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8/29 Oral Cancer in cats.

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (The Main Forum)' started by JoyBee&Ravan, Aug 29, 2019.

  1. JoyBee&Ravan

    JoyBee&Ravan Well-Known Member

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    Feb 17, 2018
    Causes of Mouth Cancer in Cats

    The exact cause of mouth cancer in cats remains unknown. No breed, sex or age of cat is more susceptible than another, yet most felines are considered seniors when they are diagnosed (about 10-12 years old). Experts believe that mouth cancer, like many other types of cancer, can be caused by environmental factors and diet. Your cat may be at a higher risk of developing mouth cancer if he or she
    Lives with owners who smoke
    Consumed a large amount of canned cat food, especially those containing a high tuna content
    Uses a flea collar



    Read more at: https://wagwalking.com/cat/condition/mouth-cancer
     
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  2. Penelope and Mačka

    Penelope and Mačka Member

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  3. Gypsy's Parent

    Gypsy's Parent Member

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    I'd be interested in knowing what data was used to determine the association with canned food. "large amounts of canned food" seems pretty non-specific to me.
     
  4. Veronica & Babu-chiri

    Veronica & Babu-chiri Well-Known Member

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    Aug 5, 2016
    I would also like to know in what study or data are they basing the article, because even though we all know second hand smokers are at risk of a lot of things, even in humans mouth cancer is usually not one of them (smokers on the other hand are but cats aren't actually smoking ), and the "large amounts of canned food" and "tuna" they both seem very vague it doesn't say what kind of canned food or why do they suspect this and the same goes for the tuna part is it canned tuna fresh tuna in large amounts, etc.
     
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  5. manxcat419

    manxcat419 Well-Known Member

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    This article may give you more of the type of information you're looking for. And if you go to page 6, there's a list of the underlying research articles that you will be able to look up online to read in full. http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/feline-oral-squamous-cell-carcinoma-overview?pageID=1
     
  6. Larry and Kitties

    Larry and Kitties Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    That reference includes: "Another explanation for the difference in risk among food types may be that cats eating dry food have less tartar buildup and, thus, better oral hygiene than those that eat canned food.4".
    I thought that has been dubunked except for the very few dry food specifically formulated to scrape tartar off the teeth.

    Here is the article referenced. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1939-1676.2003.tb02478.x
    They devide feeding pet diet as dry food, canned and dry and mostly canned. Canned tuna was discussed separately

    Regarding the statement that cats fed tuna had higher incidences of oral SCC maybe they are talking about human tuna which does not have all necessary nutrients for cats.
     
  7. manxcat419

    manxcat419 Well-Known Member

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    The "debunking" of dry food for dental health is an odd one. There's actually no evidence for this debunking and the research literature still supports dry diets as being better for oral health. The debunking appears to have been done primarily by owners, in the same way that many now insist that it's a raw diet or nothing for cats, despite evidence to the contrary. And, at this point in time, some vets - being human too, there are times when they may be swayed by a strong argument - have also bought into the idea. But the research just doesn't back up the popular belief over dry food's lack of contribution to oral health.

    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1751-0813.1994.tb00905.x

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...ats-and-dogs/5571ED60972E371C4A323155B9E16988

    I noticed such a deterioration in our cats' teeth when we switched to feeding only wet food that I've actually reintroduced dry for the younger cats as a proportion of their food - the deterioration happened within months, and to all the cats in the house. And the only change had been removing dry food from their diet. Our vet agreed with my assessment completely and actually had us feed small amounts of dry to all non-diabetic cats in the house. There are a huge number of myths on the internet about all kinds of things, many of which have become so commonly believed that they are treated as fact even though that's not how they started out and there's no evidence for them.

    I do believe that when they refer to canned tuna, it's the cans for humans, not cat food containing a percentage of tuna.
     
