6/8/18 New Question/Answered- Dose (jaxa)

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by Glassgoblin, May 16, 2018.

  1. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    Just tested for PMPS and got a 148, thought that was odd, so tested the other ear and got a 149. Skip the shot or do the stalling/no food for 20? She is pawing at me for her food right now.

    I've been told that she seemed normal all day, but I worry what she might have been at nadir (when she was at 321 for AMPS). She also hasn't eaten for at least three hours because she was outside.

    *Edited to add- Stalled 20, tested and she was at 146. Decided to skip shot. I'd rather she be a little higher tomorrow than go too low tonight.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
  2. FurBabiesMama

    FurBabiesMama Well-Known Member

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    I would probably stall and test again.. up to twice... you have up to an hour of 'play' time with ProZinc. If it stays that low, you could skip, or if you will be around to monitor and take action if needed, you could give a reduced dose, maybe half of her normal dose. It looks likes this is your first pre-shot this low, so there is not really any history on how she will do. These situations are when you get that kind of data! If you are comfortable with it.
     
  3. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    It doesn't help that a stranger just came to our door, so the dog freaked out, and now Jaxa is completely terrified and hiding.
     
  4. FurBabiesMama

    FurBabiesMama Well-Known Member

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    Awww, poor thing.
     
  5. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    If you can, try to grab a test before bed tonight so we can see how she's doing without insulin this cycle. Try to get it sometime after +14 (at least two hours after her usual PMPS time). Prozinc rarely lasts more than 14 hours, so I'd like to see where she's at once that AM shot is out of her system. If you can't, it's okay, but it would be good data to have for next time she gives you a surprisingly low PS number.
     
  6. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I did get a +15 (+3?) and she was pretty much where she was on the nights we had a furshot. This AMPS was at 281, so I am going to think of it as a purposeful furshot. However, when/if it happens again I will stall at least one more time and then give a smaller than usual dose I think. I'm really not confident about adjusting things on a shot to shot basis- maybe after a few more months of data and experience.

    The stranger at the door was a neighbor who was looking for her kitty, missing three days, and I didn't have the heart to tell her about the foxes that I saw in my yard this last weekend. Jaxa is never allowed out at night, but it is so hard when they stage a break-out on their own.
     
  7. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Another option is to go ahead and give her some food and shoot when she rises from the food. You can't do that with kitties who are less stable than Jaxa, but she's steady enough and on a high enough dose that it could be a good strategy for you.

    That's scary about the foxes in the neighborhood and a missing kitty. Hopefully she's just hiding somewhere or accidentally closed in someone's garage and will come home soon.
     
  8. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I'm going to try this because I don't want to miss another shot so soon; tonight she was at 167, then 183. (I got two tests of the 1st drop of blood 167 and 182 then stalled and got 183.) She wasn't outside all day today, though she is out of the food room for a while before it even gets put up, so I am not sure why she has been so low these two nights. I worry about what might happen when I am late from training on Monday.

    So feeding right now and will test in 30?
     
  9. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    Okay, so I tested 30 min after she ate and it was at 166. And she is eating again, but I don't really know what to do right now.
     
  10. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    How far past shot time are you?
     
  11. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    About 40-45 min past our usual time at this point. I tested the first time a few minutes early.
     
  12. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    You can be as late as an hour and still keep your regular schedule in the morning. So if you can, I'd test again at an hour and shoot then if possible. If it's not possible at that point, you can shoot whenever, but then you'll need to start moving your morning shot time later to make up for it. Another option would be to shoot a reduced dose now. So instead of skipping maybe just give 3u.
     
  13. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I will try the smaller shot- I've been trying to move the time earlier and earlier now that we are getting light earlier in the day- so I can get more tests in the PM and so I can give the shot before I go to my dad's every Sunday (or leave super early in the morning for work trips). Will get a +3 and +5 tonight and watch her closely. Should I be trying for more +8/+10 tests? She is often fairly level between shots so I don't know why we are getting these low PMPS now. No change in diet, only pill is the B12, she is getting more exercise and playing with the dog, getting outside and probably eating grass but that has been going on for more than a week.
     
  14. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    All data is good data, but I don't know that you need to set an alarm for that. Of course if you happen to wake up anyway...

