Ashley Is Over 500 + Trace Ketones

Hillary (Hillary & Maui) came over today to show me how to home test and went over some other diet issues. (Thank you so much Hillary!)
So this is the first time I've actually seen her numbers throughout the day/night.
She's still eating dry food...Merrick BG Tuna and I changed her wet food from Hills C/D (for her brother Dudley's urinary crystals) to low carb turkey & giblets. I actually read somewhere on the board that the Fancy Feast Classic Turkey & Giblets is a good one, although I don't see it on Binky's list so don't know the values.

Now i know i'm not going to use the proper terminology here since I'm a newbie, but here goes:
Saturday 11/13:
No AMPS test
Gave 1.5 units of Prozinc at 8am
BG at +4 hours was 406
BG at +6 hours was 456
BG at +8 hours was 487
PMPS 503
My husband convinced me to go back to the 2 unit dose she was originally perscribed by the vet. (Vet told me this past Tues. to go to 3 units.)(I'd been giving her 2 units for 3 weeks.)
Gave 2 units of Prozinc at 8pm
BG at +3 hours was 563

WHOA...we're off the charts now and there isn't even a color coding for these numbers on the spreasheet!

Why is this happening? What is TOO HIGH? Should I worry? Can anything happen if it goes too high?

confused_cat confused_cat confused_cat

 

Re: Ashley Is Well Over 500 - Should I be worried?

sheryl have you been dosing your cat for awhile before you started testing?

 

Re: Ashley Is Well Over 500 - Should I be worried?

ok just reread your post, 2 weeks without testing. we don't know if this is too much insulin or too little.
you may know already that too much insuling can produce high #'s
i would stick with the 1 Unit for a few days and thru testing see what you really have going on.
don't be afraid of that number. it will be coming down soon. but you have to know why it's there.

 

Re: Ashley Is Well Over 500 - Should I be worried?

I did not know that too much insulin can cause high numbers.

Thank you for letting me know. I will go back to 1 tomorrow. This is so confusing!

Can changing the doses this frequently do any harm?

 

Re: Ashley Is Well Over 500 - Should I be worried?

well you've been shooting 2 units for 3 weeks, is that right?
i assume the vet got your cat in for a curve...did you have to bring your cat in and leave her for like 6 hours? that would be a curve.
the learning curve is steep at first but not to worry...it will all become part of your vocabulary and fit into your life in no time.
we don't like to switch doses around this quickly if we can help it, but vet's tend to start higher than we do. and without testing you really don't know if she ever got low enough numbers to have what is called rebound. or panicky liver. if a cat's numbers go to low than the liver spits out a glucose to protect the kitty and generally if your kitties been in high numbers for awhile than liver spits out enough to keep her there.

this is probably too much information :lol: but we do start low go slow here.
do you know your kittie's dx number?
how long was she symptomatic before you had her dx'd.
and was she tested for ketones? very important. if not you can do this yourself and would want to.
keto-stix from any drug store...even walmart. stick stick in urine stream and get the results.
lori

 

Re: Ashley Is Well Over 500 - Should I be worried?

btw, your terminology is perfect but you can leave everything out and just write
+4 her number
+6 her number
+8 her number
pmps her number her dose.

we will all know what you mean.

 

Re: Ashley Is Well Over 500 - Should I be worried?

I noticed that you also still feed her dry food. Is she free feeding? If so, that also will contribute to the high numbers since most dry foods are high in carbs and she may have eaten shortly before you tested. I suggest you start to wean her off of the dry food or remove it completely. Once you eliminate the dry food from her diet, most likely you will see a lot lower numbers.

 

Re: Ashley Is Well Over 500 - Should I be worried?

It is confusing but it is possible that too much insulin can cause high numbers. It is called rebound: http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Somogyi_rebound If you go over their ideal dose, then their body produces more sugar to combat the insulin.

If you do go back to one unit, be sure to pick up some ketone strips at the drug store and test for ketones. (In fact, it would be a good idea anyway.) These are the same strips that human diabetics use, and they will test for the ketones in the urine.

As Lisa said, as soon as you can get her off dry, you will also see better numbers. To change, you can change abruptly as long as her stomach is okay with it or you can mix half dry and half wet for awhile. Just be sure to be on top of her numbers (so glad Hillary got you hometesting :smile: ) The change to wet can make a sudden downward movement in the number, so be sure to test before every shot.