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  8. Larry and Kitties

    Larry and Kitties Well-Known Member

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  9. manxcat419

    manxcat419 Well-Known Member

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    Right, but at the very best those say that the evidence is inconclusive. And the behaviorist blog is written by someone without medical qualifications, who has used a number of statements that relate to dogs and decided they apply to cats too (and this is a huge part of the the problem with how these myths start). They also quote Jean Hofve, who is well known for making wild statements with no evidence to back them. The conclusion in the blog post, which reads "These studies show that dry food does not clean a cat’s teeth any better than eating pretzels cleans ours! At best, we can say that dry food tends to produce slightly less tartar than canned food. For cats, the benefits of feeding canned food far outweigh any possible dental problems that may result. After all, it is much easier for your vet to clean your cat’s teeth once a year than to treat diabetes, urinary tract problems, and other diseases that are either directly caused or aggravated by feeding dry food." makes essentially no sense. Tartar is at the heart of many dental issues, for both humans and pets - reduce the tartar and you reduce the dental issues. And the benefits of feeding canned food really depend on what you're treating or what genetic susceptibility you're trying to prevent - it's not an across the board better option in every case. There was even one study that shows that dry food protects against CKD - which is exactly the opposite of what you'll hear claimed on the internet. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1098612X15625453#articlePermissionsContainer

    This is where the problem comes in, IMHO - we listen to blog posters with no medical training before we'll listen to the research. And the majority of blog posters are either pushing an agenda or are simply unaware of the facts, having bought fully into many of the internet myths.
     
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  10. JL and Chip

    JL and Chip Member

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    I have to say I'm fascinated by this discussion.

    I wonder if there's no conclusive proof because such studies aren't being undertaken/funded. It certainly seems it would require long-term monitoring and control of multiple variables to arrive at clear conclusions. But those are just my layman mullings.

    I do know that I have a 19-year old former barn cat sitting on my lap right now who doesn't have a speck of tartar on his teeth. He spent 18 years roaming barns and pastures, breathing fresh air, climbing trees, hunting, playing, and eating mice and birds as well as dry and canned food. His kidneys are perfect. He acts like a kitten. He gets the zoomies and jumps higher than my youngsters. His sister is the same way. I have no idea what all that means, but I do wonder why it is that I have never had an indoor-only cat that didn't have at least some tartar by the age 5 years. Hmmm.
     
  11. manxcat419

    manxcat419 Well-Known Member

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    It does feel a little crazy sometimes - as though the more we try to do for our cats, the unhealthier we manage to make them one way or another. I actually have had several indoor cats that never had dental issues at all. They were fed cheap supermarket canned and dry food all their lives. And they lived to around 20 years old with no significant health issues at all. Then, as I thought, I learned better and started doing more expensive food, though still a mix of wet and dry...then I went to wet only...and suddenly I had cats with dental issues, CKD, diabetes, heart disease...you name it, they seemed to get it. Which honestly makes me tempted to go back to basics for our kittens in a lot of ways. They already get a mix of wet and dry food as some of them seemed to be born kibble addicts and refused to wean onto canned food. But with these new studies coming to light, maybe that's not such a bad thing. I'm starting to think that in some ways we have to simply make a choice over what we're more prepared to risk...diabetes or oral cancer, for example. And of the possible diseases our cats could get, I am at least confident that I have a good degree of control over diabetes for them.

    I do think the studies are necessarily limited by how extensive they would really need to be, and how much they would cost. Especially when it comes to something like dental issues that can be treated fairly readily if necessary. I can only go by what a number of the studies seem to point to, which is what I also noticed with our cats, in that a wet food only diet very definitely caused dental issues in a matter of months even in cats that I had been told had completely perfect teeth up to that point.
     
  12. jayla-n-Drevon

    jayla-n-Drevon Well-Known Member

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    Oct 11, 2015
    my 2 cents--I think 90% of health concerns are genetic.
    I think we can help minimize some negative effects and for a long time I thought we could reverse many health issues. Im not so sure anymore but I do try to give them the best healthy life possible.
     
  13. manxcat419

    manxcat419 Well-Known Member

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    I agree completely. We can help to offset genetic tendencies with diet and lifestyle changes but we can't stop them completely. All we can ever do is our best.
     
  14. Gypsy's Parent

    Gypsy's Parent Member

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    I have to agree with that. The two cats that I had which seemed like they were pure breeds (one was a Devon Rex that came from the worlds dumbest breeder and I'm suspicious he was the offspring of a parent and direct offspring mating) and the other was a Siamese (of unknown origin) from a shelter. Neither lived past 8. My manx (unknown history) died at 3 years from sudden illness and she was gone in four days. The vet suspected it might be genetic heart disease, but the only symptoms were what appeared to be UTI and suddenly breathing problems.

    The mutt cats have lived to be older: 21, 15, and one still living at 16. These cats were either adopted at young age or had known histories of proper food and vaccines as kittens.

