About one week into treatment

Hello, Everyone!
A sick stray happened upon us in pretty bad shape, dehydrated, emaciated, and otherwise not looking very healthy. We took him in to the vet and he has diabetes and is FIV positive. The vet assumes he is about 14 years old. The vet did not recommend treatment, based on his shape and FIV status, but I had to see where it went. A poor prognosis isn't always a reason not to try. His sugar was at a little under 600, they gave him 5 units of insulin, and there was no remarkable change. They upped the dosage to 7 and that didn't do the trick, so they gave him 12 units. That brought it down to 51. So, they settled on 10 units of Novolin, once a day. Apparently it has an 8 hour peak time. He spent four days in the hospital and we brought him home on Tuesday. He has his 10 units of insulin at 6:30am after eating 1/2 can of A/D and we were told to give him 1/8 of a cup of dry, a little more if he seemed particularly hungry. The past few days he has been eating about 3/8 of a cup of dry, on top of the 1/2 can of A/D. Then he gets fed between 3:30 and 4:00pm. In total, he has been treated for about five days, this being the sixth. He seems to feel a lot better. By the time he came to us, his legs were weak in the back and he was walking funny. This seems to be resolving nicely. His energy is up, as well, and his fur is softer. We have been brushing him though so, don't know how much that is relevant.

Some questions/concerns that come to mind are, 1. Should he still be drinking and peeing so much? He does not hover over his water bowl but he does make frequent trips every say... ten-fifteen minutes. I left him a bowl of water out last night (holds a cup and a half) around 8:30pm and he woke me up crying for water at 3:30am. His box stays saturated and the litter is still sticking to his feet. 2. I see a lot of information about cats who are overweight but virtually nothing regarding underweight cats with diabetes and how to treat them when you are trying to get them to gain weight. 3. We have been doing well with the insulin injections, but this morning I apparently did something wrong and some of it backed out. Do I need to adjust his diet somehow for a partially missed dose? 4. We were told to give him a can of AD in the afternoon and free feeding dry until he quits eating. He acts like he is starving all the time though and gets cranky about 9pm. Can we schedule in-between meals or does he have to only be fed those two times a day? I see where people are saying they feed their cats four small meals a day, but then again, they are giving insulin twice a day while we only give it once. Perhaps I am leaving something out. I am still at the stage where I am not sure I am asking the right questions.

I have read up on the foods and such so I know that higher protein, preferably wet food, is preferred. Since his circumstances are a little beyond standard, we are following the above advice from the vet until such time that a change seems reasonable. We were told that we did not need to check sugar, just monitor him for symptoms after he gets insulin and after he eats. He goes back for a check-up in two weeks, so I am not sure how much of this is temporary, because of his poor condition, or how much is going to be standard. Any helpful hints or advice will be appreciated. Thank you! -Tina

 

welcome! And bless you for adopting a special needs boy.

I am not sure where to start....we have a successful protocol that works. I do wonder how much experience your vet has with diabetic cats. First, N is not a very good insulin. It is harsh and hits fast, and lasts less than 12 hours in felines. (so giving it once daily is a complete mystery). We like mild, long lasting insulins and give them twice daily. And it works. We have FIV cats here who are being successfully treated.

Most cats here are on under 2 units; lots are in the .5 range. 10 units is a lot of insulin. Giving it once daily means he drops low fast and then bounces back up for the next 16 hours.

We test our cats at home so we can be sure that it is safe to give the dose we are planning on and to see how the insulin is working during the cycle. That would be very important for your kitty as he is probably very high after that initial drop. (our theory is that we would never give our two legged children insulin blindly, coming back in two weeks to the doctor for a blood glucose level. We treat our 4 legged children with the same care). We have taught hundreds of people how to test and would love to help you.

We also feed wet low carb food. It makes a huge difference. In my cat, it meant a 100 point drop overnight with the switch from dry. BUT don't switch until you are testing. If we hadn't tested the next am and had given our usual amount, he would have hypoed. A vet explains why wet low carb is best here: http://www.catinfo.org

Please read the info on this site and ask questions. Our protocol works and we would love to help you help your kitty.

