? 4/13 Asia AMPS 173 Figuring out Adequan dose help

Discussion in 'Lantus / Levemir / Biosimilars' started by Stacy & Asia, Apr 13, 2018.

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  1. Stacy & Asia

    Stacy & Asia Well-Known Member

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    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/4-10-asia-amps-yucky.193938/

    Asia had a vet visit yesterday to follow up on post kidney infection blood work. Should have results tomorrow. As far as her wacky numbers go, vet couldn’t find anything out of sorts upon examination. I’m hoping I just lowered her dose too quickly and that is looking like a good possibility.

    Had her anal glands expressed, you know, since we were there anyway. Vet didn’t want to believe me that expressing her anal glands, no big deal, trying to look at her teeth, good luck with that...but that’s exactly how it went.

    Still at a dead end addressing her arthritis. Vet recommended some new product she had heard anecdotal reports of being really useful: Antinol. I looked it up, it’s green lipped muscles concentrated by some special patented process and omega 3, which I already give her. I didn’t see many great reviews for it and it sounds like nothing much different from, well, fish oil and green lipped muscles. I don’t recall why I didn’t use green lipped muscles when this all started, but I think it must have had something to do with kidneys as it was before diabetes. She wasn’t opposed to the Adequan but wanted me to try something like this first. I looked in to MSM and it had lots of good reviews about it...but I found something else that said it can cause heart issues as well. I ordered Cosequin instead and will give it go.

    I don’t want to accept that there is nothing to be done, this is a sad thing that happens: sometimes Toki will play with her and if Asia ends up on her back, she’s like turtle flipped over on her shell, she cannot get up on her own and she has the “halp me, hooman!” look of distress on her face. It’s only happened a few times, but that’s a few times too many. What if it happened when nobody was home? Also, I’m afraid the arthritis will make her hold in her poo, it is already difficult for her to hunch herself up to go, she often takes breaks in the litter box and then tries again. It’s sad to see. If Cosequin or Adequan or something works, despite it possibly having a little impact on her kidneys, I do think it’s worth it because the arthritis is affecting her quality of life and it doesn’t have to be this way.

    I told her I stopped giving fluids and that also the tachycardia stopped with it. That was convincing enough that she agreed with me no fluids for now. I suspect cardiologist to say no fluids for her too. Going to keep adding water to her food and monitor her USG at home with a refractometer which I will calibrate at the vets to make sure the results are similar. I might get some 250mL bags of lactated ringers if I can find them so that I can very occasionally give her fluids if she is particularly dehydrated and not waste a huge bag of fluids that will only keep for 10 days.

    Teeth were unremarkable, so that’s a good thing, but I know you can’t see what’s going on below the gum line, so I will always be concerned with them because of her past problems. She was not in favor of pulse antibiotics for teeth, I hope they remain unremarkable. She believes teeth infections stay localized, I told her that was absolutely not my experience and systemic infection is exact my concern.

    She laughed at the thought Asia could be hyperthyroid, I don’t want to say she called her fat, but she said she would be shocked if a cat looking like Asia does had hyperT. I’ve heard of cats that were not skinny having hyperthyroid, so it’s not enough to ease my mind about it. If the tT4 value is elevated this time, she will get the fT4.

    It’s time to do a heart echo. Vet was surprised her kidney values came down as bad as they were, so she wasn’t concerned with looking at her heart back then (I think she was quite surprised Asia bounced back from that). She said now it’s worth investigating as it’s better to start meds sooner than later. The cardio that goes to this practice and many of the others in the city is absolutely positively not going to let me be in the room with her. Back to this again. I have 2 ER options with cardiologists, if they won’t let me be in the room with her I have no options. Vet said their cardio is really fast and it would only take 7 minutes. Why does this have to be so complicated. At least they don’t want to sedate her!
     
  2. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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  3. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    My two cents: the arthritis and the limits it puts on her mobility is something I'd address with Adequan sooner than later. It's a risk/benefit wrt kidneys but quality of life is important. :bighug:
     
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  4. Amanda & Shmee

    Amanda & Shmee Well-Known Member

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    Vines for the bloodwork :bighug: , that is hard to hear about the arthritis, I cannot imagine having to deal with that on top of everything else. I hope you find something that works for her. PS - when do you sleep?!?! :eek:
     
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  5. Judy and Boomer

    Judy and Boomer Well-Known Member

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    Can a cat have glucosamine for arthritis?
     
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  6. Stacy & Asia

    Stacy & Asia Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it’s one of the ingredients in Cosequin for cats. Do you find it helpful?
     
  7. Bobbie And Bubba

    Bobbie And Bubba Well-Known Member

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    My heart hurt reading about Asia stuck on her back.......... All is all she is quite remarkable for her age. And she is so lucky that you are her advocate and are so hands on with her. You really know your baby! :bighug:

    How much of the omega 3 are you giving? I have read up to 500 mg a day for cats and arthritis. I give both mine omega 3 daily.
     
