1st time here with a question.

Hi,

My name is Caitlin and I am glad I found this site. My cat Simba was just diagnosed with diabetes on Saturday and we started him on his 1st dose of Pro-zinc last night. He will be getting 2-units twice a day and next week he will be monitored by the vet for a full day and re-tested. His level was 712 the 1st time and 610 the second, both way high, poor baby. He has lost a lot of weight in a very short amount of time and is currently 8lbs and basically bones. I am looking for the BEST recommended wet food to start him on, he is used to wet food and shares a can of Purina Friskies once a day with his "brother" Milo and they had free-reign to dry food. Well we are thinking of taking them both off Dry all together (the much prefer wet anyway). I saw on you information page about feeding Fancy Feast but I am concerned with there being less food there and having to feed more of it. We are trying to stay on the cheaper end considering we also have a young child and 3 dogs (one of which is also on high end food for allergies). It seems Simba is ALWAYS hungry he will eat everytime you put food down and I know that is a side effect so I am hoping once he is regulated it will calm down. I looked at Fancy feast and they are 3oz cans vs the typical 5.5oz. How much would he need to be fed to bring his weight back up but yet keep him stabalized? Also about how long until you start seeing them gain weight back? Thanks for any advice!!
Oh and if needed he is 5 years old, neutered, indoor only.

 

Hi Catlin and Simba and Welcome!

The first thing we are going to plead for you to do is to learn to test Simba's blood glucose levels at home, just like you would do with your two legged children. Stress raises blood glucose levels and it is the rare kitty who is not stressed at the vet, with all the strange noises, smells, animals and people. If the dose is determined by that numbers inflated by stress, the dose may be more than the kitty needs. You can get more accurate curves at home and it will cost you much less.

We would also urge you not to change the diet to all wet until you are testing. (With our Oliver, we switched from dry to wet and his numbers came down 100 points overnight. If we hadn't tested that next morning and had given the usual dose, he would have hypoed on too much insulin.) Once you are testing and monitoring carefully, you could switch to Friskies pates for example and buy the larger cans. We suggest you do feed more than you usually might. You are right, unregulated diabetics are often hungry as their bodies are not metabolizing the food effectively.

If you are willing to learn, we have taught hundreds of people to hometest over the internet. Please let us know how we can help.

 

Welcome Caitlin & Simba,

I can't help you with the insulin questions, since my girl is on Levemir...but I can tell you all about feeding diabetic kitties on a shoestring...lol If you look down at my signature you will see there is quite a herd here...yep you counted right TWO diabetics and 13 non-diabetics as well as one large dog and a husband.

Around here since we have such a large furry family we feed just good old fashioned Friskies Pate style canned catfood, and everyone eats what my diabetics eat. And I will tell ditching the dry food altogether will be the best decision you will ever make not only for Simba but for Milo as well. Even my non-diabetics have blossomed on an all wet diet.

The other best thing you can do for Simba is learn to test his blood sugar at home, not only will this be the best way to keep him safe while on insulin it will also keep a lot more money in your wallet, since you won't need to keep hauling him back in for all day testing. You can run those same curves at home, then take the numbers into your vet and go from there. Or we can help you make sense of the numbers and know whether he needs more or less insulin. The only time either of my diabetics go to the vet's is when they are either sick or normal kitty stuff like shots, but when it comes to their diabetes I do all that myself at home.

As far as when they start putting weight back on, every cat is different but usually once their bloodsugar stabilizes they gain back what they have lost. Now with some cats that can happen in a week or two...I have one diabetic that has been off insulin completely for 2 years as of today and only was on insulin 2 weeks, then I have my other that is still insulin dependent but regulated but that took since April to get her to that point.

When they are still unregulated they are going to be starving all the time, so let Simba eat what he wants right now because his body can't process the food he is eating correctly..another good thing about Friskies Pate it comes in 13oz cans. Once you have him regulated and his bloodsugar back down near normal depending on what his ideal weight is, he should probably eat around 5-7oz of canned food per day, depending on what you are feeding.

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang

 

Thank you BOTH so much! This is great information. I am completely up for testing at home and I am actually for it. I do really like my vet and it is great that he is right around the corner (vs my last vet that was 30 mins away) but if I can manage it at home that helps a lot, especially since I have a super busy work schedule and an active toddler! I just would like to know more information about how and what to do. My husband is one of those guys that needs evidence and convincing, he will go by what the vet says before beleive something I tell him from a forum. ( it is unfortunate really :-| ) I think I will still take him next week to stay for the day at the vet just to get a start and then go to home monitoring from there. He has always been such a happy healthy cat and this came on so very fast that his only symptom was the extreme weight loss.

