4th day on new dose- no improvement in bg!

We increased to 1.5u pro zinc on 9-29, but his bgs are not improving! I am doing a curve tomorrow and have to give it to the vet on Monday. What would you do if he was your kitty? All his numbers are in his ss. Any advice is appreciated. As a sidenote, he eats at +0(1st shot-1/2 can ff and 1/16 c core), +4.5(1/2 can ff), +9(1/2 can ff), +12(2nd shot)(1 can ff) and +18.5 (1/8 c core). We are working up to having all his meals EXCEPT +18.5 be wet.
Thanks!
C+c

 

Unfortunately, it's going to be hard to tell until you get rid of ALL the dry food.

Also [unless your kitty is a hoover kitty is is overweight or overweight prone] I am a proponent of free feeding. Free feeding is when they have food at all times. When there is no timed feeding. According to SACN 4th ed [I still need to read 5th ed] normal cats eat 10-20 small meals per day. Free feeding most closely approximates this natural behavior. Also free feeding reduces the effect of food on the curve. If you kitty is a hoover kitty then there are timed feeders that can help best approximate the free feeding. Putting a little water in the food help is from drying out when it sits out for a while. Also some here will freeze their food in ice cube trays then put out the food cubes so kitty can eat them later when they thaw. I was content with just adding some water.

As for your shooting [if you feel comfortable with getting the conversion right] I might also encourage you to look into the U100 needles to use with the U-40 insulin. They will help you get a more consistent dosing going on. Instructions for this can be found in the PZI Sticky - please read them and if you decide to use the U100s please print out the conversion chart and put it somewhere obvious - like on your fridge.

With PZI [and especially ProZinc] we usually advocate starting at 1 U and moving up in .2u increments and holding those doses at least 3-6 cycles [I'm more on the shorter side of that]. I've seen others here advocate holding doses longer but I'm for making smaller & faster changes. When I was trying to get H regulated on less than 1u of ProZinc I changed the dose initially in 0.05u increments about every 3 cycles.

While the cat is on dry food I would be concerned about raising the dose too much. Once they get into the low carb [less than 10% as % kcal] wet ONLY their numbers tend to go down and then you have to be on your toes about reducing the dose. Good news is that you are testing! But it can be dangerous if one has a cat on a high dose of insulin, to compensate for an inappropriate diet, then one changes to low carb wet only; their insulin needs can be reduced dramatically when one may be giving large amounts of insulin. Many times when folks come in here on higher doses of insulin and they switch to low carb wet only, we advocate they drop back to 1u and re-regulate to be safe. So raising the dose at this point is IMHO a little bit of getting the cart before the horse.

And keep in mind this is a marathon and not a sprint. I know you are concerned for your kitty and want this diabetes stuff to go away ASAP. Getting rid of the dry food will hopefully help you get their quicker. Once you switch COMPLETELY to low carb wet ONLY diet then it may take up to 3-7 days before you even START to notice any difference. Then, after that, some here spend up to 30-45 days just getting a handle on the insulin and kitty getting used to getting insulin. And, working though other issues like oral infections or other potential issues can increase this time.

I would note somewhere in your SS that during this time your kitty is getting dry food and then note in the notes when you are completely free of it.

Just for background too there are other things besides inappropriate diet that can keep a kitties numbers elevated. You can see my "mental list" here:
viewtopic.php?p=77223#p77223
But honestly we need to eliminate the dry food and making sure he is not sneaking it from other sources first. The sooner you get rid of it the sooner you can hopefully start seeing improvements.

Hopefully others will be along to give their $0.02.

 

Sorry if I sound like a jerk, but we will be keeping him on dry core at the 18.5 feeding. He is used to eating on this schedule for the past 5+ years and I am not going to leave wet food in his spinner for his 1:30am feeding, nor will I be waking up at 1:30 every night to feed him wet. Wet canned food, that is open, spoils at room temperature, just like human food would (would you feed your child spaghettios that have been open and at room temp for 5 hours? I wouldn't!). So dry is my only option for that meal. We are weaning him off dry for all the rest of his meals. He is a Hoover. If I put all his food down at one time, it would be gone in minutes and he wouldn't have anything to eat the rest of the day. That is why we do frequent small meals.