    The lower PS numbers are a little tricky. shooting on lower PS numbers can help keep a cat in better numbers. But it also carries some risk. As you try it (like you are tonight) and collect data, you will start to be able to shoot on lower and lower numbers, or you will start to learn how much to reduce the dose. Lower PS numbers are really good. It's what you want to see. But it does cause a bit of an anxiety attack when they first start to appear, especially when you have a cat on a higher dose. With my cat, I can shoot on numbers that are quite low and he stays steady. Other cats if you shoot on a low number will drop more than you want, so you have to reduce the dose for those kitties. The trouble is that there isn't really a way to predict. you kind of just have to try it, see what numbers you get, and be prepared to give some extra food if they get down too low.
     
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  15. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I hope she doesn't move too much in # tonight; just did a +2 and she was at 108. She has been eating- little bit at a time, but a few times. Gave her some treats just now.

    *adding: +4 test just done and she is at 74. Her nadir usually seems to be +5, so I don't think she will go below 50 tonight, and I will probably get some sleep. I gave her a little more treat though and she is still eating her YAZ. I got the honey out just in case, so will leave it out for now.

    I think we will put off increasing the dose to 4.75 for the moment and see how the next several days go for pre-shots- especially Monday PM when my mother will be testing and giving the shot on her own. I don't know if this is breaking through on her doses or if there is something else affecting numbers- I've been adding plenty of food to her dish so she is eating more than she should, not less.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
    Reason for edit: added additional test info
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  16. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    And this morning it looks like we are bouncing, but she is acting like herself and eating her food and devouring the B12/soup mix. I did notice that both nights that had the low PMPS were days that we have had rain so she didn't go outside as much and was more inactive/less grass. Not sure if there is correlation yet, so will continue keeping notes.

    Whenever we go to the vet I feel like such a "helicopter mom" because I can tell them all about her litterbox habits, and exact times of food, shots, tests, anything unusual, her energy levels, etc. I think it was telling when my first vet office kinda blew me off when I'd tell them that her urine smelled sweet (they didn't diagnose the diabetes), or that she was showing signs of pain (from the pancreatitis).
     
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  17. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I think the more of those clinical signs you can relay the better it is for a thinking vet to diagnose things. They deal with a lot of unaware pet parents and should welcome your thoroughness. If they ignore you they're not doing their job properly. Even if they think some of the info isn't relevant they should listen and tell you what they're focusing on and why - ie., have a dialogue.
     
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  18. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    You've had two long cycles in the past couple of days, and the 3u was enough insulin last night - she didn't rise even though you reduced the dose quite a bit. My hunch is that she's ready for a little less insulin. Today's cycle will likely stay high-ish and rather flat since she was green last night, but do get some tests in today so we can see if that's what happens.

    One possibility is that when she's outside she's found a food source that isn't low carb. Lots of folks leave cat or dog food on the back porch, and cats travel long distances when they are outside. If she's sneaking even a piece or two of kibble from somewhere it could be the difference between her lower inside-numbers and her higher outside-numbers.
     
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  19. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I don't think she has found another animals food (unless it is a wild animal) though I will watch for signs; Jaxa is really good about staying on or next to our deck (she is a chicken and runs to the door anytime she hears a car or the dog barks). Every time I look for her I can find her immediately. We are pretty rural, so we have neighbors but they are not very close. However, she might be getting into the dog's things inside occasionally since that is down almost all day unless the dog actually eats it all. I make sure it is put away at night if there is anything in bowl, but my mother doesn't watch during the day and she gives the dog a lot of treats too.

    Would insects be higher carb? She has been catching flies, butterflies and beetles outside, and ate a spider last night. We used to toss out some produce scraps for the bunnies but I stopped doing that so the cat wouldn't be tempted to eat strawberry tops, or peels of anything.
     
  20. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I think our new vet office is better, but it is hard to say since the last several visits were just for them to get blood tests done and I never even spoke to the actual Vet (we go on the day the specialist is there). The Vet Techs and Assistants are pretty awesome about going over results, getting data from my spreadsheet and following up later. They let me contact them through Facebook messenger too, and actually respond in a timely manner.
     
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  21. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    Not too bad today- I got a +3 and a +7, both in 200s and her PMPS was in 200s, stuck with normal dose today. Will see how she goes tonight.
     
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  22. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    A bit lower than our average this AMPS too- 202. I fed and gave 4.25u shot. In the morning she does get a little carb with the b12/bisque even though it is only a Tbsp. Will be home doing chores most of the day so will get a few tests in and watch. I can give some more bisque later if she swings too low, but she was pretty steady yesterday. I hope these are good signs.