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  8. Kaori &Utyun

    Kaori &Utyun Member

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    Asia:bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug:
     
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  9. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    こんにちはカオリ! ここでお会いできてうれしいです。 :smuggrin:

    Hi Kaori! It's nice to see you here. :smuggrin:
     
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  10. Stacy & Asia

    Stacy & Asia Well-Known Member

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    How long did it take to see results with it? She wasn’t opposed, but wants me to try a natural supplement first. She also thought it was to be given IM and I told her I know lots of people that give it sub q at home and she has heard of doing that too.
     
  11. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I don't have Adequan experience with my cats. I'm more familiar with friends using it for their horses. I've given Teasel Cosequin for cystitis but it didn't really do much. I'm going by the members here who swear by Adequan (subQ): @jayla-n-Drevon @JanetNJ
     
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  12. Stacy & Asia

    Stacy & Asia Well-Known Member

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    I know, it’s really sad. I don’t think it has to be that way, even at 21.

    The omega 3 pet I give .75 mL as per dosage instructions for a cat of her weight mixed in with her pm +9 meal. So that’s a whole lot less than 500 mg. I will have to read up on that .
     
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  13. Tracey&Jones (GA)

    Tracey&Jones (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Arthritis is a real devil of a thing to have.

    :bighug::bighug::bighug:For Asia.
     
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  14. Stacy & Asia

    Stacy & Asia Well-Known Member

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    My old vet completely wrote it off as being worthless for cats. But like you said, I’ve heard a different story from members on this board. I don’t know why such a disparity. Maybe it’s not following a protocol to give it? Most people would have to trek to their vet to get the injections, and perhaps they miss appointments or come later than they should for some? Like allergy shots, they aren’t very useful if you don’t go get them regularly. I really can’t understand why so many vets don’t see similar results to what we see here.
     
  15. Bobbie And Bubba

    Bobbie And Bubba Well-Known Member

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    I'll try to see if I can find my source where I came up with the 500 mg for cats
     
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  16. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I think those two members I tagged give it at home as subQ injections. FWIW - in a general conversation I had with my vet a while back we talked about kitty arthritis and she brought up Adequan as a therapy. Vets - and human doctors - sometimes poo poo things that we learn for ourselves can help. And those professionals will disagree among themselves about various therapies. My stance is to learn as much as I can and then try it if it isn't laden with dangerous side effects.
     
  17. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Honestly if her arthritis is that bad them I don't think cosequine or dasuquin will do a lot, but you could give it in addition to adequan. I think you are eating your time with these other products. With adequan you will start to see more or improvement after the first 2-3 weeks, then better improvement after the loading dose of 4 weeks. The first 4 weeks it's shots twice a week, then maintenance dose of a shot every 3-4 weeks. For my cat u actually give it every week or she starts limping again. I may go to every two weeks when the warmer weather comes in. A testament to how it works is that my arthritic girl got to the top of her cat tree on her own this morning!


    Another member that is very familiar with both adequan and msm (which she sent me a sample of) is @jayla-n-Drevon
     
  18. Alicia & Maggie (GA)

    Alicia & Maggie (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Vines for sweet Asia. :bighug: You are a great mama for her!!:bighug:
     
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  19. jayla-n-Drevon

    jayla-n-Drevon Well-Known Member

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    Hi Hun,
    I am a big fan of adequan and recommend it with confidence. If given at intervals that work for each cat it is very effective with no side effects. Dasaquan is good but not so much for a diabetic... My 20 year old flys around the house .... he is not diabetic and gets adequan dasaquan and MSM which I also would highly recommend and I would be happy to send you a "sample" as the kind I get is the best I have ever seen as far as purity.

    https://www.theholistichorse.com/shop/animal-products/cats/su-per-msm-ultra-pure-powder-2/

    I put the MSM is capsules for them as it does have a bit of a taste they may not like.
    The company also has kelp and other products that may help and the staff is very customer friendly and will help you choose. They are also connected with a DVM.
    If you are interested in the green lipid I personally the Moxxor is one of the best and they are small gel caps.

    https://www.moxxor.com/product/

    PM me if you would like to try the MSM :cat:

    I think vets should be required to tell people about adequan as it greatly improve quality of life in my experience.
     
  20. Sean & Rufus

    Sean & Rufus Well-Known Member

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    My 2 cents, cosequin should be started before they have arthritis or with mild arthritis. I don't think it helps with moderate or worse arthritis. Rufus was jumping on the couch the day after his 1st Adequan injection. ECID though. And, I'm starting to wonder if the cosequin is giving Rufus his tummy aches. I've heard rumblings about it on IBD kitties FB.
     
