2/18 Mocha pmps hi/ 1am hi/ YOWLING

Discussion in 'Lantus / Levemir / Biosimilars' started by Mocha aka Cold Play, Feb 18, 2016.

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  1. Mocha aka Cold Play

    Mocha aka Cold Play Well-Known Member

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    How can this be? She was over 500 at pmps. Gave regular insulin.

    After the 66 immediately rubbed some honey on the gums because with only kibble yesterday, we don't have a go to and she should not be low at this point in her cycle.

    Not eating kibble anymore. Not wanting food. Not even treat.

    Obviously no insulin. Vet appt at 10:30 for fluid. He does not come in til after 9am.

    Prayers for me.

    DH was awake and heard me say "oh no" I tell him and he goes back to bed.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2016
  2. carfurby (GA)

    carfurby (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Do you have anything you can tempt her with to get her to eat something? The honey was good, but it will wear off and the depot could keep her numbers low. Sending prayers.
     
  3. carfurby (GA)

    carfurby (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Have you tested her again?
     
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  4. Mocha aka Cold Play

    Mocha aka Cold Play Well-Known Member

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    64!!!! I am in panic mode. Gave honey twice she did eat dry about 15 minutes ago and is eating again now. How fast will the dry kick in?
     
  5. carfurby (GA)

    carfurby (GA) Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure how long it takes for kibble to kick in. At least she is eating something. Test again in 20 minutes. Breathe. :bighug::bighug:
     
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  6. carfurby (GA)

    carfurby (GA) Well-Known Member

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    With the 64 she is not dropping right now. She's staying flat.
     
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  7. Doodles & Karen

    Doodles & Karen Well-Known Member

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    Try to breath, 64 is a safe number. It could take a good 30-60 minutes for the kibble to take effect.
     
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  8. carfurby (GA)

    carfurby (GA) Well-Known Member

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    I'm at work right now. I'll try to stay on as long as I can. You're doing fine.
     
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  9. Gill & George

    Gill & George Well-Known Member

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  10. jayla-n-Drevon

    jayla-n-Drevon Well-Known Member

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    Try to be calm... when kidneys are not functioning well it will cause nausea. Have they talked about a day or 2 in the hospital to flush the system and follow up at home with sub q? If leaving her at vet is out of the question you can do fluids at home aggressively as it is not in the vein and will take a little longer. I would ask for a script for the nausea pills or injections .... many many prayers... Please remember a cerenia injection does work very well (for 24 hours) but it does sting. I personally give fluids and inject in the fluid "bubble" I also keep the cerenia in the fridge and a needle in the freezer to dull the sting. (the may be able to put in IV??
    When I inject in the bubble it works just as well and Rico doesn't even notice the needle-
    :bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug:
     
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  11. carfurby (GA)

    carfurby (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Have you gotten another test? Has she eaten any more?
     
  12. Mocha aka Cold Play

    Mocha aka Cold Play Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for checking...she got to 260, she eats periodically. It seems the honey, which she did not like, actually helped her eat on her own after.
     
  13. Mocha aka Cold Play

    Mocha aka Cold Play Well-Known Member

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    I feel like "I" need anti-nausea for this. I can't have it with Ultram.
     
  14. carfurby (GA)

    carfurby (GA) Well-Known Member

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    That's good. I hope the vet appointment goes well. :bighug::bighug:
     
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  15. Mocha aka Cold Play

    Mocha aka Cold Play Well-Known Member

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    I thought I read that anti nausea fights a stimulant? If there is a stimulant in the fluid (used to be with my other cat's kidney failure) then will it help?
     
  16. Amy&TrixieCat

    Amy&TrixieCat Well-Known Member

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    :bighug::bighug::bighug:!!!

    Just for future reference was an OK number - the honey and kibble were probably not necessary. But that's OK...don't worry about it!

    There is a chance that the fluids she got yesterday made her BGs come down like that. It's something we'll help you keep tabs on if you start doing fluids at home.

    Technically, there is no stimulant in the fluids - but fluids can help them feel better and that will make them want to eat.

    What you may be remembering is that you don't want to give a stimulant to a nauseated cat - you want to give anti- nausea meds first, wait for them to kick in, and then give a stimulant. Sometimes just addressing the nausea is enough and there is no need for a stimulant.

    It's great that she's eating, even if it's kibble!!

    You're not alone....remember we're here for you!! Don't forget to ask the vetty for a paper copy of Mocha's labs - that will really help us all see exactly what is going on.

    Sending a TON of prayers.
     
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  17. jayla-n-Drevon

    jayla-n-Drevon Well-Known Member

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    @Amy&TrixieCat said....
    try to relax.... some cats do have a drop in bg after fluids like Amy said---
    I am sure the vet and labs will help others help to get a handle on everything--try to stay positive as many of us have been dealing with kidney issues for years and do well....many hugs and prayers..:bighug:
    :bighug:
     
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  18. Mocha aka Cold Play

    Mocha aka Cold Play Well-Known Member

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    is there any value in testing stool? She had a stool earlier this morning and again a few hours later (but that one more loose).

