A bad situation :-/

Hi,

My brother found out that his cat was diabetic a few years ago. He managed to care for him and keep the diabetes under control even though he did not test Louie's sugar levels regularly. Louie was happy and healthy. My brother ended up in a situation where he could no longer keep louie (apt change and the new apt wouldnt accept cats) and asked my mom and dad to take him. (I live in a basement apt in there house) They agreed even though we already have multiple cats (my parents had two cats and then a "friend" of mine asked my mom to "watch" her mama cat and litter of kittens until she found a home for them. Three of them never found a home and we still have them. SO altogther thats 6 cats.) All these cats in one household is a VERY stressful situation but we cannot find anyone to adopt. :-( Anyway, back to Louie. So, my dad took over his insulin but its been a fight to get him to do it on any sort of schedule (he gets it twice a day.) Louie has been steadly declining.... I was shocked a couple of months ago to pick him up and feel just how SKINNY he was. He has lost a HUGE amount of weight. My mother has also had many issues with him peeing around the house (something my brother says happens when he does not feel well.)

My dad has gone away a few times since he took on his care and I always do the Insulin in that case. I try very hard to keep him on a schdule and peeing always seems to decrease when I am doing it. Recently, my dad went to Japan for 2 weeks. The peeing almost completely stopped. My dad came home, took back over and the peeing became worse then ever. I also found out that my dad and I were giving him different amounts of insulin. I was giving him 4 units(?) and my dad was giving him 2 1/2, claiming that this is what my brother had him on. Yet a few month ago, when I first did the insulin, I am positive my dad told me 4. I called my brother and he said he had him on 3 1/2 and thought the four was fine.

My dad also does things like leaving the needle with the insulin still in it on the counter and just forgetting to give it to him. Because of this, I have taken over Louie's insulin...even though I am very busy (2 kids, full time college and part time work).

I was wondering if I could get some advice on the best way to care for Louie at this point. Also how much food should he be getting. I split four cans of cat food between the 6 cats (twice a day) and usually give Louie and my family's older cat (19 years old) a bit more then the others. The others are all overweight while Louie is super skinny and Kika could also gain some weight.

We do not have the money to be bringing Louie to the vet all the time. :-/ My mom has a friend who is a vet and she takes care of all the cats checkup and vaccinations. Theres not much she says she can do without a urine sample for louie and we have too many cats to easily get one. I know this is not the ideal situation...but there is not much I can do it about it. We keep hoping my brother will be able to take him back but so far that is not happening.

He does seem to be doing better since I took back over his insulin. The peeing has decreased again! I really want to help him gain weight at this point....any advice would be appreciated!!

Thank you,

Laura

 

Laura,

wow! ok, a few questions then some general advice.

What kind of insulin are you using?
Do you change the insulin or are you still using the same container?
When you say giving insulin twice a day, how far apart is that? every 12 hours? more than that or less than that?
Do you take the cat to a vet?
Has any blood testing been done?

Now onto information:

There are three key factors to managing diabetes: food/nutrition, home testing and insulin

1) Feline Nutrition: Now, as far as diet - dump the dry food (if you are feeding any) and if the vet recommends purchasing prescription food like DM just say "no thank you". ALL cats, and especially those with diabetes, do best on a species appropriate diet that is high in protein and low in carbs. Dry food DOES NOT fit that bill and DM food, even canned, just really isn't that great as far as quality. Most here on FDMB feed low carb/high protein canned, raw bought from a pet store or they make there own.

Here great links, one is to a food chart put together by one of our board members that breaks down the carb % and protein % of most of the commercial brand foods. You want to keep the carb % below 10% and around 7% is great. The other link is to a site by a vet "Dr. Lisa DVM" ... who also posts on this board from time to time ... there is in-depth info. there about many things, including nutrition and how to make raw food.
Nutrition/food info

The good thing with feeding your diabetic cat this way, is that it is ALSO good for any non-diabetic cat too. All your cats can safely eat the same food without worry and it may save you some costs and headaches of having to do separate feedings and keeping track of what they are eating.


2. Home testing: It is impossible to convey the value of testing your cat's BG (blood glucose) level at home. Some vets will "suggest" this, but most won't even mention it. They will send you home with insulin and an amount to shoot and maybe some instructions about hypoglycemia (blood sugar dropping to a dangerously low level).

Well, the thing is, human diabetics don't EVER give themselves insulin without checking there BG to make sure it is safe to do so, so why shouldn't it be the same for our kitties. Here on FDMB it is. You will notice that the vast majority of people here test their cat's BG at least 2x/day (before giving each shot to make sure the level is safe enough) and periodically at other times to see how the cat is responding to the current dose. We use a human glucometer, test strips and lancets - which are all very readily available and easy to use.

Our kitties get lots of love and treats for "putting up" with this and most of them actually come out to be tested on their own 'cause they want those treats . Here is a collection of great links that "Carolyn and Spot" pulled together about hometesting. See what you think ... it truly is the best way to not only keep Your cat safe but also really get a handle on this disease and help him to live a healthy life with FD (feline diabetes).

Home testing Links

3. Insulin: There are several types of insulin available. Many people, myself included use Lantus or Levimer both of which are great insulins. They are gentle insulin and given twice (BID) per day in 12 hour increments. Or you could also choose PZI or the new version called Prozinc.