You are doing great. Now that you can stay on the top of the numbers and adjust the dose as needed, you will be able to see what is really going on. The next step is a spreadsheet so you can keep track of the numbers: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207

 

Re: Ashley Is Well Over 500 - Should I be worried?

Sue, Ashley's spreadsheet should be there in my signature.

Dx# was 481 on 10/13/10.

Ashely went in for a curve on Tuesday 11/9/10, her lowest number that day was 375. This is the day he told me to go to 3 units, which I gave her that night. I dropped it back down by Thursday after reading the advice on this board.

This morning she was AMPS 423. I overslept this morning and gave her her food and shot of 1 unit at about 8:45. It also took me a while to get her AMPS...cold ears, lack of sleep, + havn't mastered a technique yet.

Dr. Lisa, I do not free feed anymore. I give them a little bit of dry (went back to the Waltham S/O today...since the Merrick BG Tuna (can't find nutrition values on this one) may also be contributing). Then I give them their canned wet food at the same time. (Fancy Feast Turkey & Giblets again today.) They've both been inhaling their food over the course of about an hour and then it's usually all gone until their next feeding. I have decreased the amount of dry food significantly over the last several weeks. Ashley seems to always be hungry lately and follows me into the kitchen everytime i go in there. Could this be caused by the decrease in carbs? Dudley seems to be going with the flow.

I hope that answered all of the recent questions you guys asked

I miss sleeping late on weekends :sad:

 

Re: Ashley Is Well Over 500 - Should I be worried?

Your spreadsheet is there and looks great. Sorry.

How much are you feeding of the wet? Unregulated diabetics are literally starving as their bodies don't process the food well. You can feed her more until you get her numbers down. Even a little bit of dry can send numbers up with some kitties that are really carb sensitive. The sooner you can get rid of all dry, the better.

They let you sleep late in the morning before? :mrgreen:

 

Re: Ashley Is Well Over 500 - Should I be worried?

Yes, they did let me sleep in before, when I was free feeding. Even after, Ashely doesn't wake me, she just sits in the kitchen and waits. Dudley will come up and walk all over me when he wants me to wake up or when he's just feeling mushy. I love a fluffy belly on my head first thing in the morning! cat_pet_icon
ooh i just found the "more smiles"...such cute ones! me now laptop_smiley me in 2 munites drinking11

I'm feeding each of them one of the small cans of Fancy Feast + about a 1/4 cup of dry food (each). I plan to phase the dry food out completely over the next week.

 

Re: Ashley Is Over 500 - Trace Ketones!

Forgot to mention Ketones...
I did buy a bottle and just caught Ashley in the litter box. The test strip showed a trace. It was slightly lighter than the trace color. Is this bad?

Just tested her at just about +2 and it's at 500 :sad:

 

Re: Ashley Is Well Over 500 - Should I be worried?

The dry food can cause some cats to have VERY HIGH BG. My Shadoe will have numbers in the 400s, if she gets just a few pieces in her mouth from the civvies food. It's been over a year but I have finally taught her to stay away from the dry foods, but I still cover the dry when I am not around.
Seriously, in the beginning, she would scoot over to the dry and I would see her and run across the room to shoo her away... the little thief knew and would grab a mouthful of maybe 5 pieces then run in the hall to eat her catch. I'd have to take it off the floor and out of her mouth, and she was NOT happy, but knew she was in the wrong. Even then, sure enough, I would see those 400s later on that day after a theft.

Removing the dry food from Ashley may get you some very nice lower numbers. Careful though, because you may have to reduce the dose quickly, once the dry food has cleared Ashley's system.

If they are eating the wet fine now, remove the dry immediately ... no need to phase it out. Cold turkey will be better.

 

LOL @ "after the theft"

I'm getting mixed opinions about quitting the dry food cold turkey.

My civvie is a crystal kitty, so i want him off of the dry food too! I can't believe I didn't realize how bad dry food is for them! :-x

 

quitting dry cold turkey is fine as long as the cat agrees to it. the only reason to adjust slowly is if your cat indicates as such.
i am very concerned that you dx number at the vet was lower than what you've got now with him on insulin. that is a ? factor of the dose being too high.
vet numbers are generally higher due to vet stress.
definetly want you to drop dose to 1u for this reason and also with the food change k?
lori

 

+4 226

does this indicate that she may have been getting too much insulin before?