    The kibble was given because that is all she will eat since yesterday. So, since she went to 60's with it and she should have raised by 6:30 am and she was in the 60's, who knows how low she was at nadir several hours before. If she would eat wet that would have been fine but she won't. And, believe me she is not really chowing down on it. She has left it out yesterday and today, so she is not doing well.

    Wonder if the vet knew it would drop her? He did say keep her 200-300 (like I have a say?!), maybe that was why....but he said more for helping the kidney function.
     
  19. jayla-n-Drevon

    jayla-n-Drevon Well-Known Member

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    I personally would let her eat .... wet or kibble or baby food or whatever she will eat that is not harmful...
    Did your vet know it would drop??? depends on the knowledge of FD--and it is possible she dropped from depot....
    kidneys are probably his/ her priority right now to flush out toxins... hang in there:bighug:
     
  20. Amy&TrixieCat

    Amy&TrixieCat Well-Known Member

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    It can't hurt to test stool...

    Don't worry about the kibble...I just wanted you to know that even though Mocha had a very big drop, she was still safe from hypo with that 64. But you have to do what you have to do keep her safe - don't worry!!

    The vet may or may not have known about the drop. My vet, who is absolutely fabulous, was surprised that Trixie dropped like she did when she was still on insulin. It doesn't happen with all cats and of course many caregivers don't test their cats' BGs, so that adds another twist - your vet may not have seen it before.

    I would say keeping her at 200-300 would not be of any help to Mocha's kidneys, that's for sure!

    Hopefully by addressing some of the basic issues related to chronic kidney disease - the nausea and dehydration it causes - Mocha's appy will pick back up. I won't lie...it can be rocky at first. Trix and I definitely had some very rough patches when she was first diagnosed with kidney issues. But we pushed through and by being very consistent with her medications and getting her to eat, she is now doing quite well for a kitty whose kidneys are supposedly barely functioning.

    We'll help you with this as much as we can!
     
  21. Mocha aka Cold Play

    Mocha aka Cold Play Well-Known Member

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    vet said the same, whatever she will take. I think when we are sick I don't want soup, as I want crackers or bread (carb comfort).
     
  22. Sienne and Gabby (GA)

    Sienne and Gabby (GA) Senior Member Moderator

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    There are a couple of things to consider. Cerenia is fine as an anti-nausea medication but it's expensive. Ondansatron, in the injection form, is less expensive and is a sub-q injection, just like Lantus. You can also give both Cerenia and ondansatron if necessary.

    The kidney issues can cause an upset stomach. Pepsid may or may not be helpful in addressing this. Pepsid helps to control stomach acid but isn't an anti-nausea medication.

    You may want to ask about a phosphorus binder. This will give you lots of food options vs the foods that are low in phosphorus. The best low phos food is Hill's K/D but it's very high in carbs. Finding a low carb/low phos food that Mocha will eat may be tricky. A phos binder will allow you to feed pretty much anything.

    Remember to get a copy of Mocha's lab values when you're at the vet today.
     
  23. Mocha aka Cold Play

    Mocha aka Cold Play Well-Known Member

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    What is a phosphorus binder and how given? Leaving in 10 minutes
     
  24. Amy&TrixieCat

    Amy&TrixieCat Well-Known Member

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    One problem kidney cats have is phosphorous - if it's too high, it makes them feel yucky. Unfortunately phosporous comes from food, and lots of food is high in it.

    A phosphorous binder pulls the phosphorous out of the food, making it more appropriate for a kidney cat to eat. With Trix, the only foods she will eat (Fancy Feast and Purina One) are very high in phosphorous, so I use a binder that I mix in to the food so she can eat what she wants.

    The binder comes in powder form, but I use a different one called ConSeal AIH - it's "flavored" and shaped like a vitamin. I shave a little off and mix it in to every meal for Trix. She eats this version of the binder much better than she ate the plain powdered version.

    It all sounds so overwhelming, but we'll help you sort through it all. Mocha may or may not need all of what we've talked about so far - that's what the labs will help tell us.

    Also, I don't know if you saw my post a few posts back....nothing major, but I did answer a couple other questions there, too.
     
  25. Lydia--(Rosie & Basil) GA

    Lydia--(Rosie & Basil) GA Well-Known Member

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    Best of luck with the vet visit.
     
