12/22. Elmo...183 AMPS.

Good morning....thinking about trying a full.25 this morning ....last night was quiet ...so nice

 

@Critter Mom @Kris & Teasel @MrWorfMen's Mom .......thots on trying a full .25 this AM????

 

Feeding now....shoot in 30

 

Give me a second here Beth.

 

Yes I think you could try 0.25 as long as you are going to monitor him. He went down to 107 yesterday and you don't want to push him too much further down. That said, we don't know just how much that "minus small drop" is changing things up and it would be interesting to see.

 

Morning Linda...my thots exactly...with all the big drop/small drop stuff I'm sometimes not sure how accurate those doses are...thank you for knowledge and input

 

Good morning Missouri! (movie reference - anyone??) Good advice from Linda. You're becoming an ace at the monitor/steer thing Beth. I'll be in and out today but will check in when/if I can.

 

I'm going to be in and out today too but between us we'll keep tabs on you and Elmo. My morning will unfortunately be yet another snow cleanup but just a little one thank goodness! Sheesh! This has been absolutely ridiculous this year and shows no sign of letting up yet. More snow expected this week and weekend.
And of course I am now running out of salt and kitty litter and have to pick up more pet meter strips for my sugar so errands to be run after I do my new winter fitness routine!

 

Thank u, Kris !!! And yes, I heard Robin Williams when I read ur post...am I right ???

 

Thanks so much, Linda...Christmas day forecast here is uncharacteristic 60 and rain....wish so much could take some of your snow off ur hands

 

You are correct, Beth!!

 

FYI...will post BGs here first as our old desk top can be dodgey for SS some days

 

It's very snowy here today but in a gentle way. I call these "Winnie the Pooh" days ("The more it snows tiddley pom ...").

 

Hmmm ... kitty litter and FS test strips are on my list too. Seniors day at Shoppers - 20% off those strips!

 

Oh Winnie the Pooh .....wish I could be saying" tut tut, it looks like snow "

 

Thanks for the heads up on the strips. I rarely go to Shoppers but I probably should pick some FS strips too as I really think I am going to switch over to my FS meter as of the new year. I just can't stomach that massive price increase for the AT2 strips and with my volatile little one, I'm not sure I feel comfortable using FS strips in my AT2 if it sometimes reads higher rather than lower than an AT2 strip would. I've had my little one suddenly shoot me a 2.2 (40 US) on her AT2 and 1.9 (34 US) on FS meter IIRC so I'd rather the meter read low than high with her so I don't get lulled into any complacency of the seriousness of the situation. I'm gonna miss that AT meter though! The FS Lite doesn't beep as loudly to let me know the strip is filled and being smaller it's harder to see those little lines that show the strip is filling. Maybe I'll try to find a Freestyle Freedom Lite which is essentially the same as the AT2 as an Xmas present to myself and Menace!

 

The price of AT strips is too much for my budget too Linda. The FS strips in AT meter read consistently very slightly higher. If I'm ever in doubt I repeat a test with an AT strip. However, I understand your reluctance to deal with higher reading strips when Little Missy Menace decides to be tricky.

 

After dual testing with the AT2 and FS for over a year, I figure Menace is now worth far more than the most exotic cat on the planet! I know I should be certified nuts for doing it but it did give me a good sense of the difference and a comfort of using the human meter. I found it so frustrating that reduction points in the protocols here don't address the AT2 meter at all and I've seen far too many recommendations to use human meter reduction numbers that are not safe with the AT2 meter. That is what drove me to the dual testing in the first place. If I get another meter, I'll probably do a few dual tests just to make sure I understand how the 2 differ and of course I'll be keeping some AT2 strips around for any crisis situations.

 

Love reading you two discussing AT strips and meters. I just have to shut my eyes and order AT strips for now so will watch eagerly as you both forge ahead of me. One change at a time . Would love if you could post some real time readings of AT vs FS so I can see what you mean by "a little higher".....
AMPS....182..shot .25
+1.5.......134

 

I've wondered about this myself. In my opinion the protocols should include provisions for the AT meter. Carol (@Carol & Murphy ) has said more than once that she misses using her AT meter and went to a human meter in order to post on the L/L forum.