 

Good Morning Fatina Marie,
You are a very kind person to help this kitty in need. I am also new to treating diabetes, and this site is honestly full of VERY knowledgeable people (I can honestly say they know feline diabetes better than most vets). I will not be able to give you the kind of information they are going to give you, but I may be able to clear up some fuzzy parts for you. Also, if you edit your original post and add a question mark icon, more people will be drawn to reading it.
My cat is also a skinny diabetic. He was a little chunky before dx but once the onset occurred, his body ate his fat and some of his muscle in order to try to survive. Diabetics Do drink and urinate a lot when their diabetes is uncontrolled. These points will be explained to you better as more people chime in. You will need to get a glucose meter and strips to do home testing. This is VERY important and the people here will teach you how to do it. Why is it so necessary? Because we never want to give a cat insulin without knowing where their bg level is (it can jump around quite a bit). If we were to give the insulin when the kitty already has a low bg we could send them into Hypo (there is a sticky about this at the top of the main forum list). Hypo can cause seizures, coma and death.
You will be guided as to how to monitor the bg levels and shoot safe insulin amounts to help bring kitty into more manageable numbers.
Dry food is no good for ANY cat. I didn't know this (and I worked for a vet for years), but it is packed with carbs (bad for bg) and hardly any moisture(also bad as kitties never seem to get enough no matter how much they drink). Wet food with a low carb count will help get kitties bg down and also add the moisture content his body needs. Most people here use fancy feast pate-the classics type without gravy, or friskies pates. These are way better for your guy than the vet prescribed wet food as they have way too many carbs.
I trusted and followed the advice of the people and this website and it hasn't failed me. The food change was noticed immediately, not days later. I took his blood reading, fed wet food instead of dry, and from then on he was WAY lower. It was very exciting :lol:
You are going to be great at this. Everyone here will help you, and there is a ton of information (stickies) that you should read to help yourself too
Did you name Kitty yet?

 

Wow. You guys are quick. Thanks for the ton of info. He says the reason he prescribes the Novolin is because it fits better into most people's schedule, since the peak action time is at eight hours. I am in school full time, so there are days when I am gone from 8:30am until 3:30pm. I could probably arrange to leave class a few minutes early and arrive at the next a few minutes late, so I could be home around noon, but there are no guarantees about that in the Spring.

I asked him about the dry food and his explanation was that the carbs can be used once he has insulin to process it. I was never told what the purpose of adding the dry vs. just giving more wet. I do know that the dry sits in their stomachs longer so perhaps this is something to keep him satiated until he isn't in starvation mode anymore. Of course, I have limited knowledge in this area, as it pertains to felines, so I quite possibly don't know anything about what I just said. He did say that I can start mixing in regular canned cat food with the A/D, and I know the A/D is a very fatty, rich food, to help him gain weight.

I'll start poking around some and see what I can find. And you can just call me Tina. I added the "Fa" because Tina Marie was already taken. I was just playing around with some options and that one made me chuckle so I went with it. Thanks again! - Tina

 

Fatina does sound like fun. :mrgreen:

Please read the vet site re wet food vs dry. Cats are carnivores. The first ingredient in dry food ( and most of the rest ) are grains - cornmeal and chickenmeal etc. Your kitty can fill up on low carb meat based food just as well as he fills up on dry and it is much better suited to his needs. If he needs more calories, you can use our food charts to pick a higher calorie low carb food. Unregulated cats are literally starving. We suggest feeding them more wet. it can be left out for free feeding. Some people freeze it and let it thaw; lots of us use automatic feeders.

Insulin works best in cats, given twice daily, 12 hours apart. That seems like it would fit your schedule.

 

Hi Tina,
The reason your vet gave for using N insulin sounds like a standard answer we are all given :lol: I was given Caninsulin with the same reasoning. These harsh insulins are in my opinion, truly not a good option for cats. My boy crashed on it a couple times fast and hard and I was very lucky to be home and testing when it happened. It takes them from a high, dumps them to a low really quickly and then wears off. Kinda like a V shape. This does not help them feel good or regulate their bodies. We want them to be in the good zone most of the time, not just for an hour or two, so we use gentler, longer lasting insulins. I believe that a lot of vets just don't have the experience using outside of the N insulins. I also believe most are not nutritionists, and that's ok. Most human doctors are also not nutritionists. But that being said, it is important for us to learn as much as we can about how proper nutrition and amounts of carbs/proteins/fats, etc affect our kitties bodies. You will see on this board, that a lot of cats have gone off insulin because their diabetes is completely managed with proper nutrition. (Ahhh...I dream of the day )
We operate on a 12/12 hour system. I personally am away from my house for a minimum of 11 hours/day 5-7days/week. I get up in the morning, check Twice's bg an hour before his shot time. Check it again at shot time to make sure the numbers are climbing, feed him, then give him his Lantus. When I get home, I check again as soon as I can, repeat the above procedure (test/feed/shoot), then do several spot tests in the evening. A lot of us have crazy schedules, but there are ways to make any schedule work. We can help you there too.
Welcome to FDMB. I have a feeling you're going to be very happy to be here