 

let me check ss...brb

 

umm, do you know how to find your pm's?

 

have you just changed diet since last night?
if yes, this is the result of that.
if no, than i would suspect it's a result of bounce altho it usually does'nt present this way.
i'd like to get other eyes on it...as long as your testing you in good shape.

 

Sheyl. Nobody addressed the trace ketones yet. Give her water a couple syringes it in her if you need to. You want to make sure the ketones don't increase.

I am not the best at explaining ketones but others can give the 411 on it.

If you want to try dry removal go for it. See how she reacts. If she begs for dry count the kibbles and gi ve her 20 or so and slowly lower that number until she gets nothing.

You can give her chicken or deli meat and see if that will interst her more thank kibbles. Just keep in mind that's a snack not a complete meal.

And you are doing great. Mastering home testing puts you in control and gives you peace of mind.

 

Ashley,

Here is some info on ketones: http://www.felinediabetes.com/ketones.htm

And here are some possibilities for snacks to replace the crunchies: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=9172

BTW, 226 is certainly heading in the right direction!

 

after chatting (oops) with sheryl i'm betting $$$$ this kittie goes otj within a few months if that long.
anyone in?
mod's we know each other from east coast,,,friendly chat.

 

hmmm now that's an interesting bet. I met this cat and her humans and hmmmm...OK I'm in.

My guess once the dry is removed, I give this cat 3 months, 2 days to get broken. :mrgreen:

 

Something else to mention that might help you sleep in late in the mornings. We use an automatic feeder. We put frozen wet food in at night and program it to open at 6am. Niko sits and waits for it to work in the mornings and lets us sleep in.

 

good idea sue...if you can get a cat who can't break that system wide open. i know tom can :lol:
you met the cat hillary...so you have the advantage. i'll do one better. we have here one broken diabetic in 2 months 16 days. starting from all wet diet date. includes one near hypo incident. that i am certain sheryl will handle like a pro with the boards help.
this is what my magic 8 ball predicts. :mrgreen:

 

poor sheryl does'nt know what a broken cat is....but it is a good thing sheryl, a very good thing. some people break their diabetic cats and need to get a new one..only to break that one. all these broken cats laying around...what a mess.

 

broken cat = no more need for insulin = OTJ = remission!

 

i like 'broken'
specially for those that rescue a diabetic, only to have him break. poor souls are offered a new diabetic cat. we can always find you a new one. :lol:

 

::::raises hand::::: I would be one of those that adopted a diabetic only to break it..lol. But I can tell you, a lot of time just ditching the dry kibble will break your diabetic, it did my boy. We went from 485 at dx to right around 51 in two weeks of getting him off the dry food. Although while I was offered a replacement diabetic I had to turn down the offer because DH didn't want a bunch of broken cats all over the place. =)

Mel & Max (the broken diabetic)

 

Thanks for the faith & confidence ladies! I hope to have a broken diabetic real soon!
Ashley seems to be feeling good today, she's sleeping next to me right now. She groomed nicely and passed out. She's eaten quite a bit of Fancy Feast soup today too! She went back up to 326 at +6, but I gather that's still not bad.

I had a very nice convo with Lori and am feeling more confident and educated. This weekend has been very intense...hopefully this week will go well!

:RAHCAT

 

bet that +6 was liver talkin'.
don't despair the likely high you'll get tonight.
body has'nt seen a number that low in a while (who knows how long?) and will fight it and high #'s are the new normal for ashley (boy or girl kitty?)

 

Ashley is a girl.

I just tested her at +9 and got 463.

 

Not unexpected. As Lori said, a bounce back up wouldn't be unusual. She's not used to the 200's where she went today. You are gathering data so you can see patterns and figure out how the insulin is working.

 

Not to be a wet blanket here but don't yoink it a bit premature to be introducing a date when you think this cat might be off of insulin? It would be lovely but whart if it doesn't happen then or a month later or ....

You have a cat with some pretty high numbers and possible trace ketones...

 

jen this is all in fun. hillary and i know sheryl and she will handle any event that comes up i'm sure with competence and no bad feelings if our predictions are incorrect.
just hearing some of the details of Ashley's diabetic experience thus far leads us to believe she may be in it for a short haul.
if not...that's ok too.

