cat not responding to vetsulin

Callie was diagnosed as being diabetic two months ago. Started on vetsulin right away. Using u40 syringes she was dosed at 2 units every twelve hours. It hasn't made any difference at all. Over the last few weeks the dose has been raised with still no difference at all. We are now dosing 7 units every twelve hours. BG still 487- 613 at each reading.

She was changed over to only wet food. She is starving continually. She drinks incredible amounts of water. I use Scoop Away litter, 5 inches in box. Overnight a lake forms on top. Going through a 14 lb box A DAY. This month it cost $216 , not including vet, for litter, food, insulin and syringes. I can't do that. My total income is quite a bit under $1000 a month. I am on disability due to severe spine disease I was born with. I had wished to use lantus as it doesn't cost me anything, but vet said vetsulin worked better in cats.

I can't afford $200 a month for her, I really just can't. Ive had to cut way back on animals do to huge life changes, and my health. Even so I kept all my animals when I divorced but as each has passed of old age I have not replaced them. Still loving and caring for a horse, and donkey in their 20's. One Dobe, Callie, and an eastern cottontail. Does anyone have any idea why Callie is not responding to the vetsulin and/or any other advice? Thank you.

 

Can you post some recent BGs including BG before shot and then periodically between shots? That info is needed to help you.
Most of us here test or cats blood glucose at home using a human meter. We test before each shot and periodically between shots. We record our reading and other info in a spreadsheet. See:http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...te-a-ss-and-link-it-in-your-signature.130337/

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/shortcut-shopping-list-all-8-or-less-updated.117688/

Here is a link to home testing blood sugarshttp://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/hometesting-links-and-tips.287/

 

I have never used Vetsulin, but most members on here who have used it find it to be a harsher insulin...fairly fast acting and usually can cause bigger drops. The fact that it is not working is disturbing. First would be to make sure that it is being injected properly. As a diabetic I am sure you know what you are doing, but sometimes different injection areas work better for some cats. I find the abdomen or flank seems to be better for my kitty than the scruff. Also, just to rule out all possibilities, has it been stored properly and do you gently roll it before drawing up the shot?

I see Larry posted while I was typing this. Putting up some numbers as to how many units given and glucose readings would give a clearer picture. Setting up a spreadsheet as he suggested makes it easier for all members to look at the patterns.

Are you home testing? If so are you using a human meter or a pet meter. The information and protocols on this forum are given using human meter numbers. That is also very important especially with faster acting insulins such as Vetsulin.

Lantus and Levemir are both human insulins that are being widely used for cats and show very good results. Your vet does not seem to be up to date on current diabetes treatments for cats.

 

I used to work for two different sm animal vets. I am very certain of the insulin storage, mixing and injecting. I do use her flank skin. I have 5 test strips to use per week. Otherwise I don't have enough for me. I truly can not obtain more. I test her three hours after I inject her. She gets one can to eat while im injecting and when testing. She doesnt even flinch. She demands 6 cans a day. Vet thinks too much. Its either that or she has to be caged. She has caused me to fall several times with her entwining herself around my legs. I have no feeling of right foot at all. I want to do the best I can do for her within my limits. She catches and eats three red squirrels each day. Now we finally have snow so that has more or less stopped for now but she sure eats that many three seasons of the yr. Seems to also have a real liking for these damn huge trantula like, wolf spiders. Horrible things they are but she pounces upon them. Not sure what happens next as I have to leave. But there are never any parts to be seen. She eats every part of the squirrels and mice too. Everything. Starts at tip of nose and crunches her way to the tip of its tail. The third in a day generally proves to be a tad much and that one comes back up, still plenty identifiable. But being meat I figure that is fine, correct?

BG. 1/13. 537
1/15. 487
1/17. 524
1/18. 613 cat given can food 5 am every day. Given 2nd can between 8 and 9 am while I inject and test.

 

Sorry, yes human meter. I share mine. It is a One Touch.

 

The One Touch is a good meter but the strips are expensive..
On what you think would be a representative day take a BG before shot, then at 2 hours then at 5 hour and last before next shot . Better would be before shots, +2, +4 and +6 and before next shot

 

OK sorry for going through the basics, but it is always good to get that out of the way

Have you had your kitty tested for hyperthyroidism? The ravenous appetite is one of the signs. With the number of squirrels she is eating PLUS the food is a tremendous amount of overall food.

I am putting a link to your first posting:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/hey-there.151179/

This explains your background and the point that you are not in any major centers. With money being an issue it would definitely be more beneficial to be using Lantus since that is what you are using for yourself. Since the vetsulin does not show much promise your vet should definitely be open to changing to Lantus. There are many studies that show Lantus is a good insulin for diabetic cats. If you could save money on the insulin then you would have a bit extra to be able to do extra testing.

 

Here is one article you could show your vet on the benefits of using Lantus:

http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.co...d-diabetic-cats-may-increase-likelihood-remis

 

Also if the numbers you posted are being done 3 hours after injection, then the Vetsulin is definitely not doing what you need.

