1/3 Pearl Not a happy cat

See yesterday:

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=968

Today

AMPS 222 stuck with 3u since I felt this was due to less eating rather than insulin response. Didn't seem like it would be productive to increase.

+3 223

She is just not great. She IS eating, just in very little bits. She would go from her dish to Sugar's and back to hers. I do not know if this is a teeth issue but it well could be. She also feels crappy from itching, I believe. There is a little crusty spot by one of her ears. Her throat area always itches, though there don't seem to be any bumps there. Her acne is currently ok. I haven't even used the hibiclens yet because the acne by her mouth did go away with the epsom salts compresses. I did another epsom salt compress on her throat and on that area by her ear last night. Honestly, I don't quite know what to do. I guess I'll make a vet appointment, but it seems almost moot. She has allergies. Yes, we know that. She can't have steroids. I guess I could try a food trial with x/d or some other and just deal with any carb effects. I just don't know that I believe this is a food allergy. She has inhalent allergies and no doubt and gets the runny eyes and nose every once in a while. I usually note flare ups on her SS. I try to keep things dusted and vacuumed as much as possible but with carpeting it is nearly impossible to keep it all in check. We run an air filter. Chlorophenerimine does next to nothing. I can ask again about trying zyrtec, but every time I have brought it up, there just is no real response and I can't blame them as there is little info on it. Another thing is even SUgar is more itchy than she used to be in the throat area and ears. I could swap out their litter to somehting like WBCL or Swheat Scoop, though *I* don't like it and they didn't much like the trial, but there is no doubt that the dust in clay litter just can't be good and I thought Yesterdays news paper dust wouldn't be any better. I feel like I'm just so frustrated. I *know* she needs some tooth help, but I honestly think it will kill her. I guess I am just venting. I wish they could freaking TALK.

 

((((Karen)))) I don't know how to help at all but you can vent away. Here: angry(2)_cat

 

OK, see, this is what i mean. I know she doesn't feel great, but she is currently menacing Sugar...so she is still enjoying life. ARGGGGH!

 

Why not? If it's the FD that's holding you back, you know you *can* work the dose around the BG-raising effects of a steroid. There are others here doing a balancing act between insulin and steroid - Cassandra's Sasha, Linda's Bear, Carolyn's Latte, Chris' Cleo, to name a few. And Cheryl had Winnie on a steroid too. It's not the first thing I'd reach for, but if you have tried everything else and it's not working, and you think a roid may do it, IMHO it' may be worth a try. At some point, quality of life trumps everything else.

FWIW I didn't find Yesterday's News to be very dusty.

Did you see Cheryl's suggestion in yesterday's condo about consulting w/ board cert. vet. dental specialist for her teeth? A consult doesn't mean you'll necessarily have to have the dental, but it may shed some light on what options are available.

(((Pearl))) cat_pet_icon

 

maybe she DOES feel great and she's trying to play the sympathy card to get something from you. :lol:

 

+6 203

I don't even know that we have a board cert dental vet but i can ask.

OK, here is the deal, she does the neck stretch, like she is going to scratch her neck with her back foot, only she can't do that due to her arthritis, and leaves her head that way. Or sometimes she cocks it and twitches her ear, meaning she needs scratching. I do that and all twitching stops. I rub her mouth and she doesn't respond any particular way, but around her ears and on her throat, if you touch it, immediately her ears go back and her neck stretches, just like if she were going to scratch with a back foot. So, it really seems more like her throat/neck and ears that are bothering her. She just got done eating a bit and while licking her lips, same behaviour. Like when you have that itch in the BACK of your throat. Does this look like a food allergy? I simply can't find an answer to that and of course the vets have always said "allergies, maybe food, maybe not". I guess the only thing I can do is try a hypo-allergenic food and see? (Man, allergies just freaking SUCK in every conceivable way in cats). Is there a decent hypo-allergenic food out there aside from the obscenely priced and yucky looking/tasting x/d?

I did go ahead and clean her neck with hibiclens. On the off chance she has some skin fungus or infection type thing, that should help and I don't think it will hurt.

