3/31 Jasper AMPS 399 / +2 354 / +5 260 / +7 197 / +9 209 / +12 312

I don't know if the higher than before he was even on insulin number is from the extra carbs he had because of the low the other day..but I'm going to go with that for now.


Anyway... GOOD NEWS! lol


I played with the syringe this morning and realized if I look at it sideways...lol... there IS some wiggle room between .5 and an empty syringe...lol... a tiny tiny amount of wiggle room but...nevertheless lol

So tonight depending on how today goes and what his PMPS number is and hopefully I get a nap in and can stay up or get up to test him at his nadir overnight....

I think I can start to give him a lower dose 2x a day instead of the .5 once a day after all.

I won't know that it's exactly .25 but ...it will be less than .5 and if I use the bottom of the black plunger top instead of the top of the black plunger top to make up for the lack of extra lines... at least it will be a reasonably consistent dose every time. I'm bad at explaining stuff ... but... yeah.

 

@Bobbie And Bubba @Judy and Boomer @Marje and Gracie
Someone has pics of what those doses look like, I’m tagging some people

 

Super happy to hear your gonna give 2x a day, remember if your in doubt just ask

 

awesome, thanks! I was going to take a used syringe and some food coloring to demonstrate clearly just for myself how big the difference really is but ... I really don't need to be wasting that kind of time with goofy projects like that! lol

 

I read back through the post yesterday and dosing once a day doesn’t really make sense to me. Neither does giving him 0.25u twice a day when he looks like he needs 0.5u twice a day. Just sayin’.

Are you aware of diabetic ketoacidosis? If a kitty has any infection (and we are not always aware of it), isn’t getting enough insulin, and then isn’t drinking or eating enough, they are being set up for DKA which can be deadly. I’m not meaning to use scare tactics on you but just trying to save you any potential issues. I don’t really understand the thought behind not giving a cat the insulin it needs.

If you scroll down on this post, you’ll see several examples of fine dosing from 0.25u and less.

 

"I don’t really understand the thought behind not giving a cat the insulin it needs" I don't know how much insulin the cat needs or more importantly how much insulin my cat can handle... until I start them on insulin and test them and see how they do. Which is what we're doing right now.

He had an infection when he was first diagnosed. After antibiotics and food change his numbers came way down. Now after insulin... they seem to be a bit higher...

He went down to 53 after just .5 ... and this am he was very high for him... which... after everything I've been reading and using his limited numbers so far... looks a lot like what others are calling a "bounce"...which means too much insulin for him.

So...

Since every cat is different... and this particular cat went to 53 with just .5 ... we're starting low and going slow.... and many cats go even lower at night than they do during the day...( as I just read on another post.).. and his 53 was during the day ... I'm going to continue to start low and go slow... and not risk hypo... and not have to give him high carb food which defeats the whole purpose of all of this...etc. and stick with what is best for our particular situation... which involves very busy parents one of which works 2 jobs and the other has multiple health issues... and continue to do the best we can with what we have. I work from home and have not been able to work since all this began, and our economic situation is already pretty dire. What we're doing right now is literally taking all my limited strength/attention/energy, I cannot add staying up all night every night worrying that I gave him too much insulin. I'm trying to recover enough to be able to manage what we are already doing and get back to work.

But I appreciate the advice, and thanks for that link does that apply to the u40 syringes for prozinc? I saw that earlier and thought it was just for u100 syringes for u100 insulin. I know you can use a conversion for different syringes but we're trying to keep it as simple as possible to try to reduce any mistakes or confusion and also the cost is a factor so I played with a used syringe and figured out how to give a smaller dose so, I'm glad we don't have to buy new syringes to give him smaller doses, that's a relief.

 

Incorrect. A bounce does not mean there is too much insulin. Bounces are very normal and happen to most of the cats here at some point.

The photos are U100 syringes. It will look different on a U40 syringe.

 

Ok , I thought someone said that a bounce is caused by too much insulin causing the body to overcompensate with sugar... do you have a link that explains "bounce"? I can google it but I get distracted easily... lol and I can never remember where I read things...

 

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, I'm going to reread it a few times... there are a lot of big words I don't recognize lol... but...


http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/what-is-a-bounce.108796/

This sounds like exactly what happened ... he went to 53... and then "up to 72 hours later" he had 2 very high amps for him...higher than before he was even on insulin.

 

What time do you test, feed and shoot?
Hoping you shoot tonight, like @Marje and Gracie said, hard to tell how much they need if you aren’t consistent with shooting every 12hr, you don’t have enough info on your spreadsheet cause your skipping evening shots, see what I mean, if you are doing to late in the am, try doing it earlier by 15min increments until you get to the time u want

 

The 53 from .5 is the info I'm going by... I might not have a lot of data but I know that .5 can bring him to 53... and I don't know what it would have gone to if I hadn't fed him right then... so I'm not going to risk that while I'm sleeping...

I read somewhere to dose based on the lowest numbers not the high numbers...and that makes sense to me right now with our specific situation.

I'm doing the best I can right now... and 53 is low enough for me... I'm not trying to get him any lower than that. If .5 once a day brings him to 53... then that might just be enough insulin for this particular cat ...at this particular time.

I am not psychologically prepared to see him at 53 and then say to myself... I think I need to give him even MORE insulin now...