Thanks for the food suggestions too, If we can stay with Friskies which he has been on his whole life then I think that is ideal and buying the large cans will be a great help too!

I am so glad I found this site, I have a site I go for info on my human baby and now I have one for my 4 legged babies

 

Welcome Caitlin and Simba! I understand your husband and his point of view. I'm one of those people as well. Perhaps my story will help convince him you have found the best place you could to help Simba...

I was ho humming around trying to weigh the info here vs the info I was getting from the vet. It was quite different and I was trying to figure out what I thought was best for kitty. Unfortunately, I waited too long to listen to the wonderful people on this forum. On the day I had planned to finally get some home testing supplies, I came home at lunch to find my cat, Buster, face down on the floor. He was having a severe hypo episode. He was completely limp, unable to eat, yowling and kind of twitching. I was horrified! I got some honey on his gums and we rushed him to ER! He recovered quickly, but we learned the hard way that following the advice most vets usually recommend is not the way to go. My vet has access to Buster's spreadsheet and she checks it once a month. We chat about Buster a bit when I take one of our droolers in for visits. But mostly, I listen to the folks on this forum and I try to visit other people's condos often so I can learn from their experieinces and offer support. Honestly, I don't know how a vet could possibly manage a diabetic cat via office visits. It really is something owners need to embrace and comit to managing at home.

I'm glad you found us! Please ask as many questions as you need! You will find people here are very knowledgeable, responsive and dedicated to getting kitties off the juice!

 

Fantastic that you are open to testing at home. Here is a video that shows how it is done: Video for hometesting

And here is shopping list for things you will need:
A human glucometer. Any one that sips and takes a tiny sample is fine. Some members stay away from any meter with True in the name and the Freestyle meters. Some people think they are unreliable and read lower than other meters. The meters are often free at drug stores; it’s the strips that are expensive. You can, however, buy them on ebay at less than half the price of stores. Lots of people here also like the ReliOn from Walmart. It is an inexpensive meter and its strips are the cheapest around. Try the meter out on yourself or someone else before you try it on your cat. You want to be familiar with it before you poke the cat.

Lancets and a lancet device. Usually, until the ears “learn” to bleed, a 26-28 gauge is good. Any brand will work as long as the lancets match your device.

Ketone strips. (Ketostix) Just like human diabetics use. You will sometimes need to test urine if the numbers are high.

Rice sack. Make this out of thinnish sock, filled with raw rice or oatmeal and then knotted. You heat this in the microwave until very warm but not hot. Then heat the ears before poking. You can also use a prescription bottle filled with very warm water. It provides a good surface to poke against.

Also nice to have. Flashlight: so you can look at the ears and find the little capillaries that come off the vein running down the ear. Vaseline: Put a tiny smear where you want to poke. It will help the blood bead up.

And some lo carb treats to give your kitty, successful test or not Lo carb treats

And a way to get Simba ready for home testing:
First pick a place where you want to test. Some people use the kitchen counter, a blanket on the floor, between your legs while sitting – whatever works for you. Take the kitty there and give him/her lots of praise while you play with his/her ears. Give a treat and release. Next time, add the rice sack (thin sock filled with raw rice, heated in the microwave until very warm but not hot) or a prescription pill bottle filled with very warm water. Lots of praise, treat and release. Finally add the lancet so he/she will get used to the noise. The hope is that when you finally poke, they will be used to the process and know a treat is coming!

Here is some reading with lots of links on ProZinc: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=32799

If you are going to take Simba in for a curve and the vet suggests a dose increase, I would urge you to get some numbers at home before you do so. We suggest that new diabetics start low (.5 to one unit twice daily) and go slow with increases (.25 to .5 unit increases as needed) Simba already started on a fairly high dose and it may have been over his ideal dose to start with. It is impossible to get insulin out of the cat once shot; it is easy to slowly increase as the numbers guide you.

I know we are just strangers on the internet, but everyone who responds to your post is paying it forward for help they received. Collectively, we have years of experience with hundreds of diabetic cats. We are not vets but we had dealt with many more diabetic cats than most vets see in their practice over their lifetime. Keep reading, ask questions. Your vet may be interested in a website by a vet who endorses start low and go slow approach and is a pioneer in wet low carb diets: www.catinfo.org

 

It doesn't look like anyone else chimed in- but the 2u BID for Prozinc is a bit high for just starting out. The base line is to start at .5u or 1u and keep it steady and gather data before you move up. Why did the vet suggest that? You say Simba is skin and bone it isn't b/c of his weight.

