4/5 Hank- Gum Day 2- AMBG- 78 PMBG- 83

Yay- Great number this morning Hankie... So pleased! Keep it up!





Weighed him with me (then me without him) this morning. Think he has lost another +/- 1 lb on top of the lb he lost the first week or so after DX when he was so sick. He was also maybe +/- 2lbs more still than this at his peak weight in the fall which was last time I'd weighed him before all this began.

He is eating...just small amounts. I think he still really misses his dry food. if I put a bowl of even Evo dry in front of him he'd probably scarf it down.
He does turn his nose up at soome of the canned we're trying. But even with the one's he likes, he eats a few bites, then that's it...walks away.
If I bring it to him I can ususally coax some bites.. But I'm not feeling like he is all in all not getting enough calories or nutrition with what he eats in a day.
He DOES need to lose weight, but this is probably too rapid. he never had this problem before...was always a big boy, but getting less so.
How do I get him to eat ENOUGH, but not too much? And to balance the notion of losing some weight being ok...but making sure he is getting enough nutrition to stay healthy?
Should I feed him a little more Evo dry for the time being to be sure he's eating enough? I have only been using it by teaspoonfuls sporadically to entice him to try a wet, etc..not daily.
He LOOKS great, he does not look like he is starving. But he getting lighter. I'm the one that needs to lose the 5 lbs

 

Re: 4/5 Hank- Gum Day 2- AMBG- 78

Hi Betty. Congrats on the trial. I didn't know you guys had started, btu that's great! Sending you plenty of green. :mrgreen:

 

Re: 4/5 Hank- Gum Day 2- AMBG- 78

Thanks Traci-
Ya'll aren't far behind. It's in the water lately, haven't you noticed? Thanks for the green :mrgreen: wishes. We only want to see green, just green! So far, so good and I'm happy.

 

Re: 4/5 Hank- Gum Day 2- AMBG- 78

Another beautiful number for Hank. He is doing so well, yeah!

Sorry that Hank isn't thrilled about eating the wet food so much. You are right that it isn't good for him to lose weight too fast.

Some people whose kitties had to give up the dry food experience the same trouble you are having with Hank. They just would rather have their dry again.

I forget, have you used the freeze-dry chicken pieces to crumble on top of the wet food? I know that Pat/Shadow/Raja uses that technique with Shadow to get him interested.

PetSmart has them in the dog food treats aisle. Also some people use Halo freeze-dried chicken treats.
I've also heard some people sprinkle Parmesan cheese on the food, or Fortiflora is appetizing to others, or tuna water.

Put "feeding advice needed" or something like that in your first post title... maybe others have some good ideas to help.

Good luck!

 

Re: 4/5 Hank- Gum Day 2- AMBG- 78

Morning Betty! When I brought Scrabble in last week for his surgery/dental he has lost about 1/2 a pound since his diagnosis which was about a month and a half ago. When he was diagnosed he lost about 3 pounds. He seems to eat quite a bit and I don't know if it is just the diabetes or that he is getting older? Maybe now that Hank is otj he will gain some weight back? Looks like another great day for you today, nice ambg!!!

 

Re: 4/5 Hank- Gum Day 2- AMBG- 78

CD-
Halo IS what his treats are. he loves those..my pocketbook, not so much.
And I don't know how to expalin this so much through the airwaves..not sure it is translating.

Hank NEEDED to lose weight, without a doubt. I think he was close to 22 lbs in the fall. At vet #1 on Feb 17, he weighed 19.9. I was thinking, oh good, he's not as fat as i thought. Then the next day got his DX. What i now realize is he'd probably been diabetic awhile, and lost a couple lbs before we even went in.
I used to wonder why he was so overweight wehn he never really ate alot. BUT it was dry food AND a little canned every day or 2. He didn't have a humongous appetite. he just was sedintary and slept all the time. I thought he was a middle aged- cat and this was normal. THEn after the DX while i was in between vets and he was untreated, he got really sick and lost another 1 1lb... TOO fast. So there was this dichotomy. On the one hand he needs to lose weight, he is overweight and that likely contributed to his dignsosis. but TOO fast was bad as he could get fatty lipidosos. He had scant keytones when I took him on March 2nd/3rd..just before getting on insulin. The impression I got was make sure he eats for now. But ultimately he'll need to get some weight off.
Once I got him on insulin, his weight levelled off at the 19 lbs.
During this whole time, i was also transitioning him to canned food. He eats it, some he likes better than others. But for the big boy he is, he jsut doesn't have a huge appetite, never did. Which makes me realize how BAD the dry food was for him. He wasn't eating huge amounts of it but still made him fat.
Vet 3 also theorized Hank may have had a bout of pancreatitis that brought the diabetes on....unsupported hypothesis, but a possibility.
So when he initially was losing weight, it could have been :
a) because he was sick, had diabetes, keytones, etc..
b) had a pancreatitis flare up
c)was mad and missed his dry food so didn't eat as much
d) I transitioned him too abruptly from the dry (which I did) and his tummy was upset for awhile
e) he didn't like some of the foods I gave him so wasn't eating as much, had a lesser appetite, etc
f) JUST being on canned food alone...he's lost weight naturally
g) still a xcrab addict at heart even 6 weeks later and would scarf a bowl of Innova dry if put in front of him?