 

Yes, I get that it was all in fun but I really found it a bit shocking (sorry for the typos, my blackberry was acting up). I pointed this out in public only because other people, including newbies, may be reading this thread and develop some very unrealistic expectations. Some cats NEVER go off of insulin....

 

definetly will be more mindful of that fact in future postings jen. :smile:

 

Ladies...I see that as a goal and will understand and keep working if it doesn't happen. Thanks for the concern!

I'm back at work today and not able to test her. I'll probably only be able to test at PMPS and then before bed, since we're going out to dinner down the shore (yup...the Jersey Shore) with visiting in-laws tonight.

Her numbers are still high. I gave very little dry food this morning. My husband is against me stopping the dry food cold turkey and he also disagrees with me dropping the insulin to 1 unit. That is not helping my mental state...at all.

At what point would I up the dose again? After dry food is gone and numbers are still high?
She did have a 226 yesterday at +4 with some dry food in her belly.

:dizcat

 

Has she been tested again for ketones? How is her food intake and water intake?

Honestly, I'm not a PZI user but you have more flexibility with PZI and I know a few people who would advocate getting more aggressive with those high numbers and possible trace ketones. From your brief history of hometesting it doesn't 'look' like rebound to me, just a cat who needs more insulin. Now that you are testing, I personally would be upping the dose to 1.5 again and getting spot checks inbetween.

Not sure why your hubby is concerned about the dry food though...what are his concerns? Is it that she won't eat or ??? As for his concerns about dropping the dose, most hubby's are uncomfortable with going against a vet's advice and this is understandable, they seem to have a bigger respect for authorities whereas 'moms' are more used to making their own informed decisions. I'm not trying to be sexist here by the way, it really does seem to hold true here over the years.

Does this help at all?

Jen

 

sherly i bet it's hard when the hubby dissagree's and the vet is ummm, shall we say, not all that up to date.
ask your husband on what he basis his thinking on.
you will find over a thousand diabetic cats have passed thru here and not a single one has gone into remission on the dry. it is simply too high in carbs and nutritionally unsound (which is almost beside the point) as for dosing. we are not stuck in cement on this dose but we need to see responses in his natural home environment to a sensible starting dose. considering he was dx'd at vet with a mid 400 number on dry kitty crack....well, that almost certainly means you can shave about 100 points off that number at home on proper diet.
the possible over shooting can very easily bring on the higher than vet's dx's number. i can't imagine going on insulin and getting higher numbers at home if the dose is right.

as for the crack (dry) your kitties prefer the wet so what is the problem there?
all i can say is we have years of experience with this and if he wants to trust us on nothing but the food issue it will be worth it.

 

jen she has a brief history of testing but a 3+ week history of shooting 2U's blind.
with her smaller than current dx # this is the concern of possible chronic rebound for a few weeks.
she should not at this point be higher than dx at the vet? agree/disagree?

 

Because you weren't hometesting from day one (don't worry, it took me MONTHS), we just don't know. But I fear that underdosing with trace ketones can get you into a whole lot of trouble and now that you are testing you have less to worry about re overdosing. I am telling you what I would do but that doesn't mean what I suggest or anyone else suggests is right, it is simply our opinion based on whatever personal experience we have. You can wait a day or two at that dose and see what happens or you can up the dose, there is no real way to know what is the right decision so it comes down to your personal choice. I wish there was something more concrete than that.

 

Not a single one? well, that's simply not true. There have been several cats here who have gone into remission on some of the lower carb dry foods. The first one that comes to mind is Lizz's Margherita, who absolutely will not eat wet food on her own, yet is no longer on insulin. Many years ago, Marcie's E-marie actually went into remission eating Hill's W/D.

This is the problem with absolute statements. They do not apply to every cat and we should avoid them at all costs.

 

the most concrete you can do is start at point A and as info. is gathered and if necessary move to point B.
Jen, why should she be in the 500's after 3+ weeks on 2U if her dx was in the 400's at the vets on dry food and now she is partially wet with dry.
should'nt that at the very least be tested.
i am prudent on this one and i think that is a prudent move. trace ketones taken into consideration. you can't force a number down that is liver panicked into being.
it could take weeks to learn if we don't go this route.
and this discussion could be taken up in pzi if you want some more eyes.