This is one topic in all my musings about switching to an L insulin. I'm accustomed to my AT meter/FS strip combo and feel confident using it the way I do (AT strips when in doubt). I don't want to feel "forced" into using a human meter in order to be able to post there or ask for advice.

 

If you go to Teasel's SS, Beth, I have a separate page of BG comparisons done very methodically. See for yourself.

 

Bummer, I will have to switch on Lantus? Wonder why....

 

Sorry to hijack your thread, Beth ...

 

No, no....love reading two of you discussing things like this....like sitting in on a Jedi Council

 

If you mean switch to a human meter it's because that's the reference meter for which the Lantus protocols were written - ie., taking into account that human meters read lower. They've adapted all the rules about when to increase, decrease, hold, treat a hypo around the readings a human meter will give.

 

Hi praise ...

 

Grrrrrr.....I mean if that's the deal, that's the deal.....will covet you all's opinion on what meter would be best to switch to

 

Would save a boat load of money but cause a mental shift for sure...so human meters read lower...Elmo's 182 this morning would have been.........? On a human meter ???? Approximately?

 

It's not a linear relationship, mathematically speaking. The difference is greater at high numbers and less at lower numbers so you can't really convert. You use one system or the other and go from there. It's like using Celsius or Fahrenheit. You think in terms of one or the other and don't convert.

 

I suppose it makes sense tho...human insulin,human meter.....

 

Kris, I have to disagree that pet to human meter is like Fahrenheit to Celsius. There is a formula to fairly accurately translate between those scales. Not so between the human/pet meter algorithms.

Carol and I were musing over the conundrum of pet vs. human meter reference numbers and while I think I have amassed enough data to be able to provide a ball park range for reductions using the pet meter, it is just a range. There are no exacts because of the scale difference and meter variance allowances. Trying to factor in that the US allows a 20% human meter variance but Canada allows only 15% and the pet meter has a 20% variance in both countries is impossible. To add to the mystery, there are so many human meters out there each with their own little idiosyncracies in accuracy and precision that unless someone were to re-run the Roomp and Rand research using pet meters to establish references in ranges other than low, there will never be any precise pet meter reference numbers and it becomes a "fly by wire" and "know thy own cat" proposition when trying to follow TR and SLGS albeit to a lesser degree. We were discussing recommended reduction numbers for pet meters a while back and everyone thought my number recommendations were too high only to find out, they weren't, at least in that particular case. So while I can offer suggestions based on my own research and experience, my numbers will never be accepted as "gospel".

My biggest question is why Roomp & Rand didn't do side by side research using both types of meters when their documentation outright recommends use of a pet meter. I assume it's because most folks use human meters but it still boggles my mind! And to boot, with the cost of pet strips going up, the chances of pet meters ever becoming the norm is pretty much NIL. I got a sample of another make of pet meter that has cheaper strips and used it to dual test against the AT2 meter and was not impressed at all. It's clumsy (Ok personal preference acknowledged), the strips start up the meter without being properly inserted, it takes a much bigger drop of blood than the AT2 such that strips got wasted, I've been unable to get any very low reading comparisons because Menace seems more reluctant to give up her blood when she is running low. The final decision maker on the cheaper meter was that it read a bit low in higher ranges and a bit high in lower ranges which is not what I want my meter to be doing. I was ever so hopeful that it might be a cheaper alternative but it's not in my view.

 

Mercy....that boggles the mind...what human meter would you recommend? Which is best use wise, not cost wise??
AMPS....182 .25 given
+1.5.......134. ( had eaten about 2t half hour prior)
+2.5........109
Maybe a little snackie now to keep above 100 ????

 

And my admiration and awe for you all mounts. That you everyday counsel with people using different meters without skipping a beat. It's like you are bilingual.......seriously

 

Yes Beth I think a little snack to slow him a tidbit would be good. You know what you're doing!