 

You said "He says the reason he prescribes the Novolin is because it fits better into most people's schedule, since the peak action time is at eight hours." You are talking about Novolin N, right? Novolin is a name for a family of insulins that include R (regular), N (neutral) and mixtures on N and R. N is the only one that may be suitable for cats. The 8 hour peak action for N is true for humans but for cats it is about 4 to 5 hours.

 

hello and welcome to the board

I would agree with the others

Home test - start home testing to keep him safe ( especially since his insulin is so harsh) and see how he is doing. Cats can go into remission so you don't want to shoot without testing first.

Food - once you are home testing change his food to a low carb wet. This could even cause remission so its important you home test first. Many of us feed Fancy feast classic pates, Friskies pates or Wellness grain free.. what country do you live in?

insulin - can you ask the vet about a better insulin like Lantus, Levemir or Prozinc? They are good for cats, not so harsh and even can cause remission

To answer your questions...
He will start peeing and drinking less once his diabetes is controlled. Wet food will also provide some moisture and reduce the drinking. Good control will also help him gain weight. For now just feed him as much as he likes but weigh him once a week or two and adjust accordingly. You can feed a few meals through the day or free feed.. its up to you.

Gently press the spot for a few seconds after injecting to seal the wound. Also check when you inject that you didn't accidentally poke out the other side. If you do smell insulin , whatever you do, dont inject more insulin! You don't know how much went in and could cause a hypo!

Wendy

 

Thanks again for all of the information. He is doing/looking pretty good today. He drenched his box last night and had a little soft stool, but there is no evidence of either in the past five hours. He has solids and his box is relatively dry. The vet originally gave us a diet plan to follow, but he always acted like he was starving. I confirmed with him, yesterday, that we can actually feed him twice what we were. Kitty is happy with that arrangement. I also managed to get his insulin in him uneventfully this morning, so I am sure that helped. I tried to do it by myself yesterday, while he was distracted eating the last of his food, rather than have Brian hold him for me. He doesn't struggle or put up any fuss when we do it that way, so I am thinking we will just stick with that for now. He is playing, cleaning himself, and otherwise acting like he feels a ton better. His nose and ears are all pinking up, as well. I noticed, last week he didn't have any hair on his ears. Looks like, within a span of a week, it is growing back? He looks exponentially better, whatever is going on. All good stuff.

Brian should be here, in an hour or so, with his glucose meter. We have a one-touch ultra, but the strips are prohibitively expensive, so we went ahead and bought a Relion Micro from Wal-mart with the lancing tool. I've read in a few places where people are using them with success.

As far as peak time goes, I may have misunderstood what that means. He told me that different types of insulin have different peak times and this one allows a second feeding at around eight hours after administration, which was convenient for most people. I took those two sentences and made my own kind of sense out of them. My understanding of things can be quite linear and literal, at times. It is Novolin N, however. I guess I just need to do some more research.

We usually try to pick well thought out names for our animals, but he came to us around Halloween, and he was pretty scary looking, so we named him Frankenkitty, Frank for short. I'm sure it will migrate to something more meaningful, but for now...he is Frank. :lol:

 

Oh, and I live in North Carolina, in the US. Der... was rereading and saw that I missed that question.

 

N is just not an insulin we see prescribed for cats and with good reason. If you can get some readings in today with your new meter, you will probably be able to see why. It causes a sharp drop early in a short cycle and then wears off fast. Within 8 hours (if that) it is gone and the cat is in high numbers again. It is often used in dogs but they metabolize insulin differently than cats; the two species are seldom treated in the same way or with the same insulin.

Lantus, Levemir (human insulins very successfully used in cats) and ProZinc (specifically marketed for cats) are all better choices. They give the cat a nice gentle curve, going slowly down to their lowest point in 5-7 hours after the shot and slowly rising back up to a point about 12 hours after the shot that is usually near their morning preshot level.