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  26. tiffmaxee

    tiffmaxee Well-Known Member

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    Did you get the lab results? If you can post all of them we can help guide you. I've started Max on a phosphorus binder in powder form and so far so good as he is eating. When Tiffany was diagnosed her phosphorus remained okay for a long time. You might want to look at Tanya'scrf.org for lower phosphorus but still lower carb foods. I'm feeding Max Nulo freestyle Turkey and Chicken, Wellness Turkey, and Mauri kangaroo right now but always looking for new foods to try. I would want a urinalysis to make sure there isn't a UTI.
     
  27. Mocha aka Cold Play

    Mocha aka Cold Play Well-Known Member

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    Sep 23, 2015
    Please see labs, Lab of 2/17/16

    I requested anti nausea and he gave her a shot. Assume it was not Zofran but the one that burns because she growled at it and in the car immediately after she was hissing and swatting at me. That is not her.

    Asked about phosphorus binder and he said it will taste awful and may irritate the stomach issue.

    Asked about bp, and he said he can't check it, does not have the equipment. Not very accurate.

    This vet is always on edge with my questions. He may take it personal as questioning his experience. I just want the best help always, nothing personal. But, some people don't take it that way.

    She was much better for the fluids. Only slight shaking. No movement to get away.

    She went straight to eat after home and did go for the wet canned. I had hoped the nausea med would make that happen and ditch the kibble!

    She was actually purring a storm when eating and after, went to scratch on her scratch post. I have not seen her do that in a long time. I held her and she purred also.

    Treasuring each moment. You never know.

    Please find the lab on the tab of ss, far right. Comments welcomed, and esp any good signs that turn around is possible.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2016
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  28. tiffmaxee

    tiffmaxee Well-Known Member

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    Looking now. BRB.
     
  29. carfurby (GA)

    carfurby (GA) Well-Known Member

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    It sounds like the vet visit has helped her feel a little better. Sending prayers. :bighug:

    Don't forget to check her BG in a little while since she got fluids to make sure the fluids don't bring her numbers down fast.
     
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  30. tiffmaxee

    tiffmaxee Well-Known Member

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    Okay. That jump in creatinine makes me wonder if there is an infection. Max jumped from 2.6 to 4.2 and we checked for infection. So far nothing has shown up. Your jump is pretty large for six months. Even if no infection us brewing you are NOT end stage by any means. The phosphorus is high and a binder would be a good idea if on recheck after adequate hydration there isn't an infection of some kind causing this. In spite of diabetes and kidney values the potassium is good which still makes me think infection somewhere. I would also want to get a blood pressure check. CBC might help determine if there is an infection too.
     
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  31. Mocha aka Cold Play

    Mocha aka Cold Play Well-Known Member

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    Sep 23, 2015
    She was given a 3 week antibiotic injection yesterday. I asked him today, did he see signs of infection? He said 'no" but to help the kidneys. (?) Why would antibiotic help if no infection?
     
  32. Melanie and Smokey

    Melanie and Smokey Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like she got a shot of Cerenia. That seems to be the go-to for nausea these days with vets. It is only 24hrs so if they didn't give you pills to continue it at home, she will probably need another shot tomorrow. Cerenia and famotidine (pepcid) were definitely part of getting our ckd girls through the rough patches.

    The creatinine is high, but not an "8 out 10" in my books. The BUN is really high, but that can be helped with fluids. I would make sure that she is getting enough subQ fluids, some IV would help and your description tells me they are doing subQ at the vets.

    Are you able to assist feed her? I would personally assist feed k/d wet at this point. Since it is not her normal food you don't need to care about her getting food aversion from the assist feeding and it will lend to bringing down those numbers like the phosphorus the fastest. It is too high in carbs for a diabetic cat, but he diabetes is second fiddle right now. If you can bring down the BUN and phosphorus with fluids, low phos foods and/or a binder, and make sure she is getting enough food in, there is a good chance she starts feeling better and her creat with come back down I think.
     
  33. Mocha aka Cold Play

    Mocha aka Cold Play Well-Known Member

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    Sep 23, 2015
    Thanks for the optimism. Would like a day w/o tears.
    What is k/d? Is it prescription?
    She did have some of the wet but then would not on the 2nd go and only some kibble, it is the grainfree by Purina. Carbs are still up there but not all the fillers. It is the chicken BEYOND.
     
  34. Amy&TrixieCat

    Amy&TrixieCat Well-Known Member

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    I'm not real great at interpreting labs since, as I mentioned, Trix is my only experience with CKD. But I do see that Mocha's phosphorous is pretty high and that is probably contributing to her feeling yucky. I do think a phosphorous binder really could help her...and don't be discouraged by the vet saying it tastes terrible. You don't know until you try, and it could very well help her!

    I agree with Melanie about the anti-nausea shot - probably cerenia. You really will need something you can give at home, too. I know Sienne mentioned ondansetron, but I get the feeling that your vet is a little "old school" so I'm not sure how much luck you'll get with getting that prescription. Cerenian injections are very expensive to do at home, but it does come in pill form. That is what Trix gets every day to keep her tummy settled and her appy appy.