    It *is* a big deal to have your cat's teeth cleaned yearly! It requires anesthesia, which is a risk, especially in older cats, it's traumatic to the cat and it's mouth, and it is expensive. I would be surprised if any pet insurance would cover repeated, annual cleanings! I will likely keep my two younger cats on a diet of dry plus wet. They will scarf down any and all wet food and I need to find a suitable wet food. I'm not averse to using a mix of high quality and lower quality to give them a balance of good quality muscle meat, organ meat and possible ground up bones :) What one food lacks might be made up for in another. Friskies is dirt cheap and they have food with liver and giblets in the ingredients list.

    I also believe genetics are a major factor in feline longevity, with beneficial environmental factors during early years.
     
  15. manxcat419

    manxcat419 Well-Known Member

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    I completely agree on the annual dental cleanings. We know repeat anesthesia is hard on feline kidneys. And kidneys are a weak point for cats anyway. I only have dentals done when absolutely necessary. My Rosa had perfect blood work just before her one and only dental. 4 months later she became diabetic and showed early signs of CKD. Coincidence? Maybe but I won't risk the same situation for our other cats unless there's no choice.
     
  16. jayla-n-Drevon

    jayla-n-Drevon Well-Known Member

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    Oct 11, 2015
    I agree only when necessary.... it is one of those horrible decisions we have to make. I got lucky with the boys but I know some people who spend thousands on a cat and then it has awful mouth issues its so sad.
     
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  17. Panic

    Panic Member

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    Apr 10, 2019
    A thought I had...were your "newer" cats getting vet visits more often than the old ones that lived into their 20s? I wonder (speculating) if we're just unaware of a lot of health issues until the vet brings them to light. I thought all my past pets were so healthy and happy and once I started taking them to a clinic for visits I got informed of all these issues I never knew about. It is scary though, essentially choosing their poison at times. I wish we knew more.
     
  18. manxcat419

    manxcat419 Well-Known Member

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    They were. However, I'm pretty sure I would have known if there were any major issues with the older cats - certainly they got vet visits if they seemed to be unwell or were struggling to eat. And we did check their teeth at home, that sort of thing. We had one who had either IBD or lymphoma. No idea which because we never pursued a biopsy for her - she was on pred and we stopped any food that seemed to make her vomit. And she lived another 3 1/2 years, eventually passing from a stroke at the age of 20. So I can't say we didn't do diagnosis or treatment for things either - we were limited by what was available at the time, but we did what we could. What really makes me wonder the most is this. Yes, diabetes has to be treated - absolutely and definitely. I would never, ever say not to treat with insulin because we know DKA kills, and can kill very quickly. However, I have no way of knowing if any of those older cats had mild CKD or anything like that because we simply didn't do annual or twice yearly blood work on them - they got blood work if they weren't well. And something I noticed was that we treated our first CKD cat (my husband's) very conservatively. Her CKD never progressed, never gave her problems, and wasn't what she died from (at the age of 19, more than 3 years after her CKD diagnosis). With my Rosa, we pursued aggressive treatment - if something was thought to help, we tried it. And she lived just 13 months beyond diagnosis. Which really makes me wonder if just maybe cats might do better with the very minimal possible treatment for just about everything...if somehow they find a new balance that we then upset with aggressive fluid therapy etc. Awful choices to have to make because there's no proof of anything one way or the other - but I think I would be tempted to treat less aggressively for any future cats that develop CKD.
     
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  19. Panic

    Panic Member

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    Apr 10, 2019
    Absolutely. And cats are so good at hiding their pain, we're probably unaware of a lot of things. And you're right, it's impossible to know if we're helping or hurting by intervening. I lost my 12 year old yellow tabby last year - not to go into unpleasant details but the buzzards made it impossible to tell what had happened. We assumed normal external things - was she hit by a car? Attacked, shot? But after exploring the world of diabetes and cat diseases, I realized it could have been an illness that I never knew about. I wouldn't know, I only took her to the vet when she was hurt.

    I would love to see more research done on cats, you may be right and in most cases maybe we need to take a more hands-off approach. Cats are a very self-reliant animal so it would only make sense.
     
