12/6 Silver - OTJ Trial Day 5 - Looking good so far

Okay so he came out of his bounce pretty quickly. Had to make a decision to shoot or not shoot on my own. No-one online this early in the morning.
Did I make the right decision....gone to work for 12 hours so I did not feel comfortable giving him anything and going out.
BJM and Mel, I think you are right - he just doesn't want to do this dance for long.

Can someone weigh in on what they think was going on with those high numbers yesterday? I was sure that 0.25 was not enough insulin. He peed on the floor this morning and I was expecting a high number as he only does that when his BG is high.

Juliet and Silver

 

Re: 12/01 Silver AMPS 82.8 - No shot

good morning Juliet!

You did right by not shooting this morning since you can't be home to monitor

What was going on yesterday was a "bounce"....The low numbers he got on the PM cycle Saturday caused his liver to "panic" and release stored sugar and hormones to bring him back up to where it's become accustomed to living lately

Looks like he's cleared that bounce quickly though!! It could have taken up to 72 hours to clear, but he's done it within 2 cycles...Woo Hoo!!

Be a good boy Silver while your mamabean has to go to work

 

Re: 12/01 Silver AMPS 82.8 - No shot

totally agree, I would have not given a shot on that number either. Silver is doing great, and so is his bean, have a great day at work.

 

Re: 12/01 Silver AMPS 82.8 - No shot

Thanks Chris and Linda,
let's see what tonight brings.....

Juliet and Silver

 

Re: 12/01 Silver AMPS 82.8 - No shot

Nope wouldn't have shot that number either and according to protocol that earned him a dose reduction. Time to learn how to shoot a fat zero. To do that you want the bottom of your plunger just resting above the zero line on the syringe. At the rate Silver is going he'll have you shooting a drop in no time and then after that the last place to reduce is off. :thumbup

Mel and The Fur Gang

 

Re: 12/01 Silver AMPS 82.8 - No shot

How can he be due another reduction when he just got one on Saturday and hasn't settled into that new dose yet. His numbers were so high all day yesterday and didn't someone tell me about NDW and it takes time to settle? I need to understand why the reduction. Now before anyone jumps down my throat, I'm not saying I won't reduce, but I need to understand. My vet is calling me this week as the ten days she said she would leave me alone are up. I will need to give an explanation for my dosing choices and I don't mind doing that - but I need to understand it for myself.

Juliet and Silver

 

Re: 12/01 Silver AMPS 82.8 - No shot

Well he was high all day yesterday because of the lows of the day before. I highly suspect that he went much lower than the 61 that night. That's a bounce. If you look at Autumn's spreadsheet she is bouncing at the moment as well, once from hitting as 39 and then trying to clear that one and dropping hard and fast yesterday. A bounce happens for one of 3 reasons. Dropping into hypo range, dropping hard and fast, and from going lower than they are use to. Now Autumn has seen a lot of blues and greens since being started on insulin so for her to get into that range doesn't cause her to bounce anymore, but oh could she bounce when she first started to see even pinks after being in the black and red for over a year with her previous owner without treatment. Then she would bounce at a yellow, then a blue or green. Now those don't phase her but going from pink to blue quickly will send her over the moon again. As will dropping into the 30's

Now for why the dose reduction, because he has given you a preshot that is too low for you to shoot given that you can't be around to monitor during the day, if you need to skip a shot because the preshot is too low to shoot then the dose needs to be reduced. Most vets are happy if the cat stays under 250 for an average, we hold them tighter than that normally.

Now if you were around to monitor, then 82 is a perfectly shootable number and would be shot under Tight Regulation but we would also be on you to be testing every few hours to make sure he is surfing safely. Since you can't do that we want him in regulated numbers rather than tightly regulated numbers. Regulated is Mid to low 200's at preshot with a nadir below 150 but above 50 while on insulin, while tightly regulated would be spending the entire cycle in the 50-120 range while on insulin.

Mel and The Fur Gang

 

Re: 12/01 Silver AMPS 82.8 - No shot

Oh one other thing that I want to address about the peeing outside the box, especially since you will be talking to your vet shortly. When was the last time Silver was checked for a UTI? When I have one not using the box that is the first thing I try to rule out, then I start looking for other reasons as in box not clean enough, I clean all of mine twice daily and sometimes 3 times depending on use. The next and this is a biggie here, not enough boxes for the number of cats in the house hold. For 2 cats there should be 3 litter boxes. (1 for each cat and a spare). This is very important when one cat is ill, as the others will often times pick on the sick one, or the sick one will not use the same box as the others. This is something nature hard wires into them, because predators hunt by smell, and they can tell by smell that there is a sick and weak one in the family. Sick and weak equals an easy dinner, so the sick one is seen as a threat to the healthy family members, so they are either driven out of the family group or they will remove themselves from the family group. The old sacrifice of the one, for the good of the many.

Now it is more than likely that at least part if not most of Silver's box problems are from his legs being bad right now, but it also never hurts to investigate other reasons why he is peeing outside the box.