I am still not sure whether you are using N or Humulin N (neither are very good for cats) but here is some info that might be helpful:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/pet-insulin.htm

We have a number of experienced members in North Carolina using Lantus and ProZinc who are long time hometesters. Let us know your city if you want some hands on help or current info.

 

The brand name is Novolin N, which from what I understand is Humulin under a different brand name. I attempted about five times today to get a reading. He is very patient about it, but he just isn't bleeding much at the site. He is eating now so I will read the instructions again to make sure I didn't miss something and try again in a little while. :/

 

Okay, I went at it freehand instead of trying to use the lancing tool and the little blood bubble popped right up with no effort. After eating, his blood glucose was 255. A little high, but nowhere near as high as it got.

So if I am understanding this correctly, I should check his blood sugar before he eats in the morning then every hour for the next six hours to get this elusive creature we call the curve? I have search and am having trouble finding specifics, which is probably due to my own error. I am wondering how often this curve needs to be tested for and also, we were told to give him insulin right after eating. So eating an hour ahead of time, I am assuming, does not pose any danger to him? Or should we stay on the schedule the vet suggested until we are able to get a curve?

I apologize for the pestering. I am trying to find out as much as I can by searching before asking. There is quite a bit of information here though. I think I could spend all day digging and still have questions. haha

 

You are NOT pestering. We are all here, paying it forward because others answered our questions when we were wondering. And welcome to the Vampire Club! Congrats on getting blood.

With N, I would test before each shot, feed (to hopefully slow down the steep drop) and then shoot. For a curve, test every 2 hours from preshot to preshot. (I think every hour is unnecessary and too hard on cat and bean). Get some neosporin with pain relief to put on his ears as it will get a little sore testing so much. (over time, they get tougher)

 

Thank you. I managed to get three readings so far. I tested every hour since he ate and we are actually going in the opposite direction.

4:15 - 255
5:15 - 340
6:15 - 437


He is starting to lose patience with the process, I can tell. He probably isn't feeling great with his sugar climbing like that, either, so I am sure he will be grateful for me to lay off of him for a while. He is hovering over the water bowl...again. Definite signs that something is off. I've got some of that ointment that is made for cats...I forget what it is called so I will call it kitty Neosporin. :lol:

 

How many hours since the shot was 4:15? It could be that his insulin has already worn off.

You can see why we were worried about the one shot a day with a fast acting insulin. It leaves too many hours with him sitting in high numbers.

 

He gets his insulin at 6:30 am, after eating. He eats again at 3:30pm.

 

So it lasted about 7 hours. The rise at +5, +6 may have been to food, but also the insulin was petering out. (Since we are all in different time zones, we do time this way: 5 hours since the shot is +5, 3 hours since is +3 etc. Much easier for us to figure things out.)

You can see why once daily dosing won't work. He will now either stay in the 400s or continue to climb until he gets insulin again in the am. This is not safe for him to sit in those high numbers. Giving him a second shot daily will help keep the numbers down, but it still will only last the 8 hours, not 12.

 

Out of curiosity, I tested him again at 8:15 (I guess it's +14?) and it just says HI, so he is over 600 at this point. Do we just ride this out until the morning or does he need to go back to the vet tonight? We called and they won't tell us anything unless we bring him in.

He has only been taking the insulin since last Saturday. If it only lasts him eight hours max, will it hurt him to give him another shot tonight? He doesn't get anymore for another ten hours.

 

You could give him another shot tonight. But are you still giving 10 units? Did you give 10 units this am? I am very nervous about telling anyone to give that much insulin. But it didn't seem to do much today, unless he dropped like a stone in the first hour or two. Clearly the first shot has worn off now.

Remember that none of us are vets; we are just people with diabetic cats. And very few of us have any experience with N. (I do not. I know ProZinc.) I know it is difficult to get advice that is different than what your vet says. And it is very difficult for you to try to figure out this insulin on your own. (Did you read the article I linked earlier?)

If you do give him more insulin, monitor at least a couple times in the first few hours. As we have said, the disadvantage of N is that it can drop them fast, even from high levels. Once you have a full two cycles of numbers, you really need to talk to the vet and ask for a better insulin. Your numbers should be proof N is not working. Going from 600 to 200 or below is like riding a horrid roller coaster.