 

I will do that tomorrow. It will only leave me with one more strip for the week though.

 

There is a group called DCIN (Diabetic Cats in Need) that can often help out with costs in treating diabetic cats when the caregiver cannot afford it. I will try to find the contact name for you.

 

Yes I know that but we need to see what is happening with BG over the course of a typical day.

 

Larry ...Cathy said in her earlier post that she is using some of her own test strips...she is also diabetic...and cannot afford to use more than 5 a week for Callie. I have posted on Health to ask for contact information for DCIN. Also if her vet changes to Lantus then she can use some of her own insulin for Callie to help with costs. She is in a remote location and money is an issue.

My post for DCIN information:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/need-contact-information-for-dcin.151187/

Thanks

 

She is a large cat but yes, she sure is ravenous. She is 6 yrs old. Not so sure she was tested for that. Did do bun ,creatinine , bg. Isnt she a little young for hyperthyroidism? Or not? My last cat had that but she was 19. Race around house all night long.

It would be wonderful to be using the lantus. It wouldnt make extra money for strips here though. I think I am hesitant maybe in saying just how poor I am. I am not able to eat anywhere near correct myself. I go without, my animals never due. I feed my horse and donkey triple crown senior. Callie was getting a blue buffalo formula before changing to all wet. Merrick for my dobe. But there just isn't anything more that can be cut away from me. I didnt have damn heat this yr till 12/6. I have to try to help her best I can without any more spending. Jeez, I feel terrible. Maybe I should try to find someone who can do better by her. Thing is, there are many who CAN. Just not many who WILL. Her former owner doesn't believe in doing things like that for cats, he said. I said yah, like feeding them better?

 

Will do tomorrow and post back when all done.

 

Since Callie had bun/creatinine levels done and there were no reports of kidney problems you can use a cheaper food such as Friskies pate. If you can get it in the larger cans that could possibly save you some money. With the amount of critters that Callie is eating she almost shouldn't need other food. Hyperthyroidism is possible at any age. Unfortunately this would involve a separate test that would have to be sent to an outside lab and that will involve an extra cost. If you could use the Lantus for Callie then you would be able to save on the cost of Vetsulin and perhaps get more strips. Many of the people here, in the US, use Relion meter and strips which is much cheaper than some of the other human meters. Just another idea to save money.

 

Oh I know, huh, absolutely nothing. I was interested in starting this new batch, different exp date, just in off chance that batch had some issue. But now third vial same effect, none.

Vet knows me well and does not care which insulin I choose. Just said in her opinion, that vetsulin was best. I will share that link. It was only 20 yrs ago it was impossible to even find a vet in the area. I am not surprised she may not be up to date on diabetes. I still can't get them to come to reason that cda is a very real condition in dogs of mutant colors such as my blue dobe. When I mention that they only need to examine the hair shaft under the microscope to see the abnormal clumping of melanin I get eye rolls. I know lantus, being u 100, would require different dosing but unsure what. Not been having much luck. Tending iv too for month. Got horse with lyme on iv oxytet. Cant imagine the cost if I wasn't able to do a lot myself.

 

I know that. It better to use a weeks worth of strips in one day so we can see what is going one.

 

Keep hitting wrong button. Sorry. I may have confused you. She is now eating friskies cans. Six a day. Before switching to wet she got blue buffalo.

 

I'd switch to the lantus as soon as possible....You can save money if you can get to a WalMart and get a Relion Prime meter (about $15) and the strips are only $9 for 50. The Prime meter can sometimes be a little wonky, but you can't beat the price of the strips. The Relion Confirm or Micro are better, but the strips are $35.88 per 100 (which is still probably a lot cheaper than the One Touch)

Lantus is a U100 insulin, so requires U100 insulin syringes....again, Walmart has 3/10cc, 30 or 31 gauge syringes for $12.58 for a box of 100....and they come with half unit markings (which is important for dose increases/decreases that are done in .25 unit increments)

We have a very active Lantus forum here and lots of experienced members who use it who can guide you on how to use Lantus. There's years of real life experience to share with you.....most vets will only have a handful of diabetic cats in their career....the people here do nothing but deal with feline diabetes so have learned what works best. A lot of us don't even discuss our diabetic cats with our vets much anymore. When we go to the vet, she asks me how much insulin China is on and how her numbers are and that's the end of the discussion

 

There's contact information for DCIN's "Compassionate Assistance Program (CAP)" listed in the Financial Help Links.

ETA: Just a reminder...
Any and all fundraising efforts by or for individuals or groups must be approved
by our Administrator, Robert and Echo, prior to posting on the FDMB.

 

OK sorry..I wasn't sure if you saw that Cathy is having financial problems

 

@Cathy Morse - Hi Cathy! Contact amy @ dcin.info (remove spaces) - they can help you care for your baby! The link Jill gave you above works too. They're a wonderful organization dedicated to helping those of us that need help caring for our 'extra sweet' babies.