As for meters, the Relion meters Micro or Confirm are very popular with the US membership here, have inexpensive strips and take a small drop of blood. Best of all worlds!

It's more like tri-lingual for those of us not in the US using pet meters ...... Pet/ human meter readings and US to International BG measures. I'm lucky though because Canada used to use the US scale of BG measure and I am actually more comfortable with your measures than my own because that's what I learned in nursing many moons ago!

 

I'll check for you later Beth. Gotta run out now and get my act together. I hate shopping this time of year with all the crowds so I procrastinate and end up paying for it!

 

Youze lot all ran away and left me behind on my own.



I'm not friends wiv you anymore. Neh!!!


Mogs


.

 

I'm still procrastinating so you're not alone YET!

 

Oh I know.... I stay away from all but grocery store like the plague this time of year. Can feel the tension/stress/excitement which doesn't set happily with we Hobbits

 

That's why Amazon/Prime have become my bestest of friends !!!!!

 

Mogs, you have made me laugh out loud once again!!!

 

The Grand Adventures of Sir Elmo:
AMPS. 182. .25 given
+1.5.......134 ( thy med given)
+2.5......109. ( 1 t snackie given to keep above 100)
+3.5.......133 (1 t aloe given for guard against any possible stomach upset due to thy meds)

 

That's what I use, Linda, the Freestyle Freedom Lite. I didn't realize the AT2 strips were going up in price, and I am so disappointed to hear about the new pet meter - I had high hopes for that one. I continue to hate the human meter, and long for my AT2 every day. Just a note, you don't have to use a human meter on the L&L forum, but it really complicates things not to (as far as getting advice goes)

 

As far as the crazy out there this time of year, I've often thot how handy it would be to carry a stun gun /tranquilizer darts ,to say in my most Christmasy way possible" Chill Out!!!!!!!"

 

Hi Carol....so good to get more input !!! This switch is a biggie for my like-to-keep -things -the same /simple preferred lifestyle

 

I completely agree with this. I meant it more as an example of thinking in one system or the other. Americans rarely think in Celsius when judging what coat to wear on a cool day and vice versa. Maybe it was a bad example ... i was thinking of the conversion formula even as I typed that post.

 

I can see a person just going with the pet meter or other of their choice - once they're experienced - and approaching the whole thing empirically, logging results and analyzing for him/herself. It means you don't have a forum to back you up but we learn as we go with FD. I would never suggest this for a newbie.

 

I SO get this!

 

No, it made sense to me...Celsius makes no sense to me, even when understandably compared...I'm always like " Whattttt???

 

It doesn't really mean you don't have a forum to back you up because there are many of us using pet meters who can guide folks. It does however mean you can't blindly follow ALL the advice you get and must learn the techniques, principles and nuances of this dance from the forum and learn to read your own cat such that you know what the reduction points are using the pet meter for YOUR cat. Believe me, even using a human meter and the reference reduction points, don't work for all cats. They simply provide a guideline to work from. If I didn't have this forum, I would still be sitting here scratching my head raw with Menace on some really extraordinary dose of insulin I'm sure.

 

Elmo's final AM BG...+4.5...127....will be reading over all your good thots on meters and take some notes. Will continue to pick all your brains on this. No choice has to be made this day so I can ruminate on this new revelation of change in meter too. My ole noggin is getting a work out, for sure

 

Sorry not to be adding much today; I'm beyond exhausted.


Mogs
.

 

Restrestrest dear Mogs...it is well here

 

Yes, this is exactly the way I was thinking, Linda. I know that you use the AT meter with Miss Levemir Menace. I'd probably do the same thing. I have to say that we, the users of ProZinc who don't have a set protocol just general guidelines, get quite comfortable figuring our own kitty out and there's no standard meter among us. We're still able to help each other out. Food for thought.

 

Go rest up, Mogs.

 

They may not be going up in your neck of the woods. It seems the pharmacy I deal with did not "keep up" with pricing for quite some time so we got hit with a $17.00 increase all at once when tax was included. Not sure if it was another price increase that made them realize their mistake or not. I often wondered why my price wasn't much higher than yours given the state of our dollar and I guess this explains it.