Oh yeah is he just peeing outside the box or is he both peeing and pooping outside the box? If just peeing I would then seriously have him checked for a UTI or other urinary tract problems. Many male cats that have lived on dry food most of their lives will develop blockages and urinary crystals that will cause them to stop using their litter boxes because peeing hurts.

Mel and The Fur Gang

 

Re: 12/01 Silver AMPS 82.8 - No shot

Ok. Thanks for the explanation. I understand it.

Not sure he really went lower than the 62 though as I set the alarm to test him two hours later and he was over 100.

I will try and shoot lower tonight if I can get that "fat zero" figured out.

Juliet and Silver.

 

Re: 12/01 Silver AMPS 82.8 - No shot

He was checked two weeks ago and was clear. I notice the pattern than he only pees outside the box when his numbers have been high. Its the first time he's done it in a week. I have four boxes and two cats and I live in a very small apartment so I clean them twice a day.

Likely I will be ignoring my vet's call when I see that it is her calling. I don't want an argument regarding dosing and I don't plan on bringing him in to see her anytime soon.

When he does pee in the box - he doesn't poo in the box. A year ago, I went though a season where did just did not poo in the box. Peeing yes, so I knew he had no problem getting in the box. Then all of a sudden, he went back to using the box again and I have no idea as to why he stopped or started again. Same right now with the peeing. We go days with him using the box, then a few with not using the box. I don't have an explanation but its not a UTI as we already ruled that out. I cant keep taking him to the vet every couple weeks to check either.

 

Re: 12/01 Silver AMPS 82.8 - No shot

I thought he had been checked fairly recently, but sometimes all the cats begin to blend together, so wanted to make sure it was Silver that had been recently checked.

And yep sounds like there are both enough boxes and they are clean enough, so hopefully once his legs get stronger again he will go right back to using the box again.

Oh one other thing although probably not a problem if he was and now isn't, but has there been a change in litter? I have one girl here (Autumn in fact) that will not use the box if the texture of the litter isn't to her liking. Right after we got her, because she had ketones that I needed to keep an eye on I changed her litter to the non-clumping kind, so I could get a urine sample easily, she wouldn't go anywhere near it after the first step on this new chunkier litter, she wants hers to be very fine sand like, anything with large gravel in it ain't happening with her, and the same goes for anything with a heavy perfume scent to it. So while I love the smell of one brand of litter we don't use it because I would rather smell the litter she likes than the smell of cat pee on the floor.

Mel and The Fur Gang

 

Re: 12/01 Silver AMPS 82.8 - No shot

No change in litter either. And ketones testing - never seen any change to the strip color.

 

Re: 12/01 Silver AMPS 82.8 - No shot

May I suggest you find a few old syringes.... and experiment with trying for that 0.1 u dose.
Microdosing is difficult.

When I was on that dose, I found that with my particular syringes, that supposed one drop had nothing coming out of the syringe.
I had to play with it until I felt I had something coming out of the syringe.

There is a technique we have for determining how many drops are in one unit ( or a half unit) for our own particular syringes.
You can use water in an old syringe.
Hold the syringe with needle pointed to the ceiling and twist the plunger slowly....
You should get a drop beading up on the needle.
Continue doing that until empty.
Count those drops.....each one as it rolls down the needle.

count how many drops you have in your 0.25 dose..... so that you can determine what one drop really looks like.

The reason we continue dosing even for that one drop of insulin is to continue supporting the pancreas as long as we can and hope
for a stronger remission.

 

Re: 12/01 Silver AMPS 82.8 - No shot

Thanks Rhiannon. Yeah, I just got used to getting the 0.25u just right. Less than that is going to be a challenge.

 

Re: 12/01 Silver AMPS 82.8 - No shot

he's going to be OTJ in no time Juliet. :RAHCAT :RAHCAT :RAHCAT :RAHCAT

 

Re: 12/01 Silver PMPS - Dipped in the water - 24 hrs no shot

24 hours with no shot and he's barely touching the water. I tried REALLY hard to get a "fat zero" I counted 4 drops in 0.25 and I squeezed out two. But after I gave him the shot again, I practiced filling one unit and counting drops - and got six. So who knows what he actually got tonight. I am pretty sure it was less than what I usually give at 0.25 but I've only been giving that dose for one day.

 

Re: 12/01 Silver PMPS - Dipped in the water - 24 hrs no shot

Honestly I would not have shoot at all on a 101 preshot after 24 hours without insulin. Since that is still within normal range. But since you did shoot that, watch him closely tonight, you maybe in for another long night. Because if he does what he is famous for he is going to dive early in the cycle.

Normal range for a cat on a human meter is 40 (2.2) to 120 (6.6)

Mel and The Fur Gang

 

Re: 12/01 Silver PMPS - Dipped in the water - 24 hrs no shot

Hi, yes I was wondering about that but as I'm home, I will watch him and test hourly.