 

we started on vetsulin--it is less expensive but in the long run you will spend more … I am so glad we switched to lantus not only because it is long lasting (vetsuin is made for dogs) also my cat felt awful and depressed on vetsulin. I felt like I was "chasing my tail" with vetsulin. Numbers would drop but rose again quick-if I wasn't testing I would have missed knowing about the drop- I hope things get better for you!

 

Hi Cathy,

It certainly sounds like Vetsulin is not working for your kitty. Diabetic Cats in Need has an assistance program http://fdmb-cin.blogspot.com/p/compassionate-assistance-program.html
Please email me with any questions at jenna@dcin.info

If your vet is willing to write the Rx for Lantus, we're happy to help you obtain it. We can also send you a meter strips just for Callie so you can test her more often which will give a better picture of what's happening.

It's very possible that she's eating so much because she is being given too much insulin or if she is truly a high-dose kitty, she may have something else going on.

 

I've been in a similar situation. It's really, really tough and I truly feel for you.

I'm glad that you posted and that other members have given you info about DCIN.


Mogs
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Exactly the same experience I had with Saoirse.

.

 

Hello Cathy. Do you have a Walmart somewhat near you? If so, you can get the least expensive diabetic supplies from there as Chris indicated above.

Merlin, in his memory, would like to offer his Micro meter with 100 strips and a box of U100's to Callie. The only thing is that a box of 100 strips cost $35 as opposed to the Prime meter test strips are $9. Probably in the long run, buying a Prime meter with the cheaper strips would be better but just wanted to offer this to you if you want.

 

Bless your sweet heart Cindy @Merlin. The $9 is for 50 strips. This is a good Meter Cathy....

 

Callie has been this hungry since I got her. Previous owners have no info. Not sure what she ate, drank or pee'd. She has only been on insulin for two months. I believe the hunger to be from the diabetes.

I do not go anywhere. I live in tremendous pain. For 15 yrs ive been on huge(160 mg) doses of methadone for pain , plus 30 mg ir morphine throughout the day. Riding in cars is way too much. Only time I leave here is for dr three times a yr. And this yr I even made it to daughters wedding. Closest stores are 22 miles away except for gas station which is 9. With no car available I have to hire every trip anywhere. Walmart is $30. I can not pay to go anywhere this month. Already got my supplies for the month.

Why would a prescription be needed? Alaska is the only state where one is required and even there it is up to the individual pharmacy. I can not leave my vet with the feeling I may be doubting her. She is the only small animal vet I can go to without money. I do like her and she has done a lot for me. I won't need lantus anyhow. I have plenty to share with callie. I do get the pens .But it is very easy to draw into a syringe from the pen. All I would need is needles. Im sure the nice ppl who offer assistance will want income verification. I think I can figure out how to scan and send my this yrs 1099 if so. It says $4,884, I just looked it up this morning. Cant find one for ssi though, but it is a little less than the ss one. Does it sound like id qualify?

This offer of help is so very nice. I sure dont want them to pay for any more than I absolutely have to have. No need of them paying for lantus when I have enough to share.

Someone said here that vetsulin is only for dogs. The maker(merck), says it is for both dogs and cats. I trust merck even though maybe vetsulin isn't best. For many yrs I worked for abs inseminating cattle. Merck is always available and very helpful with the use of all their products I have found.

Sorry to cover everyones posts all together. I seem to be having issues with replying to individual posts.

I am working on gathering callies numbers today. Will post back later. Time to start lugging hot water out to horses. 10 below here this fine morning. Thanks to all trying to help us. It is very much appreciated.

 

((((((((Cathy))))))))

 

Hi Cathy,

Are you in Canada? It's only Canada that doesn't require prescriptions for non-Novolin/Humulin insulin.

Yes, you definitely qualify. Please fill out the application I posted earlier so we can send you a meter and syringes. Sharing Lantus will be better than using the Vetsulin. Even though Merck has said it's good for dogs and cats, dogs and cats metabolize insulin VERY differently and there are dozens of studies that put Lantus, Levemir, Prozinc and PZI well above Humulin, Novolin and Vetsulin for cats.

 

You will think me a lunatic for sure. The chart I was referring to is from the damn 70's. Absolutely you are correct, all modern insulins need scripts. My mom was a rn who owned / operated her own nursing home. I grew up there and later worked there. Why I still have all that stuff still, and know right where it is, I truly can not say. But it be high time I clean it out. Ha ha very very sorry. Ill surely be more careful.
Canada? About three miles "as the crow flies", 14 miles to drive. I did grow up in a border town. Still not far. Many drugs in canada don't require scripts. Some that don't should. Huge price differences on many as well.

 

That's a piece of history! There might be a medical museum or some collector that might want stuff like that.