Please read up on the insulins available, here is a link to the Insulin Support Groups:

Insulin Support Groups

However, one caveat and again this shows how these three things are inter-related:

If you are feeding dry food or even a high carb food, BEFORE removing these foods, please make sure of your insulin dose as it will most likely need to be reduced, so as to avoid a possible hypoglycemic situation due to the removal of the dry/high carb foods that will lower the BG’s and reduce the amount of insulin required. Again, another reason why home testing is important.

 

Hi Laura,
Can you tell me if Louie's blood glucose is ever tested at home, or when it was last tested at the vet, and what sort of numbers they were?

Regardless of dose, without an idea of where his BG is on a day-to-day basis, it will be very difficult to figure out what the right dose for Louie is.

From what you described, it could be that Louie wasn't getting enough insulin, or not getting it on a correct schedule (or dosage perhaps) during the time you Dad was taking care of the shots. The fact that he would improve once you took over periodically would indicate that.

Please let us know:
What kind of food do you feed the kitties (name brand and flavors)?
Is home-testing done? (if not, we can help you make that happen)
What type of insulin is Louie on?
Where are you located (city or state)? There may be a board member near you who could help out with the "how-to" aspect of testing.

You've found a great place full of people with lots of experience and knowledge relating to not only feline diabetes, but lots of other related conditions. Please ask any question you can think of, and somebody will be along to give you some help or advice!

Carl and Bob in SC

 

Welcome Laura. I hope you get the help you need here, for your brother's cat Louie. You are very kind to help him.
I know it's a lot of information to take in. Read as much as you can, and ask as many questions as you want.
We, collectively, have been helping diabetic cats for a long time, and will help you with Louie. The most important thing you can do to help Louie is to buy a glucometer and learn to home test his sugars. While you're at the pharmacy, I would pick up a box of Ketone test strips, too. Let us know what you need help understanding. We are here for you. Hugs.

 

Hi Laura,

You have already gotten plenty of good advice to read through on how to help sweet Louie, so I'm just going to add my Welcome to the FDMB family!!! I know all about multi-kitty households. Personally I have 13 of them, and one large dog. Two of my cats are diabetic that I adopted as diabetics from this very board, and with the wonderful help that I got from these kind folks, Maxwell is in remission for almost a year now, and Musette is headed that way. These folks will help you find the best course of action to give Louie a long and happy life, even if you can't afford to take him to the vet all the time. Boy, do I know that one! I am a full time college student myself, work part time, have a small furry zoo, and am a wife, mother and grandmother...This disease is very managable at home, and everyone here will hold your hand and paw through it all.

Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang.

 

Hi everyone!

Thank you SO much for the replies! Hopefully I won't miss any questions. lol

Hillary & Maul,

-I am using Humulin N. He has been on this for at least the last 2 years, probably longer.
-We buy new insulin when he run out, but we do not change it until then. Does it go bad or something?
-I give him the shots pretty much EXACTLY 12 hours apart, give or take a few minutes. Occasionally there is a day where it is not exactly 12 hours, but in general, I do it at 10:30 am and 10:30 pm. My dad, however had him on whatever schedule he felt like. He would do 12 pm and then do 8 pm or 11:30 and 7. Pretty much whatever he felt like. There was even one time he was really late, didnt give the am insulin until 1:30 and the tried to give the pm insulin at 6. My mom and I were able to stop him, but he generally doesn't like to listen to us. Hence why I took over. lol
-We do not take him (or any of our pets) to the vet (generally) as my mom has a friend who is a vet and will come to do their checkups and vaccinations. She doesn't charge us as much money as a regular vet would and she comes to us.
-My brother probably did initial blood testing when he found out Louie was diabetic. As far as I know, he has had nothing done in the past two years. My moms friend who is a vet wanted to get a urine sample, but with so many cats, we have been unable to get one.


Carl and Bob,

-His blood glucose has not been tested. At least not within the past two years that he has been at my house. I don't believe my brother tested it regularly but he some sort of method of figuring out his insulin needs and Louie was thriving.
-My mom buy the 9 Lives canned food variety pack and Friskies, shredded meals variety pack from BJ's. He gets a mix of these. I don't remember exactly, but I believe in the 9 lives, its super supper, some sort of fish, shredded turkey and maybe chicken? I am not 100% sure. The friskies is turket and cheese, some sort of fish, some sort of fish and chicken, and beef.
-I have never done home testing, but I would be glad to if I can figure out a way to do it. How much money does home testing cost?
-Louie is on Humulin N
-I am located in Freeport, NY (Long island)



Dyana,

Thank you so much for your kind words and advice! How does a glucometer and Ketone test strips work?




Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang,

Thank you for the kind words! And great job with all your pets! I hope I can get Louie as healthy as you are able to keep your babies.



Thanks everyone! I REALLY appreciate the help!

-Laura

 

Hi again, Laura,

OK, home testing. Probably the best possible thing you can do to help Louie improve. You check his BG level before giving him any shot. You can also test him in between shots which can tell you how low the insulin pushes down his BG. Cost? A relion micro meter, which is what I use, costs 9 dollars at walmart. Test strips, you can buy in 50 or 100 per box, the more you buy, the cheaper per strip. I usually buy 50, and they cost $20. If you use 3 or 4 a day it'll cost you a couple bucks a day to home test. BUT, if you look on the upper half of the main page of the health forum, you'll see a link there called "Newbie Kits". If you read that, there are instructions on how you can get a kit from Lori who handles all of that for the board. You'd get a meter, strips, and other goodies, and usually for the cost of shipping. That'll get you started. As to "how-to" do it, there are youtube vids, and also everyone here can tell you how they do it. It sounds pretty overwhelming at first, but after a week or two of testing, it's a breeze (for you and for Louie). Basically, you poke his ear with a tiny lancet, and from one drop of blood you can get a reading on the meter of his BG level at that moment. Exactly what you need to make sure it is safe to give him his dose.