 

Re: 12/01 Silver PMPS - Dipped in the water - 24 hrs no shot

If he's not shootable in the morning and you have 2 hours, do a food test You feed him, then 2 hours later, test to see if the glucose has gone up or down. If it goes down, that is a good clue his pancreas is starting to kick in.

He's almost there!

 

Re: 12/01 Silver PMPS - 100.8; +1 84.6

Thanks BJM - but I dont have 2 hrs... I test, feed and shoot at 6:30 am and I am out the door by 6:45am. I wont shoot lower than 150 but if at 150 or above I'll give the same 2 drops I gave tonight.

By the way - on that second point - I fed him and gave 2 drops an hour ago...tested him and he went down. Usually he goes UP after food and his dose for the first hour.

Juliet and Silver

 

Re: 12/01 Silver PMPS - 100.8; +1 84.6

I think that is encouraging, though he may keep you up a bit tonight.

 

Re: 12/01 Silver PMPS - 100.8; +1 84.6

This is exactly why if they are under your current No Shoot number at preshot. You stall without feeding and retest in 30 minutes to see if you have a rising number or a still falling one. Because when the pancreas decides to fire back up it doesn't come with a flag waving. There is no warning sign to tell you that you have a functioning pancreas again. Same is true with a cat on insulin that decides to run a 13 hour cycle instead of a 12, you don't want to shoot a still falling number.

Handling lower than normal preshots

And yep he is probably going to have you up late tonight and I expect a bounce

Mel and The Fur Gang

 

Re: 12/01 Silver PMPS - 100.8; +1 84.6; +2 66.6

Thanks...I cant stall feeding though when he's been without food for 12 hours. His +2 is 66.6 so I did what I know to do and have done three times before in same circumstances and fed him two teaspoons of regular food to slow him down a bit.

My no shoot number is 150 for the mornings when I cannot be here to test but I have shot low blue five times previously in the evenings when I am here.

He is doing well...at least be pleased about that.

 

Re: 12/01 Silver PMPS - 100.8; +1 84.6

Very encouraging, thanks BJM. He just ran after his sister just now - last month he was barely able to walk let alone run. He is doing good.

 

Re: 12/01 Silver PMPS - 100.8; +1 84.6; +2 66.6

I am pleased he is doing so well, in fact I still shudder to think about what would have happened if he was still on 2u and you had to leave him for 12 hours during the week.

But I am also concerned that he is headed for danger because it feels like you under estimate just how powerful of a hormone you are working with. Insulin is a very powerful hormone and a mere drop can have a huge impact that can be potentially fatal. Plus a hypo even if you can pull them out of a bad one with food and sugar can still cause brain damage. Silver's safety is my first concern.

A hypo on Lantus or Levemir can last up to 16 hours because it is a depot insulin.

Mel and The Fur Gang

 

Re: 12/01 Silver PMPS - 100.8; +1 84.6; +2 66.6

Yes I am glad he is not on 2u either - he would be bouncing around from blacks to reds and into blues uncontrollably. Either that or he'd be dead.

Yes I know that, and I appreciate that you are concerned about Silver. I don't underestimate how powerful insulin is though. I have read Felix condo and seen how powerful just one drop is. I have taken every single dose reduction advise that has been given, even if I don't understand it or agree with it. I also know that you said at one point that we do a combination of SLGS and TR. I would never shoot a green and go to work and leave him. I would also never let him go below 3 (54 for you I think) - ever....as soon as I see him getting close to that I have fed him up. I have set my alarm in the middle of the night to take tests to make sure he is on the way UP again before I sleep. I have never gone to bed and left him on a falling low number. I do care about Silver and will not put him in jeopardy.

 

Re: 12/01 Silver PMPS - 100.8; +1 84.6; +2 66.6

I know you love him and that is why I worry. I know what it is like to feel like you killed your best friend, because I carried that guilt for a long time after losing my Muse. Because it was my hand that gave her the dose that killed her overnight. Now granted I was still in the very very early days of caring for a diabetic cat, she had only been home from the hospital about 4 days, and because of a long holiday weekend I had a meter but didn't have strips for it yet and everything here was closed. I did the best I could by her with what I had to work with and had stayed up with her late the night she died. But she still went into hypo after I finally closed my eyes and was gone when I woke up 2 hours later. She had gone into seizures and passed away.

Mel and The Fur Gang

 

Re: 12/01 Silver PMPS - 100.8; +1 84.6; +2 66.6

So what is it I am doing that is wrong? I did not know I was not supposed to give him a dose tonight - you had said earlier to give a fat zero which I did.

I have often shot below 150 and you've not said I should not have done so. In fact you've talked to me about shooting green before although I have only done that once. I've been shooting below 150 the entire time since he stopped getting the vet prescribed 2u. Why the change and I am not to do that anymore???

Obviously I don't want him in danger but can you understand why I get confused here?

I just did a +3 and its the same as his +2 despite having given him 2 teaspoons of his low carb food. Should I bring out the hypo kit?