 

HUGS and HUGS Cathy! Please let DCIN help you and your sweet baby - it's 'Cat Mama's' like you that they were formed to help. One's wanting to and willing to treat their 'extra sweet' babies but just don't have the funds. You've already got a huge leg up on many of us when we arrived - you understand diabetes and it's treatment. Most vets, especially small town vets, don't have time to keep up with details on every pet illness and product out there. They have to treat all illnesses. They get a few hours of training on diabetes in animals, mostly dogs. My vet is the same way - he prescribes Novolin NPH for any diabetic animals. He and I agree to disagree on feline diabetes treatment, he writes my script for Levemir when I ask him but other than that and regular bloodwork, I treat the diabetic part.

Testing is a critical part of treatment - they can't tell us when things are happening, the only way we can tell is by testing. You need enough test strips available to test when needed. You don't need to have to use yours when you need those to keep YOU safe!

HUGS again Cathy! I'm SO glad you stumbled across this site....

 

((HUGS)) Cathy. You have a heart of gold to give so much to all the animals that need help even though it is so difficult for you physically and financially. Please let DCIN help you to help Callie. If you can use your Lantus for her, that is wonderful. Please, as kindly as possible, talk to your vet about using Lantus for Callie. There are many scientific studies done in the last number of years that show Lantus is a GOOD insulin for diabetic kitties. It really appears that the Vetsulin is not working for Callie. Other members have used Vetsulin and some had decent results, but it is not always the first or best choice for insulin with kitties and Callie appears to be one that it doesn't work for. You are doing several tests on Callie's glucose levels today so that really should paint a better picture of how it is working..or not working. If the test results you do today do not show proper ranges, then unless Callie has other conditions that would make her a high dose kitty ( IAA, Acromegaly, Hyperthyroid or Cushing's) a change of insulin is in her best interests.

If you can change to Lantus, hopefully with your vet's permission, then DCIN could help with the syringes and test strips. Home testing on a regular basis would be so beneficial to see how Callie does with whatever insulin works for her and DCIN and other members here are willing to help you out.

You won't give up on your animals and the other animal lovers on this forum won't give up on you.

 

Indeed it is from the diabetes. As you know, Little Callie's cells aren't able to get the energy they need to properly make use of the food she's eating.

Based on what I've learned since Saoirse was diagnosed in June 2014, Vetsulin was originally developed for canine diabetics. It's actually sold under the brand name 'Caninsulin' in the UK. It has been approved in the European Union for treatment of feline diabetics as well. Indeed, in the UK Caninsulin/Vetsulin is the insulin that must be prescribed first for cats as well as dogs. If it can be shown that Caninsulin doesn't work for a cat the treating vet can then prescribe different insulins (e.g. Lantus, Prozinc).

Cats metabolize insulin faster than dogs (and humans) so a dose of Caninsulin typically wears off well before the 12 hours is up. This may leave the cat in higher numbers for a fair number of hours each day. In general, many cats tend to do better when treated with longer-acting insulins like Lantus. All that said, with the right dosing some cats do really well on Caninsulin/Vetsulin and may even go into diabetic remission. It's very much a case of the right insulin being the one that works for the cat.

My cat, Saoirse, was initially treated with Caninsulin. It kept her blood glucose levels down for only 3-6 hours out of each 12-hour cycle, then her numbers would go right back up again. I was able see the full effect because I was home testing. Before I got my meter I had to rely on secondary monitoring to get an idea of whether the insulin was working. I did notice that almost immediately after start of treatment with Caninsulin she stopped being ravenously hungry fairly quickly. It is difficult to know what Callie's hunger may be telling you. Of course she will be hungry if her blood glucose is too high, but there is no guarantee that some of the hunger could be coming from the Vetsulin taking her a bit low for part of the cycle. Tricky. Fingers and paws crossed when the testing supplies get sorted you'll get a much better picture of how Callie is responding to the Vetsulin. Hopefully you'll then be able to get her better regulated and things will brighten up a little for both of you.

I think you are a truly inspiring woman.



Mogs
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Cathy, in your earlier post you said your vet didn't care which insulin you used but they preferred Vetsulin. If I read that correctly how about starting the Lantus since you have it and want to use it?

 

I did do what you asked. Just got power back on from storm yesterday, so am just now replying. At 5:30 am her bg was 463. At 5:35 she got 7u of vetsulin. 3 hrs later bg was 346. At five hrs 336. At 7hrs 352 and at 9 hrs 358. The first one I couldn't get at two hrs as my outdoor chores took much longer than usual and I didn't get back in in time. Thank you so much.- cathy

 

That is great that you got the curve for Callie. It shows that the Vetsulin is not doing what it is supposed to. Since you started at 2 units/shot and have worked up to 7 units/shot (which to me see rather high with no results) , there are two possibilities. The dose could be too high, (you may have missed the optimal dose) which is hard to tell with only the odd test being done periodically OR Vetsulin might be the wrong insulin for Callie. So my thoughts are there are 2 approaches. If you could take advantage of the offers made to you for testing supplies, you could do more regular daily tests using the Vetsulin OR you could convince your vet to be on board with using the Lantus. Whichever way you choose to go regular testing, at a minimum before each shot and at midcycle, is important, so taking up on the offers for help with the test strips would be a definite need.