 

No jerk to it. If you kitty is a hoover as I mentioned there are timed feeders that will help you get him the right amount of wet food. I have expressed a couple methods to keep the food "fresh." You have to understand that cats to not get sick from many of the diseases children can get sick from. At times, I used to leave food out for 12 hours. Personally, I eat food that's been left out 12 hours frequently - pizza most often. So yes I would feed food that had been out 12 hours to any child I had but I would probably not feed them any spaghettios. As for the schedule, if he is a hoover then there should be no problem with changing the schedule if necessary.

There are many many owners here that feed all wet low carb food ONLY. They are busy folks with busy lives and they have somehow figured it out and in the meantime do not make their cats sick from rotting food.

You do not need to wake up.

I would suggest you search this board for timed feeders or post in Health about timed feeders.

In the mean time I hope you don't mind of I sound like a jerk but I cannot advocate you upping the dose until you have completely removed the dry food from his diet. I really do want to help you and your kitty. I encourage you to post in Health about ways to make the wet low carb food work with your kitty's hoover limitation and the rest of your life. And use the search feature on the board here. And as I said I hope others will be along to give you their $0.02.

 

We have a timed feeder- that's how he gets his 1:30 am feeding (and ones when I'm not home). I don't feel comfy leaving wet food out that long. If anyone has another idea, I'd be glad to consider it!

 

I highly suggest you post in Health too about your concerns and inability to remove the dry food. That will get you more input. If you like, feel free to cross link back to this topic. It sounds like you have all the tools and are ready to go but just need to find your comfort level.

Please tell them that your kitty is a Hoover and that you already have a timed feeder.

 

I'm wondering if you might find him easier to regulate with dry food spaced out more evenly or not. You may need to do some experimenting really to find out how the food affects him and how to work things best. For reference, when Bix was on (LC so to speak, d/m & MD) dry food he needed about 4u of insulin and still wasn't regulated, vs. on LC wet food he did fine on 1.5 units or less (though it took about 1.8 to get him to good #s, and then from there he backed down quickly to more like 1.2u). So I'm just wondering how that one dry meal will affect his BG - could be one big spike after that, or could be the dry lasts long enough in their system to keep the BGs overall more even, I'm just not sure. My point/concern, is that you may end up finding his #s hard to work with if he gets one big spike from that dry meal, but then overall lower BGs the rest of the day.

I'm thinking you may just need to do some experimenting til you figure out what works.... I wouldn't stress though that you aren't seeing results on 1.5u. Even on all LC canned, many cats need more than that to see good #s.

On the timed feeder thing, I think some people do the frozen pucks with canned food, and then put that in the feeder?

 

p.s. just looking at the SS - assuming dry food continues in the picture, I would go to 2u if it were me...

 

Cats regularly eat raw prey: rats, birds bunnies and bugs included. Both you and I would probably have reservations about giving any children raw rat [fur and all]. Though I do eat steak tartar [raw] and sushi [and 12+ hour old pizza ]. Many here advocate giving cats a raw food only diet. They do very well with raw food. Humans would likely get sick eventually from things like salmonella, which is just one organism cats do not get sick from. Point is cats are not children. They are predators - different than humans. I encourage an open mind and doing the research.

LOL, and cats lick their butts too. Chances are we could get sick from e coli if we did that.

 

claudia we did find out the lowest carb dry for you did'nt we?
as long as you can completly ween the rest of the time...it's a start.
you may change your mind of your own volition when you see how dry food affects a cat in a hypo situation.
i understand your frustration with the 'strong' advise. you have to have been there and watched as kitties who ate dry food, changed diet to low carb canned before the arrival of their insulin and saw 100 or so point drops. or kitties who outgrew the need for insulin due to significant change in diet.
perhaps altho kitty is accustomed to the midnight feeding he can become reaccustomed to a meal before you go to bed and one when you wake up.
the sigificance cannot be overstated.
i'm going to look at your ss now.