    Reduce doses by the same 1/4u? Like this AM, 4.25, test and if okay a couple more cycles?
     
  23. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that's the method.
     
  24. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    Well, my mother tested and gave the shot this PM since I hadn't gotten back in time. Mostly good that she managed both, though she read from the starting line on the needle as though that were 1 instead of 0, so we had a slightly smaller shot. She didn't have that trouble when I was walking her through it or showing her how over the weekend, but I suppose she was nervous without me there to oversee it. No worries at the moment though- no more trips until August. Jaxa seemed a little traumatized, but came back into the room with me and I added some fresh food to the dish and made sure she ate a bit more.
     
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  25. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    We are continuing to get some lower pre-shot test numbers, but when we got the 202 and today at 206 I gave the 4.25. I did get mid-day tests in on the 202, but today is a workday and she will likely be inside due to rain/thunderstorms so I am hoping she will eat more than she did yesterday. She wants to be outside so much and she doesn't typically eat a lot during the day (especially when it is warm and humid.) We had the slightly higher numbers after my mother's lower dose on Monday but she is swinging downwards again. I'm just not sure of anything- stay at 4.25 still or go to 4?

    I asked my vet to look at the spreadsheet (shared it with his office) and they called to say they liked the current trend and to keep up the testing; he suggested if she was under 200 and I were to give a lower u shot to just do half of her usual dose that night.
     
  26. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I think you can give 4.25 u. She hasn't given you any greens on that dose and you've given it recently on similar PSs.
     
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  27. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I worry about everything; her PMPS was "low" too, first at 194, and then going upward just a touch. I gave the normal shot since I had done that this morning on similar numbers. Jaxa doesn't eat as much during the day lately; today was very hot and humid with a big thunderstorm before it went back into the high 80s outside. She ate and I let her out again though. Will try for a +2/+4 or +3/+5 to see how she is doing on these pre-shot numbers.
     
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  28. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I can't edit the spreadsheet on my kindle, but we've been getting some good numbers; +2 was 180, +3 143, +4 at 122. I don't think she will have a sudden drop, but she might go under 100 at nadir. Still grazing, had some Orijen tundra treats and she has been playing, but it is still hot so she really wants me to come her some more.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2018
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  29. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    Do our general results, in the last few days, suggest that we are going in the direction of becoming regulated? She has been getting some really good numbers; not over 300 since my mom gave the lower shot and we had higher numbers the next day but that has been less than a week. I'm hoping this trend continues. I'm trying to gradually change our shot time so it is a little earlier, so that I can try for a nadir test more nights, but we are still in the process.

    I can just see the difference in her, the longer she is getting treatment and taking the B12; last night she was catching mosquitoes and hunting spiders outside. She has become more affectionate with my mother and playful with the dog, and less scared in general. Her whole quality of life is so much better than what it was last year when she was 5 lbs heavier and barely wanted to go outside. I think she is finally moving past losing Bogie (our dog) last summer too.
     
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  30. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Yes, you're certainly moving in the right direction. The general guidelines for regulation with ProZinc are PSs in the low to mid 200s and nadirs in the high double digits to low 100s at/around the same dose over an extended period of time. Those clinical signs of her feeling better are equally important. This is good news! :)
     
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  31. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I'm going to be second guessing myself tonight because she was at 173, and I don't have time to stall and retest- heading out soon, but will be back in a couple hours. So I did what I did the last time and went between that shot and what the vet suggested, so she got 2.5u. I should be back in time for a +3. Tomorrow I really need to get a +8-10 because I don't know if her nadir has shifted to be later, or if it is just a day time thing because she was 159 at +5.
     
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  32. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    Low again this morning; I was half expecting a 300+ AMPS. She is eating well, playing, getting her B12. A little jealous that the dog can have temptations and friskies treats and she can't anymore, but that isn't unusual. She might be stuck inside today if we get the thunderstorm they are predicting though. Tomorrow I work in the AM, but then come home by noon (probably) so will try to get some day tests then too. I really want to fill in the picture of how her bg changes on her regular shots during the day.
     
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  33. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm....that's surprising to see a low AMPS after such a reduced dose last night. Have we already talked about changing the dog over to low-carb treats as well? Please forgive me if we have, I have a terrible memory. It might help if they are both on healthy treats, and many of the freeze-dried treats are fine for both dogs and cats.
     