I am sure others will weigh in on this soon, so let's see what the general consensus is.

 

Curve:
AMPS 463 7 units Vetsulin
+3 346
+7 336
+9 358

Since yo are seeing over a 100 point drip I do not consider that the dose is too high. Callie may be a high-dose cat. I would change insulins when you run out of the existing via of vetsulin and see if that helps. Lantus would be good to try.
In the meantime I would not hesitate in creasing dose to 8 units vetsulin.

 

Larry:

Since I have no experience with Vetsulin I may be off base here but I thought I would express a few concerns.

Cathy did not post when or how much she fed Callie. Is it possible the AMPS may have been food influenced?

As Cathy has stated she is in dire financial straits and can not do any more testing for this week for Callie. If she raises the dose and can not test is that safe?

Again because of financial restraints Cathy cannot afford to have extra testing done for high dose conditions, so even if that is a possibility can we just assume this is the case?

My thoughts are that the most pressing thing right now is to take advantage of one of the offers for more testing strips so that any dose increases can be monitored closely. She does not have a car and is a distance from the nearest town and if Callie were to have a hypo episode it could be very concerning.

Again, I may be out in left field with my thinking but these were just concerns that came to mind.

 

Based on the data and if Callie eats consistently I say 8 units is fine. I would not raise further without more data.
I would try another type of insulin and start at 1 unit and do a curve in abut 5 days and see what happens.

 

Thanks for the response Larry. As I said I am not familiar with Vetsulin. However it is imperative that Cathy take advantage of the offers for testing supplies, regardless of which insulin she ends up with. Without testing it is basically shooting blind.

 

Great job getting the curve done, Cathy.

Assuming that the AMPS test wasn't food influenced, it looks like Callie may be getting good duration for Vetsulin (in lowered range for 6 hours between +3 and +9) but it's just not lowering the BG levels sufficiently.

My two penn'orth. Other members may have a different take.


Mogs
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Hi Cathy,

Just checking in to see how you and Callie are getting on.


Mogs
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vetsulin for most drops fast and low and raises quicker than most in my experience--my kitty was very depressed on vetsulin (it was made for dogs / different metabolism) it is a bit of a harsh insulin for felines although some do tolerate it.
That being said every cat is different --
Any update on Callie?

 

Been quite sick. Callie better. Will update couple days.just starting to feel a bit better. Thank you.

 

I'm relieved to hear from you, Cathy; I was worried about you. Thank you for letting me know how things are.

With all that you already have on your plate I'm sorry to hear you've been so poorly, Cathy, but I'm glad you're starting to recover. I am heartened to hear that Callie's improving and I hope that that will give you a little spiritual boost.

Will keep you both in my thoughts.


Mogs
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Hi
Callie bit me. Badly infected hand. Schools last week in area had hundreds of absences. Some norovirus they figure. Of course I had to get that. Couldnt much use right hand / arm so had to do all lugging with left. Left side not used to that. Screwed around with my discs, making almost impossible to move. Not been fun at all. Its good im so strong and stubborn I guess although im getting sick of being the tough one, I really am.

Callie. Im going to be honest. Her glucose has not been checked since the whole bite thing. I cant do that one handed, I tried. She has not missed any injections. I can manage that. I took the advice of raising her to 8 units and watched her closely for a day or so. I immediately saw a marked improvement. Now this first thing hopefully one of you have an explanation for... Since early summer every time that cat takes a crap in litterbox it is just horrid. You can be in the cellar, and you know right away she's upstairs using the box.ive had many many cats. Never did one stink like this. Done, all gone. No bad permeating stench at all. Happened first day. Day two I thought maybe there was less pee. Next day I KNEW there was less. I do not know how many days. They've all run together lately. But it was the day after someone suggested it though.

Going to do another curve this next week. Try for monday. Had to wait for 1st. Does anyone know of any biteproof gloves that still give the dexterity you need? Id love to know. Dr's do not like diabetics getting bit by cats especially. You know, that old pasteurella virus and all. Ive been told to rehome cat. Ive been told a lot of stuff over the yrs, starting with, horses have to go. That was 1993. Don't worry, she's staying. If I obtain an animal, it stays, for life. If I listened to everything drs say I would have no life.

When I find out just what I will need for sure I would love to have a little help with her. I do not want to take something that I don't end up needing or someone else needs more. I am very interested in changing her to my lantus when this vetsulin is gone. I have a five pen box that I just threw out as it was three months expired. That's awful, id rather share it with her. Of course she won't use much of it up.

I appreciate all you ppl thoughts and advice. I will let you know results of this next curve. I sure hope she's okay with it. She has never done that before. But ive never asked it of her more than once in a day either, she felt it a bit much, I guess. Cathy

 

Whenever I get scratched or bitten, I immediately wash my wounds with hydrogen peroxide, though I mix my own to 6%, most of the store-bought varieties are 3%. Tara's vet thinks chlorhexidine is better for the same purpose. Either one seems to eliminate a terrible swelling reaction.