Lovely of the vet to require you to bring him in and cost your more money, just for them to test him and see that he is high because they have prescribed a poor insulin at a ridiculous dose………

You also need to be testing for ketones, When a kitty is high, it is wise to stay on top of the possible ketones also. You buy the regular ketone strips that humans use and stick one in his urine stream. If he won't let you do that, we have several ways to collect a sample.

 

I did read that literature. I am hesitant to give him 10 units, too. I am going to retest and if he is still above 600, we will just go the the ER vet and get him going on something different asap. I am kind of paranoid now, after this first go-round. What if we spend another few hundred dollars and get another doc that knows farkle about the issue? What do you do though? lol

 

I sent a pm to someone in NC but haven't heard back. You could call the emergency vet first and ask what kind of insulin they prescribe. If they say lantus, levemir or pro zinc, you'd be better off than you are now. If they say N, make another call?

 

They said that a change in insulin would be up to the daytime clinic. :/

 

Which, we don't need a prescription to get insulin here...

 

You explained that you were given n insulin, 10 units and told to dose once daily and he is high on the meter?

 

Is there more than one ER in your town?

 

Sorry, didn't mean to leave you hangin'. We went ahead and took him, on the off chance that something positive would come out of it.

Vet did say that 10 units was awfully high and may be the reason why he is spiking, due to his body compensating for initial values that are too low. I forgot what he said it was called. He didn't have access to his records so he couldn't change too much. He couldn't suggest a different insulin but he did say that it would be okay to give it to him twice a day, only three units, 12 hours apart. Anyway, he gets no more insulin until 6:30am to keep him on schedule. He was running a slight fever though and had some suspicious bacteria in his stool so he is going on Clavamox.

I will definitely be making a few phone calls on Monday. I took him to a different vet that could do a chem panel in-house so we could get results asap and start treating whatever was wrong with him. I will probably go ahead and follow-up with him next week and then have them send his records over to my regular vet and go from there. The ER vet seems to be echoing everything I am hearing here, so hopefully we will be on a better path to stabilizing this kitty. I will let you know how things are going in the morning... which isn't that far away. :lol:

 

I was worried. Glad you took him in. If he has an infection and such high numbers, be sure to check for ketones starting today. An infection and high numbers can lead to DKA, a life threatening condition:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/ketones.htm

 

At 2+ this morning, he had a bg of 432. We called the vet and he said he was pretty happy with that number. They also checked him for ketones last night and there were not any. We check him again in about an hour.

We knew it was going to be a struggle getting him situated, especially with him being FIV and approximately 14+ years old. That's quite okay with me. I find the process of learning it all oddly fascinating. I just don't want poor Frank sitting around feeling like crap all the time where we are just extending a miserable existence.

 

You are definitely on the right track - checking his blood sugar at home, ketone testing. I hope after seeing your numbers this weekend, your vet will prescribe a milder, longer lasting insulin. If not, and you want to change vets, we can see if there is a FD friendly vet near you. ( I did think their response to your call last night was pretty outrageous.)

What food is he eating? Now that you are checking his blood gluocose levels, you could start switching to a wet low carb food. Have we shared this vet's website: www.catinfo.org It is best to switch over slowly, substituting a bit of wet for the dry and then gradually adding more wet and less dry. Switching from dry Science Diet to wet Fancy Feast made Oliver's numbers come down 100 points overnight. (We just switched overnight, but Oliver had a bit of a cast iron stomach. ) For some cats, the switch can really help bring down the numbers.

I am sorry I am the only one responding to you. People generally respond to threads by beans who use their same insulin and I don't know anyone on the site who uses N on a regular basis. Once you change insulins, you can start posting on the Insulin Support group for that insulin and get lots of feedback.

 

We had a rough day today. 3 units at 5:30am and he stayed around 400 until about 4:30 pm. We gave him 3 units at 5:30pm and he stayed on HI all evening. I finally gave in and elected to give him 5 units at 8:30pm. His bg is around 400 again. No ketones present, so far. Thank goodness tomorrow is Monday. I figure it will be 10 hours at his next dose time so, I am going to give him his 3 in the morning, as planned, and make my calls. I know the three will bring him down below 400, at least so that'll get him until the vet opens.

 

I am surprised that 3 units 2 times a day has given you about the same (high) numbers that 10 units once a day did. The insulin doesn't seem to be doing much either way. I don't know if that is the N insulin or the food or that he needs a lot of insulin.

Are you going to try for a different insulin tomorrow? What are you thinking about food?