And you only move up in .5u increments rather than in whole ones like the vets prefer.

Yikes! Those numbers were high! How much is he effected by vet visits? If he is agitated his numbers might be elevated b/c of vet stress (but not by 500 points :lol: ) .

I started out with Wellness, changed to FF once I realized it was okay, then (because my cat is picky) switched to Sophisticats and now am on Special Kitty from Wal-mart. I don't know if she just likes to change or if the cheaper food is better tasting :? :lol: . Mel has a house full so she can tell you how to feed a horde!

Simba is literally starving right now so will want FOOD all the time as his body cannot get the nutrients out of it. That will continue until his numbers start getting regulated (looking decent and in lower numbers) and until then he wil be a hungry, hungry hippo so free-feeding is the best and he will eat a lot! Mine at 15-18 oz/day at the beginning- LOTS of little 3oz cans so shifting to the 5.5 oz ones were a life saver!

Hope this helps.

HMJ

 

Thanks again to everyone! This information is wonderful. I do not think my vet is too familiar with Diabetes treatment and has only seen a few cases reason being is it is a VERY small practice in the rural area where we live and he strongly recommended the dry D/M food which I heard is actually not good. I will tell him about the lower dosing because his approach was to start somewhere and adjust from there going down. He also wants to see how the change in food will affect his numbers.

I can believe his reading was probably pretty realistic because he was just so skinny at the time and he was just as comfortable as can be at the vet. Actually they couldn't even get his heartbeat because he wouldn't stop purring! He is the most laid back and friendly cat I have ever met. I know the weight of 8lbs doesn't sound low but he seems so thin compared to how he was and you can see his hip bones.

We are amazed with only 4 doses so far of the Prozinc how much happier he is. He is back to his (I am going to meow as loud as possible all day long.. self) I am going to feed him as much as he wants until I see him not begging for more as much and hopefully he will put the weight back on quickly.

Thanks again!

 

Dry food in general is not good for cats. For reasons why, please check out Dr. Lisa's site: www.catinfo.org

And prescription food is honestly no better than what you can purchase at the store. It just costs a lot more money. You can return the prescription to the vet for a refund. They have to take it back and the pet companies guarantee and will refund it. So, you can save yourself money, by returning and buying low carb wet/canned food.

Most vets don't know a lot about diabetes, as they are more like general practitioners and know a little about many different things. The vets I have dealt with don't know much about feline nutrition and will only recommend prescription food and dry food at that. I have learned to just say no and not discuss food with them. When I do need to bring my cats in for anything and they have to stay overnight, I bring their kitty bags with them that includes the food and treats they are allowed to eat, with instructions. This avoids any issue about letting the vet decide what to feed them and discussion about what they should/should not eat.

Once your cat starts to get regulated on the insulin and his numbers start getting back to normal range, you will see that he will naturally put on weight again and by continuing to feed low carb wet food, will maintain the ideal weight for him. Patience is needed. I know how painful it is to look at an underweight cat and want to "fatten" them up. It will happen, naturally, just be patient.

 

Re: 1st time here with a question. UPDATE!!

So I took Simba to the vet for his monitoring. (getting into home testing in one week was just too overwhelming for right now but I will try it) and on his 1st test WITH OUT his insulin this morning was 215!! Down from his 1st test of 712! This is very good news and they said they will tesk again later and may lower his dosage.

We decided to go ahead and switch both the cats to an all wet diet of just the pate Friskies and they are loving it so far! Simba is back to his old self and I think is even gaining weight already and his coat looks much better.

Thank you all again for the advice!!

 

All lovely signs. It looks like the food is helping the numbers lower. I would be very careful, testing before each shot. Our advice for new diabetics is not to shoot under 200, but to wait 20 minutes (without feeding which raises the levels) and retest - both to make sure the number is rising and that it is over 200.

If he were mine, I would restart at one unit(over200) and monitor carefully. We do have kitties here go into remission or have much lower numbers with just a diet change.

 

Thank you, the vet tested him 3 times and she said his levels got down as low as 78 after insulin and food. She thinks there is a very good chance he could come OTJ as soon as he stabalizes which would be wonderful.

My question now is that they are keeping him at 2 units twice a day, I figured since he did so well they would have us lower the dose. Should I lower it myself anyway or just stick to that for now?