I think I really need to try a food switch before a steroid dose (because steroids would do nothing for a food allergy). I'm so frustrated grr_red for her. It will be near impossible to switch just her food, but i suppose I can sequester Sugar while she eats and make sure i get it all picked up. She is not a "go back an eater" anyway. I have to give her fresh anytime she thumps the cupboard door or starts yelling at me. I mentioned she also seems to be itchier than she used to be. I will mention neither of them has ever had a flea treatment because they are indoor only. I've never seen fleas. I will say in the summer there seem to be little gnats in the house of some kind. We never see them in the cold weather, but I have seen them around the food or in the box in the summer. I have no idea what they are. I think they come in with fruit maybe?? They just disappear. Could they leave some kind of dirt around, despite vacuuming and such?

I'm up for any ideas and definitely any suggestions on food. I suppose there isn't any protien she hasn't tried except rabbit. The only rabbit food I've seen is the Petguard and that looks just dang nasty and dry. Pearl currently eats FF turkey and giblets (not nuts about it but eats it) FF chicken gourment, Wellness Core canned chicken (seems to like ok), Wellness turkey grain free and chicken grain free. I just tried a grain free Wellness pouch she liked too, if I smoosh it up. She is pretty much fed on demand and I leave it down because she will go snack on dried canned food. She does get a few FF kibble once in a while if I don't get Sugar's right up. I offered her some this morning just to see if she would eat. She did eat those.

*Sigh* I guess food really should be my next exploration. I feel like such a whiner when there are people with much worse health problems in their cats but i just feel like I am *constantly* bothering this poor cat with a pill or a puff or a poke and now I'm always scratching or cleaning her. I've decided there are few things in life that you just get solid diagnoses on, cat or human. Kind of like my current constant sinus problem. No answers.

ETA: I also think maybe all the acne is because she rubs on anything she can find. I'm certain her chin gets mega dirty because of that too. Also, even though this hasn't happened in some time, she has ocassionally lost hair around her nose or on her ears. That really hasn't happened in about 3 years though.

 

Steroids are often a treatment for food allergies. The shut down the body's ability to overreact to anything - food included. Doesn't work for all cats and may work less over time if the same food is fed, but they are commonly reached for as a solution to food allergies.

She has eaten venison? Many people in the Yahoo IBD group have luck with EVO 95% Venison for food trials. EVO also makes a 95% meat rabbit food for dogs that can be fed to kitties, as they are one of the only companies that supplements their dog food with taurine. I've used both and they were well received. Sasha also liked the Nature's Variety Rabbit, both canned and raw, although those both have many ingredients and are not necessarily optimal for a food trial.

It is common in cats that develop allergies to have both food and atopic/environmental allergies. A food trial is most often suggested first as it is usually the easiest and has the least side effects.

Fancy Feast, at least in the groups I have frequented, is a common allergy producing food in cats that are sensitive. There is a mixture of proteins used and they are often unidentified. Have you ever just tried dropping the FF completely, both canned and dry, and seeing if she has any response? The FF chicken does have fish in it - one of the most common allergens.

 

Man, I look at mavistat and her itching fits both food AND inhalent (she can get itchy around the nose and has lost hair there in the past). I haven't just dropped FF. I was looking for a food with NO fish anything in it but that seems almost impossible to find. Almost everything has at least Salmon oil in it. Would that count? Hmm. I could certainly try completely dropping FF. Sugar will ONLY eat FF gourmet with kibble on top (and yes, I tried very hard for 2 years to get her on something, anything else) but as I said, I can sequester her for her meals and pick it up. That sounds like the easiest thing.

I have tried venison...I think it was maybe Van Patten's? It's not like she was on it a lot. But she has been "exposed". As I understand it, that makes it not work? *sigh*. OK, maybe that would be a place to start anyway. Just cutting out all FF. Hmm. I think there is a store in town that sells EVO. Do you think I should start with just the FF denial trial? and then if that doesn't improve things, try the EVO? Does that make more logical sense? I don't know what we would do if I couldn't pill her with pill pockets. It seems like such a tiny amount, never more than one per day.

 

What an awful situation. A few thoughts, some of which you may have thought of many times and checked for. If so, I apologize. I'm no expert, but I have allergies myself and ai have a small dog with seizures and allergies.

1) Are you using plastic dishes? My kitties used to have a rash when I did and vomit much more often. Since the switch to stainless steel, all that is gone.

2) Have you tried feeding ONE actual meat, alone--not as part of a canned food but just diced chicken--for a few days and make sure it isn't some minor ingredient, even a preservaitive, in the food that could be causing an allergy? The proteins, such as chicken, may be the most common allergens, but that doesn't mean 100%. For example, most people with asthma are allergic to cats--but I have asthma and I'm not! (Thank goodness.) If you isolate a single food, and feed it for a while, perhaps you can learn something from that. I don't know how long you have to do it before the old allergens are out of her system.