Food - below my signature, there's a link that says "Binky's". Click on it and you'll see a page of nutritional info and links. Two links to look for are to "Canned Foods Charts". There's a list of just about any canned food sold that shows you nutritional info for that brand/flavor. The most important number to look at it under the heading of "Carbs". Low carb food is a must for managing feline diabetes. Check the ones you use. A number to try for is a value under 10%. I feed Fancy Feast classics (found on the "old canned food list", and Friskees pates (on the "new" chart), and try to use flavors under 7%. The lower the carb content, the less of an increase the food will cause in Louie. Some 9-lives varieties are good, but try to stay away from any flavor that says "shredded, gravy, chunky, etc." The gravy tends to add carbs. Wal-Mart sells its store brand "Special Kitty", and most of them are good low carb (and inexpensive) choices. Many of those listed are available from grocery stores, while others like Wellness, EVO, Wilderness can be found at places like Petco or Petsmart. The good news is that a good diet doesn't have to break your bank.

One other thing you can do - post a new thread, and use a title like "Looking for home testing help on Long Island". There are probably other board members who live close by, and many times, another member can drive to your home and show you the ropes with home testing as well as other things. Hands-on training is better than written instruction or online videos in most cases.

Carl

 

Welcome! You have gotten some great advice here already. I just wanted to chime in that I have a walmart relion micro like Carl mentioned. While Cedric is in remission, I still test him (list to do tonight, vaccume and test Cedric), so I still use my meter. I found it to be the most economical option for me (not that Wal-Mart is super close at the moment, but I live in the metro Orlando area).

Cedric was on Lantus, so that is my vote for insulin. This vet friend of your mom's - does she have experience with FD? I assume that this is not the vet your brother took Louie to? I don't know much about the inculin you are currently using, but a change might yield more results? My 2 cents anyway.

you want to get Louie on grain free, high protein low carb canned food. My cat got both canned & dry when he was diagnosed, and I switched him to Blue Buffalo Wilderness (both types) and Wellness & Evo canned. Almost 4 weeks into it, the group here finally got me to take away his dry, and his BGs went down; two days later they were normal. I work 2 jobs 7 days per week (although I have no other "kids"). Cedric now gets 4 smal meals a day, thanks to the help of an autofeeder. I just rescued a stray from my new neighborhood, so I am trying to get him adjusted to Cedric's schedule (they are still seperated when I am not home, so Dallas doesn't eat Cedric's food).

Thank you for stepping up on Louie's behalf. It's because of YOU that he is doing better (no offence to your dad tho) and with some help, you can really help Louie some more! Again, Welcome!

 

Since you have a vet that does home visits, you may want to ask about getting a script for a different insulin - such as Lantus, Levimer or Prozinc.

These are much better insulins to use in cats and you may find with the changes we are suggesting regarding home testing and food, that you can get him regulated and possibly even off insulin completely.

It will require some work on and dedication for all involved, ie. consist shot times and amounts, home testing so you know what is really working and what isn't and when you need to change the dose and of course consistency with the type of food you are giving him.

We do have several LI peeps here and someone may even be close enough to help you in person.

What do you say, want to give this a try? And no worries, we are all here to support you 100%.

 

Hi Carl!

Thank you so much for the advice. I am going to look into getting a "Newbie Kit." I am also going to go through the cat foods and try and figure out which one's he can have at an affordable price. My mom has been paying for all the stuff related to the cats and she is not particularly happy. She went from having 2 cats to having 6. Two of which have medical issues (Louie w/ the diabetes and another cat who had a urinary tract blockage which we have been told can re-occur). I really have NO extra money to spend so I can't help financially. My mom is already pissed about the amount of money she spends on food, litter and insulin so I need to try and keep any price increases to an ABSOLUTE minimum. Hopefully I can find changes that won't increase the price.

Hi Doombuggy!

My moms vet friend does have experience with FD but she is a bit eccentric and does things her own way, sometimes I wonder if her advice should be taken with a grain of salt or not. For instance (off topic) when my friend asked my mom to watch her cat and kittens while she found them a new home, she wanted to take some of the kittens to PETCO's adoption area. My moms vet friend told my mom that would be bad for the kittens and not to do it. Now, while that may not be the most ideal situation, the kittens would have been socialized, fed and cared for until they found a new home. Instead, they are still at my house, full grown, not as social as one would expect (one is actually completely unsocialized) and at this point unadoptable. I feel bad, as no one in the house has the time to pay attention to all these cats and it takes time and attention away from the two original cats. I wish that the three of them had found nice, loving forever homes as kittens. :-(

However, my moms friend is a good vet and is doing us a favor, which I really appreciate.

I will look into the other insulin and see if that is a possibility!




Hillary,

I will talk to the vet about other insulins. It will probably take a few days to hear from her though, she is often slow getting back to us.