Tara was initially put on vetsulin, but it was changed to PZI or Prozinc after 2 weeks, and it clearly worked a lot better at the same dose to reduce blood glucose.

 

I have curve results on callie at the 8u level. 8am before shot- 476, 10am 365, 12pm 271, 2pm 259, 5pm270, and 8:30pm right before shot 497. She is now peeing like a normal cat. No horrible smell to feces. Still seems to be high before next shot. Maybe try not feeding her for the last four hrs before shot?

She needs to move to lantus this weekend. Waiting for vet to call back with appropriate dose. Someone suggested 1u here. U100 insulin is 2.5 stronger than u40, so I understand it would be much less an amount but shouldnt it be more than 1?

 

Just heard from sheryl my vet. She suggests starting at 2u of lantus and keep track to see if her peeing increases as the lantus dose is a little less than the vetsulin at 8u. I will test her after starting the new dose so I know soon if it will be adequate or needs to be increased.

I asked about the overlap as lantus lasts longer, has a longer half life, and she said with h e r numbers rising high before her next dose may indicate the overl a p being a plus.

Asked about using the pens and pen needle. They a re 5mm x 31g. She said she would recommend a little longer than that, which is 3/16, but that she was confident I could make it work. I will talk to her again on tuesday.

 

Most use the pens but draw up a syringe. Pens only allow full unit increases and with cats we tend to increase in half or quarter increases.

 

Using the lantus, I will likely do half unit increases, if I need to increase. Until I know we need an increase

 

Im going to use the pen. Ive spoke with several who do. Ive heard some say the small one unit doses don't measure accurately. I do not believe that at all. I use one unit of novalog quite often for myself, as im very sensitive to it, and can attest to it d o ing it's job. But raising doses yes, I will do it in half u increments. Vet also had explanation for the stench of her feces and its disappearance, but I didnt quite catch it all. All I got was the word cell was in it somewhere. Vet was calling back from a convention and it got noisy there toward end. I will ask tuesday. She was happy to hear we've finally reached a dose that seems to be having an effect. Been trying since sept I think.

 

Six cans of food a day.. What about a borderline thyroid issue? It's possible that what might be a negligible difference in most cats makes a big difference in Callie. I would have that rechecked?

 

It was tested. Next time we have an appt I will want to check to see if there could be something like cushings or iaa going on too. That will not be for a while though. We have to be satisfied for now in the excellent news that we are making progress with her numbers. I do realize she is a high dose cat and that there may be reasons for that.

I know ppl here seemed , I don't know, upset with me maybe, as I did not jump right on ppls offers of meters and whatnot. Maybe thats why everyone disappeared? Who knows. But it was said my onetouch meter was a very good one, so why would I want another. I just needed a few extra strips. That has been solved. I just got 200 for $10. Im seeing this as lasting a very long time.

We won't be testing daily. A few curves a year. Close monitoring when doing changes, otherwise a couple times a week, three hours after an injection and before the next. I know ppl here do not find that sufficient. It is what I can do. I am very much interested in doing what I can do for her but at this point her care is better than mine. I do manage to keep my a1c pretty darn good without micromanaging and am hoping for the same with callie. This is what im a ble to do for her. The cat would be dead by now where she was. She was fed free choice dry food. She traveled around the village all day e a ting here and there. The whole village was loving her to literal death. As a young cat she came down with what the owner described as distemper. Said after a few days she start e d walking around again but acted drunk. Never took her to vet. That is what care in the area is, that is normal for these ppl. When I had my duck operated on for bumblefoot, they put the darn duck on front page of local paper strapped down and on gas machine. Ppl thought I was crazy putting $150into a duck. That was 1981.I wish ppl here did feel their animals deserve medical care and the best diet they can afford but they dont. And there's always loads who need rescueing. Sorry about being so wordy. I dont often see/ speak to others and I get carried away.
Will start lantus in am.

 

You weren't being wordy, you were describing your reality. It is much different that many people could ever imagine (myself included). You do the best you can with the resources you have. It can be overwhelming and very hard to have to make "between a rock and a hard place" decisions. You are an awesome animal caretaker and the world needs me people like you to light the way, especially in places where animal care is in the Dark Ages. I have great respect for you. Do the best you can, but please let people help you too. It is a great gift to others to let them help you help the animals.
Pepper Cat Mom to 13 down from 18

 

I would have asked for help and truly appreciate the generous offers. I just wanted to know for sure just what I needed, that which I could not obtain myself, before I did. As poor as I am there are those out there worse off. Turns out im going to be able to pull it off on my own. Now another can be helped maybe.
Believe me,if someone was to happen by and offer to help me haul water and lug in wood this morning, I would surely take the help. Thermometer here says -27f here this morning with a "feels like", temp of -55. Even down in burlington it says -15, which doesn't happen often. Im really dreading it. Horses look happy enough. Just standing around outside their shed looking cozy in their new blankies they got this yr. Thanks to paypal credit. Time to go get at it. Sciatic both sides, flaring today, making me run late. Usually out there doing poop now.