 

Re: 12/01 Silver

Gave him two teaspoons of gravy FF at +3...about to do a +4 and can stay up to do a +5.

 

Re: 12/01 Silver

Okay let me try to explain. There is shooting low to stay low when the data supports the decision to be able to do it safely. Problem here is there isn't enough data to support it because since getting him off dry food Silver has been trying to walk right off insulin. And he just went a complete cycle in normal numbers without insulin. If he had been high tonight then shooting should have been reasonably safe. It's that he didn't rocket back into diabetic numbers after a skip that has me worried about giving insulin tonight.

Mel and The Fur Gang

 

Re: 12/01 Silver

Ok...so next time he's in normal numbers for an AMPS and I see normal numbers again at PMPS then I don't shoot?

I tested him at +4 just now and he's at 90. I will wait til he's over 100 before I go to bed.

 

Re: 12/01 Silver

Depending on if he keeps dropping you may be up much later than +5.

I am staying on until I know he's back in safe numbers. Kind of the golden rule around here is we stay with a cat until we are sure they are safe.

Do you have plenty of test strips? This could be a long night if he keeps dropping

Mel and The Fur Gang

 

Re: 12/01 Silver

He's rising - he's gone up 30 pts in the last hour.

What is safe numbers?

Yes I have a lot of strips..

But I do need to get to bed as I have to get up in 5 hrs...

I can hold another hour then I must go.

 

Re: 12/01 Silver

Well he is rising now because of the High carb food but that isn't going to last long, in a perfect world I would like to see him above 90 without food propping him up. So let's see where he is at +5.

And if he drops again after the food wears off then you are going to need to stay with him and keep feeding him up so that he doesn't dive again. Sleep is something that sometimes gets sacrificed to keep them safe. Like I said earlier because of the nature of a depot insulin a hypo watch can go on for up to 16 hours and yes, sometimes that means staying with them for 16 hours and testing every 30 minutes if you have a severe overdose. Doubt that Silver will stay low that long but it can happen.

And yes, if you have a normal number that is too low to shoot in the morning and by that evening he is still in normal range don't shoot.

Mel and The Fur Gang

 

Re: 12/01 Silver

I nearly lost my job last week because I was so sleep deprived I was making mistakes.
That cant happen.

If need be, I will set an alarm and get up in a couple hrs but I am going to bed in half an hour. I have to. In 16 hrs time I am at work. So no 16 hr watches are possible.

I was told by someone else that 2 hrs after the food is usually a good indicator that its not a food rise only.

I am thinking of Silver - but I am also thinking of my health and my job. My health is not good as I am sure you have seen in my condo.

 

Re: 12/01 Silver

I can't change the nature of how Lantus works. Nor can you get it back once its shot. If they hypo they hypo and its either stay with them and feed them up or get them to the vet asap. Hypo can kill quickly. It doesn't play by work and sleep schedules. Trust me I didn't stay up until 4 a.m. by choice this weekend with Autumn. I stayed with her because she was too low.

Mel and The Fur Gang

 

Re: 12/01 Silver

I hear you...and I understand....but I really don't think Silver is in danger tonight.. he is purring happily beside me and his numbers are safe.

There is a limit to what the human body can accomplish. I have a 14 hr day ahead of me and staying up late or getting up in the middle of the night is not an option. If I lose my job then I cant care for Silver. I am sure you have seen that in aircrafts, when the plane is coming down, they tell the people to put the mask on themselves before their dependent or else they do not have the oxygen to help and both die. My friends are against me - they think I should have euthanised weeks ago. My pastor and my doctor are worried about my health and my job is in jeopardy. No matter what you or anyone else says....I cannot do the all nighters.

I will do another test in 15 mins then its lights out.

 

Re: 12/01 Silver

Juliet

I know you need to sleep (I have a sleep disorder - I really know!).

You may need to abort the cycle and feed him enough high carb to get him up to safe numbers and then some, so you can sleep knowing he is safe. Yes, it will likely make him high in the morning. I think you can trust he'll come back down and not shoot, even if he is high in the morning. He's been busy proving he can come down to you ... and keeping you up!

 

Re: 12/01 Silver - Lights Out 111.6

Ok...his +5 is 111.6 two hours since food.

Thanks for staying up with me ....I believe he is okay now.

Thanks for your message BJM - but let me just get this straight before I go to bed as no-one is online when I am ready to shoot in the morning. Time difference and all. As far as I am aware, I'm not on "no shoot" orders tomorrow unless he is under 150. Correct?

If he is over 150 then I shoot the "fat zero" (2 drops)that is his new dose.

If thats wrong, please someone post before I have to shoot in the am.

Thanks and goodnight.

 

Re: 12/01 Silver - Lights Out 111.6

Given that you'll be away at work and how much he has been dropping, I think I'd see how he does for 12 hours without insulin.