  21. Stacy & Asia

    Stacy & Asia Well-Known Member

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    Neveeeeeeeer!!! :joyful: Okay, it only feels like that. I’m not the only one testing her. When you see every hour testing in a color that isn’t green, that’s because it isn’t me. :p

    I am the only one testing her at night, however, my sleep is severely impacted, I don’t call what I do sleeping, I take naps. :facepalm:
     
  22. Stacy & Asia

    Stacy & Asia Well-Known Member

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    I read that too about tummy aches. o_O
     
  23. Stacy & Asia

    Stacy & Asia Well-Known Member

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    @JanetNJ @jayla-n-Drevon

    Thank you so much. I guess since long term studies have not been done in cats, they get hung up to try it. I shared what you wrote with my vet and asked if I could just start the Adequan. She agreed and I could pick it up as soon as today if I wanted, but I will wait until tomorrow as I have to figure out dose.

    My vet said this and I said I would ask around try to figure out a good dose. I think I read somewhere that CKD cats have more conservative dosing with the loading doses, do you know anything about that? How do you calculate the dose? Asia is 10 pounds 7 ounces currently.

    Jayla, I have a whole bag of MSM from holistic horse. I didn’t start it because I read something contradictory about heart, wouldn’t you know I can’t find that reference at the moment when I need it. :rolleyes:
     
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  24. rhiannon and shadow (GA)

    rhiannon and shadow (GA) Well-Known Member

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    I too was using Adequan for Shadow.... I think it helped her a lot. Each time it was shot time with it, she would have such a wonderful deep sleep because her joints weren't aching as much. According to her IM vet, it wasn't helping her hip socket as there was no joint there anymore, but she had arthritis all over. Her spine, her front legs. It was proven on the xrays.
    She got 25 u every 3 weeks, for her every 4 weeks was too far apart.

    I previously tried dasuquin and it did diddly squat for her...

    I also can tell a story on a 12 year old golden retriever that a friend had who was almost lame. The dog could not walk, had a miserable time getting up off the ground and I told the owner about adequan. He hurried to the vet to give it a try as he was comtemplating letting
    him go. The only joy the dog had anymore was sitting next to it's owner and getting carried to the truck to go for a ride. The owner did that daily, rode around his ranch.... ( lol)
    He told his vet about it, got some immediately, and the dog is back to normal now. He can walk, and get up and has more time to go.

    It's just like all medications, you have to try to find out if it's worth it.

    I ask my rheumatologist why he wants to give me all this possible horrible side effects, and his answer was that if a patient comes in
    to complain about pains they want relieved, then he will offer something even with worse side effects....
    it becomes a quality of life issue, and doctors gamble that something else will take you out before your liver fails, or whatever the detrimental effect is.
     
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  25. Sean & Rufus

    Sean & Rufus Well-Known Member

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    Rufus is 21.5 pounds and gets .5ml
     
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  26. Chubba (GA)

    Chubba (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Apr 30, 2017
    My civvie started adequin a few months ago. It is a game changer for her. She gets in IM not subq. We did it twice a week for 2 weeks, then once a week for 2 weeks. Now monthly. I think we cut back to quickly and would like to talk to the vet about giving it more frequently. I swear we saw improvement after just one shot. She gets 0.22 (not sure on label) and she is around 12 pounds.
     
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  27. Stacy & Asia

    Stacy & Asia Well-Known Member

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    I forgot to quote my vet!

     
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  28. Amy&TrixieCat

    Amy&TrixieCat Well-Known Member

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    I am also a huge fan of Adequan..it significantly helped our civvie, Mario, who was on it for nearly 2 years, and it also help Trixie in her last several months. We're about to start it with our civvie, Noah, too. With Mario and Trix, I only saw positives, but that's not to say some kitties can't have issues.

    I don't know the dosing formula, though - my vet always told me what to shoot. We always did it SubQ and it worked perfectly. Noah is only in the 8lb range, and she told us to shoot .2ml.
     
  29. Stacy & Asia

    Stacy & Asia Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, Amy. Trixie was CKD as well, do you recall what dose you gave her, how much did she weigh? And do you recall if there was any noticeable impact on her kidneys, from dehydration or behavior to lab values?
     
  30. PussCatPrince - GA

    PussCatPrince - GA Well-Known Member

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    Don't wish to highjack @Stacy & Asia .
    Can someone please say if this Adequan is OK for a cat with CKD ?
    Or perhaps what poss. side effects are.
    I am trying to see if this med is allowed here in NZ. If it is I am in with a long shot of perhaps getting this for Ty if I can make it convincing enough.
     
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  31. Sean & Rufus

    Sean & Rufus Well-Known Member

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    Rufus started Adequan about a month ago, and Atopica 2.5 weeks ago. His bun increased from 31 to 45 and his creatinine form 1.4 to 2.2. I found that the Atopica can raise kidney numbers but haven't seen any info about Adequan doing it.
     