    Did the vet say anything about you doing SubQ fluids at home? I think this is another tool that would be important for you to have, so you can keep yours amd Mocha's stress levels down, plus it won't cost nearly as much as having to take her in.

    Do you know what antibiotic injection she was given? Was it Convenia?

    Yes, K/D is a prescription kidney diet. It's a little high in carbs, but right now treating the kidney issue trumps the diabetes - the insulin can always be worked around the higher carb food if necessary.

    Any luck with finding a new vet? I definitely think you should try to find one who can check her BP - controlling blood pressure is also very important when treating chronic kidney disease.
     
  35. tiffmaxee

    tiffmaxee Well-Known Member

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    I'd be concerned that the shot was not cerenia but rather convenia since he said it would last three weeks. My Tiffany had all her numbers spike when the oncologist missed a UTI. If convenia was given its tge the best if there is a UTI.
     
  36. Amy&TrixieCat

    Amy&TrixieCat Well-Known Member

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    Elise - it sounds like she got cerenia for nausea today, but I'm also guessing Convenia yesterday for the possible infection.
     
  37. Mocha aka Cold Play

    Mocha aka Cold Play Well-Known Member

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    Sep 23, 2015
    Don't know the antibiotic but she has done well with the 3 week, vs a lesser lasting one.

    No vet results from the 2 remaining, both were personally contacted. They are not responding. So, that is not a good sign either.

    I can get the fluid from him on Sunday at no extra fee and for now that is pretty important as I know skipping a fluid when they seem good is not good.

    I asked about if one person could do it, he said they have to be very still. I saw him remove that needle and it is quite large! I asked how he determines spot and he says between hip bone and pelvis in the fleshy but NOT muscle. I think that would be hard to do alone at this point. And you probably have to push on the bag and hold the bag.....can't envision it.
     
  38. Mocha aka Cold Play

    Mocha aka Cold Play Well-Known Member

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    I asked but I may have missed a reponse, ZOFRAN, tablet, what dose for 7.5lb, is it 2x a day or one,

    We have a limited supply for ourselves that I could give her after this shot wears in 24 hours.
     
  39. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Kari

    I'm at dentist so quick response. This is treatable! Her creatinine is not that bad.
     
  40. Sienne and Gabby (GA)

    Sienne and Gabby (GA) Senior Member Moderator

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    I agree with Elise -- the longer acting antibiotic sounds like Convenia. It's not for kidney infections. The only indication it has is for skin infections.

    As others have noted, a shot of Cerenia is fine for today. What about tomorrow? You need to be able to do this yourself and not be running back and forth to the vet. It's too stressful and you and for Mocha. Fluids are easy to administer once you get the hang of it. Marje put together an excellent video on how to give fluids. When I was learning, people offered all sorts of help and suggestions. I did fluids all by myself. I hung the bag on a clothes hanger an hooked the hanger on the refrigerator. I gave Gabby her fluids on the kitchen counter, which is also where I tested. Zofran (ondansatron) and/or Cerenia can be administered in the fluid line so it's not lots of shots. I don't know the dose on the Zofran tablets. I only used the injectible form.

    If your vet says a blood pressure isn't accurate, then he doesn't have decent equipment or doesn't know how to get a BP. Please get someone that has proper equipment and knows how to use it. Hypertension can have an effect on kidneys as Amy outlined yesterday. Getting BP under control can do wonders. If there's any way you can arrange a consultation at Cat Hospital of Chicago and then use your local vet for day-to-day care, please consider it. Elizabeth Czerwonky is an excellent vet as is Daphne Thompson. Their equipment is state of the art. They have and know how to take a doppler BP -- once Gabby was a senior kitty, they checked her BP annually. My vet here does house calls and brings BP equipment with her.


    K/D is a good food for a kidney diet. You will need to work the insulin around it since it's higher in carbs than what you've been feeding and it is a prescription food. A phos binder is an excellent alternative. I ordered my phos binder (along with the lines and needles for fluids) from Thriving Pets. You'll need a prescription for these supplies.


     
  41. Amy&TrixieCat

    Amy&TrixieCat Well-Known Member

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    Marje made a great video about giving fluids - I don't have the link handy, but I know others do so I'm sure someone will share that with you. Again, I have never heard of doing fluids in that hip area...everyone I know does it up by the shoulders. I do think the shoulder area would be much easier to manage if you're doing them by yourself.

    There are a number of folks in this group who do the fluids by themselves - it is doable with practice. My DH generally "helps" me, but I have done them by myself, too. And when I say he helps, he really just sits at Trix's head to distract her, and he checks the numbers for me to tell me when it's done. I do the needle stick and hold her in place while the fluid flows.