  34. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I have gotten the dog some different treats that are from YA, and some freeze dried chicken treats, but she has a treat ball that my mother likes to put the cheap treats in to keep her occupied- she is not the kind of dog to share and it is not left down for the cat to get at it. I have been keeping some of the cheaper treats as an emergency stash in case of a hypo since I know it is something Jaxa would eat no matter what. The dog is my mother's pet, so Jaxa is used to there being times when she doesn't get something the dog has just because I was trying to keep her on a diet, and I don't give table scraps. I usually comb her and give her attention instead when the dog is getting extra food. She still needs to lose some weight.
     
  35. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    I've been doing this more lately too. Sam is a good weight, but my non-diabetic is a little chubby. He only eats Rad Cat raw, so theoretically he shouldn't be overweight, but somehow he is. So when he asks for food, I've been trying to replace it with grooming or playing to distract him from boredom eating. He's sloooooowly started to shed some weight, so hopefully we can keep this up!

    I've read that temptations are great for hypos. Some cats only need like two of them to start rising. They must be crazy high in carbs which is probably why they're so yummy!
     
  36. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I have gotten a +3, +6 and +8, and the +8 is the lowest # so far. I might try to get a +10 in there too. Tomorrow I work in the AM right after her AMPS, but might be able to do at least two of the following; +5, +7 and +9. If her nadir has shifted to be later, maybe that explains why she would be higher after a night with greens in the middle of a cycle; she may have gone further down than I had realized, which worries me a bit, though we haven't seen greens early in the cycle for almost 10 days.
     
  37. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    You can try keeping this dose but I suspect you'll need to bump her up to 4.5 u again in the near future. Those greens on that dose are 3 weeks ago now so ancient history. The more recent green on the 3 u dose could have been a one off strange occurrence. You have to do what you're comfortable with while you're at work and your mom is still new to testing, etc.
     
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  38. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I was thinking about that earlier; tomorrow might not be a bad day to increase again since I'll be home most of the day.
     
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  39. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    She was at 204 this AM, gave 4.5u, and she had her B12/bisque. I know that is a little higher carb though she doesn't have a lot with her regular food. Will be home to give a +5 later I think, depending on how fast I get my work done. Will have my mother watch her for any odd behavior.
     
  40. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    And this is why I get scared about giving shots on those lower numbers- we went to the 4.5 this AM, but she was having a low AMPS again. Just got home from work and did a +6 and she was at 51. I gave her some treats and then had to comb her because she was a little messy on her bottom. She seemed a bit tired, which isn't unusual but after treats and combing she perked up a lot, will test again soon to see if we are going up.
    *And an hour later she is at 55 so I gave her more treats, but she is acting normally. It is so hot outside, I don't know if I dare let her out until there is more shade in our yard.
    *And +8 is 75.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2018
  41. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Remember that the 50 "take action" number is still quite safe. That's just the number when you want to give a snack, as you did, but no need to worry at that point, especially since she was there at +6. If it's earlier in the cycle it can be more concerning.

    Do your syringes have half-unit marks? If so, you might try giving a "fat 4.25" - it's a smidge more than 4.25, but not as much as 4.5u. Sometimes a kitty just needs a little more, not a full increase.
     
  42. Glassgoblin

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    Just whole unit marks- I've been eyeballing it based on the top of the plunger. We have the u40 syringes. I have been getting them from my vet, but we are under 30 count in our current box. I have the conversion chart for the u100, but not sure if I would remember that day to day or I'd switch. When I stress I forget the little things.

    I was a bit iffy today because she was lower at +8 yesterday than she was at +6.
     
  43. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    If you decide to get the u100s, HIDE the u40s. In a completely different room. In the back of a closet somewhere. That way, you don't have the option of using the wrong syringes. And I would print out the conversion chart and keep it with the syringes as a reminder.

    You can get the u40s with half unit marks. Your vet may be able to help with that or maybe you can order from ADW or someplace.
     
  44. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    And now I think we are bouncing. Every time I start to hope that things are getting better we have a bad day.
     
  45. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Bad day? That PM cycle was likely a 50% drop, which is a decent cycle. And bouncing can last as many as six cycles in some cats, so you may need to be patient for a couple of days after those greens. Jaxa isn't used to those numbers right now. They are good healthy numbers, but it takes them a little time to adjust to it. Things are getting better. When I first got on the board, there was someone here who used to say that this is a dance, and only the kitty can hear the music. We just have to follow along the best we can.

    You and Jaxa are both doing just fine. Hang in there. :bighug:
     
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  46. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    The bad days are mostly just bad for me because I get stressed.