Doing glucose testing throughout day today since she just started on lantus this morning. Post results tomorrow if I can.

 

Hi Cathy

I missed your post from yesterday but I am glad to see you and Callie are doing okay and you are going to try Lantus for your Callie. It may take a few days before you see proper results with the Lantus. since it is a depot insulin rather than the "in and out" type that Vetsulin is. Maybe Lantus can give a longer cycle of good numbers once you find the right dose.

I'm glad you were able to figure out the financial end on your own, but if times get tough DCIN can always help you out. That is what they do... bless their hearts!! No one on here ever gets upset with the decision furkid caregivers make. No matter what you decide to do your heart and intentions are only for the well-being of the creatures you take care of.

What an amazing person you are to do so much for all the creatures that need help, in spite of your own physical and financial limitations. It has been very cold here lately,,,starting to break today. We have been having temps in the -40 to -50 area with the wind chill. I am such a suck with cold weather and yet there you are out in the freezing cold, feeding your horses. Good thing the horse have their new blankets to help keep them warm.

I will check back later and see how the testing goes.

If you have any questions that come up today, you can post a new "thread" in the Lantus forum:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/lantus-glargine-levemir-detemir.9/

and just post a link to this thread so anyone reading can get some background. If you have question just use the "?" icon in the drop down box of the title. There are a lot of Lantus users there that can give you information and advice if you need and with the "?" icon you will usually get a pretty fast response depending on how many people are on.

Stay safe and warm

 

Thanks for your kind words. I am doing the curve today. I started yesterday but something happened where I was not able to continue. I have unexplained reactions to lantus a few times a yr which incapacitate me. Bg dropped to 32, and it scares me right to death. Dr, manufacturer, have no clue.it always happens within 1/2 hour of injecting which should not be possible they tell me. Still feel wiped out but plenty capable of doing curve. I really feel most of time as if large dark cloud envelops me. Report back later.

 

I hope you are doing okay. A hypo event like you had can be dangerous and very draining. Very strange that it should happen within 1/2 hour of injecting...as the Dr and manufacturer said that should not be possible due to the delayed reaction time. Very scary for you!

Sending lots of healing `power for both you and Callie.

In order to get more people seeing your post and offering advice you could post a new posting on the Lantus forum and put a copy of the link to this posting in as well to give some background:

Link to Lantus forum:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/lantus-glargine-levemir-detemir.9/

Good luck with your curve.

 

Hi!!
I do not give dosing advice .... there is a link that will help guide you on the appropriate starting dose of lantus-2 units can be a lot for many cats-
each cat is different and they need what they need.... My guy is on 1 unit and he is is a bog boy.... Hypo is very scary... glad you are testing
Hang in there....

 

Jayla it was not the kitty that had a hypo it was Cathy. She is also diabetic. Callie is just starting on Lantus after having been on Vetsulin.

 

oh goodness--I am sorry
need coffee!

 

I hear you!! I guess we are not used to hearing about people having a hypo episode in the posts here.

 

I find those spells terrifying, even more now that im alone. Before august id lived with someone for 21 yrs. It is so hard to guage when to call someone. Only called ambulance twice though. But the rn who was bringing the iv antibiotics 2x day for the cat bite said call below 50. Whatever.

Callie did not even try to bite. I do not know why she did that time. Im being as careful as I can. We started at 7am. Her bg was 435. Gave 2 lantus. 9am 404; 11am 344; 1 pm 403; 3pm 380, 5pm 332; 7pm 296. Since it still seemed to be going down I didnt dare give 2 last night and gave only one. But this a.m. at 5:30 it was 397.

Will be speaking with vet again today to check in.

 

Yes being alone means you have to react before your numbers get down too low. I think your nurse who suggested 50 as a warning number for you was actually being a bit conservative. Take care of yourself...all your critters need you

Your curve is looking pretty well what a Lantus curve for a kitty should look like. Although with kitties it is suggested to keep the morning and evening doses the same, since especially in the beginning it takes a while for the kitty's body to adjust to a different type of insulin. The vetsulin is more of an in and out insulin, while the Lantus...which is what you use for yourself...is more of a long acting depot insulin. I can see why you were hesitant about giving 2 units last night since you don't really know how Callie will respond to it. If you have enough test strips it would be good to do tests before the shot and then at least again around +3 hour and +6 hour. I know you are having to juggle the costs but if you can manage those tests it should give a good indication of how Lantus works with Callie. Since cat's metabolism is faster than people you can't really judge by how it works with you.

Good luck !!

 

I should have been more clear. If one hadn't known of the previous post, anyone would have thought it was the cat.

 

There are not many people on here with diabetic cats who are also diabetic themselves, and even with those ones I have never seen any of them mention getting a hypo themselves. As soon as people here see a low number they right away get concerned for the kitty. The interesting part is that you are well aware of how a kitty going into hypo numbers will feel and that is really good to know.