I just did a bit of surfing to see if I could find the Freestyle Freedom Lite meter because I've never seen one when out shopping and routinely go look to see what each retailer carries. It seems it has been discontinued. RATS! I guess my FS Lite is going to have to do because the only other option that uses the FS strips has all sorts of useless programming to tell me how much insulin to give Menace which is probably going to make it a PIA to use!

 

I see Elmo is being a good boy again today although interesting that he seems to be running a tad higher than on the drop less. Might be food timing difference or his meds taking more effect but it sure is interesting to see how things go day to day.

 

I got a free Freestyle Lite (not Freedom Lite) meter when I bought my first pack of 100 strips. It looks identical to the AT meter except it has an extra button for lighting up the screen. Do you have one of these, Linda? I have it as a backup but haven't even set it up or tried it out.

 

I hate to say it Kris, but I think the fact that there are just guidelines rather than a more regimented protocol for ProZinc/PZI and Vetsulin/Caninsulin forums makes folks think more about the cat and meter in use. The TR "rules" get quoted chapter and verse because it is so precise and sometimes the meter being used is not acknowledged initially. I've had to step in a few times to point out pet meter usage even though it was in the signature.

Yes that's the one I have. It's the same but smaller and mine doesn't beep loud enough to tell me when the strip has filled and the small size makes the screen harder to see. My AT2 is much louder. I was hoping to get the Freedom Lite for the larger screen but alas my Xmas wish has been dashed! I wonder if I somehow made it onto Santa's naughty list??!

 

I know ......he came and ate more about 30 minutes before his +1.5 BG taken so that may have raised the +1.5. Will be good to talk to knowledgeable vet on Tuesday about the connection of diabetes and thyroid. Still believing Elmo's thyroid will also help him lower his BGs. Takes the meds several weeks to take effect if I remember right from our first thyroid kitty years ago. Enjoying so much being a fly on the wall as you and Kris discuss meters. I'm not sure I'm ready to do Lantus with AT tho...still feel like a newbie in many ways

 

Beth, we all have a little trepidation when changing insulin, somewhat like, but not nearly as intense as the day you gave insulin for the first time. In a day or so, you get a "feel" for what's going on and how the reaction differs. Using the same principles you've learned with Vetsulin and understanding when the nadir usually occurs with Lantus along with the appropriate warning, and reduction numbers, Bob's your Uncle. It's really not going to be nearly as scary as you think. You test Elmo more than enough to keep him safe no matter what insulin you are using so you're golden!

 

I've wondered whether this could sometimes be an issue because of the protocol. I've truly learned to appreciate how I have to think through what's happening with MY kitty when I use ProZinc. Having a set protocol can make you feel calmer and more confident but we both know only too well that kitty will do what kitty will do. I've always been a fan of learning for myself how things work and being able to make my own judgments once I have the fundamentals under my belt.


You're right. It is smaller. I know the beep volume on the AT is adjustable but I hadn't checked that on the FS meter.

 

Exactly the way I have had to approach my little one. She doesn't follow the same pattern as other kitties and while there are folks with high dose cats on the site, very few who are still active on a regular basis, were dealing with IAA alone because usually it accompanies Acro. Many of the same principles apply and I learned an immense amount from the counsel of other high dose kitty parents. But there is no protocol. You can sort of follow either TR or SLGS but with high dose cats it's often an up one hill, down another type of scenario rather than slow consistent progress toward regulation. I used the principles of TR and kind of customized something for Menace between TR and SLGS because I can't follow TR implicitly anyway due to her food choices.

I personally think it's very important to help new pet parents understand their cat and why we recommend what we do, so they can look back later and decide for themselves. I love working with Beth because I've watched her learn so much and she now makes a recommendation and we know she has her thinking cap on!

Beth are your ears burning???!!

 

Yes, Beth has come a long way in a very short time! Hear that Beth?