    Tonight we are low again- 176. I stalled for 30 without feeding and tested and it was exactly 176 again, so feeding and giving reduced shot. Will just have to get a couple tests in tonight and see how tomorrow's AMPS goes.
     
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  47. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    This is where I am getting frustrated; she is low again tonight at 156 mg/dl. I test before I even get the shot ready now because I never know if I can give the full dose or if I have to adjust it, and while we wait she is getting upset because she is hungry and it is food time on her schedule. So right now I am waiting- if we stall for 20 that mean another 10 minute wait. And then if she doesn't move- like she didn't last night in over 30 minutes of stalling, I have to guess if I should give her half a dose, 3u again even though she is a little lower than yesterday, ugh. Poor Jaxa, I'm just a control freak.

    *Adding- stalled 20 min, tested again on other ear and got 121 mg/dl. Tested first ear again and it was 142 mg/dl. Ugh. Should I skip shot or give 2u?
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2018
  48. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    This is one of those "learn by taking a chance" situations. Guess at what reduced dose is likely to be safe and try it. There's no crystal ball to help unfortunately. Go by SS data and what your gut says. She was OK yesterday when you gave 3 u on a 176. The 156 is basically the same.
     
  49. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I gave 2u; the 121 kinds scares me. But will watch and test. She has eaten a little bit twice now post test. She is not eating much during the day now that it is nice and hot or humid most days, so I wonder if I should reduce the morning shot and then do pm shots differently, if her pm numbers are more regular.
     
  50. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Hard decision to make without quite a bit of daytime data.
     
  51. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    Unfortunately I don't know how that will change any time soon as long as I am working. The times I do get day time tests it always seems to be pretty flat, though it was interesting to see her +8 lower than the +6 this last weekend. I worry that she is getting too low during the day, or that her bg continues to drop in the afternoon because she eats primarily at shot time and then not again until pm shot time. Her biggest food time is the evening when she eats almost once every other hour until 11pm, once again around 2am, and then food is usually up 2-3 hours before AMPS depending on when I wake in the middle of the night. I know she is eating enough over all, but her pattern is uneven.
     
  52. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I didn’t mean to sound critical. I know it’s hard when you’re away at work all day.
     
  53. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Just do the best you can. We've all been there...you gotta work!
     
  54. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I don't think I was taking it that way- I'm more critical of myself than anyone else seems to be. After going through the pancreatitis when I had to watch her calories like a hawk, it feels like I should be able to do more for this too. All the guessing goes against my comfort zone; I like things to be stable and routine and every day is different. Jaxa doesn't care as long as she gets fed.
     
  55. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I totally get that! I crave stability and routine too. Teasel sure won't let me have it though ... ;)
     
  56. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Why don't you lower the daytime dose down to 4u and see if that gives you PM number you're more comfortable with?
     
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  57. FurBabiesMama

    FurBabiesMama Well-Known Member

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    This made me smile. :D Ah, wouldn't it be nice if things were 'stable and routine'. Not gonna happen! I was just telling someone yesterday that this is just so 'dynamic'. Every time there are a few days where things look great and consistent.. BAM.. there is a crazy drop or confusing high numbers.
     
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  58. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    Mar 3, 2018
    I might try that tomorrow. We did our normal shot this morning because she was close to 300, and she is at 204 for our PMPS so I gave another "normal" shot at 4.25u- we've been kinda doing a fat 4.25/4.33 for some of the shots lately, and I've given it at that number for the AMPS. Will test later and see how she is doing- she just ate a bunch of Orijen regional and tundra treats (she is getting as enthusiastic about those as she has always been for the high carb treats) with her usual dinner.

    Next week it might be time for another bottle of insulin- we are not too low but I want the back-up since I've almost forgotten it out twice now, and only just barely caught myself.
     
  59. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    As long as you can give the regular dose, that's ideal. Eventually you'll be shooting on lower numbers and it won't be so scary. My suggestion to lower to 4u was for your peace of mind so that you can hopefully give two fairly equal doses per day.

    So glad she's enjoying the treats! Sam is constantly trying to convince me that treats should be used as meals. :rolleyes:

    I agree about getting a new vial before the last one is used up. I like to keep a little back-up in the fridge too.
     
  60. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    Mar 3, 2018
    I kept it at 4.25u for this morning; we seemed to be getting some pretty good numbers on that before though it was a little flat some days, which is why we went up a little. Will have to see how her PM numbers shape up. I feel like we do a curve almost every weekend.