Be sure to test for ketones.

 

Hi Tina and sugardude Frank and welcome to the FDMB.

With the quicker onset of the N insulins (Humulin, Novolin), it's very important that your cat has eaten 30-45 minutes before you give the shot. That quick steep drop that Sue has been talking about is one reason why the suggested order of steps for using the N insulins are test, feed, wait 30-45 minutes, shoot. You want that food to be in the cat's system before you inject the insulin. That way, the food has a better chance to counter balance the insulin. This is a bit different than the normal step pattern of test, feed, shoot in about a 15 minute window with the longer duration insulins.

You talked about a peak of 8 hours with the N insulin. Peak is the lowest BG (blood glucose) number in the cycle which with the N insulins is normally around 3-5 hours after the shot. The duration or how long the insulin is lasting is typically more around 8 hours in cats. Lots of new vocabulary to learn in this sugardance you are doing with Frank. Hang in there, it does get easier.

The Hill's A/d canned food is 12% carbs. Not sure what the dry is, but usually 5-15 percent higher in carbs than the wet food. The canned A/d is an ok choice, but we recommend trying for under 10% carbs if you can.

I'm glad to see you are doing some home testing and have lowered the dose of insulin. Let us know how things progress in this sugardance.

 

Sue - I am going to call my regular vet tomorrow, first thing, and ask them what they can do for me. This guy eats a lot. He is eating 1 can of A/D in the morning with 1/4 cup of dry high protein Whiskas. Then he eats two cans of A/D in the evening with 1/4 cup of dry. We were feeding him half that and he always acted like he was starving so I called the vet and he said to double his food. At this point, it could be a combination of all three. The vet he saw last night said not to change his food until his insulin levels were worked out. He hasn't peed much today. I finally got a ketone reading tonight. He let me lift his tail and put the stick in his stream so there is one thing made more simple.

Deb - Thank you for the information. I went over the onset/peak action information again. I think I misunderstood it the first time so I hope I didn't mess him up by giving him 5 units an hour after he had 3 units. My thinking was that, if he was on 10 previously, and the insulin tends to wear off within 8 hour, then at +12, he was free and clear and 7 would not put him at any more risk than he was in when he was getting 10 in the mornings. So if peak action time is around 3-5 hours, I am curious if he is testing HI an hour after he eats and gets his shot, if I should be waiting until that 3-5 hour window before I assume something is wrong enough to think about him needing more insulin.

I appreciate everyone's input. :smile:

 

I'm not sure what times you have been giving shots, but I would not dose more than every 8 hours. You just can't assume that he will stay high at or over +3 - it's quite possible that the food would bring the numbers up and then he'd go down again.

What do you think about replacing the dry with wet low carb? It might help bring down his numbers. I don't understand the vet waiting on a food change - his numbers are high enough that anything that might bring down his numbers would be a good thing. It's a little like a human diabetic continuing to eat donuts daily and taking insulin, but not giving up the donuts until his numbers go down. Since you are testing, you can watch his numbers carefully and adjust if the food makes a big downward trend.

 

I agree, as far as the food goes. It doesn't make sense to keep him on a diet that screws his sugar up while trying to stabilize his sugar. Good news is, we are at 4.5+ for the 3u and 3.5+ for the 5u and his bg is at 279. Probably not the smartest thing I have done, but he seems to be feeling exponentially better. It will be 11+ when his next shot is due.

 

Nice to see a number in the 200s. I think a schedule with more frequent shots is a good and doable idea, but I would give one every 8 hours, which is usually the max N lasts. Even that often requires alot of monitoring, but shots more often can mean overlap and mean monitoring every hour or so during that overlap, and set up an opportunity for a hypo.

Especially if you eliminate the dry, be careful with the dose and monitor often.

 

Hi Tina. Looks like quite the time you're having. Not sure if this helps, but when my kitty lost all his weight at the beginning and was extremely unregulated he ate like a beast. First the kibble food from the vet plus cans of vet recommended food. I switched him to a low carb diet as soon as I found this site. I was home testing and dropped his caninsulin to 1u twice a day to start over. He stull ate like mad and went hypo twice. I then switched to lantus. He continued to eat at least 5 cans of ff a day and always thirsty. After a couple days he started to level out and he wasn't starving all the time. As long as their numbers are high their bodies will react like this as it is trying to help the kitty survive. Also on the caninsulin his bg was lowest at 4 hours after the shot. Then shot straight back up. I personally found it way to hard to regulate him at all on caninsulin but much smoother on Lantus. Just my story. Wish I could be more help

 

Hi Tina -

I'm the one Sue contacted in NC - I'm in Wilson. Where are you located? How is Frank today?