 

yep deanie you are right. but why are we confusing our basic tenent and fully understood philosophy. would you give your kids potatoe chips over salad for lunch if they were diabetic. it just seems argumentative to discuss this point.
and fwiw, her cats love the wet stuff.

 

Disagree.

Boo's glucose was only 326 at diagnosis, yet he shot up into the high 500's in the following weeks. He hadn't eaten at all the day before being diagnosed. Once his appetite came back (post-DKA), his values shot up, even though we had already started insulin. Thank goodness no one told me to drop his dose or he would have probably been right back in DKA again.

Each cat reacts differently. You can't make assumptions based on the way you think it should happen. I certainly would not recommend a dose decrease in a cat with trace ketones.

 

Deanie's point is that we should not give absolutes if we don't know whether they are true or not. There have been a few cats go into remission while on dry food and to say that a cat cannot is simply incorrect. Much better to say that the chances are much reduced, and that dry food in general is bad for cat's health.

As for the numbers, I stated I don't know for sure what the right decision is but this cat is in danger of being underdosed and developing ketones. I'm not taking responsibility for that one. And I don't believe in panicked livers, whatever that may be. If you are referring to the idea that it can take a few days for the hormones related to overdosing/rebound to clear, then yes, a few days to chill and see if a dose reduction works is not a bad idea. But ketones are a big concern and risk.

 

ok, are you kidding me???? you don't BELIEVE in panicked livers????
i cannot have this conversation in this thread as it is detrimental. why don't you take that over to think tank, pzi or lantus and see how many panicked livers are observed EVERY SINGLE DAY.
and jen, why are we 'argueing' here. did you not get my pm?

 

Testing during the weekdays is usually non existent for many people because they are at work. That's OK because by testing in the evenings, and on weekends, you will have an idea how Ashley reacts to insulin.

The dry food is causing the high numbers. There have been many cats that have had their diet changed and they no longer needed insulin. Depending on the sensitivity of the cat, you will have varying levels of numbers.

The dry food, if taken away cold turkey but leaving the dose at 2u may result in some dangerously low BG. The dry food carbs can stick around in the body for a few days so you may not see any immediate change if you stop the dry, but you will soon enough. That's why some may decrease their dose because they know the numbers are going to drop. There was one cat who was getting something like 20u as a dose and eating dry food. Once that dry food was taken away, that dose dropped like a runaway elevator and got down to something like 1 or 2u as a dose.

I can't comment on your insulin, but maybe you can get DH to agree to a trial test on the weekend? Try to keep decreasing the dry and have it stopped by Friday, then do some semi curves on the weekend - you can then see how the diet change has affected numbers.
The dry food is what I call kitty krack; I had a rough time getting Shadoe completely off dry because that's all she ate for 6years, but now, she's given up on the dry. Her numbers are better, her coat is better, she just seems better.

BG numbers at home and at the vet can be hugely different. When I take mine to the vet, I test at home, then again at the vet, then again when we get home again. Shadoe goes very HIGH at the vet, but Oliver goes LOW. When we get home, they always return to their 'true' numbers. Just think how stressed you are when you are sick and go to the dr; you are worried about being there so I bet our cats feel a similar sort of stress. The vet based those high numbers for the choice of dose.

It's OK if cold turkey is not the way you go; gradual removal is just fine and will be not as stressful for anybody, but ultimately, you want to aim for OTJ status, and as has been said, don't expect reaching OTJ if you stick with the dry; it's rare..but possible

If you are cutting back on the dry food, you may not really need to be thinking of an increase yet because once all the dry clears the body you will need to give less insulin.
Think of a tug of war: You have the dry food on one side and the insulin on the other. If you take the pull of the dry off one end, your balance on the other end will need less insulin.

I have always tried to be home to test when I have made changes, then I am able to step in if needed.

 

I have a feeling that livers get used to the wrong numbers, and then when they get a taste of the right numbers, mr. liver goes OMG! This is soo wrong! It takes awhile to convince the liver that the right numbers really ARE the right numbers.
Just like a nice sunny day on new years and you go for a polar bear swim... you hit that water and your body says to your brain, OMG! Are you crazy? That stuff's cold! And body reacts to that cold.
I believe in panicky livers; I just wish I had something to say about ketones, but I have been fortunate in that regard to have no experience, so I leave those suggestions to ones who know.
We may want to reduce a dose, but if it may end up causing harm, best to wait. About all I know on ketones is that they are a major concern and trump the FD side of things. I think.