    You don't have to push on the bag - gravity does the job for you. We have the bag hanging on a hanger from our shower curtain rod. You are right, though, the needle does have to be fairly large, otherwise it would take forever to get them done. Trix gets 100mls daily, and I use a 20 gauge needle. My vet uses a needle that is even larger than that, but Trix didn't like it at all. 20 gauge works well with getting the fluids done in about 5 minutes without causing her much discomfort.

    The concern about the injectable antibiotic is whether or not it's appropriate for whatever infection she might have. If it's Convenia, that is really just indicated for skin conditions, not urinary issues.
     
  42. Amy&TrixieCat

    Amy&TrixieCat Well-Known Member

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    ...also, one trick my vet tech recommended for doing fluids if you're by yourself: use a top-loading carrier. It helps keep kitty contained while you still have access to the shoulder area.
     
  43. tiffmaxee

    tiffmaxee Well-Known Member

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    That is what I was thinking too Amy.
     
  44. tiffmaxee

    tiffmaxee Well-Known Member

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    Zofran works for no more than 8 hours. I've always used the pills and given morning and night. It can be given three times. Max needed at least 2mg but with appetite stimulants a crumb works.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2016
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  45. Sienne and Gabby (GA)

    Sienne and Gabby (GA) Senior Member Moderator

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  46. Tricia Cinco(GA) & Harvey

    Tricia Cinco(GA) & Harvey Well-Known Member

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    Kari, if you have a human prescription for Ondansetron (Zofran), you can give that, assuming it is tablets and not sublingual. It's probably 8mg. Maximum dose per day for a cat is 4 mg. They usually have you start with 2 mg, which you can give once or twice a day as needed, so if you have the 8 mg tablets, you'll need to split them. How comfortable are you with injecting meds? I assume you do the insulin injections, so it's similar, although the needle is a little bigger. I have a good supply of Ondansetron injectable, from my two girls that I just lost. I'd be happy to send you some, and some needles, if you'd like to try it. They were close to Mocha's weight, so the dose would be the same.

    I gave fluids by myself all the time. My vet said to do it in the upper body - picture a saddle on your cat, and anywhere in that area is where you'd give it. I mostly did the scruff.

    Here is the link to Marje's wonderful video on giving fluids, featuring the adorable Gus. I also have a huge supply of 20 gauge needles, and would be happy to share some of them with you.
     
  47. Mocha aka Cold Play

    Mocha aka Cold Play Well-Known Member

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    Sep 23, 2015
    thanks for this, it looks like the 1mg is only given 1x a day. With her weight that may be good after the 24hours has past. Now how to get her to swallow it? Any volunteers?
     
  48. Mocha aka Cold Play

    Mocha aka Cold Play Well-Known Member

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    Sep 23, 2015
    Thank you. I would like to try to injectable zofran vs trying to get her to ingest. I will message you.
     
  49. Lydia--(Rosie & Basil) GA

    Lydia--(Rosie & Basil) GA Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    That creatinine is not nice, but not terrible. I think there will be a lot you can do. I feel bad. I know you are doing this alone, but there are many virtual helpers here.

    There is an excellent site called Dogaware.com. Go to Health, then Kidneys. Yes, it is about dogs, but there is a lot of valuable information there.

    Hang in there! You're head will stop whirling as you break this down into the steps you need to take and start taking them.
     
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  50. Jill & Alex (GA)

    Jill & Alex (GA) Senior Member Moderator

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    Kari, you're getting slammed with so much information. It would make my head spin!
    Just wanted to stop by to say "hang in there". Like the others have said, this is treatable. Alex lived many years with bad kidneys. It was cancer that got her in the end.

    You can do this.


    :bighug::bighug::bighug:
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2016
  51. Mocha aka Cold Play

    Mocha aka Cold Play Well-Known Member

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    Sep 23, 2015
    It indeed will take some time to get my head on straight again.....but just seeing her be more like herself after today was encouraging. Her purr made my day. Maybe my week.
     
  52. Jill & Alex (GA)

    Jill & Alex (GA) Senior Member Moderator

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    Gosh, can I ever relate to that feeling! Those little things make such a difference! :)
    Keep lovin' on her...
     
  53. Sienne and Gabby (GA)

    Sienne and Gabby (GA) Senior Member Moderator

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    I agree with Jill's observation. When Gabby was diagnosed with kidney disease, it hit me like a ton of bricks. It took me more time than I would have liked to push myself out of the inertia to start reading and digesting information. Let us know what you need. If it would help to have one or two people summarize, we can do that.
     