    I'm paranoid that I will drop the bottle, and if I did it would probably be on a weekend when the vet office is closed and I can't get instant shipping to rural MN. I think I will use the last from the first bottle (our current backup) and then get the new one.
     
  61. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 17, 2016
    Many people wrap the bottle with something to protect it if it falls. That thin, "mini" bubble wrap would work well.
     
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  62. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    Mar 3, 2018
    I should try that- I probably have some.

    Every day is an adventure. Tonight we are at 137 when I tested a little early, and I'm stalling atm.

    *Whenever we stall we seem to go down rather than up - 24 min after first test and she is at 121mg/dl.
    *Had stalled again -26 min between tests- and she was at 102mg/dl (this was 12 hrs and 10min past her AM shot). I'm feeding and not giving a shot, unless someone has a convincing argument.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018
  63. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I think a no shot tonight is the right decision.
     
  64. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    I almost never say "no shot", but I actually would agree with that decision tonight. I'm curious what Jaxa is trying to do with the insulin right now, and giving her a clear cycle might help. I'm curious where she'll be in the morning, and how the next few cycles will look.

    As a side note for going forward: you've tried it enough to know that stalling doesn't work with Jaxa. It never worked with Sam either. Stalling is the strategy that is recommended, but when you've collected enough data to "prove" that it doesn't work for your cat, then it's safe to try what I think of as "Kris' strategy" (because she's the one who did it the most around here for awhile. :)). Do the PMPS test, see it's too low, feed the cat their regular food, wait 30-60 minutes after the PMPS and test again. Most likely the food will have caused the number to rise and you can shoot at that point. (Did I get that right @Kris & Teasel?)
     
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  65. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I'm really curious about what is going on too- I just did a +4 (from her usual shot time) and first I didn't have enough blood so all the meter said was Lo, which just about stopped my heart. Then I got a decent drop of blood and it was at 135mg/dl. She has been eating this evening- at least three times that I have seen, but then I gave her a couple Orijen treats between her earlier tests this evening and she was still going down in number. I'll probably give her a few more treats right now and encourage some more food.

    I can't wait to see what her AMPS is going to be.
     
  66. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 17, 2016
    That’s right. It was a useful tool and didn’t backfire. Sometimes I reduced the dose a little.
     
  67. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    A little high (324) this AM, but I expected that- gave 4u to see if she will go low for the PMPS, though I'm not sure if it is a good day to test that with no shot last night.

    I'm might have to save for one of those microchip food bowls- her food is locked in the bedroom so the dog can't eat it during the day, and lately she wants to be out of the room (and outside if possible) almost all day, so she eats in the morning but then not again almost all day long. I still take the food up 2 hrs PS but she often hasn't eaten for at least four hours before the test. Or has only eaten grass and bugs. She isn't an easy cat to encourage to eat when she doesn't want to eat, but maybe if the food was protected and still available she would snack a little more in the day.
     
  68. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    It's their mission to make things difficult for us! :confused:
     
  69. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I just wish I could take several days off in a row and get daily daytime tests (at different intervals) - but the most I can have this summer is a three day weekend over June 15-17. Even daily tests don't seem to show too much when things are constantly in flux though. Today she is eating more because it is raining and I am home, so she wants to be close and every time I pet her she goes to eat a little right away. Tomorrow it will be sunny and I have to mow the lawn, so she will be in and out of the house a lot, and probably eat less. I sometimes wonder if I should keep track of the weather on my spreadsheet too, it might make a difference or maybe it is just coincidence.
     
  70. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    That 324 this morning was higher, but not terribly higher. And the 135 looks good. Hopefully the reduction will help balance the cycles a little so the dosing can be more consistent.

    It is hard when we have to be at work and can't get as much data as we'd like. You're doing fine though, and getting enough evidence to make good decisions. It might be interesting to track the weather and see if there is any impact. It could be related to Jaxa's activity level based on the weather, more than the weather itself, but that might still help you to make predictions if you know that she's more or less active on different types of days.
     
  71. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    Mar 3, 2018

    I think her nadir has shifted too- it had seemed to be around +5 during our first month, but looking at some of her more recent numbers from +6 to +9 it seemed like she goes down further after +6 and is rising again by +9 (except the day we had the big bounce). I just don't have a lot of days with those tests during the daytime. We are in some good greens today, but if she is 88 at +9 maybe that is why were are so low at PMPS. This is the time when she is eating less and pretty soon the food comes up.