 

ooooooooooooook, i vote time for a doscreas. anyone one eles....movin on up to 2u.
how long have you been testing... i am so embarrassed to say that i know you from health but will have to go back there to reaquaint myself with your particulars.

 

Thanks Lori. Yes, he is on the lower carb kibbles: core (cheaper and much much easier to find than the evo). We are thinking about moving his midnite feeding up gradually until it's gone. We will just add a wet feed during the day. If his #s don't look prettier in the amps, I will likely increase a smidge.

Gator- I understand that perhaps you mean well, however, please understand that I am a well- educated adult. I am also a naturalist, so I know how "wild" animals eat. That said, I will not be feeding my cats raw food. I am vegetarian and I will not handle raw meat, nor will I subject my daughter and unborn baby to salmonella and a host of other illnesses. I do and, and will continue to, feed them wet food, but I will do it in a way that I feel comfortable. Do not talk down to me, please.

 

claudia, gator can't help it...believe me he means very well.
i too am an avid vegetarian. i feed tom raw.
i never have to touch it becuase of the way it comes...frozen and in small patties.
are you still here?

 

Still here

 

ok, your gone...i was going to try for a conversation.
if you want to feed your cat in his best interest, as god intended, raw is good. it is the healthiest and lowest carb food he can get.
nature's variety raw rabbit, raw chicken, etc. comes in very easy to use little patties. you need never touch it or anything to contaminate your counter. it is perhaps less vulgar than the meant product in either dry or canned. i hate to think about what goes in THERE!
please understand...our knowledge is passed on, studied, and proven. you will grow to love gator like the rest of us given time. he's a guy! sometimes he talks funny :mrgreen:
but he is extremely smart and caring about feline diabetes.
we really want to help you and your cat. that's all.
believe me, as a vegetarian, and hater of the farming industry it is not easy to feed tom his natural diet.. i do it for him...not for me.
raise that dose...those #'s are too darn high. have you gotten a vial of keto-stix. a realy $ saver.

 

No pharms around me have the darn ketostix. May have to order online. I'll up his dose. Factory farming makes me want to puke- but humane, organic cat food is ridiculously expensive. I get that raw is best, but I have a baby who crawls around, pets the kitties faces, kisses their toes... Baby stuff. I don't feel comfy having raw meat anywhere in my house. At least the canned cr*p is cooked and a bit cleaner.

 

well that is questionable...the cleanliness part :lol: would you like to chat on the phone for a few minutes. i have a question or two for figuring out his dosing.

 

I use the petsafe 5 meal feeder and I use it to feed 1/4 cup of wet food at 4am every night.

Usually, I load it "cold" from the fridge around midnight.
Some folks freeze wet food into an ice cube tray or mini muffin tin, in batches, bag them, and then use them whenever food will be left out. I use to do this.
I have thrown a few ice cubes into the 4 empty food compartments next to the 1 food compartment when I was leaving it longer.
I have even thrown an ice cube onto the wet food if I'm sure it will be melted by the time it opens. The extra water is good for diabetics.

Have you seen Dr Lisa peirsons website? It's really interesting. It talks about this issue, and maybe you might get some tips. I seem to remember that she talks about dry food as spoiling as well. Heres the link: catinfo.org

 

Lori- in bed now next to sleeping hubby, sorry!
Thanks for the tips Nancy. That sounds like the feeder I have. I think he'd claw at it all nite if he smelled the stinky wet food in there, so that's another issue. We may just do away with the midnite feed

 

You may have to ASK for the ketodiastyx at the pharmacy. They do not require a prescription, but for some reason are kept behind the pharmacy counter here. I've bought them at several different grocery chains- you have Kroger in Cleveland don't you? Its a common diabetic supply-

I'll bet Hocks has them - green box link above

http://hocks.com/Merchant5/merchant.mvc ... de=A306373

 

i can send you a vial of keto stix...i am the newbie kits person. just pay postage?
you can donate a few bucks if you want.