  54. tiffmaxee

    tiffmaxee Well-Known Member

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    Nov 15, 2013
    Just like with FD, not all cats are the same. One mg of ondansetron is a good starting dose but plenty of cats need more. The vet to n one if tge lists has said over and over that it is not a drug with many side effects and often more that one mg is necessary. It isn't fully absorbed just like cerenia when given orally. My Tiffany needed 2mg and she was small. I think later on she needed more but I didn't realize it. Through use over the years the vets have found out more about it. It's trial and error. I would start with the smallest dose and if it doesn't help try 2 mg before deciding whether or not it works. If I hDnt done that with Max I never would have gotten him off the appetite stimulant cyproheptadine which vets often use too large a dose by the way. Large as he is just a sliver got him eating. I haven't used it in a long time since I figured out Max's nausea dose. Just my two cents from using this for 8 years with two cats and countless cats I've read about.
     
  55. Mocha aka Cold Play

    Mocha aka Cold Play Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2015
    And, my pain meds impair concentration. So, what may be digested by another when combined with my own fears of being on this path before make it harder. I may just ask for that help. Thank you!
     
  56. tiffmaxee

    tiffmaxee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2013
    Ondansetron only works for about 8 hours which is why I would give one mg twice a day. I out it in a gelcap and chase with baby food or water syringes if necessary. It usually works in 30-45 minutes for my cats.

    Cerenia is given once a day btw.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2016
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  57. Mocha aka Cold Play

    Mocha aka Cold Play Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2015
    I am encouraged for today because my prior journey with kidney failure began with utter shutdown of stool and then only drank and refused to eat. That terrible memory returned to me, of force syringing food to him and that was the only way he got it after the kidney was diagnosed. He was lethargic but not eating on his own never returned. He struggled to stand in the litter and try to have a stool and I had to hold him. She is no where near that. So, I try to realize it could be better.

    Just one question, can a cat diagnosed where she is currently possibly get OFF fluids and just have the diabetes left or is that highly improbable? I won't hold anyone to their opinion, just looking for experience.
     
  58. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    It depends. Her renal failure could be acute instead of chronic although I would tend to say with the phosphorus being what it is, it is most likely chronic. I had a cat with acute renal failure due to a virus who then went on to live another 11 years and never needed fluids again. I was just wondering if there is any possibility in the move that Mocha could have become exposed to something that could have caused an acute issue.

    Take a deep breath. Watch this video we made on How to Give Subcutaneous Fluids at home because it will be so much easier than how your vet explained it. I also had cats on phosphorus binders (I used aluminum hydroxide powder) and they never hesitated to eat but Amy has good info on another one that might be more palatable for Mocha. I have seen the P values come way down with binders and low phosphorus foods. I think you can get Mocha back into feeling better and doing better. But just take today to breathe.
     
  59. Mocha aka Cold Play

    Mocha aka Cold Play Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2015
    Is this flavored binder on the internet or a prescription?
     
  60. Amy&TrixieCat

    Amy&TrixieCat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2011
    It's not a prescription, but so far it is only available through vets' offices. I don't know if your current vet can get this for you or not, but it's worth asking. And if he can't, maybe if you're luck enough to find another vet, he or she can get it.

    Here is the link: ConSeal AIH by Bock Labs

    There are other options that can work well, too - some are better than others. This just happens to work well for Trix. It's shaped like a vitamin, but not hard like a vitamin. I shave off little bits and mix it into each serving of food I give her (she eats multiple times per day).
     
  61. Sienne and Gabby (GA)

    Sienne and Gabby (GA) Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    The aluminum hydroxide binder I used was odorless and tasteless.
     
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  62. Bobbie And Bubba

    Bobbie And Bubba Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2015
    Kari, hang in there sweetie. Mocha is one lucky kitty to have you as her bean. I am so glad you have all the resources here to help you decipher it all. I don't have any experience with CKD but I can send hugs and prayers of healing and strength for you. :bighug:
     
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  63. Mocha aka Cold Play

    Mocha aka Cold Play Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2015
    Tricia has so graciously offered to send me some to use with Mocha. I am praying she turns around. She was great this morning but not so late afternoon and now.
     
  64. Mocha aka Cold Play

    Mocha aka Cold Play Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2015
    Bobbie, I need them both. Thank you for following my sweet fur.
     
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  65. Dyana

    Dyana Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    About the blood pressure tests. I called around to different vets in the area and found one the did "have the equipment" to test the blood pressure. I went to this new vet about 5 times to get J.D.'s blood pressure tested.
    After that, my regular vet all of a sudden was able to test blood pressure, because she would haul all the testing equipment from their surgery into the exam room. I would call around, when you have a chance.
     
  66. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    Kari

    You are in such a large area that you might check into mobile vets and see if one has a Doppler to check the BP at your house. It's a small machine and all the mobile vets here in Tucson have them.
     
  67. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Just wanting to send you some encouragement, Kari. Punkin had the beginnings of kidney disease and making a switch to low phosphorus food and adding subq fluids every other day made a huge difference.

    I didn't see lab results from a urinalysis. Did the vet do urine tests?