 

Have you retested the ketones?

Gayle is right - at this point, the ketones are the #1 problem, and you need to watch them like crazy. Forget the BGs for now - decreasing insulin in a cat that may be showing ketones in the urine is far too dangerous. Ketones can go from trace to large in a flash, so please do not adjust insulin doses down until you are sure he is ketone-free.

If you are not sure if the strip showed trace ketones, or just darkened because it got wet, dip one in water and see if the colour is the same as what you saw. If still unsure, please have your vet check.

Once you know that he is ketone free, start removing the dry food and replacing it with low carb canned and watch the BGs very carefully.

But for now, ketones are the concern.

 

Karen, what are other things most important that should be done?
I have heard lots of fluids - is that correct?
Also, test as often as you can to see that you don't miss any improving or worsening.

 

Not Karen but...ensure adequate food, adequate insulin, adequate hydration, test urine as often as possible, take to the vet at the first sign of moderate ketones or clinical signs ...

Drinking excessive amounts of water OR no water
Excessive urination
Diminished activity
Not eating for over 12 hours
Vomiting
Lethargy and depression
Weakness
Breathing very fast
Dehydration
Ketone odor on breath (smells like nail-polish remover or fruit)

 

Hi Sheryl,

Forgive me if you are already armed with this information. As a newbie, another forum member posted a link for me to an article about cat diet and the impact of dry food. http://www.catinfo.org/ Even if you already know all this, maybe your husband would be open to reading it. It's great information that totally changed my understanding of the role of dry food in a cat's diet. I was under the misguided impression that a dry food diet was actually preferable! Now I understand why this is not true. I'm in the process of pulling both my cats off the dry stuff (one diabetic and one not). However, I haven't started home testing, so I'm reluctant to go all wet food until I have some idea of his numbers throughout the day. My newbie kit should arrive sometime this week.

 

OMG...I wrote a LONG reply TWICE...and somehow keep losing my work. I'm having internet issues today and keep getting a message that it has to shut down. i'm going to copy and paste into a document every so often now, just in case....SO FRUSTRATING!!!

I seem to have misse some action here over the last few hours...

First let me ask another newbie question. Can someone please translate: DKA, FD & DH? I'm guessing DH is D___ husband. darn, dumb, dear?

OK so DH thinks that cats should just eat the same food every day and that if it changes too frequently they'll get sick or shock their system. This is why he thinks that I should ween them off the dry food and not go cold turkey (CT...new acronym? anyone? beuler...?). I've also been buying new brands and flavors and changing it up for them to see what they prefer and DH doesn't like this either. I might just drop the kitty krack and tell him that they ate it already. He won't notice...kinda like leaving the new shoes in the trunk or getting rid of the boxes before he gets home.

They do love their wet food and i've been making it extra soupy since the trace ketone reading yesterday. I'm giving VERY LITTLE dry now because they are hawking me when i walk in the kitchen and i'm a sucker and can't get their cans open fast enough. They just seem so HUNGRY all the time now. I'm sure when i'm at work during the day they aren't thinking about it and just sleep...although sometimes I wonder. Anyone try a kitty cam? http://www.nydailynews.com/lifestyl..._away_not_many_catnaps_kitty_cam_study_f.html I digress...

Another sidenote: Rad Cat Raw Chicken - I just picked up a container of this from the specialty Cat & Dog store near my office over my lunch break. Has anyone fed this? http://www.radfood.com/

OK, responses to some other questions you guys presented...
Jen, yes that definitely did help and i totally agree with you about hubbies.
I understand that these are all mostly opionions and appreciate that.
Gayle, the tug of war analogy is very helpful.

I'm thinking of continuing to decrease the krack (note: we're down to about 20 morsels) & keep the insulin at 1U for the next couple of days. If still high increase the dose. Thoughts?

i better quit while i'm ahead here before i lose my work again...

 

If you post hit post and someone else has posted while you are typing, it holds onto your post and you have to hit post again. I didn't realize this at first and lost a lot of posts that way

Your hubby isn't right and he isn't wrong. Some cats are more sensitive to diet change than others. Since switching to canned, mine eat several different flavours as they get bored, whereas when on dry they'd eat the same thing meal after meal. Go figure!