 

nancy we posted at the exact same time...claudia if you can't get them..and soon, pm me.
i really think those #'s need to come down. 2 u in the morning, do you have time for a test at +3

 

Cody broke into the first feeder we had- the 2 meal feeder, but so far the 5 meal feeder has been OK. I did put lead weights in the ice compartment below the food dish, to make it heavier though :lol:

 

I've asked at several pharm counters and they don't carry them- just special order. I've never seen a krogers in my area.

 

claudia, the changes you have to make will be easier than you think.. tom was accustomed to free feeding at boy was he bugging me at night to find out where his kibble was...and oh those 5am wake up calls 'mommie where's my food' but it did'nt last.

you kind of have to look at it as you have a sick cat now and the way to make him better may require a few changes he does'nt approve of but...oh well, your the mommie :mrgreen:
this whole ordeal will become sooooo much easier i absolutly PROMISE

 

Lori, you know I'm not being 1/2 as 'strong' as many would be. I thought I was using the kids gloves too. I'm I talking down?!!!

Claudia,
I am not talking down to you. And, I'm not sure what education has to do with it. LOL. That comment is a red herring fallacy. Vets are highly educated people [about animal care no less] too and look at the cruddy advice they can give. I think it is a matter of mind frame. You seem to have your mind made up and know what is best for your kitty and I am in no position to give advice.

I was looking back at some of your other posts and at least once someone else with a timed feeder pointed out that they use with with wet only and their kitty does not get sick. So the timed feeders, frozen food etc. etc. are/were already known about. Others have encouraged you to drop the dry. Have you done the reading here that most suggest? I am certainty not talking down to you when you do not provide me all the info. I think I'm talking up to you, that I think your are rational enough to hear input from others when it may not not match your current mind set.

In all honesty, when I came here I did not care about remission - maybe you don't either but I don't have that info.
http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Remission

I hope you post in Health about your objections [and please detail your rational] to feeding an all wet low carb diet and seek input from others on that.

 

gator, i completely agree with you. i just know that talking with a newbie who is a mom and an expectant mom as well...you just have to understand. you know gator ALOT of new moms pts their cats becuase they believe it will be harmful to their child. it is horrific but true.
some people need a bit more coaxing to understand this is how you get your cat well, and if you don't do these things you may very well never get your cat off the juice or regulated.
i was defiant with a number of things...and with you too i believe. taking my doses down :lol: remember.
i think she needs time and patience to get the point.

 

No I did not know that. :sad: I would hope there would be a website for that too.

 

well, people still believe cats harm babies or will be too dirty to be around babies or will sit on a babies face and smother baby. yep, it happens gator. sorry. don't cry. please don't cry. :cry:

 

claudia i have a way to look at it that might ring a bell for you. if your child had ice cream each night before bedtime and after being dx'd with diabetes you would'nt think twice about changing THAT routine. you would give your child diabetic approved food and readjust your childs expectations about when he would get to eat and what.
my kitty goes 8-9 hours at night without food. cause he's a hoover. that's why. i don't like the idea of wet food in a timer either. he's fine with the adjustment and i think he's better off with both of us happy.

 

OK OK, I think I may know what's going on here. Claudia, I would suggest researching how canned cat food is made. The food in the can is sterile until the cap is broken. So the only thing that's likely to grow in there is already in your home! This is usually wild yeast, lactobacillus which is in milk, yogurt and cheese and whatever other wild fauna you have not managed to bleach to kingdom come. So don't blame the wet food.

DRY food on the other hand is often created in very dirty environments and is not hermetically sealed/sterilized like canned food. If I were worried about germs I would eliminate the dry food. Also most wet food is made by one manufacturer because of the difficulty in the canning process. Dry food is made in various locations. Thus the oversight and control would be better at the one location over the multi-location scenario. There is more reading about how "dirty" dry food is here:
http://www.catinfo.org/?link=makingcatf ... f_Dry_Food

Please also read Small Animal Clinical Nutrition 5th ed. Chapter 8 which details how pet food is made:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/mmi_sacn5/Chap ... 0Foods.pdf

 

I'm pretty sure that's the first I knew that. :idea: Might that explain Tomtoms traditional difference between the AMPS and the PMPS? Wild thought? Would be interesting if anyone else who does the same thing has that type of pattern.