I am going to look into getting home testing kits and generally I already have him on a consistent shot schedule. Hopefully I will be able to keep it up!!

Right now the house smells a bit like cat pee still, from all the peeing Louie (and possibly others as well) was doing. Because of this, I don't think my mom will be to happy about letting anyone into her part of the house which makes it a bit tough (but not impossible) to have someone come and help me. I have two dogs in my apt so bringing Louie down here may be tough, even if I lock them up, they will most likely bark which might really freak Louie out. :-/ If someone is willing to come, hopefully my mom will be ok with it. I saw the thread you posted looking for someone to help me. Thank you so much!


Thank you again to everyone for the wonderful advice! I am off to look into testing kits and the amount of carbs in his canned food.

-Laura

 

Hi I was notified by one of the members about your kitty--I live in Long Beach...Who is your vet who comes to the house??? Please call me & we will talk-OK?? I am sending you a private message with my phone #--
I use a vet in Baldwin Harbor for my Moonie who is aquainted with FD kitties & this protocol because of us..Call me when you can!

 

Hi Laura!

The good news is that you can feed same food to help treat both medical problems--without spending anymore on cat food than you are already. Urinary tract issues are often caused from lack of moisture in diet (aka dry food), and if cat is properly hydrated they tend to no longer have issues. Check out this page on Urinary Tract disease: http://catinfo.org/#Cystitis_. Adding some water to the food of the cat with UT problems will help prevent any future occurrences.

Now for food--there are a lot of great options. Special Kitty (Walmart) is very inexpensive, and the diabetic safe flavors are Turkey & Giblets, Chicken & Tuna dinner, Mixed Grill, Ocean Whitefish, Prime Entree, Salmon dinner, and Super Supper. Sophistacat (Petsmart) is really inexpensive because it comes in big 13oz cans that you can split between all of your cats. The healthy flavors of Sophistacat are: Turkey & Giblets, Beef & Chicken, Beef, Chopped Grill, Chicken Dinner, Liver & Chicken, Salmon, and Ocean Whitefish. Friskies (you can buy it anywhere) also comes in big 13oz cans, which makes it less expensive. The same flavors (the pates) are good for diabetics--Turkey & Giblets, Beef, Beef & Chicken, Salmon, Ocean Whitefish, Mixed Grill, etc. If you get any of these foods, you'll find it's the same price or cheaper with the big cans.

The initial cost of Lantus is a bit more than Humulin. However, there are ways to defray this cost. If you get a pack of the 5 3ml pens, it's more economical because you won't waste any insulin because of the smaller vials. Also, once you get him regulated (which is hard to do with Humulin because it's a harsh insulin that does not work well with cats), you'll go through less litter because the peeing will reduce a great deal. And the is the big incentive to invest a little more in the better insulin is that most (but not all) cats, with the combination of Lantus, hometesting, and diet eventually go into remission, and then you don't have to spend any more money on insulin or test strips.

 

Hi Roni!

Thank you so much for contacting me! The vet who comes to my house is named Blaire, I do not know he last name. She is a friend of my mom and has been caring for our animals for the past couple of years. It just became too expensive to bring them to our vet so we are truly glad that she is willing to help. For instance, I only pay for the vaccines for my dogs as opposed to a $50 vet visit per dog plus the vaccines. It is really a HUGE help.

I am trying to get my son down for a nap, if I succeed, I will call you in a little while. If not, I'll try later.

Just out of curiosity, the vet you use in Baldwin Harbor, is that Dr. Datner (or one of the other vets in his practice?)

Thanks!

Laura

 

Hi Julia!

Thank you for all the great information!!!! Those are pretty much the flavors I have right now with the 9 lives food my mom bought. We also have an unopened box of friskies but its all shreds in gravy so I will return that. How much food do you think he should be getting per day?

I have been splitting four cans between the six cats and I try to give him a little more then anyone else as he is so skinny. The other cats are doing great on a bit more then 1/2 can twice daily but im worried Louie needs more. What do you think?

Thanks!

Laura

 

How much does Louie weigh? Or I should say how much is he suppose to weigh. My kids range between 6lbs to 17lbs ( Maxwell is a big Maine Coon type guy). On average my kids get about 1 (5.5oz) can of Special kitty per day, except for Maxwell my 17 pounder and he eats roughly 2 cans per day. Although if Louie is still unregulated he needs as much food as he can, since insulin is what their bodies use to process food, so he isn't getting every thing he should be out of his food to maintain his healthy weight.

When Maxwell first arrived here he was chowing down on 3 cans a day, the closer he got to remission the less he eat, and now that he been off insulin for almost a year, he only eats about a can and half. And even then there is a lot of times that he will leave some in his dish.

Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang

 

Yes, how much you feed depends on how much he should weigh. If he's an average sized cat, I would feed him about 1 and 1/2 - 2 cans of food a day, especially if he needs to gain weight. You can always cut the food back down later if it's too much, or when he gets better regulated.

Basically, you don't want to feed anything shredded or with gravy to a diabetic. So if you read the label on the can, you want nothing with wheat gluten, soy, corn, or rice (friskies does have rice but not a lot, so that one is ok). However, I would keep a few small cans of the gravy stuff around the house in case of a hypoglycemic episode. The gravy foods are good for boosting a diabetics blood sugar up quickly when it's gone too low.