  20. manxcat419

    manxcat419 Well-Known Member

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    I'm so very sorry for your loss. No matter how it happens, it's always devastating. It may have been an illness - but if she was feeling well enough to be normal and show no signs of it right up until the very end, that's really not a bad way for any animal to go. A lot of what we do when we treat things that can't be cured or reversed is to attempt to stop them from feeling ill for as long as possible. But yes, I really want there to be more research too. I don't like guessing at the best of times, and when I feel as though there's the possibility of doing more harm than good if we guess wrong, I hate it even more. It would be wonderful to have someone study in depth the effects of treating aggressively vs just doing enough to maintain quality of life to see exactly where that line is best drawn for most cats.
     
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  21. jayla-n-Drevon

    jayla-n-Drevon Well-Known Member

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    @Panic I am so sorry for your loss--there is nothing that can console but please know you are being thought of.
     
  22. jayla-n-Drevon

    jayla-n-Drevon Well-Known Member

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    Oct 11, 2015
    I also had barn cats that lived well into thier teens or 20 ish and because they mainly ate what they were meant to eat and not the garbage they make now I think they were much healthier. No over vaccinations- biologically appropriate food and they are natural athletes. Of course there are exceptions and deworming when needed but all this processed food ( I am guilty of this too) it is hard to get a kibble addicted cat on to raw unless they are babies and you don't have a full time job. Lots of differences in our "advanced" wisdom--I wish I lived somewhere that I could have let my boys climb trees etc...
     
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  23. Panic

    Panic Member

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    Thank you, it breaks my heart that we lost her prematurely but she was (or seemed) healthy and happy to the end. Quality of life is very important to me for my cats so I would rather a shorter, happier life than years of hurt, if it had come to that. I really thought she was going to live into her late teens, she was just so indestructible.

    That's a good point! My aunt has a farm nearby and they don't do anything for their barn cats, she does feed them dog food for some reason, but aside from that no vaccinations, they eat mice all day, and she's had several live into their teens. I bet vaccinations play a huge role as well in their health - why are animals forced to get yearly vaccinations when we as humans only get what, three rounds when we're children and then no more? I bet they're unnecessary to a point. I'd be interested to see studies of cats on natural and processed diets, and vaccinated and unvaccinated. Like previously said, genetics probably play a role too but I imagine moreso what we're putting into them.

    Where I live I could stop all vaccinations, rabies included, and no one would kick up a fuss about it. It's tempting to cut down significantly on them and see how well they do.

    Edit: Another thought, I wonder what the health difference is between indoor-only and cats that are allowed outside. It's obvious cats are happier with the option of both, I wonder if being able to go outside and get more exercise and eat bugs and mice and what-not improves health?
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019 at 9:13 PM
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  24. jayla-n-Drevon

    jayla-n-Drevon Well-Known Member

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    Depending where you live determines vaccination laws.
    In IL we have to get rabies unless you have a medical exemption ...and a good holistic vet :)

    They have done studies and it is sickening that animals with cancer and other diseases are getting vaccinated.
    (you tube Dr Karen Becker/vaccines). OR the book "The nature of animal healing"

    IF you are worried you can always get a titer test to test for anti bodies.
    Cats n Dogs have cellular memory just like us so you are exactly right.
    For a reason I would like to know horses only have 1 year of cellular memory.

    I am a groomer and a lady called last week to cancel her 13 year old cocker spaniels appt.
    She was doing so good and was just at the vet and got all her vaccines ERRRRRRRR
    then they euthanized her...it is really tragic.

    I didn't have the heart to tell a lady in her 70s that the vaccines did her no favor--it is so disturbing.

    Another interesting fact.... in some places/clinics pets are given certain vaccines basically to see how damaging they are or to "document".
    Many pets are given rabies in the right rear leg because they can amputate and the pet would live-it is just such disgusting greed. There is a 3 year rabies and a 3 year distemper.
    Just keep in mind a lion and your cat get the same dose:eek:

    As far as cats being outside I think it is natural for them but this world can be so dirty and sickos especially with cats.
     
  25. Panic

    Panic Member

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    Our county has a rabies law but unless you're planning on boarding them no one's the wiser whether you're keeping up with it or not.

    Thanks for the recommendations, definitely going to check them out!

    Yes exactly! I didn't know that about horses though, that's intriguing.

    Oh no that's awful, was it complications from the shots?? At 13 you would think there's really no point for a majority of the booster shots and all that. A friend of mine has chihuahuas and she had one old girl, I can't remember how old she said, maybe 17-19? Really old, and she stopped giving her just about all vaccines once she hit a certain age. She died recently in an accident, but that was one healthy pup.