 

[quote="lori and tom" i just know that talking with a newbie who is a mom and an expectant mom as well...you just have to understand. you know gator ALOT of new moms pts their cats becuase they believe it will be harmful to their it is horrific but true.[/quote] (don't think I did that right...)
I'm not sure I even feel comfortable on this site anymore. The thought has never crossed my mind to pts, and I kind of resent that you brought that up, almost implying that i would gave gone that route. I'm not some crazy lady who thinks her cat is going to steal her baby's breath. I hope you didn't mean that, and I'm just being sensitive. I like you Lori, and I dong want to believe that you meant anything by that.

And as for gator, i believe you mean well, and i hear your points, and will get rid of wet food. However, i find your mannerisms to be insulting. I came to this group looking for support, encouragement and advice. Not lectures, insults, belittling. If that's your idea of support, you can keep it. so thats all im gonna comment on your recent posts.
I increased to 2u this morning, and will wean him off his midnite kibbles. I truly want what is best for him, but I have a whole entire family that I need to think about, Too. Perhaps I'm being oversensitive, but if thee is one over-generalization you CAN make, it is that pregnant women are sensitive.

 

CVS carries them over the counter in front of the pharmacy.

 

I'll go there today! Thanks!

 

Dose increase to 2u is what you did, and I wish you good #'s today.

 

Claudia of course I did'nt mean YOU! I meant expectant mom's and mommies of infants have so many more concerns that some of them even go to THAT EXTREME whereas your mainly concerned about the spreading of bacteria...i think gator 'got' that as per his next post.
good call of the removal of the dry kibble....now that you did that you may VERY WELL not need the 2U so please test as of day next of removing dry...your likely to go low ok.
sorry for any misunderstanding.
Lori

 

They look better so far! Thanks! Got ketodiastix, too. Next test in a half hour, fingers crossed!!

 

"Not lectures, insults, belittling." Wow. Just to let you know, because I actually do care, I have a hard time not taking that to heart. I will not engage with you in this type of dialog. Good luck.

 

I don't like his +6 numbers. Hopefully just a food spike, I tested 1.5 hours after he ate 1/2 can of friskies. We will see what happens at the next test.

 

not likely a food spike. sorry. this kitty may just be what we call a big gulper. nancy and cody are good with this type of cat..altho it still might be early to say.

 

unless of course there was any kibble in his meal?

 

No kibble during the day anymore-he ate just friskies and a couple pieces of freeze dried chicken. A big gulper needs lots of insulin, I take it? Is that worse? Is there any hope for remission, or at least regulation? We will try just giving him some extra wet before bed, and putting some chicken treats in his spinner for a midnite snack. Maybe that will help with future numbers.

 

well at only 2u we cannot yet call him a big gulper but yes it just means they take more insulin...i don't think it means they don't go off the juice or into remission. pm nancy and cody...i think we even have a room for high dose kitties. this is premature tho. have we ruled out infections?

 

check pm's?

 

or look at mars72 on pzi...she is like a big gulper and check her ss

 

Numbers down a bit again. I'm baffled! Checked for ketones: negative thankfully!!

 

Thanks to the popular mantra of anti-dry good, tonite will be charlie's first night w/out kibbles. I hope this helps his numbers! I shot 2u (pmps 520) so I don't think I need to be too worried about hypo. I'm gonna take Nancy and cody's advice on an ice cube in the wet food in his spinner. I hope he doesn't smell that stinky stiff in there and claw at it all night! We will see! Thanks all!

 

good luck, can't wait to see the results of this experiment.
your threads are growing so long that a good way to follow charlie's progress would be to start a new thread each day on pzi with the subject title. '10-5, charlie amps 410 2U."
and then if you want to update during the day always include most current #'s with a + sign from your last shot.
looks like we'll get this party started.

 

Will do in the am. Thanks!

 

just so you dont get too anxious, food can take a few days to travel through the many feet of intestines, and a lot of the nutrients etc are absorbed from those intestines as it passes, so you may not see the complete effect of stopping kibble for a few days.

 

Thanks Nancy, I wondered about that.