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  32. Stacy & Asia

    Stacy & Asia Well-Known Member

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    I don’t know that it’s “okay” per se, but it’s a risk/reward decision. If it works for Asia, sadly, I would trade a little kidney for more mobility and better quality of life. If it doesn’t work well enough, I will stop it because it won’t be worth it.
     
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  33. Kathy and TiTi

    Kathy and TiTi Well-Known Member

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    Adequan really does work. If the cosequin doesn't help, can you insist on it? That's truly alarming about the turtle stasis.
    That vet does not sound up to date. It's too bad she laughed at you. Maybe she was having a rough day?

    Are the cardiologists Cornell or Ohio State U trained? I ask because I've had a cat at both universities, and they are adamant about seeing the animal sans human caretaker. I've no idea why. Have you asked the cardiologist in person about staying in the room? I would think that given Asia's age, and your skills, an exception could be made.


    Hugs
     
  34. PussCatPrince - GA

    PussCatPrince - GA Well-Known Member

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    Oddly or perhaps not so oddly given Ty's back leg/hip I have been trying to find out . This is about Pentosan. I believe this is same/similar.
    When CKD is in play it always seems best to err on the side of caution with dosing. So perhaps less than recommended here.

    Pentosan.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2018
  35. Stacy & Asia

    Stacy & Asia Well-Known Member

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    My vet is great, she did give me the Adequan rx today, she just wanted to try something less potent first and I decided I’ve already been down that road. She didn’t laugh at me, she was laughing at Asia the pudge bowling ball in reference to cats with a little extra are not hyperT. ;)

    Have I asked the cardiologist...no. He is somewhat of a diva, he refuses to even speak to the humans of pets. o_O It was made explicitly clear that he is uncompromising, temperamental but good at his job.
     
  36. Amy&TrixieCat

    Amy&TrixieCat Well-Known Member

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    Trix had pretty advanced kidney disease when we started Adequan - quite honestly, so much so that I can't saw for sure if the Adequan had an impact on her kidneys or not. And, she was only on it for a couple months. My big regret is that we didn't start her on it much sooner than we did. I believe her dose was about .15ml - she was tiny at about 7lbs when we started. Mario did have renal insufficiency when we started him on it - so not actual CKD, but his kidneys were borderline. Through the 2 years he was on it, his kidney values stayed stable.
     
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  37. LizzieInTexas

    LizzieInTexas Well-Known Member

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    Jul 25, 2016
    Not sure if you read Tanya's site or not so if you do just ignore :p

    https://www.felinecrf.org/treatments_general_health.htm#arthritis_treatments
    It does mention Green Lipped Mussels

    I tried Adequan with Gizmo but discontinued. Not sure if it was the Adequan or something else but his appy dropped considerably so I eliminate it. I think it did help with his arthritis. How much? Couldn't say it was a great improvement.
     
  38. Kathy and TiTi

    Kathy and TiTi Well-Known Member

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    Feb 12, 2016
    I think you mentioned that there were 2 cardiologist possibilities? Like you, I can't understand why they make it so hard. When my Freya had her echo, I was allowed to be with her. It made it easier for everyone. But it came about in a roundabout way. The Tech said I wouldn't be allowed in. When I was introduced to the cardiologist, I asked if I could be in the room with Freya, and she said, sure. The tech was a bit put out, but eh.
    Bengals do much better when their human is with them. I think all animals do better, but from what I've seen, Bengals are even more so.

    Again hugs. I've grown very fond of Asia.
     
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  39. Bronx's dad (GA)

    Bronx's dad (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Nov 30, 2016
    I've tried everything for Bronx's arthritis and so far the adequan is the only thing that seems to work well. He walks better with less of the spinal hunchback and moves faster. I also recently started bupe shots and that seems to help a bit too. Other things I am still using is cosequin, fish oil, CBD drops and turmeric "golden paste".
     
  40. jayla-n-Drevon

    jayla-n-Drevon Well-Known Member

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    Oct 11, 2015
    I have not heard any contraindications on the heart with MSM--I will email and ask as I am curious now. I will say I just did BW and my 20 year old who had a previous heart condition and gets the MSM has the BW of a 2 year old cat:cat: It is crazy considering the cardio told me he had 2 weeks about 2 years ago. He also had fd from the budesonide and has been in remission for a very long time. Did I mention early ckd since 11 and fluids until 17 when the heart thing happened but he is getting a little now again. He has good genes:smuggrin:

    The dose for adequan as per my vet is to round up --
    so Shadow would round up to 11 pounds X2 =22 and the dose would be 0.2.2 o a 1ml syringe.
    Some people use a insulin syringe and I think that would be 22 units but @Larry and Kitties is more educated with the insulin dosing.

    I never heard the need for conservative dosing for a diabetic.
     
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  41. jayla-n-Drevon

    jayla-n-Drevon Well-Known Member

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    Oct 11, 2015
    I have never seen negative side effects with CKD and adequan . I would be lost without it for my chubby diabetic it helps him so much:cat: I actually give a drop more than his dose and he gets weekly shots.
     