Maybe if he is over 200, i.e. bouncing, I might give a single drop. I just have a feeling he's ready to try going off the juice.

 

Re: 12/01 Silver - Lights Out 111.6

I do too...Mel do you concur - no dose in the morning no matter the number??

Although - when he bounces BJM - its usually in the 400s.

fyi - this is what I sent to my vet just now.

Hi,
Here is Silver's spreadsheet.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... YM3c#gid=5

He's now been on the Start Low Go Slow protocol for two weeks. I think you can see he has been doing very well. There's only been five days when he has not been in normal numbers.

He's had a few high bounces when I dose change or fur shoot, and I'm expecting another one in the morning (Dec 2nd) as he's now on only 2 drops dose. Apparently from everything I have read so far, the AMPS is the last to come down.

Planning on continuing with this protocol and believing he will be OTJ (off the juice) shortly.

Juliet

 

Re: 12/01 Silver - Lights Out 111.6

I agree

Mel and The Fur Gang

 

Re: 12/01 Silver - Lights Out 111.6

Even if he bounces into the 400s??

 

Re: 12/01 Silver - Lights Out 111.6

Just a single drop if he bounces over 200 mg/dL. You might push the plunger all the way in, insert the needle into the container, release, and it will draw up a tiny bit. Visually check that it is still a small dose, or test how many drops you can get from that, then repeat and adjust if necessary.

I think he will be able to come down on his own if he's under 200 mg/dL.

His pancreas may sputter a bit and you may need to chase the numbers, that is, only shoot if he goes up over 200 mg/dL.

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - AMPS 124.2 Second morning no dose

Gave no dose this morning as under 150 for second morning in a row. He's only had 2 drops of insulin in the past 36 hours and he didn't need those 2 drops.

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - AMPS 124.2 Second morning no dose

WOO HOO!!

GO SILVER!!!!

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - AMPS 124.2 Second morning no dose

Silver is showing us he is done with being messed with. No more insulin, thank you, he says.

I would stop all insulin for at least 3 or 4 days, see what he can do. Even if he bounces up a bit, lets see if he can settle on his own. My money is on him.

At this point, what you are looking for is overall trends, over time. Is he generally in good numbers on his own? A fur ball or a cat fight can bring numbers up a bit, but the question is overall how well is the pancreas doing keeping kitty feeling well. Also, remember that "normal numbers" is a range. Some of us likely run a tiny bit high ourselves, yet are not diabetic. Some of us are low.

My point is while doing a OTJ trial, dont let little blimps on the radar get you discouraged. Look at the big picture.

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - AMPS 124.2 Second morning no dose

HI HO SILVER!!!!

Let's see if this kitty can give us another OTJ party! Alska loves to party....

You are doing a great job being so attentive.

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - AMPS 124.2 Second morning no dose

way to go Juliet & Silver.
hope we get an OTJ Party.
dancing_cat flip_cat dancing_cat flip_cat dancing_cat

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - AMPS 124.2 Second morning no dose

Thanks Tibbs and Robin....was so expecting a bounce this morning...it may still come.

If it does, should I give the one drop - or wait see if he can bring himself down?

Juliet and Silver

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - AMPS 77.4 - THIRD morning no shot - whoo h

Is Alska your avatar? Pretty cat!

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - AMPS 124.2 Second morning no dose

If he bounces, I'd see if he'll come down on his own.

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - AMPS 124.2 Second morning no dose

Ok....sounds real good to me - I might just have an early night tonight.

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - AMPS 124.2 Second morning no dose

I have a button which states:

"Sleep is for wimps. Happy, healthy, well-rested wimps, but wimps nonetheless."

... I confess to being a wimp!

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - AMPS 124.2 Second morning no dose

Yup, then I'm a wimp too... Silver has a habit of waking me up at 4am for TLC. As his neuropathy is so bad he cant jump on the bed anymore he scratches on the side of it til I wake up and lift him.

Now, he sleeps in the cat carrier beside my bed (only place his sister will give him peace). and in the mornings, he will jump on top of the carrier as a stepping stone to my bed....but I still get woken with head butts and he rams his head into my hand until I pet him. Having stayed up with him til midnight last night - this mommy is having a hard time at work today. Its 2:30pm and I am just getting my lunch :-(

Roll on bedtime for this wimp....... I-) I-) I-)

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - AMPS 124.2 Second morning no dose

This quote is from Think Tank but I wanted opinion just to underscore re Silver and his dose - which do you think applies here - should I try an OTJ trial - in which case, please someone post what I do in a trial - just no insulin - for how long?
and if he is in the second category - as he does bounce pretty high into the reds when he decides he's going to bounce - should I give the 0.1u?

Please let me know .....

Juliet and Silver

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - AMPS 124.2 Second morning no dose

With Silver it is an either or situation since he is still considered newly diagnosed (less than a year on insulin) Autumn is one of those that falls into the second category as she has been on insulin for over 2 years and went just about a year after she was diagnosed without treatment.