    In case this is helpful: Stimulating a kitty's appetite

    The one thing I'd suggest is that you copy the link to this condo today and paste it into the comments section on her spreadsheet so you can go back to it and reread it as you need to. When you have a lot of information it can help to go back and reread things. You've got lots of great information here from people with a lot of experience with kidney disease.

    :bighug:
     
  68. Mocha aka Cold Play

    Mocha aka Cold Play Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2015
    I needed that. Great idea by the way to save in the spreadsheet.:) So how long were fluids given? Was there a time they were no longer needed?

    I saw the note about urinalysis. This is why the vet seems uneasy with me and my questions. I saw that as I left though I asked for it when I came in. I can ask him when he is going to do the urinalysis. He is on the conservative side and most of the time I am ok but when I don't feel comfortable with it, he senses that. It is a struggle and right now I now I need those fluids on Sunday. My guess is he wants to give fluids and retest. That is how he did for my male but no urinalysis. Perhaps he thinks that is invasive and the blood shows conclusive info. Is the treatment different if one of those conditions is found? If not, that would be the reason. I know the responses. And, if the same, I agree with him. It is what it is. Let's not be invasive if it does not yield a better course of treatment.

    Thankfully, she eats the Beyond dry chicken, as it is softer but no grains. She is turning away from two wets that she loved and the salmon pure bites and any treat. I am just glad she is eating.

    I see no real issue in the litter box. She is urinating and she has had several stools today. Not the case with my prior case. It just perplexes me. Something new to learn. DH has medical tests tomorrow all day.

    If the weather is good, as expected near 50, I want to take her by leash in our old backyard that is fenced off and let her roam with me. I don't know what the future holds but she knows the word "outside" and I have been saying it to her today. I think that would be good for her body to enjoy that again. The house is still on the market and don't know how many times that may be possible or she may be up for it. It is not far from the appointment.
     
  69. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    I'm not sure if you mean that he hasn't done a urinalysis, or he has results but didn't give them to you. I think you mean he didn't do one. One thing that a urinalysis shows is how well the kidneys concentrate the urine. The test that's called "urine specific gravity" measures that, I believe. Tracking changes in the USG can tell a story about what's happening in the kidneys.

    When you say you don't see any issues in the litter box, what exactly do you mean? The concern with kidney disease is that they pee an excessive amount because they can't concentrate their urine. Litter box clumps can get very large. Although because I add water to my non-diabetic cats' food, I still have large pee clumps.

    Punkin continued getting fluids for the rest of his life. Once you have the hang of it, it's not a big deal. Yes the needle is a bit large. You can use a smaller one but it takes longer to give the fluids. Fluids did seem to help him feel better. We bought this tubing that had a port so that one could add things to the fluids. We gave him his fluids while he was eating because he didn't seem to mind anything if he was eating. We hung the bag on a clothes hanger, then hung that from the top of a doorjamb. He ate on the floor. I understand it speeds up the fluids delivery if you have a large drop from the bag to the cat, but that's not essential if you have another system that works well for you, like others have mentioned the kitchen counter worked for them. Ruth/Tiger suggested this harness for helping to give subq fluids: http://www.ezivharness.com/eziv_site_002.htm I haven't used it but thought it looked intriguing.

    Is Mocha getting Vit B12? My vet said that often a senior cat can improve dramatically with Vit B12 shots. We found punkin had more energy once he started getting them. Vit B12 is also given as a preventative for pancreatitis. It can be given subq, although once we started giving fluids we gave them in the port and they diluted and were given with the fluids. One less poke for punkin.
     
  70. Mocha aka Cold Play

    Mocha aka Cold Play Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2015
    No urine taken.

    No B 12 but I do have apparently a great supplement of vitamins for her: Liquitinic 4x that he says is great. I may sryinge some wet and put it in it.

    Is the bp taken by a cuff? That is what he says but that sounds perhaps wrong.

    Her litter habits are the same as predx diabetes and even then these tests were normal for kidney. She never covers urine or stool. Stool improved since insulin to not be as hard. I am not seeing any change to the urine from pre diabetes and normal kidneys.
     
  71. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Yes, punkin's BP was taken by cuff. I think they can measure either the tail or leg, but hopefully someone else will speak to that.

    I see the Liqui Tinic here. I'm not sure about the pros/cons of getting it orally vs subq. @Marje and Gracie knows more about this than me.
     
  72. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    The vet can do the urine test with urine you collect at home. The main thing is to check her urine specific gravity so all you need is a little urine for him to test. I am hoping he has a refractometer; I have one at home so let's hope he at least has that.

    Cats with CKD need B vitamins to help with anemia. These cannot be give by injection because what they need is methylB12 and mulitB. Injectable B12 is usually cyanocobalamin which is great for intestinal issues but doesn't help ward off anemia. Personally, I think the Liquitinic has a bunch of junk in it that i wouldn't want my CKD cat to have.