    I didn't realize there was a 3 year distemper! And wasn't it stated that the 3 year rabies didn't necessarily wear off after 3 years, that's just how long they've checked to see if it's still in their system?
     
  26. jayla-n-Drevon

    jayla-n-Drevon Well-Known Member

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    Oct 11, 2015
    If your asking me .... I have never seen a dog titer negative even after 1 shot.
    Even if they titer low it just means they haven’t been exposed.
    They know !!!!
    It’s called a revenue generating pet

    Most vets who truly care would not give a 13 year old dog a boatload of vaccines. My heart breaks for this lady the dog was all she had.
    Vets (not good vets)
    Will often give certain drugs because
    Are you ready for it ???
    This is right out of an amazing vets mouth
    Not enough dogs /cats have died yet.
    This was regarding the drug rymadyl. Spelling ?
    Strong pain killer
    Don’t get me wrong if your pet has end stage cancer maybe that drug is called for but they are giving it for less serious reasons. Or they need to explain your pet May feel better but the kidneys are shutting down.
    Dr Becker even has some of course controversial info on spay and neuter.
    She is tying tubes and vasectomies
    It doesn’t matter much in cats according to her findings. As you can imagine the vet world is fighting her. I get both sides because so many in rescue. But it’s a option for responsible people. They have sex glands for a reason. Too much to go into but it’s fascinating.
     
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  27. JL and Chip

    JL and Chip Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    Since barn cats are being discussed... for what it's worth, the barn cats to whom I referred in my earlier post were spayed/neutered, vaccinated, dewormed regularly, and even treated with flea/tick preventatives. I personally believe there's "responsible" care for outside and barn cats and that spay/neuter, vaccines, and periodic deworming are a big part of keeping them healthy and happy. Maybe not annual vaccines, but periodic ones. I have seen distemper wipe out colonies, witnessed the exhaustion and generally ill state of females who are constantly pregnant, and seen FIV and FELV transmitted among fighting intact males and breeding females. Rabies is out there and it's ugly. Vaccines save lives.

    Not that anyone on this thread is promoting leaving cats intact or avoiding all vaccines; it's just a sore spot given what I've seen.

    I don't personally believe that the majority of vets push annual vaccines as a money maker. At least not the ones I go to (although I do avoid large corporate clinics, which may be more money driven). Perhaps it's the way the vets were taught, or maybe they go with the lowest common denominator because many people don't want to dive into the weeds to understand the details.

    I do think the athletic life, exercise, fresh air, and natural diet that outdoor cats experience can be a big positive in their health. IF you can keep them safe from predators and other dangers, of course, and if you give them an "assist" by deworming and making sure they're fed.

    I wonder whether one of the reasons indoor cats have health issues is because of environmental exposure ... seems there's flame retardent and chemicals in just about everything these days, not to mention that they use (and breathe the dust) from litterboxes and then groom such things from their feet and bodies. These are just my musings, and I'm certainly not promoting making all cats indoor/outdoor, but it seems there might be a happy medium...and that the truth is never as straightforward as it seems.
     
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  28. Panic

    Panic Member

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    Apr 10, 2019
    I hadn't thought about that but you're right! And all the household chemicals we use too...

    It's an unpopular opinion among most people online unfortunately but I fully support an indoor-outdoor lifestyle if the environment is safe enough. I understand not everyone is as lucky as I am though, living in a relatively safe countryside. I don't believe, generally speaking, that indoor cats are as happy as outdoor cats, no matter how many shelves or cat trees you buy. And I don't believe that cats "don't belong outside" as so many people keep saying.

    I agree cats should be vaccinated at least once, probably not as excessively as we do now, but it definitely is necessary at times. Deworming for one is really important.

    Really! Now that's interesting O:
    And yes, maybe even vets don't want to take the time to teach owners about the side effects of all these drugs either. My previous vet gave my cat a steroid for her flea allergy, I had her on it for years and never knew the poor effects it could cause.

    My cousin-in-law recently graduated vet school, I think I'll ask her what they taught in school about vaccines next time I see her.
     
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  29. manxcat419

    manxcat419 Well-Known Member

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    That's not quite how it works. For some animals, it may last longer than 3 years. However, when things like vaccines are being trialed for new regulations, especially for something like rabies, the vaccine interval will be set at the point where it wears off for some animals. Especially as domestic cats are now the animal most commonly infected with rabies in the US. So the vaccine interval is set at the minimum "known-safe" period. To ensure that animals are protected.