I've never heard of the Rad food line...someone more up on nutritional requirements would have to look through the analysis to see if they have the right supplements in the right ratios. Do you have little kids at all? I mention that because that is one of the reasons why we don't do raw, as salmonella can be spread and it is a risk to little kids. Also, my pets wont touch it....but it can be a very healthy way to go if done properly.

Honestly, I do not know if sticking with 1 unit is fine or not. I'd suggest that if you stick with 1 unit that you get your cat off of dry food quicker rather than sooner...ensuring though that Ashley gets enough food.

Jen

 

FD Feline diabetes

DH Dear husband or Damn husband - depending on the situation

DKA Diabetic ketoacidosis

Here is the glossary of terms we use: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=15885

 

Thank you Karen. I haven't tested the ketones yet today and hope to be able to before I go to dinner tonight. That is a good point of whether or not the strip darkened because it was wet. The colors for negative and trace are really not all that different. I will try dipping one in water when i get home.

You mentioned not to decrease the insulin, however I already have from two to one unit (for a period of two to three days she was getting 3 units per her vet). Are you suggesting I go back to two units?

 

Jen, I'm not sure what you mean by quicker rather than sooner.

 

Okay I had to giggle at this one, but you are so right...they just don't notice.

I know with my bunch when we switched from dry to canned they all ate like horses until they figured out that it was going to be around all day. Before they were use to only getting canned in the mornings and at night with dry inbetween. Once they figured out that the new yummy wet food was the norm not a special treat they all dropped off to a normal rate of comsumption...thankfully as I feed 11. (only 1 diabetic).

DH is both right and wrong about the food...I have one civie that can only have certain foods as he is allergic to beef and fish, but I also have several that if I tried to feed them the same flavor everyday would seek to kill me in my sleep. It falls back to that each cat is different.

IMHO I would dump the kitty krack if they both already love the wet, leave my dose where it is at 1u for a couple of days while trying to gather as much data as possible and then if still high start raising the dose slowly. But as with everything it is only a mere suggestion.

Just my 2 cents

Mel

 

I use raw chicken as a ps snack for Ollie; he is a big boy and when I get up in the morn or come home from work, he is not pleased about waiting that 2hrs before shot and then meals. Shadoe is too prissy and prefers her chicken to be steamed.
For the raw, I get trays of skinless, boneless chicken breasts when on sale, then freeze them individually. As needed, I take one out and thaw in the frig. I slice the breast into small strips for Ollie and Apple; I steam some pieces for Shadoe and cut into tiny cubes. No raw is left out for any of the cats; all is hand fed as a ps snack or sometimes for treats after giving meds.
The next time you are making chicken, try cutting off a few slivers to see if Ashley will try some.

You were saying you want to wean off the dry, what is your time line to reach no dry? I think if Ashley already loves the watered down wet foods, there really is no need for the dry and I bet she would not miss it at all. If you want to give something before ps tests, try something else like chicken or some soft healthy treats, with no sugar. Oliver is not one for snacks, but he does love the pill pockets, roast duck and pea allergy flavor are the only ones with no sugar. You could try them in place of the dry pieces.

Keep in mind that the dry food takes a couple days to get out of the system, so the sooner you stop the dry, the sooner you will see Ashley's numbers improve and the increase may not even be needed.

I am glad to hear she likes the watered wet food.

 

1 unit, drop the dry...test test test.
gosh they make it soooo difficult. the ketone test should only be looked at at the 30 second mark...after that it will just grow darker and darker.
i think you know why 1 unit seems reasonable. TRACE ketones is no reason to have a kitty go for long periods of time balancing out. if 1u doesn't show results in 5 cycles by all means go up. mid test #'s are most important now. if however 1u is a good dose and you continue with 2u it could take weeks of trying to figure out what the heck it is. upping the dose continually.

on pzi, like lantus we start with 1u.
standard, traditional and makes one whole ton of sense.

 

I just came home and gave them some pure bites freeze dried chicken instead of the crack. I really want it gone. I bought them various brands of wet food today at the store:
Wellness - Turkey
Evo - Chicken & Turkey
Evo - Venison
Merrick - Grammies Pot Pie
Merrick - Cowboy Cookout

I just fed them some Wellness Turkey soup and Ashley loves it and Dudley doesn't seem to, but sometimes I think he wait's for it to dry up a bit or if he's not starving he waits for Ashley to finish (they have two bowls...maybe he likes the privacy)...he just went back in...stay tuned...
...he's eating Ashley's leftovers...she ate the more watery portion...ANdddd...he's out...i don't think he likes it. Now Ashley went back for more. I'm not sure if i should offer a different can to Dudley.