 

H

I am guessing that Louie should probably weigh somewhere around 11 lbs. But I am really not sure. He is a larger cat and he used to weigh a lot more then he does now. I am guessing (I have no weighed him but I am going to try and figure out a way to do so) he weighs about 7 lbs atm. I think I am going to go to walmart or see if a local grocery store has any sales on cat food. That way I can have some extra on hand for him without asking my mom to spend more money. Should I be trying to fit in "lunch" for him or just sticking with breakfast and dinner and offering him more at each feeding? It is hard for me to balance all of this, feeding all the cats, dealing with Louie's insulin and making sure he doesn't have to fight for his food (I have one cat who gobbles his food down and then goes after everyone elses.) taking care of my children, doing my school work, working and trying to find time to keep my apartment clean. lol

On my current schedule, I need to rely on my dad to feed the cats in the am on Mon and Tues as I am at work. All other feedings I do. I worry that he is not sticking to the schedule. :-/

 

I would say he is a bit larger then average. But I am honestly not sure. He is bigger then some of the other cats. He is long (but not super long). He is so skinny right now...its really awful. I was telling my dad about this site and my quest to get Louie to gain weight and become healthy. My dad informed me its better for him to be underweight then overweight. While this may be true, he is not just a bit underweight...and my dad just refuses to acknowledge that. He is emaciated. It is terrible. I honestly can't believe how skinny he is. You don't really see it because of all his fur, but if you go to touch him or pick him up, every bone is sticking out.

 

One average a cat that should weigh about 10lbs should have about 1 can (5.5oz) a day. Walmart has 13oz cans for about 92cents a piece, so that should do the trick for Louie for at least a day and a half if not two days.

If you can break up his meals into several small meals during the day that is better for his diabetes than a couple of big meals, now I'm lucky enough to be home all day so my kids eat 4 times a day: 7am, 1pm, 7pm & about 10pm as we are getting ready to turn in for the night. Now what I do with that very last feeding is I freeze it during the day, and I put it out frozen when we go to bed, that way they can nibble on it all night long as it thaws out.

Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang

 

Dearest Laura,
Your Newbie Kit is going out asap.
It is extra special.
50 accu-check strips....please open an account on ebay for future strip purchases. Saves a bunch of cash.
Also many lancets. You can use one lancet up to 5 times no problem.
Also sending a baggie of no carb healthy treats called 'pity the kitty' tom approved.
2 toys that no kitty can resist, and perhaps the cutest rice sock ever to warm the ear.
If I can help you understand anything in your kit please pm me ok?
I hope it arrives by Saturday and REALLY think it will....priority mail.
Hugs,
Lori
and Tomtom

 

Lori,

Thank you SO much! You (as well as everyone else on this board) are amazing! I am so glad that I posted on here! I can't wait to receive the starter kit. I know now that I will be able to help Louie become healthy!

Thank you again!

Laura

 

So that means we have now helped you take a bad situation and make it better! yeah.

 

I talked to.my vet today. Cass lost about 6 lbs. quickly (a month or so) before.he was diagnosed diabetic. His "ideal weight" is about 11 lbs. She said he should get anywhere from just over 1 to 3 cans of 5.5 oz friskees daily. Depends on activity, metabolism, etc. each can.has 170-180 calories. Switching from even a low carb dry to canned.has.made a big difference in his.blood.sugar.

Hopefully this will give you some idea.how.much Louie needs. Good luck!

 

Hey Laura I am home from work--Hope I helped some during our call--
I advised Laura to gradually introduce a little FF low carb (like an 1/8 of a can) into what ever food they are feeding, as you cant just take carb foods away all at once, or cat will drop like a rock!--
She will feed him separately & will use ketodiastix till she gets the Newbie Kit--I will go over there if she needs help with home testing--Just so happens that I also use the accucheck aviva meter so this will be good...
I asked her to check his ketones, as we dont know what his bg numbers are, so this way at least we can have the urine glucose numbers-which i had to do with Moonie early on---Laura is doing well & is very positive about taking good care of this little boy kitty Louie!

 

Roni - you rock!

 

Just dropping in and read everyone's posts and see that you are in the most capable hands possible! Welcome aboard and thanks for taking such good care of Louie!

 

Hi everyone!

So, I just finished up with my ultra long Thursday evening. I raced home from my class (got out about 10:20) to feed the cats and give Louie his insulin and then went back out to grocery shopping. I just got back home and although I have classwork to do, I figured I would check in on here.

Roni,

Our talk really helped today! I did figure out (from the binky's cat food page) that 3 out of the 4 9-lives foods in the variety pack my mom usually gets have 6 or less carbs. So thats ok, right? Just not the shredded turkey? The others are all like the ground up food. The flavors are, Super Supper, Chicken Dinner, and Ocean Whitefish (I believe).

I am trying to figure out a way to seperate Louie from the other cats so I can keep a better eye on him and also have the ability to check his ketones. I am going to try and get him used to spending sometime in my apartment and see if he will get used to my dogs. That way he can hang out with me part of the day and I will be able to see when he goes to use the litter box and hopefully be able to check the ketones. I do the vast majority of my classwork down in my apartment and I also have it set up as a good area to let my 11 month old son hang out. So I am down there a lot. Assuming I can get Louie used to it (and hes not peeing around the apartment...I can't have that with the kids. ALso, if he pees im afraid my dogs will start. That would be AWFUL!) I will have a MUCH easier time figuring everything out. I am really hopeful that he will be ok down here. I am going to try for a little while 2morrow am and see how he does. I bought a small litterbox to put in my bathroom so hopefully he will use it and I will be able to get a ketone reading. Wish me luck!!!!!