    Almost a month without a red number makes me happy. I like sending the vet my spreadsheet instead of bringing in Jaxa and she likes that better too.
     
  72. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Interesting...curious what the PMPS is tonight....?
     
  73. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    Just did the test and she is at 132mg/dl, so I'm going to feed and test again in 30-60 min and see if I can give a shot, reduced, shot, etc. Not sure how I should note that on the spreadsheet; I just put in the test so far.
     
  74. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Aug 1, 2015
    I had a feeling. Tomorrow I would suggest lowering the dose again. For tonight, I think maybe 2.25 or 2.5u? You gave 2u on a similar PS a few nights ago, and she ended a bit high in the morning, so I'm thinking a little more than that tonight. What do you think?
     
  75. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Aug 1, 2015
    Oops. I read your post too quickly. Yes, if she rises enough for the full shot tonight, that's fine too, although for "full shot" I would still recommend a little reduction from the 4u.
     
  76. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    Will see what she does- I think I will give her close to that hour before testing, and give lower than 4 (3.75 if she is high enough or half if at least 150)?
     
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  77. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like a good plan. It's nice to see her insulin need going down a little. :)
     
  78. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    An hour later, after eating she is still only at 146. I gave her 2u on 156 once before, but I still hesitate.
    *I gave her some treats and a 2u shot while she was eating them- will keep watching tonight to see what direction she is moving.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2018
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  79. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I think she is bouncing because of the PM lows- a little high this AM, though not over (technically) 300; 294mg/dl probably means I could get a 300+ on the same blood drop though. Gave 3.75u and will see if her PM test is any different.
     
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  80. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    lol...I totally did that just the other day (5/30 PM cycle), but in the opposite direction - I tested and got a 203, and then since there was a big blood drop, retested the drop to get the 197 because I didn't want to put a yellow on the spreadsheet. :smuggrin: So silly, i know!

    My hunch is that the 294 isn't a bounce; instead it's because there wasn't quite enough insulin at 2u and so the duration was short. So basically the insulin ran out before AMPS leaving her in higher numbers for the morning. It's possible it was a bounce, but you can see the same pattern on your other 2u shot - the next morning was a 292, so almost identical.
     
  81. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I wish I could get by on less sleep- I was watching her every time I woke up last night but she seemed normal and was eating so I didn't test again when I should have at +7 or so. I'm never sure, when she has a 104 at +3 how much lower is she going later in the night. Just got a +3 at 135 a little while ago and that was after she ate four times from her dish, had treats and ate her b12/bisque. The Orijen treats don't seem to impact her bg much, which is nice. I got some Young Again Immune and Digestive support supplement (probiotic and nucleotides powder) that is supposed to go over her food and she tried it this morning- loved it. It doesn't seem to be carby either.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2018
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  82. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    Mar 3, 2018
    And now she is actually under 50... +6 was 45mg/dl. I gave her some temptations treats and will test again soon. She is acting normally, but I hope she is going up right now.
    *@+6.5 was at 59 (64 from same drop of blood), +7 was both 66 and 75 from same drop of blood- I feel like I'm wasting test strips but I always want to know (when there is enough blood) how different two readings might be and if the second will be higher or lower).
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2018
  83. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Aug 1, 2015
    Yes!!! Go, Jaxa!!! She is really determined to get herself on a lower dose, isn't she?

    Don't drive yourself crazy over-testing. Those numbers are all in the same range from each other, so precisely which number is right isn't that important. Although if you're having fun and not driving yourself crazy, then keep at it ;):bookworm::smuggrin:

    Whenever they hit a lime green, you lower the dose again, so try 3.5 or 3.25 tonight.
     
  84. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    PS When they hit a low number around nadir, you can usually raise them with just regular food instead of introducing carbs. The carbs can make them a little wonky for a few cycles.
     
  85. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    Mar 3, 2018
    I just hope she is high enough tonight; Sundays are the day I leave around her shot time for a few hours- family obligations- and I might just tell them I'll be late tonight.
     
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  86. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    I tried getting her to eat the regular YA first, even added some dried duck liver to it, but she didn't show interest. She is at 222 for the PMPS though, so gave 3.25 and will test when I get home again.
     
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  87. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    That's a great PMPS. Doesn't look like the carbs hurt anything. Enjoy your evening!
     