 

I have plenty of strips. Just got 200 for $10. Can get more whenever I need to. Yah, the first night she did get 2u. Last night iwas afraid it could drop and I wouldnt know. Ppl here will not like it but I am not testing this cat through the night. I get up very early and am in bed long before three hours after night shot. I am doing my best at extra testing since we are just changing insulins but she will not be tested daily once we establish a dose.

I did do quite a bit of reading at the link you sent. You guys have way different words for things than the terms I am used to. I believe if I read correctly that you use 'bounce' for somogyi effect? I am now able to understand much more of what you guys are saying after familiarizing myself with the terms you use.

For now im just going to stay here and continue to read over there. I think im fine here. Certainly not starting out without any knowledge of medicine or diabetes and I don't do so well amongst a large group. Life has made me very bitter. I very much tend to shy away and hide. I stay to myself and occupy any free time with my never ending mission to educate myself. What the hell I figure. Certainly not harming anyone.

 

Glad to see that you were able to get affordable strips Cathy!! Some people here will spend most of their time taking care of their kitties. You have other responsibilities and limitations, so if you can't or won't do the same that is perfectly fine. You do what you can. Just to throw in my 2 cents worth...if you could see your way to at least testing before each shot that would provide a safety factor in case Callie's pancreas decides to start working on its own. Your choice in the end though.

Bounce and somogyi are often used as meaning the same thing. There have been a few discussions here abut the difference, with differing opinions. Bouncing is generally when a cat drops very fast or hits much lower numbers than it is used to, which can cause the body to release stored glucogen since it perceives this as an emergency. When a cat has been in higher numbers for a long time, it takes a while before the body accepts the lower numbers without bouncing.

Educating yourself as much as you can about feline diabetes is the best you can do. Although you understand human diabetes, the approach with kitties is a bit different. I understand when you say life has made you bitter. I tend to be rather jaded about life myself and usually avoid groups and forums. Because I love my kitty I joined up, even though it is against my nature. We all do what we can for those we love.

 

Oh but there must be differences. These are the things im here to learn. I get a pounding heartbeat, a strong feeling of doom, sweat just pouring from everywhere, even fingers and toes. I get so shaky its hard to test. Can hardly speak and feel confused. Yes, im sure in callie I would notice changes which would immediately lead me to think low bg but I wouldnt see her drenched in sweat, right?

 

Very true since kitties don't sweat.. When my kitty gets into hypo numbers he gets VERY vocal about food...more so than usual...insistent and following me in a panic.... that is my first clue. Some kitties will become disoriented and stumble, but that usually will happen when the numbers are very low and getting more serious. Of course an emergency situation would be when a cat passes out, but that would require an ER and IV glucose.

 

I don't know if you have seen this post about hypos. This is the link to it:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-to-treat-hypos-they-can-kill-print-this-out.15887/

 

I can easily test before and have been. I think its important right now. I am doing it after as well. I may be able to test once during night. My nights are quite miserable and very painful. Thanks for understanding that it is not so much a matter of dont want to but what im able to. I appreciate that. It is easy to see that many here live for their cats. I do love callie and want to see her doing as well as we can get her. I am more a dog /horse person if I had to choose but very much enjoy cats and like to have one around. Callie is a bit different and includes me in things I wish not to be included in. I have woken to her darn rubbing me with her head stuff to find her doing it with a mouse in her mouth. She has brought several upstairs at night, jump up on bed and then let it loose once I notice her. Some of these things I could do without. Shes just full of personality and is the most agile 16 lb cat ive met.

 

You are doing what you are able to for Callie and your love for all living creatures is obvious.

I had to laugh about the mouse "present". That is just her way of telling you she loves you.

For now testing before shots and during the cycle should keep her safe. and give you information how she responds to the Lantus.

Good luck!!

 

Oh my, the food thing wouldn't signify anything different at all with callie. She does that continually all day and every time I get up at night too, even with high numbers.

A collaspe would not be good. Emergency er trips are not possible with no car. Nearest er is 60 milles. I do have a wonderful team of six horse vets who make it to my house in ten min when an emergency and if I called for a cat in need they would come. They know me well, like me and trust me. Theyve done my small animal vacs and pts animals for me before. I am capable of doing iv glucose. Will grab more supplies in case next time I see a vet. The large animal vets use my bathroom when in area and need one. I am always home. Mail lady does too.

 

It is good that you have a support system if needed. A kitty in a non-threatening hypo is treated the same way as a person. Sugar (karo, honey, maple syrup etc) in the food or on the gums followed by high carb foods and then retest 20 minutes later until the numbers come up and stay in a safe range.

A serious hypo requires IV glucose. I am sure you have the equipment and supplies there for yourself. With your distance from town with no vehicle and the costs of a vet visit this would be your first approach. You could ask your vet for the exact details on glucose amounts and monitoring.