I also took some pics of him tonight, trying to get something that will show everyone his size and hopefully show how underweight he is. I figured that would give everyone a better idea of his situation? It was hard to get a picture that showed the slimness as he has a ton of fur and it hides everything. But I think I got a couple that kind of show it. I am going to put them on my computer and try and figure out how to post them on here.

Thanks again to everyone for helping me with Louie! You guys are AWESOME!

-Laura

 

Ok...I figured it out! Here are the pics I took tonight!

It's a bit hard to see with all his fur as well as his color pattern...but his ribcage sticks out a lot but has very little fat on it. As you go down his spine towards his tail, his back becomes very narrow and the spine can easily be felt through his fur.




In this picture, the black area is the top of his spine. The white part is his LEGS...not his belly.



Another picture to try and see his weight. Its really is hard to get a picture that shows what I can feel.


This is just a pic of his cute little face. I realized tonight that his eyes look really different then they used to. Im not sure if its because he is sick or just getting older....but they don't look the same to me.

 

Thanks for the pictures. We can compare those to the "after" pictures, once we get his sugar a little more under control and he starts to put on some pounds.
My kitty's eyes changed when he went diabetic. It's like his pupils are larger a lot of the time.
Good luck with everything! You are a fine person to help Louie like this.

 

Nice pictures of Louie, glad you posted them! FWIW, my cats adapted well to my dog(s). At one point I had an akita and a husky, and then got 3 kitties (not all at the same time). Although it took a few days for it to happen, they figured out that they could live together and not get in each others way. I just adopted a feral kitty, GeeCee, who spent about 4 months in my garage until it hot to be about 90 degrees outside, let alone inside. He then came inside and spent two months in my spare room downstairs, he then graduated to having the run of the whole downstairs (spare room and family room) by himself. He would go to the top of the stairs and I'm sure my three kitties and my dog were sniffing under the door and the kitties were playing I can hit your paw with mine. Then one day, I just opened up the door and let him come up. There was some hissing and spitting for a while, and Molly, my dog, sniffed at walked away. Of course, when I wasn't home or when I went to bed, Gee went back downstairs. After about a week of this, everyone seemed to be settled in enough for Gee to now stay upstairs full time. So, little steps at a time, if you can do it, will help get everyone acclimated to each other.

Food....just another suggestion would be if you have a Petsmart around you. I buy the Sophisticat brand food, it's 38 cents a can since it's their brand. They have quite a few low/no carb foods for a variety. Liver and Chicken, Beef and Liver, turkey and chicken, Marineer Catch, and a few others that I can't quite remember. Having 4 cats and a dog, I need to save somewhere, and all the kitties (except Ali, who's another story) eat this food up.

 

Hey everyone,

So, I brought Louie down to my apt for breakfast along with Kika, my old girl. That way I wouldn't have to worry about her fighting for her food while I was downstairs (my dad gave the other cats there food). So far so good! The dogs are locked up right now. I figured I would worry about getting them used to each other later. Plus, it would be hard to feed Louie because my dogs would be constantly trying to get his food.

He and Kika are switching back and forth between there food dished (2 seperate flavors, BOTH low carb) it's really kind of cute.

One question though, has anyone on here had an issues, where they go to give their cat the insulin and the tip of the needle goes through the skin and some (or all?) of the insulin ends up on the fur? I occasionally have that problem, no matter how hard I try to do it correctly. I was just wondering what I should do when that happens? Should I give him another shot (maybe less insulin in case he got some already) or do I just leave it and hope for the best? It just happened to me. :-/

Thanks!

Laura

 

Hi laura,
That is what we call a "fur shot" and you should NEVER shoot again when that happens. You just have to live with it until the next scheduled shot.
Carl

 

Thanks Carl!

Thats what I figured, but I just wanted to be sure. Any advice on how to avoid fur shots?

Thanks!

Laura

 

You can give the shot in the scruff of neck or flank area (which is the area between rear leg and side).

And you want to "tent" the skin, which is pulling up on the fur and skin and feeling for a space between the skin and body, poke your finger in the fold area and that is where you want to inject.

HEre is a link to what I'm talking about: http://felinediabetes.com/injections.htm

Also, in the picture it shows injecting more near the stomach, whereas I injected more at the rear leg joint (where the leg meets the body).

 

I had a lot of problems with fur shots.

I used to put the food on the floor and and give Yoyo's shot. I now put the food and the cat on my kitchen counter. If the cat wants to move, I stabilize him with my elbow. I make sure I have pinched an adequate amount of "thin" skin. If I am in doubt, I take the needle out and insert it again ( I used to feel really bad about that -- but no more). After the shot, I pick up cat and food and put them on the floor. Just being at eye level with the shot has really helped me to avoid fur shots.

Lana

 

Shorter needles will help. We use 5/16" 30ga. needles, not had a furshot using them. What a pretty baby Louie is and yes, I can see how skinny he is. You're doing WONDERFUL for him.

We shoot in the scruff as well as both sides of front flank in fatty skin/roll right behind the front leg nearer stomach. KT does NOT like me to use the rear flank area so we avoid that.