On the one hand he needs to lose weight, on the other hand, it's not good to lose weight too fast. Which is it?

He looks better now. but after evening out at 19 lbs for a couple weeks as his diabetes got more controlled, he now has started losing again.


he IS eating the canned food he likes. if he doesn't like it, it will just sit there til i open something he prefers. But even on the stuff he LIKES (like his old staple Wellness canned which he's eaten previous to all this) he is sort of 'picking' at it.

This is DIFFERENT THAN WHEN HE WAS SICK. Then he seemed to have no appetite, i would heat food and feed him by hand. Now he seems to just be eating like a skinny person eats. Now he has an appetite, it's just rather small. Doesn't at all seem sick though. Likes the food he likes. Just doesn't scarf the bowl down. But then he never really did before when he was fatter either. I put maybe 1/4 can in a bowl, add some water drops, and sometimes heat it for 1-2 seconds if it has been cold. He may eat only 1/3 or less of that. Sometimes he comes back for leftovers, sometimes they remain leftover and gets too old and we toss. He is almost NEVER cleaning his plate. i replenish again late day and/or eve, usually leaving food out over night, tossing what's left in the morning. . But he's not polishing the bowl. He free feeds so can eat when he wants.

If i put a few pieces of evo in it, i may coax another couple bites from him. I've just noticed him feeling lighter and weighed him now a couple times ..it's close to another lb lost recently. BUT HE SEEMS OTHERWISE HEALTHY.
So may not necessarily be a bad thing. i just worry if he is getting enough nutrition.

Maybe this is just his new weight on wet food? If he would eat at least a full can a day, I think that would be better. Not sure if it's necessary to worry or not at this point. he does look really good. Coat is pretty.
I don't want to mess up his otherwise great progress with the Evo, but know he needs to get sustinence. OY! What to do?? Nothing? Anything?

 

Re: 4/5 Hank- Gum Day 2- AMBG- 78

You know after understanding how Hank is eating... it sounds pretty good. He did need to lose weight and he did. It could be he eats less because the food is better for him and he is satisfied more easily? My kitties also leave food in their bowls.. not all the time, but they rarely clean their plates.

If he is happy and seems content on the food he's eating, I wouldn't worry too much. His body may not need much more and as long as he is steady it sounds fine. I could suggest you watch how he does, but that is silly... you already do that! I am pretty sure you are on top of all of his needs.

Just keep doing what you are doing and he probably will find his best weight naturally. If he suddenly starts refusing most foods, then I'd look into his teeth issues.

I know what you mean about the Halo treats. Pat/Shadow told me about the ones from PetSmart that are more reasonable and a bigger bag too. You have to look in the doggy treat section.
It looks like this:

 

Re: 4/5 Hank- Gum Day 2- AMBG- 78

let's start with the simple -

DRY FOOD - NEVER, NO WAY, Don't give in to that thinking and give it. Oh if you give it, he will eat it. But that doesn't mean it's good for him as you've learned.

My cats if given a chance will pounce on the dry food. I tell them nope they can't have it and have to make due with wet.

Regarding the weight loss, I hear you. I don't have an answer for that. What I can tell you is that this may be his normal body weight and if it is, it's ok.

My cats don't always eat all the food I leave out for them. I do the same as you. I put out 2-3 bowls of food and leave it out until next feeding. My girls have always grazed and were never piggles and with wet they are doing the same.

It could be that pre-diagnosis and insulin he was eating more, as his body was starving and now that he's regulated, he doesn't need as much food to exist. As long as there is plenty of food available and he knows it, he won't feel the need to be a piggy and finish his bowl or else. He always knows fresh and more is available. This isn't a bad thing.

In addition to the wet and freeze dried, I do give treats of fresh cooked chicken - even the FF appetizers - but these are not meal replacements, as they aren't nutritionally complete.

If you do notice more weight loss that seems unnatural to you, then you may want to get some tests done to see if there is something else going on. For example hyper T can cause weight loss among other things.