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  42. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Aug 2, 2016
    Stacy , you are absolutely correct ab hyperT symptoms ... when Elmo was first diagnosed hyperT 5 years ago he had hyper numbers and HYPO symptoms !!! Vet said it was only the second time in all her years that she had seen it . Your instincts are correct :)
     
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  43. JoyBee&Ravan

    JoyBee&Ravan Well-Known Member

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    Feb 17, 2018
    Has anyone tried Slippery Elm for Arthritis ?

    Slippery elm is said to relieve inflammation of virtually any mucous membrane and is used in the treatment of inflammatory conditions of the lungs (bronchitis, asthma), kidneys, bladder (cystitis, FLUTD symptoms), throat (tonsillitis) and joints (arthritis). (5)

    Sometimes the simple things work!
     
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  44. Wendy&Neko

    Wendy&Neko Senior Member Moderator

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    Feb 28, 2012
    Neko was on Cartrophen, what we use in Canada for arthritis. Similar but not exactly the same. Also used off label in cats. It helped Neko some, but I had amazing results with a civie. @PussCatPrince you may find Cartrophen available in NZ. It is in Oz.

    Alternatives that are more natural are hyaluronic acid (my brother takes it too), Hyalflex is a good brand. Duralactin really helped Neko. It's an anti inflammatory. But talk to the vet first as it's contraindicated in some cases, specifically high calcium. Acupuncture/acupressure really helped, as did the regular buprenorphine. Neko's arthritis was pretty bad, even I could feel it. So she needed pain relief. :(
     
  45. LuvinThisPig

    LuvinThisPig Well-Known Member

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    Dec 8, 2017
    I never really chime in here because everyone seems to have the basis covered. However, this discussion on Adequan is right up my alley! :p

    Pig is a Manx and has what is called, not so ironically, "Manx Syndrome". The best way to describe it is that it is the closest thing to feline spinal bifida. Owing to this, he was born with a wonky leg as I like to call it, but it is more like a leg that has never really gained any muscle tone. His little back left leg is thin like a stick and his back right leg is almost twice the size in girth. It never really caused any issues until he was about 6 years old. I noticed that on occasion he would favor it a bit more than the others. My vet said not to worry and that we would treat it as it got a little worse. I agreed with her in this as it was only very occasionally an issue as in he might have overplayed that day.

    About 2 years ago he really started to favor it, so much so that I had considered having him special fitted for a brace. I could visibly see his back elbow hyper extend in the wrong direction and he would always sleep with that leg directly underneath him and stretched straight out. I started him on Cosequin, because in my mind this was the best option. However, after discussing the brace with my vet she informed and directed me to a study (I wish I could remember where) that had just been released at a national vet conference on the long term effects of oral glucosamine and MSM supplements in cats. In reality, these results were less than inspiring. The study found that the effects of both on pain and joint maintenance were no better than a placebo. In essence, save your money on those!

    She then directed me to Adequan. I can personally attest to this being the single biggest thing in turning Pig's arthritis around. The first week I say nothing. The second week I saw nothing. The third week I thought I saw a difference, but was more convinced it was in my head. However, on the fourth week? The boy who was limping and struggling just to keep in joint in place was jumping on the desk and chasing toys again!! He was not nearly as sensitive about his hind quarters as he use to be! I have been giving it to him ever since and even the hyper extension has gretly improved. I actually give him weekly injections, rather than once every 2. I can also attest to its safety because my vet is one of those who are super cautious about any type of medications. In short, if it is not as safe as giving water then it is pulling teeth to get her to prescribe it. If she prescribed Adequan then I know it is incredibly safe. Now, as far as if it is safe with CKD I cannot say as I do not have experience, but I do not that it is in all other things very safe. And very effective!!

    Now, as far as the arthritis effecting bathroom habits, I would have to say that they absolutely do. Well, they do for Pig. This has been a struggle for him for a while. It just seems very uncomfortable for him to bend himself to poo and incredibly uncomfortable for him to squat and pee, even with the Adequan. I noticed that no matter how clean his boxes were he would always opt for going outside the box. This said to me that the box was uncomfortable. So, I went about finding solutions. 1) I started using Dr. Elsey's Senior litter formula because it is an incredibly fine grain so good on feets with neuropathy and made so that you can use a very small amount in the bottom of the box, meaning the sand would not shift and they would not slide. This litter made a world of difference for Pig, but I will say it has a LOT of dust so if there is an issue with the lungs or anything like that you may not want to give it a go. However, you can still decrease the amount of litter in the box if need be. 2) I started relying heavily upon puppy pads 3) I collect the cardboard flats that cans come in, like from the grocery store, and just set this near the box. I have to put things under them for when he pees, but for Pig, he will choose these over the litter any day. Both have the same height, side wise, the only thing I can think is that the cardboard provides more stability than the litter does. Then all I have to do is throw the flat away! Works great!