 

I would go down to one unit and check levels often - always before the shot to be sure he is over 200 and at nadir (around +6) as often as possible.

Our idea is that if you shoot more than the cat needs, you run the risk of hypo and you can't get the insulin out once it's shot. If you shoot less and monitor to see how that dose is working, it is easy (and safe) to raise the dose by a little every few days until you get numbers you like. It's the basis of our "Start low, go slow" method.

I know it is hard to go against your vet's advice, but you could tell him, with the nice numbers, you were nervous about the higher dose. (you also need to consider that these nice numbers he got could have been affected by vet stress and would have been dangerously low if you were testing at home.)

 

So just so I make sure I understand. I should test before giving the shot and if over 200 go ahead and give the insulin but what if he is under 200? Do I then skip it and test later?

I am going to try and order the home test kit from here so I can get started. They want new numbers in 2 weeks.

 

If he is under 200, we suggest new diabetics wait 20 minutes (without feeding because food raises the number) and retest. One, to be sure the number is going up, not down. Two, to be sure to goes up over 200.

If money is not an issue, you might just go to Walmart and get their ReliOn meter and strips and some 25-27 gauge lancets and start. (it will take a few days to get ours). With the diet change and how the insulin is working, it would be nice if you can get numbers now.

Regardless, you can start getting him ready. Figure out where you want to test - on a towel on the couch, or the counter or between your knees. Take him there and play with his ears, giving him lots of praise and a treat after a few minutes. Do that a few times, then add the rice sack and start warming his ears. Again, praise, treat and release. The idea is that, by the time you add the poke, he will be ready.

You are doing great with this steep learning curve!

 

Lowering is good. But don't immediately drop it from 2u down to 1u as that is a 50% reduction- drop it to 1.5u to help his body ease into the lower dose.

 

This site is peer reviewed, Catlin. None of us are vets and we don't always give the same advice. It's your job to read what we say and decide what you think.

I do disagree with Heather. You recently started wet low carb; the vet got 78 which is very low when you consider possible vet stress. If you were coming here when you first started last week, we would have suggested a starting dose of 1 unit, not 1.5. As I said, you can always raise it as the numbers suggest.

It would be wise to get some ketone strips (just like humans use) at the drug store and start testing his urine, if you are going to reduce the dose. It is just another way of keeping track of how he is doing and is wise if you decide to reduce. Here is some information: ketones

My advice is worth what you are paying for it :mrgreen: but I would reduce to one unit, monitor daily and be ready to raise if that's what the numbers suggest.

 

Personally, I believe it would be sensible to drop to 1 unit, at least until Caitlin gets hold of a BG meter.

78 is a very low reading to get at the vets, and the risk of a hypo episode seems quite high, especially as Caitlin has no means of BG testing at present.

Caitlin, I think you would do well to pop to Walmart and purchase one of their ReliOn blood glucose meters. What with the low vet reading, and the change in diet, you really need to keep on top of your kitty's numbers over the next few days.

Do you have glucogel/ karo syrup in case of a hypo? Do you know how to recognise and treat a hypoglycaemic episode? There is a post at the top of the main page in this forum, which gives all the info needed on how to recognise and treat a hypo. Please do read it: How to treat HYPOS - THEY CAN KILL.

Good luck.

H

ETA: Sue, I didn't see your post until after I'd typed out mine, it seems we were posting at the same time; hence the apparent repetition of everything you said! Anyway, I agree.

 

We will be going to Walmart tomorrow to check out glucometers and get one. A time crunch between work and getting home to get my daugter from 6-6 every day makes everything during the week pretty much impossible. Plus our nearest Walmart/anything other than Foodlion is 25+ mins away.

On estimate (and I know every cat is different) how long does it take to get a numbers test? Doing it in the morning during the week is going to be super tough but I will have to figure it out.

I think I will see how his numbers look, post them and then decide whether to lower the dose or not.

Thanks!

 

The first few times it may take awhile as you are unfamiliar with it and so is your cat- who may fuss because that is what cats do best . But it is imperative to get that fasting number in the morning and at night.

Now it takes me about a minute- which includes warming the ears first (always necessary b/c cold ears don't bleed much), poking, getting the blood onto my nail, getting the strip out and putting it in the meter, and writing the number down. We've been doing this since January and so are better at it than when we first started and Sneakers knows what to do and doesn't have a problem with it.

I do my curves on the weekends- usually Sunday as I can come home between SS and service to test and run back.