 

I found that switching to a shorter needle helped me--I'm not sure what syringes, you're using, but when I switched from 29g, 1/2" needle syringes to 31g, 5/16" needle syringes I never had any more fur shots. Here's a picture that shows the difference between the two lengths:

 

Thanks everyone! Hopefully I will be able to avoid them in the future!!

Squeaky and KT and Julia,
Thanks for the info (and the picture!)! Where do you get the short needles? We have the longer ones and I believe my mom gets them from CVS. Do they sell the shorter ones there? Do we need a prescription? Im not sure if we have one for the current needles or not. :-/



FYI- So far, Louie wont go anywhere the litterbox. He got scared when I brought him in to show it to him. All he is doing is standing at the top of the stairs meowing to get back up. He didn't even finish his food. Neither did Kika. I guess the new environment stressed them out. They ate a bunch of it though.

I let Kika back up...i'm thinking i'll do the same for Louie and try again in a couple of hours. I don't want this to become a bad experience for him

-Laura

 

It depends on what state you live in but most don't require a prescription for syringes. You can just ask for them at CVS (I get mine at Walmart though 'cause they're cheaper there. I think people have said they're really cheap at CostCo, too, but we don't have a CostCo up here). What you want to ask for are 30/31g, 5/16", .3cc syringes with half unit markings. They're the same price as the other ones, just a different size needle.

Here's a list of the states that do or don't require prescriptions: http://www.isletsofhope.com/diabetes/state-law/state-prescription-laws.html

You can also order them online from someplace like American Diabetes Warehouse.

EDIT: I just went back and saw that you're in NY, so you don't need a prescription.

 

Musette is really fluffy as she is a Himalayan, so one of the tricks I have learned with her to avoid a fur shot is to pull up the 'tent' by gently pulling the hair, which lets me see her skin more clearly.

I also shoot on her side where the hair is thinner, as her ruff is like a lion's mane.

Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang

 

I would also pull up gently on the fur to get the "tent." Otherwise I had a tough time seeing what I was doing.

 

Thanks everyone!!!

I will try your tips tonight when i do his insulin. I brought him back down a little while ago and gave him some lunch. He still didn't want to stay for a long time but generally, I would say he did really well. I left the dogs out and besides one hiss from him, they pretty much ignored each other. He still didn't go near the litter box so I havent been able to test his ketone levels. :-/ Hopefully sometime 2day.

 

Good job, on bringing Louie downstairs (thumbs up smiley). Maybe, for just a little while, if you put the litter box say at the 2nd or 3rd or 4th lowest step (somewhere on the stairs), he will use it. But, they only go when they are comfortable (I think), so it may take some patience and some ignoring him, to get him to used it.
Just wanted to say thanks again, for helping Louie (and Kika, too). Hugs.

 

Hello and welcome! You're doing a great job making positive changes! My Willie was all about the inappropriate urination when his FD was uncontrolled, but as you've learned, they stop quickly when they start feeling better. if you're able to isolate Louie at times when he's likely to use the box (or can keep him separated for periods of time in a different room), you can try the Tidy Cats Breeze litter system. Petsmart has been selling it for $24.99 and this site has a coupon for $10 off (that can be printed twice if you use your back button and refresh). It has gravel on top and the urine goes into a pan on the bottom and soaks into a pad. if you just leave the pad out, you can get a urine sample anytime he uses the box to check for ketones. Just has to be isolated so you aren't mistakenly testing the urine of the other kitties!

There are lots of ways to cut costs and do FD on a budget. Many of us use ADW for testing supplies, syringes, etc. I purchase online gift cards from Petco (was able to score a $100 online gift card for $57 recently on ebay) and combine cashback links, coupon codes and the gift cards to score good deals on food, litter and treats. If you are able to get one of the other insulins in pen form, check with your local Costco, Sams Club and outpatient pharmacies at hospitals and see if any would be willing to sell you one pen at a time. Doesn't save you money long run, but will prevent a large up-front cost.

I think that a better insulin (any of the three already suggested), cutting out the high carb wet food and hometesting will work wonders for Louie. It will also put you in control and you won't need a vet to micromanage his FD care. Willie hasn't seen a vet for diabetes since February. When we go in for other testing, I take a copy of his spreadsheet (don't have the link handy, but we have a google document template already created... you just fill in the numbers!) and listen to any thoughts the vet may have, but I make the call on doses, what to feed, etc. Willie is 15, has no teeth (or front claws!) and has an auto-immune condition for which he'll be medicated for the rest of his life. But because of what we've learned here, he's healthier than he's ever been, his coat is free of dandruff for the first time in a decade, he uses his litter box like he's supposed to, and he runs around and plays as if he were a kitten. Even if remission isn't in the cards for him, what we have learned here will allow him to live out his remaining years in the best possible health.

Please continue to check in with questions/concerns as you have them! You're doing great!!!

 

Hi Christie,

Thank you SO much for all your hints and advice. The litter system sounds like a great idea! I just need to see if I can get a hold of it.

I wanted to let everyone know, I attempted testing Louie's blood sugar today. I was unable to get any blood fro his ear, no matter how hard I tried. He was squirming and it was hard to see. I ended up using his paw (I read it was ok as long as you used alcohol swabs) and although not the easiest thing I have ever done, I was able to finally get a reading. It was 67 about 2 hours after food and insulin. I read that it may be a little low considering that the insulin haden't been in his system that long. I have since tried to catch him for another reading but he is a bit angry at me and won't come near me. He looks ok though...so hopefully all is well.