    I have rambled enough!! I am hopeful that Adequan will improve upon the turtle thing for Miss Asia! :bighug::bighug::bighug:
     
  46. Phoebes (GA)

    Phoebes (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2017
    This sounds genius, but can you elaborate? I'm confused where to put the cardboard. Does he poo in the cardboard outside the box? Phoebe is opting for outside the box I think for same reason of painful hunching. Thank goodness for puppy pads.
     
  47. LuvinThisPig

    LuvinThisPig Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2017
    I just put the cardboard flat anywhere near the box, not inside it. I always leave boxes down for them after we get a shipment, because well they just love them! One day, after finishing all the cans of Weruva (months ago) in the flat they are shipped in, I put the flat down on the floor. At this point Pig was still in really high numbers and it was a struggle to get him to urinate by himself even if he was not constipated. However, after just placing the flat down on the floor he almost immediately got up and started using it.

    Now, I do not know if other cats will just use them like that (ECID, right?), but I would think a small scoop of used litter in the box might let them know it is okay to use it. I started putting the puppy pads underneath the box because they can leak after kitty pees. But, it is so easy to clean as you just toss it out. It is sort of like using a disposable litter box without and litter and without paying the price for fancy disposable boxes. This also give me the flexibility to just place 'litter boxes' all over the house when he is not feeling overly well. The random placements help, especially in an arthritic kitty because they do not have to walk as far to reach the box. I have seen a vast improvement in his motivation, alone, to get up and use the box this way. However, I will say this, I live alone and my boys are my life so it does not bother me to have cardboard litter boxes strewn about, but it might some. I just find it to improve his bladder size and frequency of bathroom trips if I make it more convenient on him.

    But, yes, he uses this cardboard box just as he would a litter box. Only, it seems better for him because it has no litter to contend with.
     
  48. Stacy & Asia

    Stacy & Asia Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2017
    She’s been on the bupe since fall of last year. We did acupuncture for a good long while, I won’t say it didn’t help, it did, but results were mediocre and did not justify the enourmous cost of having it done weekly. I asked my vet about the duralactin last time, she said she had never heard of it. My MIL got hyalyronic acid injected into her knee, same stuff? Or it is an oral preparation?
     
  49. Stacy & Asia

    Stacy & Asia Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2017
    Thank you, this gives me some peace of mind re: safety. That’s really amazing how much it helped Pig! I’m trying not to get my hopes up, but I want to believe that is possible for Asia too. Asia has poor muscle tone in her back legs and is also sensitive about them. She has always used her box (except the rare occasion she pee pee pants in her sleep), we have the litter robot, it is shallow but it’s a globe so no sides to worry about. She doesn’t squat to pee anymore, she just pees standing up and it goes on the side of the globe. The poo thing is troubling for her as well, just like you described with Pig. I’m sorry the Adequan didn’t help Pig with that. We use dr ellzeys too, the regular one mixed with crystals.
     
  50. Stacy & Asia

    Stacy & Asia Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2017
    Congrats on your double decade kitty, he sounds like he’s in amazing shape. :cat: Asia was doing pretty awesome all around until about a year ago and then diabetes happened in September and things started falling apart.

    I have 1mL syringes, it would take all day to use insulin syringes. :joyful: Did you mean 0.2 for the dose? Asia is 10 pounds and some change, so if I round up, she would be that same dose, I will run it by my vet. Do you inject anywhere in particular? The scruff?
     
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  51. PussCatPrince - GA

    PussCatPrince - GA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    This is a post of the year. So fab and helpful. Thank you.
     
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  52. Phoebes (GA)

    Phoebes (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2017
    Thank you, much clearer and yes, Genius!!
     
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  53. MJW

    MJW Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2017
    My vet recommended laser therapy for arthritis (companiontherapy.com) but I never tried it.
     
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  54. jayla-n-Drevon

    jayla-n-Drevon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2015
    Yes 0.2 (you could make it a fatty as she is a little over 10 pounds). I usually do the scruff area. Dre is a 20 pounder LOL he gets a hefty dose:rolleyes:
     
  55. Girlie's mom

    Girlie's mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2017
    Here in Oz, we used Pentosan (but we used the brand called Zydax). Initially, many years ago, it seemed to really help Girlie. We had one injection a week for a month; this was quarterly. Then we moved it up to one injection per month. Then there seemed to be a too-coincidental-t0-be-true (but weird) HUGE jump in her BG levels when she got her Zydax injection. As it wasn't making any difference to her anyway, we decided not to bother with them. But Girlie is 19 now, and she's had trouble with arthritis for many, many years now.

    Does anyone know the differences between Adequan and Pentosan? I think we can get Adequan here in Oz, but I'm wondering whether it would be worth trying. It does sound like it does wonderful stuff, even if the cat has significantly advanced arthritis: is that right?