    Did this amazing vet also point out that the same can be said to be true of ALL medications...if enough animals or humans start having serious side effects, the drug will be pulled from the market regardless of the clinical trial information that was obtained before the drug was approved. Rimadyl is carprofen - an NSAID. Which is relatively safe for dogs, but should not, ever, be given to cats. If it's being prescribed for cats, that should be questioned with the individual vet. And if this is an holistic vet, remember that none of what they generally suggest people use has even been subject to clinical trials, so is essentially a bigger risk than prescribed meds because there's no real data on safety.

    Our vet will also do medical exemptions (non-holistic). And there is no legal exemption option in WA...yet they'll exempt if they think it's the best option for the animal. What they will not do is simply exempt because someone requests it, which unfortunately seems to be what a lot of holistic vets do. There needs to be a full risk assessment before any decision is made to ensure that not vaccinating is the best course of action for the individual animal - there should be no blanket decisions applied to an entire community of animals.

    They don't. They don't even get the same type of vaccine, much less the same dose. Assuming the lion is even vaccinated, which generally being wild animals they aren't.

    Not for rabies. The titer test has zero legal standing in any state in the US. Because it doesn't prove immunity, only exposure. And exposure without immunity for rabies is very, very bad news. If any vet is suggesting that titering will cover you if your cat bites someone, run far far away from them because that's 100% untrue. Your cat will be classed as unvaccinated, titer notwithstanding, and state law (which can include forced euthanasia) will apply. If you're happy personally taking that risk, that's fine - but it really isn't a course of action that should be recommended to others without them being aware of that risk.

    Those are called clinical trials. Without them, there would be no medication of any type.

    Then you've been lucky because 5% of dogs at least develop no antibodies even after vaccination - they're essentially vaccine resistant. In those cases, generally one more attempt is made at vaccinating, but the majority of those dogs are non-responders to the vaccine and will never show antibodies on a titer.

    We shouldn't. Tetanus is meant to be every 10 years for life. And some of the vaccines that were previously thought to last a lifetime (such as the TB vaccine) have now been found not to even come close to that. I'm a walking example of this...I had to be titered for entry into the US as a permanent resident. I was vaccinated against TB (as was the norm in the UK at the time) at 13. 30 years later, I had zero immunity left even though I absolutely did respond to the vaccine at the time. So there's no guarantee whatsoever that vaccines are for life for us either. People who work in the veterinary/rescue fields who have the rabies pre-exposure series also have to watch their immunity level (we do have titers that work for humans, although not for pets just yet).

    Agree completely on this point. Our cats that want to go outside, get to go outside. Yes, supervised and kept safe...but I won't force a cat that's miserable staying indoors 100% of the time to stay indoors all day.
     
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  30. jayla-n-Drevon

    jayla-n-Drevon Well-Known Member

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    Oct 11, 2015
    ye
    Hi yes she is advocating for other vets to start (at the last lecture I heard) She did I guess what you could call a trial of her own. Her clients who ate raw and were not over vaccinated she watched as they aged and almost all of the dogs had some adrenal issue which baffled her-she was working with another vet on this and from what I understand he had passed and the info was on the computer-
    here is a link
    https://healthypets.mercola.com/sit.../07/13/obesity-and-sterilization-in-dogs.aspx

    It is not a great choice for people who let the dogs roam-
     
  31. jayla-n-Drevon

    jayla-n-Drevon Well-Known Member

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    Oct 11, 2015
    @manxcat419 The thing that gets me about rymadyl is that they often make it the first choice for pain management. I think if end stage of life it is ok but in IL they use it for things like UTI

    For rabies yes it is law regardless but a medical exemption from a vet is allowed unless they changed the law recently-My vet gave it to 1 of the cops dogs I groom.

    1 of the vets I have worked with did work on a large cat I think a jaguar and she was the vet that told me about the dosage. I looked around a bit too and found this but I am not the author of it so I can't verify.
    https://twocrazycatladies.com/education/do-my-cats-need-a-rabies-vaccine/

    I wish I lived a place my boys could have gone outside in a "unconfined" way
     
  32. jayla-n-Drevon

    jayla-n-Drevon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2015
    You are going to vet school aren't you??
     
  33. jayla-n-Drevon

    jayla-n-Drevon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2015
    That sucks about the side effects....:(
     

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