And my last thought (for now) - I tried the step on the scale, hold the cat, step on again and got a really wacky reading. So, this may not be the most accurate method of testing weight. And what you may visibly be seeing is the fat loss and nothing more. As dry food tends to make cats fatter than normal.

And if you're looking for the least expensive freeze dried treat - go to king's wholesale online and type in pure bites. I buy the largest bag of chicken they sell and ounce for ounce it's cheaper than prime bites (pet smart) and halo. Still expensive but less than those.

 

Re: 4/5 Hank- Gum Day 2- AMBG- 78

Congrats on Day 2 Betty.
So now I understand the feeding questions in Max's Condo.
My Max used to weigh 22 pounds too when he was healthy (unhealthy right) and went
down to 16 pounds.
You are right to always be concerned about fatty liver as Max did have it twice.
Once when he was 2 and just when he was d/x with diabetes in Nov/09.
Of course I started shoving the food into him and thankfully my 3 cats transitioned
to wet pretty well. The sister civvies were a little harder but it was tough luck.
All the dry food was donated to a shelter.

When their numbers are lower, the food they eat gets into their body so it is very
possible that he just needs less now.
Max is eating less now too, but I am watching it. I am trying to "train" him to come for food
when he is hungry, rather than me bringing it to him all the time.
Give it a few days, now that he is not on insulin and see how his apy is.
You just might need to keep searching for the right food. EVO is very fattening and I was advised not to feed it to Max. We only use the legal FF.

 

Re: 4/5 Hank- Gum Day 2- AMBG- 78

Congratulations on Day 2 Betty & Hank!! Awesome stuff here :mrgreen:

 

Re: 4/5 Hank- Gum Day 2- AMBG- 78

thanks everbody for all the good advice. I just thought the initial freefall weight loss had stopped after getting him on insulin. He levelled out at 19lbs after losing what he had pre-DX and the subsequent 1 more that came off too quickly when he was sick-sick. He'd been holding his own since the insulin began until recently.
Then this 1 more lb still, that has come off seemingly way too quickly, less than 2 weeks.
My biggest concern is, that at +/- 18 lbs still, he is unlikely eating even 3/4 can a day TOTAL..maybe closer to 1/2 can? hard to know exactly as it's not all fed from the same can..and then some goes uneaten & gets tossed.
But theoretically he could be getting less than 80 or 100 calories a day. THAT is not enough for optimum health i don't think.
He needs more sustinance than he is getting. That's the worrying part, not the weight loss, per se'.

This last lb sort of fell off. I'd be happier if he'd lose that over 3 mos or so, not in 2 weeks like the previous lb when he was sick.

He gets hungry, but eats 2 bites then walks away. Kind of ambivolent. EXCEPT for the chicken treats which are like crack to him. THOSE he would eat by shovels if i let him.

This is where i wish we had a vet who really knew him to tell me if this is ok or not. I'm just going to keep watching.
it's there if he wants it..


has he turned into Kate Moss?

 

Re: 4/5 Hank- Gum Day 2- AMBG- 78

Oh, and CD..I heard about the prime bites elsewhere as well. They are 13.99 for the big bag at Petsmart...still pricey, but a little better. The guy I spoke to said they would price match if I found them cheaper anywhere...INCLUDING ONLINE!

BTW, you kow what's funny?? I posted on this topic (chicken treats) on the main forum last night. Today when I was googling for the prime bites online, MY FORUM POST came up in google!

SPIES!!!

 

Re: 4/5 Hank- Gum Day 2- AMBG- 78

Maui was about 14 pounds prior to diagnosis - she dropped to around 9, then stayed there while getting off dry and onto wet and once she got regulated and off insulin, she gained back most of that weight and is now 13.5 pounds - which is her good weight - at least it looks good on her.

how old is hank? I hear what you're saying and am wondering if a full blood workup may be a good idea - and get a T4 and free T4 test too. Just to make sure nothing is going on for concern.

 

Re: 4/5 Hank- Gum Day 2- AMBG- 78

Good looking numbers.

I know how you feel about trying to get them to eat enough/ Tess transitioned to wet easily, but it was a struggle to get her to eat enough. Gradually I think she got used to it and for the last 2 weeks or so her appetite suddenly picked up. Now she will just about eat a 5.5oz. can /day, she's only 9.5 lbs. though. Something just clicked and she started to eat more.

Check the calories per can on J&B's list. Dr. Lisa's guidelines call for a minimum of 15 kcal./lb. I deal is optimal weight x 13.6 +70 for kcal./day. Her article on obesity has a lot of other info on managing cats weight too, not just weight loss.