3) If both cats are itching, could it be a new detergent you are using to wash something they sleep on, or eat from? Are you using an air freshener? Was the itching related to turning on your heat for the season or to any other change you can think of? My dog once had a seizure after sitting next to a pile of new lumber!

4) Could it be a cascading effect? For example, your cat is a little bit allergic to turkey and a little bit allergic to your laundry detergent. When exposed to both, it adds up.

I hope you find an answer soon!

PS We feed one of our cats, Rosie, in a broom closet (with space made for her!) and we have a cat door into the closet so she can eat in peace, see out, and we can be sure Basil and our dog Emmet doesn't get her food.

 

Im sorry you are having such a tough time with Pearl. And yes, I do wish they could speak....and then I take that back. Could you imagine?!?!?!? :lol:

Right now it sounds like you have a few wellness choices. What if you took the ff out and just did the wellness for a bit BEFORE adding anything new? If things are still not going well, then slowly introduce another food (like evo), and wean out the wellness. She may do just fine on wellness alone.

Just a thought.

 

All ceramic. I *did* just pick up the petmate fountain yesterday :cry: They really like that fountain, but it *is* plastic, and I think a lot harder to keep clean than just a regular glass bowl.

I worry about that nutritionally. She has enough problems, I feel uneasy about providing just a protein for any period of time. I also don't think she would eat a sole protein very well and they we have all the BG issues to deal with at that point.

I don't wash anything they lay on much (mostly they use their trees). Never use freshener or have candles or anything because of Pearl's asthma. If gifted, I toss immediately. The itching is constant heat or no, so while dryness might contribute, I don't think it's the source.

Well, I think this is the problem. Like I said it seems like she could have both inhalent and food allergies according to where and how she itches. She's always had some kind of allergies (see the asthma, runny nose and eye and sneezing episodes.). I guess I *know* she has inhalent allergies. Just hard to pin down to *what* aside from really obvious things like cigarette smoke. It's just gotten so much WORSE in the last year. That's what puzzles me.

I really appreciate the brain storming guys. It is helping me.

 

This seems most logical. She likes the canned CORE better than the other. Of course they were *out* yesterday when I went to Petco. Blergh. grumpy_cat

 

Trust me, I know it sucks hardcore (for lack of more eloquent words) to have to look for allergies. I spent 2 years trying to rule everything out for Sasha. I even moved to a brand new newly built apartment in order to rule out allergies - crazy, right?

I would drop the FF first and go from there. I have seen it cause problems in far too many cats. Many times it is not the protein from the FF but the additives - the dyes, etc.

Give that a few weeks - Many times it can take up to 12 weeks for an allergen to completely work its way out of the body, but start with 2-3 weeks and see how it goes. If no change, I would do an actual food trial - 1 food for 8 to 12 weeks. The EVO is a great choice because it is just meat and supplements. It is one of the only food on the market like that. By Nature is another brand that has a 95% line, but they only offer chicken, turkey, fish, and beef.

The Pill Pockets were a struggle for us too. I ended up switching to BCP vet chews (minus the meds - they will sell them plain) because I liked the ingredient list better. But it is still technically straying from a true food trial. Have to do what you have to do, though. BCP Vet Chews

Sasha was constantly (daily) vomiting and chewing herself (thank god she has no teeth or real damage would have been done to her skin), and her eosinophil and basophil levels were almost always very elevated. Eosinophils and Basophils are the white blood cells that point to an allergic or parasitic response. Has Pearl ever had elevations in either?

The Budesonide (steroid) has completely removed those reactions (also dropped her eosinophil and basophil counts). I only reached for it after multiple food trials, moving, and removing all potential allergens didn't work. If given the choice today, I would likely opt to try steroids more quickly. I feel as though I caused some unnecessary suffering on her part by waiting so long, but I did want to exhaust all other options first. I did have to adjust her insulin often after starting the Bude, but she stayed incredibly well regulated despite it. It is supposed to be less systemic than Pred, but we did have to go up a full unit after starting the Bude, so there was still obviously a systemic response.

Salmon oil - Theoretically it is supposed to be just the protein that causes an allergy, and the cleaned oil should not. However, I have also seen many kitties on multiple boards react to salmon oils, even if they are completely cleaned. I would never rule it out as a potential allergen based on that.