    Here is the info on Vitamin B supplementation for CKD cats. I used the Vitacost methylcobalamin caps that were 500 mcg and divided them up into two doses each day. I also used the Jarrows BRight (1/10 capsule a day divided into a couple doses). My kitties with CKD never had a hematocrit (HCT) below 28% which is pretty good for s CKD cat. It would have been good for the vet to run a superchem/cbc so we could see Mocha's HCT because you generally don't start the B vitamins until the HCT is below 30%. If it gets below 20%, much bigger guns are needed.

    I know you don't want to think about long-term fluids. My one CKD kitty got them daily for six months and then we were able to give them every other day because her creatinine dropped way back down. My other more recent CKD kitty got fluids every single day for four years (he's the one in the video). Neither of them ever minded it.
     
  73. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Thanks for jumping in, Marje! :)
     
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  74. Mocha aka Cold Play

    Mocha aka Cold Play Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2015
    Has anyone gone thru yowling? Happened right after lights out. Periodically since 11 pm. Some heavy winds but currently not bad. I put the rescue remedy on. She appears to b purring now but it may come back. Maybe not unique to her because the 2nd cat was not on the bed all night and she always is.
     
  75. Tricia Cinco(GA) & Harvey

    Tricia Cinco(GA) & Harvey Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2011
    My Cinco yowls at any given time for no apparent reason. High winds could have unsettled her. If she's purring now, she was probably just being a cat.
     
  76. Mocha aka Cold Play

    Mocha aka Cold Play Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2015
    yep she is purring like crazy and guessing what will happen when I try to get some sleep. She is yowling by our exit door. I have only ever heard her make this noise when she plays not just to make it. Will try to sleep again. Have a good day!
     
  77. Mocha aka Cold Play

    Mocha aka Cold Play Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2015
    Refuses to eat or drink and did not move when I got up. All curled in what I know now is "meatfloaf."
     
  78. Bobbie And Bubba

    Bobbie And Bubba Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2015
    Oh Kari, I feel so badly for you and Mocha. Sending lots of vines!
     
  79. Dyana

    Dyana Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Sending vines to Mocha to feel better, and eating vines to Mocha too.
     
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  80. carfurby (GA)

    carfurby (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2012
    Sending prayers. :bighug::bighug:
     
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  81. Amy&TrixieCat

    Amy&TrixieCat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2011
    Hopefully once you get her settled in with things like the phosphorous binder and regular anti-nausea meds, her appy should improve. We had lots of ups and downs at first with Trixie, too.

    In the meantime, do you have any baby food on hand? Sometimes when a kitty doesn't feel good, they like simple meat baby food. You just have to be sure it's very plain - just meat, no onion, garlic, etc.

    More prayers from us.
     
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  82. Nancy and Scotty

    Nancy and Scotty Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2014
    Kari, I am at the hospital today for minor surgery but wanted to say I am so sorry Mocha is feeling so bad, I will be praying for you both.
     
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  83. Paula

    Paula Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2014
    Sending a ton of healing vines for Mocha. :bighug::bighug::bighug:for you.
    You are doing great job!
     
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  84. tiffmaxee

    tiffmaxee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2013
    Kari, the urinalysis is needed to tell as Julie said how well the urine is being concentrated. If dilute bacteria won't always show up and a culture should be done anyways. A large jump like that often means infection. I was actually hoping for one with Max to explain his big jump. Unfortunately it didn't show up. Max doesn't act sick though and Mocha does. My vet is conservative too which is why the urinalysis was done to confirm what was going on with Max.I really think there might be a fixable cause for this. I doubt the CKD will disappear but bet its's either an infection or acute attack for some reason. The urinalysis might also show if there are crystals and a possible stone. :bighug::bighug::bighug:
     
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  85. Tricia Cinco(GA) & Harvey

    Tricia Cinco(GA) & Harvey Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2011
    Kari, please don't lose hope. There are so many options to try. We're all concerned about you and Mocha.
     
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  86. Nancy and Scotty

    Nancy and Scotty Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2014
    Kari, I hope I haven't missed it but I don't see anything from you since yesterday morning, I hope everything is at least going okay.Thinking and worrying about you.
     
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  87. Olive & Paula

    Olive & Paula Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Prayers and hugs for Mocha.
     
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  88. Lydia--(Rosie & Basil) GA

    Lydia--(Rosie & Basil) GA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Hey, Kari. I hope everything is okay. Or as okay as it can be when you get hit with this particular hammer.

    It looks like Mocha was in a good mood yesterday afternoon. Sorry about those miserable BG numbers. But remember, she's more than a number.

    Hope you will get a moment to update us. And come let us all hug you. We're a smelly bunch--with all the cat treats all over our clothes--but we hug nice.
     
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  89. Bobbie And Bubba

    Bobbie And Bubba Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2015
    Hey Kari, just checking in to see how Mocha is doing. Please update us when you can. Until then continued healing vines. :bighug:
     
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