Personally, if he was mine I would try an OTJ trial with him because of the way he drops so hard and fast early on. With my guy that has been in remission 4+ years I never shot less than .5 and that was only one shot before trying an OTJ trial with him which he passed with flying colors and has never looked back since. Cassanova took a couple tries at it before he passed and Autumn, well she is just Autumn and will or won't come off completely but she'll do it by her own rules.

The worst thing that happens if they fail an OTJ trial is you put them back on insulin again.

But an OTJ trial is testing as normal just not giving insulin. If the cat can stay in normal range for 14 days without insulin and most of those numbers in the double digits, then they are officially OTJ and we throw a party.

Mel and The Fur Gang

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - AMPS 124.2 Second morning no dose

Ok...so I test at AMPS and PMPS and don't shoot no matter what I see....okay, I can handle that. And am sure Silver's ears will be glad of the break. I KNOW he was getting frustrated last night with the hourly testing.

Double digits? For me you mean below 6 right?

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - AMPS 124.2 Second morning no dose

double digits would be 2.2 to 5.5 for you. Sorry I keep forgetting to convert.

The only exception to the rule is if he goes above 200 and just keeps going up or goes into high numbers and stays there for more than a couple days.

But we will walk you through that if it comes to that. Just keep testing and posting the numbers and we'll try to catch the red flags if the OTJ trial needs to be aborted and he needs to go back on insulin. And as always when withholding insulin, get those ketone checks in as often as possible. Even a trace on the ketone strips its back on the juice for the little guy.

Mel and The Fur Gang

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - AMPS 124.2 Second morning no dose

I dunno if I am doing the ketone testing right....I tried using different litter for him (non-absorbent) so I could grab a test and no chance....he used the puppy pad on the floor.

On Saturday I caught him on the puppy pad so I immediately grabbed a stick, threw it into the soaked pad and soaked the strip. It didn't change color. So does that mean no ketones?? I have only done this twice and both times it stayed the same color.

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - AMPS 124.2 Second morning no dose

Yep if it doesn't change color then no ketones...There should be a color chart on the bottle that tells you by color if you have them and to what degree. The tricky part with ketostixs is they have to be read right at the 15 second mark. They will sometimes darker or fade after that mark, so you want whatever color it is right at 15 seconds. So what I do, and now my two are easy they use the box and aren't shy about it, When I hear someone peeing I race in with the stick in hand and stick under their butts into the urine stream, pull it back, count to 15 and check against the color code on the bottle.

Mel and The Fur Gang

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - AMPS 124.2 Second morning no dose

Yeah none of mine will pee if I am in the room!! Yup waited the 15 seconds and have got the color chart. I guess we are good then.

Yup that's me. I wish I had a bigger house!

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - HOLDING - 399.6...do I shoot??

Sorry for the 911 but need speedy reply - do I shoot or keep to the OTJ trial plan. Came home to huge bounce.

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - HOLDING - 399.6...do I shoot??

Let's hold the shot and see what he can do on his own

It is useful data no matter what we decide going forward

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - HOLDING - 399.6...do I shoot??

Also, I think you're probably already pretty late and I know your schedule doesn't have much leeway, so by not shooting late tonight, if the general consensus is to start insulin again, we won't have to worry about whether it's been 12 hours or not

OK now Silver...here's your chance to have your pancreas show us what it can do!!

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - HOLDING - 399.6...do I shoot??

Ok..yeah its snowing hard outside so I'm half an hour late getting home. I was sooo disappointed to see that high number :-Q :sad:

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - HOLDING - 399.6...do I shoot??

Soooo - if he is high tomorrow morning and I havent seen him come down much tonight - what if anything, do I shoot in the morning. I am up and out the house by 6:30 am EST so I rarely see anyone online to ask at that point so need some guidelines tonight if someone can chip in and advise please.

Juliet and Silver.

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - HOLDING - 399.6...do I shoot??

Juliet
try this for ketone testing. it's sand that doesn't absorb so you can get a sample.

http://www.amazon.com/Kit4Cat-Hydrophob ... hobic+sand

if you can't get it, PM me your address and i will mail you some. i bought a few bags for Tibbs but now i use the blood ketone meter.

this one,just in case you can get it.

http://www.adwdiabetes.com/product/nova ... 7AodmzoAvg

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - HOLDING - 399.6...do I shoot??

Thanks Nadine but Silver just wont use any other litter and as right now, he is often using the puppy pads on the floor, I dont want to do anything that might discourage him using his tray.

Also - I live in Canada so ADW doesn't ship here.

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - HOLDING - 399.6...do I shoot??

Sorry was testing and feeding the herd here.

If he is still above 300 (16.6) tomorrow morning go ahead and shoot but only that .1

Since you don't have half unit markings on your syringes, you are going to want just a sliver of light between the bottom of the plunger and the needle end of the barrel.

Mel and The Fur Gang

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - HOLDING - 399.6...do I shoot??

Ok..Thanks Mel. Oh and I do have half unit syringes now. So I'm giving one drop?