Even if your kitty is text book in his/her responses a bean has to learn to think for him/herself. ECID and we can't all be lock step in what we do. As time goes on we learn more of the nuances and how to work with them. I have another mantra: "I know what I know." (That'd be the gut talking ...)

 

Oh my...oh dear...my ears aren't burning but my heart is warm...this is way too high of praise from the two of you, who I respect and hold in the highest regard. However far I e come , Elmo and I owe it all to you all

 

Really - I can pick one up in my grocery store for $18 - I'd be happy to pick one up and send it to you

 

Oh Carol, I'd would be so grateful if you'd do that for me. I'll send you a PM!

 

Fine no problem at all, unless there is an issue sending something like that to Canada from US

 

I don't think that would raise any suspicions. If you wrap the box in plain brown paper and label it a gift it should be fine. I'll double check the Customs before proceeding. I know you can't send drugs or pet food (we have way over the top pet food manufacturing inspection/documentation requirements here) but I can't see why a glucometer would be a problem.

 

The Relaxed Lantus insulin support group used to work that way, too. I still think it's a shame they closed it down.


Mogs
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Same here (but on Feline Health, not L&L).

.

 

This is the problem I found with trying to use low doses at low numbers with Vetsulin. Fatten the dose and instead of lowering the whole curve you tend to start getting tick marks (an earlier, steeper drop to a lowish number by +2 - +3 and then numbers bump back up again straight away).


Mogs
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In fairness I can't say for sure if my "finds" were on L&L or Health, but it's been L&L regular helpers missing the info on occasion.

 

Hello all.....Elmo PMPS is 188......thinking a regular .25 again tonight ? What says the Jedi Counsel ??? Also, did some looking at my SS and saw there is a direct correlation between PMPS on 12/19 ( after vet visit but before first full thyroid pill later that night) and vet visit....the BGs started going up 12/20 thru today, 12/22 compared to 12/11 thru 12/18....will be sure to show this to new vet on next Tuesday.....might be his sweet little body is trying to right itself after the too high dose 12/19 night and 12/20 morning....just pondering

 

Hey Linda, saw you and Carol posting about the Freedom Lite, got on Amazon and bought one( $33 instead of $18)...I was excited !!!

 

@Critter Mom @MrWorfMen's Mom @Kris & Teasel .....Elmo at 188 PMPS....thinking may go with .25 as this morning....thots ??? I will feed in 15 minutes and shoot in 45...needing some guidance/reassurance

 

Mogs, I am so ready to get off this vetsulin junk...I will do whatever it takes to calmly go with Lantus...ordering tomorrow and just now ordered my human meter/strips....makes me CHEESED that vets even sell it then have the guts to say" well, cats are hard to regulate"....well,yah, on this trash it is

 

And I know ECID, but I will be forever grateful that our vetsulin roads were/are similar....no words, Mogs, simply no words

 

Thinking! Back in a few! Oh I see you saw Mogs note. One of the reasons I'm thinking, looking at SS an scratching my head.

 

I use an Alphatrak and treated with Lantus. Plus I use international units. Even if my PTSD didn't make the busyness of the Lantus board unbearably overwhelming to my senses (makes me completely panic just to look at the thread list - seriously) if I had needed a lot of support with dosing I didn't stand an icecubes chance of getting meaningful support on that board. (I felt that AT users used to be looked upon as lesser mortals; don't know whether that has now changed. Hope so.) An experienced member on Relaxed Lantus gave me a bit of initial coaching and following Saoirse's data helped me to do the rest from thereon in.

I used the TRP as a foundation for Saoirse's dosing but I had to adapt it to suit both her needs and my ability to monitor her given my own health problems. I picked up some tips on tapering from the RL board and she achieved remission despite my making rather 'heretical' dosing decisions for her. Slavish adherence to TRP is not The Only Way for a Lantus cat to go OTJ. (We had a goodly number of successes on RL.)