    Wonderful post here with such great info!
     
  56. LizzieInTexas

    LizzieInTexas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2016
    Gizmo did the same with Adequan. Seemed to be fine on the build up dosing but one we went to 1/month his BG went up significantly after the maintenance shot of Adequan. I didn't think it was doing as much as was worth the numbers so I discontinued it too.
     
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  57. Olive & Paula

    Olive & Paula Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    @Stacy & Asia for some reason I missed this and I know it's an older thread.

    On the antinol. My vet gave me 2 boxes of it for Tripper to try. She was already on cosequin. If I remember both take time to start helping. After about 3 weeks Tripper was better. She has a luxating knee and inflammation. I punctured the capsule and squirted in her food. We bought her upstairs for the winter and she stopped eating from the stress of the other cats and I got remiss is giving it routinely. Now her leg is bothering her again. She is back in the basement eating again. Started up the cosequin again. I'm out of antinol. My vet gave me 6 boxes of it for free. Gotta love my vet.
     
  58. Carol & Murphy (GA)

    Carol & Murphy (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2015
    Murphy is almost 13 and weighs ~13 lbs. He also has muscle wasting in his back legs and arthritis A few months ago, my vet started him on adequan (he is on 0.25 ml) and it made a big difference the first week even. He is much more comfortable now - I have noticed no ill effects - sometimes I think his ears may bleed easier, but not sure. She also gave me a sample of antinol to try, but I wanted to try one thing at a time to determine which one was working. Now I can't find the antinol, but when I do, I'll try it.
     
  59. LuvinThisPig

    LuvinThisPig Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2017
    This is the thread I needed @Stacy & Asia !!! Is the Adequan continuing to show some beneficial results for Asia?? Have you considered the MSM powder for her?

    @jayla-n-Drevon I currently give Pig Adequan, but followed your link for the Pure MSM powder from the Holistic Horse. I was pretty impressed so purchased some. I was looking for advice on how to give it and what to look for. Pig has some mild arthritis in his hind quarters from Manx syndrome and some genetic issues...
     
  60. Girlie's mom

    Girlie's mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2017
    This is a wonderful thread with such useful information. I guess one of the big questions when looking at arthritis, though, is how advanced is it? Are we talking about mild joint inflammation and early-onset arthritis, or (as in Girlie's case), are we talking about a cat who's had arthritis for years and years now? When the arthritis is advanced, are things like Cosequin or Antinol going to be useful? Will things like Adequan or Pentosan be effective? Or - at an advanced stage - do we have to look at things like Bupe or Tramadol as pain relievers - and would that be on their own as the other meds really aren't doing much at an advanced stage - or in conjunction with those others?

    I know that Asia is even older than Girlie. Has Asia struggled with arthritis for years, Stacy, or are you just starting to give her meds for it?

    Other arthritic cats: any thoughts on treatment for beginning vs advanced stages of arthritis? I'd be curious to hear what others' thoughts are on this. I'm more than happy to invest in every supplement and treatment under the sun for Girlie, but I wonder what's most effective at particular stages or whether they're all useful at all stages. If that makes sense! :)
     
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  61. PussCatPrince - GA

    PussCatPrince - GA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    I'm just getting into this for Ty.
    perhaps we should have an Arthritis thread in the Think Tank.
     
  62. Girlie's mom

    Girlie's mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2017
    Great idea!
     
  63. Kathy and TiTi

    Kathy and TiTi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2016
    Never used it for arthritis, but it cured Burt's dangerous urinary tract inflammations. First he had a blockage, was hospitalized with an iv and catheter. Then he had one flare-up after another, for a year! But no increase in white cells. My vet decided to try Adequan for the inflammation. It worked within 6 weeks, and after 3 months, we discontinued it. Burt remained in perfect shape. till the end of his life -7 years later.
     
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  64. jayla-n-Drevon

    jayla-n-Drevon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2015
    Hi!
    I put the msm in a gel cap I try to pack it in pretty tight.
    Both of mine do pretty well with being pilled.
    I have to check the size of the gel cap.
    I never give anything on a empty tummy.

    You can try it mixed in food if not too fussy. Mine wont eat with anything mixed in.
    I followed the dosage on the lable as best I can with the pills. I give dre a extra cap because of his size he is a 20 pounder
    I put Vaseline on the cap and it makes it much easier for them and me :)
     
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  65. jayla-n-Drevon

    jayla-n-Drevon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2015
    @Girlie's mom
    Hi !

    I know of a few dogs and cats thst had pretty advanced arthritis to the point where the family was considering quality of life etc...
    They gave adequan and dasaquan with msm as a last thing to try and they all improved. Some more than others.
    My Rico is 20 and has been on adequan for about 5 years.
    I added the dasaquan with msm as well as the msm from theholistichorse and he definitely has even more pep in his step.