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - HOLDING - 399.6...do I shoot??

You're giving a fat zero. A drop is even smaller.

Mel and The Fur Gang

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - HOLDING - 399.6...do I shoot??

Juliet,
I might have missed if you said already, but did you retest that 399 to make sure it wasn't just a bad test?

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - HOLDING - 399.6...do I shoot??

No I didn't think of that. Going to do a test in about ten mins (three hours since food) to see if he has come down on his own. (Carl - I posted you a message in Grief I hope you have seen it)

Mel -not sure then what a fat zero is. Last night I filled a syringe to one unit. Squeezed out the drops and consistently got 6 large drops to one unit. I then squeezed out four drops and gave Silver the rest. Would that be considered a fat zero or too much?

I know I shouldn't but I fill the morning syringe the night beforehand. My eyes aren't so good and first thing when I'm tired I can't see to fill micro doses so I need to get this fat zero down tonight.

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - HOLDING - 399.6...do I shoot??

Yes Juliet, I saw what you posted in Grief and thank you for your kind words.

I retested Bob a few times when I saw a really unexpected number. Sometimes I got disappointed with a number close to the original. But there were times when the first test turned out to be wrong. I wrote if off as a bad strip or too large a blood sample.

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - Lights Out after no shot - 304.2

I kind of did expect a bounce though - just was expecting it this morning after his low last night.

I just tested after 3 hrs since his food - he came down to 304.2. Still high but from red to pink with no insulin must be a good sign right?

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - HOLDING - 399.6...do I shoot??

Carl

I'm on my phone atm, computer is doing a disc scan so can't access to grab a link. Can you link Juliet the photos of the different micro doses?

The ones I'm thinking of are in the Stickies in the Lev ISG. But should be I think in TR as well. Steve & Jock did them if that helps tracking them down. Pretty Please?

Mel and The Fur Gang

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - Lights Out after no shot - 304.2

No problem, Mel!

Juliet,
Follow this link to see what really tiny doses look like -
http://steverapaport.com/jock/SyringeFineGradations/

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - Lights Out after no shot - 304.2

Sorry guys, I'm beat...am heading to bed.

Let's hope I don't have to shoot at all tomorrow but if I do, I will allow myself enough time to check see if there is a instruction post here....if not, will give the 2 drops that I gave last night...at least I'm pretty sure it was 2 drops. These micro doses are so hard to do when you're in a rush. Even practicing is hard as its different every time. Anyone got any easy ways of doing this fat zero thingy?

Goodnight all - hoping for a nice yellow or blue number in the morning so no shot required.

Juliet and Silver

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - Lights Out after no shot - 304.2

Perfect timing, thanks Carl...will check it out.

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - Lights Out after no shot - 304.2

That looks hard to get right.....

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - Lights Out after no shot - 304.2

Thanks bunches Carl. < blows kisses> You're a Peach. And still my favorite no L using visitor

Mel and The Fur Gang

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - Lights Out after no shot - 304.2

haha_smiley

Well I think I got it...wasted a bit of insulin practicing but hey, I dont think I am going to need the whole vial he will be OTJ before it finishes. Right?

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - Lights Out after no shot - 304.2

Absolutely right. You may be in a chasing numbers situation, as Mel does with her kitty. When its high enough, she gives a drop and otherwise, she waits.

 

Re: 12/2 Silver - Lights Out after no shot - 304.2

Yup - he surprised me this morning with a nice green number...go Silver!

 

Re: 12/3 Silver AMPS 77.4 - THIRD morning no shot

that's great Juliet. dancing_cat dancing_cat dancing_cat dancing_cat dancing_cat

 

Re: 12/3 Silver AMPS 77.4 - THIRD morning no shot

I am sure hoping for a nice green number tonight too - blue would be fine also.

Here is Silver in his pre-diabetes days - sneaking into my bed with such an innocent look on his face when he got caught!

 

Re: 12/3 Silver AMPS 77.4 - THIRD morning no shot

Yep, you just enjoy yourself today, Juliet, and have a great day at work, knowing your baby's pancreas is happily chugging along. He is doing great! Remember, as Carl said, a high number can be a bad strip, or kitty has a fur ball he needs to expell, or he has his panties in a twist about something.

 

Re: 12/3 Silver AMPS 77.4 - THIRD morning no shot

Lol! Yeah, I was disappointed with those high numbers last night but glad I didn't shoot anything.

 

Re: 12/3 Silver AMPS 77.4 - THIRD morning no shot

​

Go Silver Go!!!!

Hmmm wonder what your vet is going to say in another 13 days if he can maintain these numbers. ;-)

Ya sure we don't know how Lantus works in a cat around here... :lol:

Mel and The Fur Gang

 

Re: 12/3 Silver AMPS 77.4 - THIRD morning no shot

Uhuh....I'm remembering her comment in her response to me "It would be delightful if all cats would read the textbook and respond to the Lantus injections as outlined by Mel and The Fur Gang. Sadly they don't and they do as they wish. I will reiterate, this is not a micromanagable disease in cats." I called the vet yesterday by the way and told the receptionist I had emailed the SS and could she take a look. She didn't get back to me. I guess no-one likes admitting they were wrong. I may not hear anything.

