep together, so that was real fun having it burst in the bed. I drained the abscess (so much puss) and then we took him to the emergency vet the next morning. They shaved the area, cleaned him up and gave him meds. He was so sweet that it only took one tech to treat him, he just laid and purred. I feel terrible because we didn't even know he had it. He was acting normal, well his new scared normal but was eating and drinking and coming out to sleep in his spot. So for right now, and possibly permanently, we are closing the nursery door all the time and have a gate that is too high for Chianti to jump (thank you neuropathy) up during the day so that the other cats who like that room can still come and go. I'm mad about the whole thing but also don't want to shut the diabetic up because he's already dealing with enough. Not to mention our good rooms for doing that are already taken by an oldish female who hates everyone and the newest addition a 3 legged younger cat who doesn't seem to get along with anyone.

So nothing good, just wanted to update.

 

Just a thought. Chianti has been hitting some lower preshot numbers and some higher ones. It is possible he may be going too low during the cycle and then bouncing up high again. This sort of big up and down in glucose numbers can certainly make a kitty irritable. You could do some mid cycle tests to get a better idea of where his shots are taking him. A fructosamine test only gives an average value it does not tell what is happening on a daily basis.

 

Don't have any answers but sorry to read this. May you get some direction and relief from these issues.

My girl calmed in the new home. She is not yet regulated and on a high dose. I think the territory issues were lost. Something I did not forsee but there has not been any more squabbles here. Don't think you want to move but it shows the complexity of the health issues and the behavior.

 

Just sending you a little support, Jenny. It all sounds very difficult.

If you haven't tried the Feliway plug-ins yet, I would try that. I found the spray was useless, but the plug-ins did help.

By the way, I know you said your DH is supposed to get the mid-cycle checks. SLGS calls for doing a curve once a week. If no one can get mid-cycle checks, then I'd really want a curve so you have an idea of what the dose is doing.

Good luck!

 

Did you only put the Rescue Remedy in the water? or wet food? I heard others put a drop and rubbed it into their fur. I have only put it on their fur and it seemed to calm. When I used another homeopathic in the water (Good Cat), I did not really find it made a difference. Since you have it, it may last longer on the fur.

 

I feed the Rescue Remedy to my cats by putting down one bite of food with the RR first, then giving them the rest of their food. Punkin took an entire dropperful of RR, Anya just got a drop. I started with a drop on the paw for each cat, then increased the amount until I felt it was effective.