    Dre is 19 with fd. He also has been on adequan and I added the msm but not dasaquan due to the fd.
    The msm and adequan help his chubby butt :)
     
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  66. LuvinThisPig

    LuvinThisPig Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2017
    This is fantastic! Thank you.... You give this alongside Adequan correct? He has no other health issue at this moment other than Acro (which was just treated), a slight food allergy beginning to show in his intestinal tract, and arthritis in his hind limb area.... This should not interact with anything, I would not think...

    I am very excited to begin this, but want to be careful... Thank you so much for your link to it! I found several things on that site that seemed quite worth the price... It is an excellent resource.
     
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  67. Stacy & Asia

    Stacy & Asia Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2017
    The Adequan has definitely helped, she has done some things that have been off her playlist for some time. I think we are right near the time when we should start seeing the full benefit, but since she’s having other issues at the moment, it’s really hard to pick that out.

    I have a full bag of MSM and I haven’t tried it yet. I read something about it that wasn’t good regarding heart, it was before her echo so I wanted to be extra cautious. I will try to dig that up again, I couldn’t find it when I went looking for it again, of course. I’m also cautious to add in new things if some things are off because it’s hard to separate what’s what. She’s on a lot of meds and supplements, unfortunately.

    I’m really excited to see how Pig reacts to it, I hope it gives him new springs! :cat:
     
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  68. Stacy & Asia

    Stacy & Asia Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2017
    No, not years, maybe a year or a little less before FD diagnosis. The first sign I noticed was that she fell sometimes when jumping up or down from things. I stopped clipping her nails so she had better traction. I tried a lot of holistic remedies, like green lipped muscle and acupuncture, and didn’t see much if any improvement. I wonder the same thing, if the joints are so degenerated that there isn’t much squishy stuff in there, how effective can these things be? I’m not sure.
     
  69. LizzieInTexas

    LizzieInTexas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2016
    I was giving Gizmo Cosequin for a while (capsule mixed in with food). His phosphorus jumped significantly between labs and that had been the only change. I looked and the source in the cosequin was shell fish (http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...o-pmps-249-3-218-4-5-173.190911/#post-2128502). I called the company (800# on the bottle) and spoke with a technical person in the lab and they assured me that the two were NOT related and that their product did not contain any phosphorus. I still discontinued - I just couldn't risk it being the cause.

    https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B000F4W02M/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    I have almost a whole bottle if anyone wants it I will send it to ya! :)
     
  70. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    The dasuquin with msm... Are you giving the canine one because I haven't seen it in a cat version.
     
  71. jayla-n-Drevon

    jayla-n-Drevon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2015
  72. jayla-n-Drevon

    jayla-n-Drevon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2015
    Hi :)
    Yes we are all about the premptive strike in our senior facility:cat::cat: they get it all:smuggrin:
    above is the link I get my dasaquan from --the pills are bigger than most cat pills but sometimes the teeny ones are almost harder to give especially with vaseline on the slippery little suckers.

    Just FYI theholistichorse has the best flax seed ever--I eat it in my oatmeal. They grind it right before shipping it is so fresh! I take the same msm the boys get too....:bighug:
     
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  73. LuvinThisPig

    LuvinThisPig Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2017
    Excellent! Yes, I agree with you. Premptive is best. I try to approach Pig the same way I do myself. If we can stop joint degradation before it starts the better. I was over the moon impressed with the hollistichorse. I will be purchasing more from them... Thank you so much for the invaluable tip!
     
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  74. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    This is the only link I've seen where they say it has msm in the cat version of dasuquin. Have you gotten it yourself yet? Is it really in there or did they just copy info for the description from the dog label?
     
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  75. jayla-n-Drevon

    jayla-n-Drevon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2015
    I give it to Rico daily and he is doing very well--that being said I just read the ingredients and I do not see msm--I give him the holistic horse msm which may be the added bounce in his step. Just FYI the pills are large for cats but I have no trouble popping them down-I have lately been using the churo treats from chewy and they are nuts for them.
    Tiki makes them also but not as crazy about them.
    ingredients
    glucosamine hydrochloride 125
    sodium chondroitin sulfate. 100
    avocado/soybean 25

    Dre cannot have it his bg goes super high-

    I have not seen any others, I think chewy has the same one as per Larry
     
  76. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    I have dasuquin.... I've used it for over a year which is why I was surprised it had msm listed. The dog one has it. I just got an order of msm from holistic horse as you recommended as she did well with the sample you sent me. I open the dasuquin and sprinkle it on the food.
     
  77. jayla-n-Drevon

    jayla-n-Drevon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2015
    Just so you know the msm does have a taste is hard to explain.
    It isn’t bad just different. My dad likes it lol
    Not sure how fussy your baby is. The boys are snobs I have to put in cap.
     
  78. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    She's been eating it fine.
     
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