But hmmm....as he had no insulin yesterday, I'm counting today as day 2 of his OTJ trial.

 

Re: 12/3 Silver AMPS 77.4 - THIRD morning no shot

It is Day 2 of his OTJ trial but today isn't over yet. So it is 1 day down and 13 to go.

Mel and The Fur Gang

 

Re: 12/3 Silver AMPS 77.4 - THIRD morning no shot

I'm thinking positive - the guy is going to be playing in the grass all day with maybe a dip in the lagoon later.

 

Re: 12/3 Silver AMPS 77.4 - THIRD morning no shot

This just might be the bounce.

I would wait it out and see but someone with more dosing knowledge might advise otherwise. Still looking good - Hi Ho Silver!!!

 

Re: 12/3 Silver AMPS 77.4 - THIRD morning no shot

Good job Silver and Juliet

I had to change vet after Prop got diabetes. She didnt work with me and the dose just continued to rise. I suggested a foodchange to wet food. The vet said no. When i did anyway and numbers dropped dramatically, she refused to advise me anymore, so I changed. The best decision ever Prop was OTJ for more than 3 years. Just started insulin again in may and will prob. Not get OTj one more time. So i just try to keep her in safe numbers below 250, but not dropping to low. I jult like the blue number, she is safe and i can go to work not worrieng

 

Re: 12/3 Silver AMPS 77.4 - THIRD morning no shot

I had never taken mine to the vet until the diabetes....so this is my first experience with the vet. They are indoor cats so I don't give them any shots except their initial shots as kittens and getting them neutered/spayed. This vet is not happy I am not using the DM Purina prescribed food either. Unfortunately with this vet experience re the diabetes I have lost all faith in vets (don't have much in doctors either mind you). She's a nice person but she was clearly wrong in her ideas.

I will have to take my other cat in soon (stalling til I have the $$). She is not losing any weight despite me having her on just one can of FF a day and one teaspoon of the Purina DM - she's a dry food addict and I am finishing off the bag I bought for Silver. Once that's done she won't get dry. I am concerned she may have hypothyroidism or something else explaining why not weight loss.

Juliet and Silver (and portly Sasha)

 

Re: 12/3 Silver AMPS 77.4 - THIRD morning no shot

Hypothyroid is extremely rare in cats. And usually only shows up after there has been a injury to the thyroid or as the result of treating hyperthyroidism with radiation. (I131)

But I can tell you that cats just loose weight very slowly. It took me nearly a year to take the weight off Cassanova, and he's still a little bit 'fluffy' around the middle..
You really don't want her to lose weight fast as it can cause other health issues. But just like with humans, its not just diet alone, it is also exercise. You got to get her up and running around. She needs to move like the cat she is, she needs to run, jump, climb, pounce and hunt. You have to get her heart-rate up and wear her out.

We ran Cass all over the house with feather wands, laser pointers, a streamer of fabric on a stick, and made him chase, and leap in the air until he would finally just quit and lay down exhausted. In short we became a bird and a mouse to chase. It's a workout for you both, but it is also a great way to bond, especially since she is a civie and right now Silver is getting all the special attention. Sasha still needs her special mommy time too. Because just like with children, cats can get very jealous if they think one of the members of the household is getting special attention and they aren't. And will pick on the favored child, when mom isn't looking.

Mel and The Fur Gang

 

Re: 12/3 Silver AMPS 77.4 - THIRD morning no shot

Oh believe me I have tried. I have the wavy wand toys and I poke her trying to get her up and playing. She plays when she wants to and that's not often :-(

She gets her special time - that's when I've gone to bed - she'll come and climb in her TLC.

 

Re: 12/3 Silver AMPS 77.4 - Vet Response to Silver's Progres

Lol Mel....do you think this is a concession that yes, the forum DOES know what its talking about?? Any ideas anyone, re how to send her the spreadsheet for her files...dunno why they cant print it.

HI Juliet,
Things certainly do look like they are working well. I can't believe that he is letting you test his BG's so often. He is such a good boy.
Awesome that he will soon be OTJ.
How is his walking doing?

Wondering if you had a magic way to send me the spreadsheet in a format that I can use in our vet software. After downloading and managing to get it into an Excel .xls file I learned our software doesn't like that.
Then I downloaded it as a .pdf file and it is 32 pages long. Don't want that either.
Can you send me the info for Nov 2014 as a .pdf that is maybe 1-4 pages long - likely needs to be in landscape format.
Does that make sense?
Thanks kindly,

Dr. G.

 

Re: 12/3 Silver AMPS 77.4 - Vet Response to Silver's Progres

i'd say it's a concession. .lol congratulations