Exposure to a protein - Yes, you are supposed to try something that has never been used before, but that can limit options. Start as simply as you can. Work from there. Rabbit is the most hypoallergenic protein source out there. We tried NV rabbit (raw and canned) as well as ground rabbit from Hare Today and added supplements.

I know it sounds hard and there is much to think about. It is hard, I wouldn't kid you and tell you otherwise. All you can do is take it one step at a time, though. You'll find something that works, I'm sure of that. If we did, with as bad as Sasha was, then I have faith that you will too. :smile:

 

Good info. Yeah, Pearl has raised Eosinophils (or did the last time we had her blood panel. Haven't done it in a long time because of the afore mentioned puking and pooping for a vet trip.) but I don't recall them mentioning basophils. They weren't surprised considering the asthma and pretty obvious hay fever type symptoms she exhibits. I think I will try dropping the FF. Going to have to train Sugar to eat in the bedroom. Right now it's a good thing Pearl can't reach with her foot. She just kind of suffers in silence. Thanks so much for your post! It really does help.

 

Have you ever thought of trying Nature's Variety raw medallions? They're frozen, and all prepared for you. So you just take some out every day or so to thaw in the fridge, and just give out of the fridge. It's an easy raw you can feed at least to try & limit allergens in other foods.

I also agree with the steroids though. If raw doesn't do it, then I think your only other option is going to be steroids. If you just gave her oral pred, it would also help her asthma as well! You can always try it to see if her QOL greatly improves or not. In her case, it may be warranted since nothing else works. Thankfully, the chlorpheniramine worked for Cuddles. So she got half a pill SID, and that's all it took for her. She'd scratch her head bloody if she wasn't on it.

Hoping something works for poor Pearl!

 

We tried medallions. Wasn't a big hit. In fact, once she hissed at it. Though it might have been still too cold to eat. We'll see how just removing FF does for now. Pred is what set Pearl on to diabetes, so I am really leary of it, though if it would help the itching I'd consider it. I've been giving her Chlor but it just doesn't seem to do much. That's why I'd like to try zyrtec.

Go figure. I was vacuuming and she came out and inspected everything, took interest in some birds flying outside the window (which RARELY does she notice, ate a little bit and is now napping in a chair, though without her throat resting on anything :cry: So I know it still itches. So she is feeling a little better than this morning.

 

Well, she's already diabetic, so could it really do much more harm? :razz: Just saying! Course, unless it makes her BG's go WAY out of control.. that's the only issue you'd have to worry about. I mean, it's not like she's OTJ, and giving her pred would make her go back on it or anything. Just saying.. pred CAN be useful if the cat really needs it. She wouldn't need her inhaler anymore either. Too bad she didn't like the medallions. :cry: Did you ever try heating some for her? Or even mix it with some canned at first? I'd mix some medallions in with Friskies, and the cats all LOVED it! I think they'd love just the medallions, but it comes down to what I can afford to feed 4 cats!

Poor girl. Do you think she's really being picky about her food, or do you think it really hurts? She doesn't have stomatitis does she?? Bandit has that, and the inflammation actually goes down into their throat. :cry: Had to have all her teeth extracted, and she's doing much better now. I know that's not a possibility for Pearl, but since her throat itches so much, wondering if that could be a possibility? Or pain from the teeth? I just hate for you to mix up her food so much, if it's actually issues from her teeth...

 

Who knows. It's hard to tell if it is her teeth or her itchiness. I really can't tell. She has crappy teeth and no doubt. But we can't remove them or do basically anything about them. So I think I will tackle the itchness first.

 

Not sure if this would even be possible, but could the teeth/pain be causing the itchiness in the throat? Just wondering if maybe a small dose of a pain med or something may help that? Something I'd at least bring up with your vet if you haven't already. Hope something works for her soon!

 

I don't know. I suppose. I'd like to try whatever doesn't add another medication. At some point the meds are going to start to conflict each other.

 

http://www.avdc-dms.org/dms/diplomates.cfm

 

I haven't a clue what the carb content of this food, Natural Balance is, but I had been feeding it to Gabby and my older civie pre-FD diagnosis. They have a couple of varieties that are "allergy formulas." This sounds so frustrating for you.

 

None in my state.

 

Oh THat's the one we've tried venison and duck. I think she liked them ok. I'l have to think about what to do.

PMPS is 283! 3u.