 

Re: 4/5 Hank- Gum Day 2- AMBG- 78

I hear ya on the weight thing... Tugger is a tubby dude. Always has been. I was worried about it for a long time, had three separate vets tell me he was fine, just a big boy and not to worry about it. He topped out at 25 pounds a few years ago. Lost a bit running from the dog after he came to live with us (down to 19.9) Where he hung till he lost weight before the diagnosis, a lot of weight. He looked bad, fast. He weighed 15.1 the day of his dx. He's put almost every bit of it back on since then though. I weighed him the other day, 19 pounds exactly. I still worry about the weight, I'd like to see him at about 16 pounds if he could get there without me seeing his hips n backbones, lost over time in a healthy way. But to be honest, right now I'm just so danged happy that he's eating canned food that I'm not going to worry about weight loss for any of them right now. One battle at a time.

Have you tried different textures of foods? (I think you said you've tried different flavors and brands?) Some kitties prefer pate stuff, others like bits n bites or shredded stuff. Maybe try some different options? FF has a chunky chicken and a chunky turkey that are 5% I think, they're sort of pate sort of chunky. If you have a Petco they have a line of canned foods called Soulistic that are supposed to be 1-3% and the two I've tried on my Bella (the picky eater girl) were both shreds of chicken and fish chunks. Reasonably priced for one cat, about .89 a can (I bought a case of one flavor that Bella adores and I give it to her for special treats when I don't see her eating enough of the regular offerings)

Tux and BB don't much like shredded stuff or chunks, they like pate and with hot water added please and thank you. Echo doesn't care, as long as it doesn't bite him first he'll eat it (it just comes back out exorcist style when it's beef) but I think if he ever needs an appy stim I can just use Wendy's fries. Every time we bring home fast food he goes nuts. But the kids found him wandering outside of a Wendy's about to wander his blind little butt into four lanes of 55mph traffic. I think he associates that smell with home. I would think he'd run the other way, but nope, you need eight arms to fend him off while you're eating it lol.

I have an appointment Wednesday to interview a vet, I'll ask him about weight loss/speed and see what he says. I'll also ask how many ozs of wet/canned food he thinks they should be taking in. What else do you wanna know? =) I've got a list, no problem adding a few more general q's to it =)

 

Re: 4/5 Hank- Gum Day 2- AMBG- 78

Great number hope all is well your way :YMHUG: cat_pet_icon

 

Re: 4/5 Hank- Gum Day 2- AMBG- 78

hey Lisa, Thanks for the wishes!

oh Marvie, thanks. I have all kinds of questions since I've been going this mostly Vetless.
Let me think on it and I'll let you know. the one I went to didn't even encourage MY questions much less extras!
let's all chime in, they'd love that I'm sure!


So, here's a board question....

If i am going to do spot checks during our trial, which would be the best times? I realize it's not absolutely necessary, and i may not do them every day, but as i went down earlier considering a +6, I thought, well why?... that was more about trying to find the Nadir, and there isn't one. (not that i ever found it before)

He did eat a snack a little less than 3 hrs. ago. Is this a good time to see how he processed that?
I know they say if he has a high am/PM bg, you feed and wait 3-4 hrs to test..to see what his body did. BUT, we didn't test before snack time so nothing to 'check', per se'.

Maybe more information gained from 1-2 hours after food?

Or other ideas..?

Anyone?


thanks

 

+48 PMBG- 83 I'm good with that! Good Boy, Hankie!


Jumped right on his testing table for me...all by himself. Assumed position. He has this part down.



Ate some bites of Cowboy cookout after PMBG. I fed from only this can today to try and better gauge what he is eating. Since this morning he's had just under 2/3 can +/-. He ate just a bite or two then walked away as typical lately. I followed him with the bowl and a spoon and fed him some more bites. This is how we've been doing it. If brought to him, he will usually eat a little. Why am I bringing Hank's food to him in bed? I'm going to have to train him to come get it himslef again like Randi...maybe she can give me some tips. We never used to have these issues.


I sure LOVE this pumpkin Boy (did I mention that?)

betty

 

Heheh Hank's training you very well! Got you following around begging him to eat, breffis in bed, treats out the wazzoo.... oh yes, he's sitting back laughing maniacally :lol: Thinking "Ha! I feel great and this crazy bean is all worried about me... let's see how long we can play this out."



Got that list of questions ready? Tomorrow's the day. New vet doesn't need to know they're from someone halfway across the country You can PM me if you'd rather. I'm around all day today.


Awesome numbers Hank, now eat some food so your mamabean will worry less, it's not good for those beans to worry. If you worry her too much she might have to take you to the V.E.T. or even farther away to find a NEW one. I know you don't want that! You've worked too hard to get to this gum-chewing stage. Don't mess it up dude!
~Tugger