It just doesn't make sense to me, and if it doesn't make sense to me, it's going to cause me a lot of extra stress, which makes me useless to him anyway.

I'm just too new to all of this , I have to take it slowly.

 

Not giving him insulin at night is why u are seeing the high numbers, at night, he needs out of those pink numbers, I don’t know anyone on here who does 1 shot a day, test a plus 2 and with enough info you will be able to see what he does, we are all just trying to help and we all get up if numbers say so in the middle of the night, you can’t go just by that 1 low

 

I also wanted to ask what the vet said to give him and how many times a day

 

I'm doing the best I can.

 

New to all of this as well, but I would just chime in say I know this is all very overwhelming and that you're trying to do the best for Jasper. There are many helpful and very knowledgeable folks in this forum. I would suggest reading as much as you can regarding prozinc, listening to the feedback of members here, and keeping the lines of communication open with your vet.

I can understand being scared by a low number. We haven't had anything terribly low yet, but as a workaholic who is gone during the day, that thought scares me.

I think it's really likely that inconsistency in the numbers you are seeing is a correlation to the inconsistency of dosing. If the thought of dipping too low frightens you, set an alarm or two to check a bit before night cycle nadir, and get a test in before bed to make sure it's decelerating at a reasonable pace.

 

That is a discussion on Somogyi which is not the same as bouncing. Somogyi has not been documented as occurring in cats and that post was written by a new member in 2013.

Let me track down a better post on bouncing and I’ll come back and post it for you.
Here’s one good discussion about Somogyi vs bouncing.

 

Hi there, sorry I didn't get the tag until now.

I agree with Marje that I would hold the .50 dose . The 53 you got is still a safe number and was mid cycle or nadir number and the numbers naturally start to come up from that point. Also, you gave the prozinc 2 consecutive cycles at that point so you were starting to see what a .50 dose can do. And another point is that when you first start on a insulin, there can sometimes be a remarkable response at first with a lower number, then they level out and the dose needs to be change.

After that 53, he bounced from seeing a lower number ( still safe , but low ) and it takes 3 days or 6 cycles for the bounce to clear. The only way to get the bouncing to stop or slow down is to get him into lower safe numbers and then his pancreas will stop panicking and dumping counter regulatory hormones into his system bringing his number up.

Insulin is best dosing every 12 hours and with lots of data you will start to see trends and patterns. I would advice to dose every 12 hours or you will see a lower cycle, then a higher cycle, getting nowhere quickly. If you are able to test in the evening, I would at least shoot the .25 again tonight and get some data. I do think you will probably be going back up to .50, but if the lower dose makes you more comfortable, at least give it every 12 hours so you will know if the dose is cutting it for him.

And regards to high carb food, you do want to have some in your pantry as there will be a time that it will be necessary to use. It takes time to get the right dose and to have their bodies learn to utilize it. This is a real dance this sugar dance with our sugar babies.

 

Thanks Bobbie

 

"The only way to get the bouncing to stop or slow down is to get him into lower safe numbers and then his pancreas will stop panicking and dumping counter regulatory hormones into his system bringing his number up. " Thats good to know. I had read that it lasts up to 72 hours so I assumed it would run its course on its own so that's interesting...

" If you are able to test in the evening, I would at least shoot the .25 again tonight and get some data." That was the plan and I am intent on sticking with a plan instead of being too reactionary as is my custom and creating all kinds of unnecessary variables. I think he should definitely get the .25 tonight...but it seems like not enough and .5 is too much for me to do during the night this night so...

I just fiddled around with a couple of used syringes and some colored water... trying to practice getting a "fat .25" if that makes sense... I practiced measuring the dosage with colored water so I could see it clearly and then shooting it onto a paper towel to compare how big the dose was...

I can see 3 different ways of giving what I'm calling ".25" ... of course there is not much noticeable difference even on the paper but...

The top of the plunger top, the middle of the plunger top, and the bottom of the plunger top... all do technically make different sized drops on the paper...

And I practiced a LOT lol .. so I *think* I can do a slightly bigger drop than he got this am without hitting the full .5... and since I've been reading they can go lower at night in general anyway... maybe that tiny lil bit more will help...

But...I'm trying not to feel defeated and just focus on the fact that now my neurotic brain can't keep insisting "maybe he only needs .25!" cause now I've tried .25 and it doesn't seem to do much.

Thanks so much for that info... it's very helpful!

 

I think I misread this but I think I get what you're saying now...

He's out of the bounce now probably?... but in order to prevent it from happening again over and over is to regulate him?

I think I get it...

 

You are doing good, Momma. Yes, there are a lot of variables in the syringe markings. A lot of us over in the Lantus forum use calipers to get a consistent dose as the machine marked units can vary up to .25 of a unit!

As far as your above question about being out of the bounce, theoretically, yes after 6 cycles. But, because he's hasn't received consecutive doses ( every 12 hours) the water are a bit muddy. Regulation takes time and patience. It is an exhausting dance. But, the more data you get, the more you understand how the insulin is working with Jasmine and it helps you with dosing strategy.

 

Thanks so much!

"A lot of us over in the Lantus forum use calipers to get a consistent dose as the machine marked units can vary up to .25 of a unit!" ... That... is insane... talk about variables.. This stuff is so complicated, I don't know how mere mortals do this! lol