If you look at Saoirse's spreadsheet you'll notice that I customised the ranges to suit the Alphatrak. (No-one was going to be much help to me if I had any dosing conundrums to address so that liberated me from any requirement to stick to a lowest common denominator system suitable for addressing most of the needs of a large group of people: I was free to design a bespoke spreadsheet to suit my treatment objectives and Saoirse's monitoring needs. Besides, having to try to mentally interpret 'blue' backgrounds for what were 'green' numbers was a complete head wreck.) The first thing I did was to change the colour palette to more muted tones; the bright colours used on 'classic' spreadsheets triggers my PTSD symptoms (they are like 'visual shrieks' to my nervous system).

To determine dosing thresholds I used the Merck normal feline BG reference range given to me by my vet and some guidance notes on ranges to use with AT meters provided in the Roomp-Rand documentation to establish what I used as my 'green' range. I subdivided the green range into three shades based on research I had done into the BG levels at which beta cell damage may start to occur. Anyone looking to offer dosing advice probably wouldn't know where to start with interpreting Saoirses's spreadsheets but they worked for us like a charm.

One feature I added which I found extraordinarily helpful was trend tracking: daily/weekly average BGs and maximum BGs give a much better, more meaningful picture of overall progress - at a glance - than trying to 'gestalt' a trend from days' worth of individual test results. The running averages pick up even a subtle drift in numbers; something that perhaps only a savant might be able to do by staring at a large cluster of multicoloured data.


Mogs
.

 

I definitely caught one PZI bod in the act!

.

 

♫
Santa baby,
Just put a meter under the tree
For me.
Been an awful good girl ...
/♫


.

 

I see that you gave only one snack this AM because of the 109. If the rest of the time was uneventful you could go with 0.25 u again and test at critical times this evening.

 

Same here.

I see from another of Beth's threads recently that you taught physics and chemistry; my favourite subjects, along with maths. I adore physics.


Mogs
.

 

I'm wondering if the increased thyroid med is having any impact yet, albeit small...specifically if it could be influencing Elmo's ability to use his own and the exogenous insulin a little better. And using it better would mean he doesn't need the extra punch and might need less because the insulin is pushing his numbers down earlier setting off a little bounce leading to higher pre-shots. Pure speculation on my part but that dose increase should be doing something and who knows how long before you see even a small effect even if it does takes cats as long as humans to see the full effect of an increase.

So I vote 0.25 minus a small drop tonight.

 

I thought it was just me and my old brain ...

 

I hate dogma.

 

Yes, a thousand times, yes!!!

 

You ALL are BRAINiacs ......oh my goodness ....I continued to be gobsmacked with you all. And here I am a little former first grade teacher in the country

 

Science geek through and through with some art for interest. My hero is Leonardo da Vinci.

 

For what it's worth, he is initial eat was very good

 

Do not underestimate the intelligence and skill needed to teach little ones successfully, Beth. You're laying the groundwork on which the rest will be built.

 

I also think that taking time to thoroughly explain reasoning may also help people who 'lurk' on a thread. It is educational. It helps the member seeking advice and may also help other non-posting followers of the thread, plus the knowledge then remains in the board archive.

The continued success of FDMB relies on education like this. Members come and members go. New members need to take up the pay-forward baton so that those who join after them will continue to receive help and support here.

And I could not agree with you more about Beth, Linda: it is a delight to work with her!


Mogs
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Mercy, Kris. You astound me

Keep pondering, Linda , what DrPat(naturopath) said the other day ...that Elmo's body is working at righting itself...homeostasis , I think she said. As she explained it it made great sense,especially since I'm drawn to all things holistic where the body is given time to work with itself....

 

I thought it took a little time for a thyroid dose increase to have an effect.

 

Ok, ya'll....I have one vote for .25 and one vote for .25 minus little drop....not sure myself..going to look at numbers again...I have about 10 minutes

 

That's what I said to DrPat and she said yes but that the increase ( and extreme stress over vet visit) were the only new occurrences in the mix.

 

Thank you, Kris. It really was gratifying to understand I had given the ability to read to those children. Kinda cool

 

Think I will try to go with .25 minus small drop if I can squint it. I definitely need new lenses in my glasses

 

At night it is particularly challenging

 

Incredibly important. Literacy skills can make or break a person's chances in life.