I am going to go pick up some chicken (his favorite) to entice him into another reading. Should I drop his insulin at all tonight? He is on all low carb food (turned out the flavors in the variety pack were mostly low carb...so that was generally what hes been getting since I took over).

I will let you guys know If I am able to get another reading soon.

Thanks,

Laura

 

Hey,

Ok...so I was able to get another reading when chicken was involved. It was 38! No good from everything ive researched. I have given him food- I do not have any of the higher carb food in the house atm, so I mixed the low carb with some maple syrup and let him eat some bread. I hope this was the right thing to do. I am going to try to check his levels again in a little while.

I hope my lack of knowledge isnt screwing things up too much!!! FYI- he seems fine and is acting normally. I am going to pick up higher carb food so I have it in the house.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

-Laura

 

hey, just getting on here and seeing this. how are things now? any new number since the 38?

and yes, whatever you have on hand that will work to get the level up some is fine.

bear in mind that the sugar is like us eating a candy bar. it's a temporary rush so they will go up quickly, then come back down so what you do is get him up quickly with the sugar, then give him something that will hold him up, like his regular food or something a little higher in carbs than normal.

fwiw, going this low means a dose reduction in the very near future. also, anytime something like this happens, feel free to start a new thread with something urgent in the subject line ok. maybe "BG 38! Help!"

 

the insulin you are using is fast acting right? perhaps his numbers will start back up soon. when you feed hi carb, i was told to feed small amounts as to not let him get too full! and something quick but some that is longer lasting....didnt you say you had some higher carb food? gravey stuff that you were going to return to the store? maybe the gravy off of that???
Please keep us posted and you might want to edit/start a new post with 911.
When I was learning to test, I gave Bean a shot, and tested 2 hours later and she was 27! This site stayed with me and on the phone well into the night to make sure Bean was ok.....you can see by my 1st recording on her spread sheet. Bean acted just fine too..... was very fearful of her making it thru it...She did, and I promised her to never ever give her a shot without testing again! She does thank me for that every day that I get to see her wonderful eyes and her relentless begging to do 'outside time' once a day
Goooood job testing!!! now lets just get thru this low number!
I think lower dose is in order or not at all!!!! gooood going to Louie :razz:

 

How many hours past him getting his insulin did you get that 38? Louie is still on Humulin N right? If he is, it should be very fast acting and wear off fairly quickly. Nadir on N is usually around +4 to +5. Keep an eye on him....Do you have the "Signs of Hypo" and "How to Treat Them" printed out and somewhere handy?

Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang

 

Is everything okay, Laura? Please update us, when you can, or start a new post. This one is getting kind of long.

 

Early in this thread Laura said her normal shot times were 10:30 am and pm if that helps
Carl

 

Sorry Guys,

Ive been running around like crazy. Louies #'s did come back up. I just checked them again and they are now at 166. I also managed to get the blood from his ear this time. Go me!

I had returned the Huge package of canned food with gravy (48 cans) but I went back out a little while ago and got a few cans of food w/ gravy to keep on hand (that had been my plan...I needed to go out and get regular food anyway).

Louie never showed any symptoms of his blood sugar dropping (at least not very noticeable). Im glad it came back up and all seems ok now!

So, now that I am testing, what is the sugar level that I should be aiming for? Also, im assuming I should drop the isulin down tonight?? If so, how much? Hes been getting 4 units. I give it to him at 10:30...so he has 1 1/2 hours to go.

Thanks for all the help!!!

-Laura

P.s. Next time theres an issue I will def start a new thread (as per your suggestions). I'm not sure why I didn't think of that. lol

 

clearly his current dose is too much as he went dangerously low today.

more than likely if you test him again at test time his number could be much higher than it is. that though could be a response to going too low today. when they go low like that, the body often will throw whatever it's got at it to save itself. the key is to not react to the sky high numbers by shooting the high dose again. if you do, kitty gets on a roller coaster of high low high low high low and that doesn't feel good obviously.

i'm leaning towards 1 unit at the most, IF the number is much higher than it is right now. normally we tell people and kitties new to this to not shoot anything if kitty is under 200. as you test and get some data in the coming days then you can adjust up if need be

(i've got a splitting headache at the moment and hope i make sense )

 

Hi laura.
Try to get another test around 10:00. You need to know he's going up by shot time. Post the number and we can figure out a dose.
Carl

 

Thanks guys! I'll check him again around 10 and then come back on here and let you know what it is.

 

hey,

Ok...Louie and I had a bit of a struggle getting the blood for the test but we finally did it! He was at 258! :-/

 

Sorry, just got back on.
I was hoping someone would give dose advice. I would definitely NOT think about 4units on a 350.
at most 1 or 1.5
Carl

 

Sorry i typo'd. "On a 250".
I would be safe and shoot 1 unit
Carl

 

Ok! Thanks!

 

Offer is still open for me to come & show you how to test in the ear!
Paw testing is ok But has some draw backs, I'm sure the peeps here on health have told you--
I did call you--Hope all is well Good that you bring him downstairs--was glad to see it!

 

Hey Roni!!!

Thank you for the msg! I actually figured out how to test on the ear and have been using the ears the vast majority of the time.

My phone has been acting funky, so I did not realize you called! Thank you so much for all your help!!!!

How is Moonie doing?

-Laura