Most vets here tend to use ProZinc (available only through veterinarians) or Lantus. I started Grayson on ProZinc, but have since changed to Levemir, due to another condition.

I'll send you a PM with contact info. Please feel free to call me when you get a chance. I work til 5.

Lu-Ann

 

We had a better day today. He didn't do well with the 3 and 3 so I defaulted with the original plan. He was HI preshot, I gave him the 10 units and he came down to 432 +2. I've tested for ketones four times since last night (all I have seen him pee) and only got one strip that might have been a trace, but it was hard to tell. So here is the interesting trend, based on my limited understanding of things so far, of course. The lowest bg I have gotten on him so far has been at +9 and it was 125. I feel all sorts of fantastic about that, at the moment. He has also gained a pound since last Saturday. We did take his dry food down from 1/4 cup to an 1/8 and now a tablespoon. I won't be here to watch him during the day tomorrow so I am going to give him the tablespoon of dry then when I am here Wednesday, I will try cutting it out all together and see how it works out.

Bah... in the process of writing this, he was eating. Finished eating and went into some long, loud, heavy breathing, and shaking his head like he couldn't breath. I am starting to wonder if this isn't just too hard on this poor old, sick, cat. I gave him a little kayro lick and he is acting like he is hungry again. I feel so bad for this poor boy. Overall, his condition has remarkably improved, but he is laboring for it. :/

 

When you see anything odd - test his blood. He could be too low. ... how is he doing now?

Wendy

 

He's fine now. Or at least back to standard. He finished eating and is alert but resting calmly.

 

The 125 is an encouraging number! After what dose was that? You are catching on fast to this sugar dance. It may be that he does feel punky. Going from a bg level of HI down to 200 or even 300 is a steep drop and must feel crummy.

Lu Ann can be a great resource for you. You should see "1 new message" at the top. If you click on it, you can read her private message.

 

That was at +9 of 10u of Novolin N.

 

Then what was +12? If it doesn't go back up pretty high, I'd be careful dosing 10 units twice daily. Since the lowest point for N is usually around +4, the dose lasted a long time, which often means the dose is too high. I'd consider splitting the dose in the middle, maybe 6-8 units every 12 hours. Does that sound reasonable? With the wet food kicking in, I'd be cautious till both food and insulin start working together and you get some consistent numbers.

 

Oh no, he only got the 10 once. +12 is still an hour away, but I will let you know what I get at that time.

From what I have observed, he gets his shot at 6:30a, bg creeps down until about 3:30. It was at 432@ +2, this morning. Then he starts rising by about 85-90 points per hour until he is over 600 in the evening. I've relayed all of this information to the vet and he insists on going forward with the 10u x1. He goes back in for testing Friday. Then I am going to have his records transferred to my regular vet. We took him to an out of county vet because we didn't know what was wrong with him and they do their own chem panel in-house, so results can be achieved quickly. There should be very little reason he can't start seeing our regular vet, after that point. I've been on the phone with them non-stop since last Saturday, they might be ready for me to move on anyway. :lol:

I've seen that there is a spreadsheet on this site for logging these things, but I have been able to locate it. I think I am Facebook spoiled. I've used and designed these forum sites for ages and now I can't seem to navigate them.

 

What dose are you giving now? How often?

Here's the instructions for the spreadsheet:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207

 

Thank you for the link. Since he did so poorly on the 3&3, I'm giving him the 10u, once a day, at 6:30am.

 

I'll be glad when you get your spreadsheet up. It will be so much easier to look at the different doses and the once vs twice daily doses and see what might be working.

 

+12 he is reading HI. :/ I'll upload any other updates into the spreadsheet.

 

Okay, done. Seems like so little information for as many times as we have stuck him with assorted instruments.

 

But it does make the picture clearer. The 5 units looked pretty good, giving him a 276 at +4. The ten units look like too much to me - dropping from HI to 125 is a huge drop.

Why aren't you giving insulin tonight? I wouldn't think you'd want him HI until tomorrow am.

If he were mine, I would try 5 units twice daily and see if that gets you some good midcycle numbers.