  88. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    Not bad for our AMPS either; 238, so we kept to the 3.25. We even got a +7 in last night. And today is finally going to be nice out so she gets to eat her grass again and will be happy.
     
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  89. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    Again (ha) we are under 200 for PMPS- 153mg/dl tonight. I've shot on that before- feeding and giving straight 3u. First test said 87 and I was like, no way- I retested the other ear and got 147, wasn't sure which I trusted and thought maybe not enough blood on first test so tested that first ear again and got 153. The two tests are close so I am going to go with the not enough blood theory for the first test. As usual, will watch and test again later.

    I just don't know where these low numbers are coming from all of a sudden- did we hit the magic dose and she got triggered? Is the better weather helping? Is it finally long enough that any residual prednisolone is completely out of her system finally? I need to go in for the new insulin and needles later this week so I might ask the vet to review her more recent numbers (he said he had never had anyone share a spreadsheet like that before and I got the impression he was used to people just giving up and putting their kitties down instead of trying).
     
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  90. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Aug 1, 2015
    Yes, you've hit the "breakthrough" dose. It doesn't happen for all cats, but some will climb up and up the doses and then all of a sudden they reverse directions and head back down again. Some head all the way down, others head down for a while and then stall at some level and hang out there for a looooooooong time.

    Basically you just keep doing what you're doing. Little reductions when the data asks for it. And lots of guessing.
     
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  91. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 25, 2013
    I always tell people about this and they never believe me until suddenly it happens! I'm glad you've hit it...it's stressful, but it's lovely too!
     
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  92. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    Mar 3, 2018
    I just hope she doesn't start going up again. Adjusting the shot every time is a little stressful, but as long as she is getting good numbers it is worth the stress.
     
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  93. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Great progress!
     
  94. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    Mar 3, 2018
    At 100mg/dl for PMPS, so feeding and will test again in 30-60. We will see how much she jumps in that time, and maybe this will be another NS if little to no rise. She was outside all afternoon, so she is scarfing that food down like there is no tomorrow but the low carb food doesn't seem to affect her bg very much nor do the Orijen treats. I worry that if she is at 100 now, she was too low earlier. I may try 3.0u tomorrow morning and see if it helps get us to a number we can shoot at right at food time.

    *She ate, we waited 45 minutes, and I tested again (while eating a second time) and she was at 97mg/dl, so I'm skipping the shot tonight. Will get another test in 3-4 hrs and then see how her AMPS is tomorrow. She wants to go out and play again now.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2018
    Reason for edit: second test results
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  95. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    Mar 3, 2018
    It is a little weird that she hasn't gone up yet- eaten three times so far tonight. Almost at +5, so we will see if she has gone up since her +3, which was 91.

    *+5 test was 104 mg/dl. So she has been pretty flat all night, but in good numbers. Glad we skipped the shot.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2018
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  96. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 25, 2013
    That's a very good sign! Often when we see that they stay flat in low numbers or go down after eating and NS, that means that the pancreas are kicking in. It doesn't mean they work all the time, but more like they're kind of sputtering on and off. Beautiful numbers!
     
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  97. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    Mar 3, 2018
    AMPS was not too bad either; gave 3u and will see if the slight reduction this morning makes a difference for her PM. I don't want to take anything for granted at this point; she seems to feel good, want to play, be social, eat her food, beg for treats, and go outside to eat butterflies, all of which are signs that she feels as good as she did a few years ago.
     
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  98. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Is your mom around to give her some extra food during the day?
     
  99. Glassgoblin

    Glassgoblin Member

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    Mar 3, 2018
    The food is out all day; but the door is closed so the dog can't eat it. So when Jaxa decides to go outside she doesn't have access then, but she has never been much for eating during the day time, even before we had this dog (our last dog didn't jump onto beds, he was too stocky). My mom usually tries to get Jaxa to eat before the food goes up, but that is usually when Jaxa wants to be outside and won't willingly come inside. She doesn't even eat the orijen treats unless I give them to her- but when the dog is getting friskies and temptations in the day she is probably mad she isn't getting those too.

    I am considering spending the $ to get a microchip food dish so she has another food in the dining room that won't open for the dog.
     
  100. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Aug 1, 2015
    I was wondering since Jaxa seems to be moving down in dose right now - just to make sure if she needed something during the day your mom would be able to get her some food. Many cats will ask for food if they start to go low - they are pretty good at taking care of themselves. So I would imagine if Jaxa got hungry enough she would come inside -- or catch something outside (? Does she ever do that?)
     

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