I did her PMPS and it's 325.

Here's another question I have. So in the morning I feed them and shoot Ashley between 7:30 & 8am. I get home around 6pm and there's no way they'll wait to eat. I try to wait, but feed and shoot Ashley between 6:30 and 7pm. Is this ok? Also, if she eats at 6:15-6:30 how long can I wait to give her the shot?

 

Also, if i just tested her at 6:15, would it be considered +10 or PMPS AM shot at 8am. Note, I have to go out to dinner with in-laws at about 7 and will need to shoot within the next 20 minutes.

 

pzi is a pretty forgiving insulin when it comes to times. go ahead and test before feeding dinner and shoot then.
eventually you may get a better schedule worked out.
looks like you'll either be 1.5 hours early or late.

 

btw, nice improvement in your #'s sheryl. so glad you've decided to ride 1u

 

I hope this works...I'm linking my photo gallery...

I took a picture of the Ketone test. I also did one to myself, and one with water. (W = water, S = me, A = Ashley)
http://felinediabetes.com/gallery2/v/djacks1128/

not sure if i'm reading this wrong. also looks like i have ketones?

gotta leave now...i'll be off-line for a few hours.

 

it appears the water and ashley are fine...and you my dear have ketones!
did you remember that it is at exactly 30 seconds that your true results will show. after that the color changes but it does'nt mean anything.

 

you can wait 20 minutes before shooting. but remember THAT will start the time for any +'s and not the time of your test. +2 will still be 2 hours after the shot.

 

your kitty looks ketone free to me... but you my dear lol!

my lulu and i just joined, but when i check for ketones with him i look for a pink hue at the 15 and 30 second mark. the colors are close and i know for me when i test my anxiety level is higher and i tend to get really confused so keeping the idea of looking for pink helps me. as long as it is tan as it darkens i feel like it's ok.

 

I did not know that it changes after 30 seconds. It's definitely less of a pink tone, so i'm relieved, but still want to keep a close eye on this. Me on the other hand???

I just tested her at +4 and it was 379. Still under 400 so i'm good with that for now.

My other issue now is that I have the Walmart Relion glucometer and EVERY Walmart in my area is out of the test strips. I've been to 4 of them in the last 4 days and no one has them. I was going to buy a whole new meter and strips, but the ones they had left were expensive and they told me that they cannot be returned if opened. I just used my last strip so I won't be able to check her in the morning. :-x . I'm going to try to find another Walmart tomorrow and stock up if i find them. One of them had hardly any test strips at all of any brand...maybe two or three boxes. Weird! Is there some kind of drought on diabetic test strips.

OK, g'nite all.

 

Actually it looks like she might still have trace ketones. It does appear darker than the water strip. BTW, the time is different for ketone strips made by different manufacturers. It looks like your bottle says to read results at 15 seconds, not 30.

Your test is darker in the center and looks more like a reaction you might see if there was blood in the urine.

 

Is there any way to transfer this topic over to the PZI board or would I need to start a new one there?

Thanks.

 

ashely yes, but you have to call me to explain how. i don't like you not testing mid cycle's all pharmacy's and other stores carry strips too. just a thought.

 

actually i can move it for you!

 

DONE! now you can go over and introduce yourself.

 

I looked at the rad site and can't find their ingredient list. Since you have the container, can you post it, so we can at least see what's in it.

Looks like you've mastered home testing and ketone testing. ;-)

Now we just need to figure out the correct dose and the food thing.

Some cats are more sensitive to food changes, (flavors, brands, types). With mine, I've limited their foods to poultry and two brands. They get a daily buffet of the two cans and homemade raw. They free feed and eat what and when they want.

They get supplemented with treats - cooked chicken, purebites, etc.

Doing the kibble count is a good way to wean her off the dry. And if you find you have lots of dry that you want to "get rid of" you can take it to your shelter and feed it to those cats. That way you're not wasting it.

Ketones and insulin go hand in hand and too little insulin can cause a ketone problem. Like was said, that can escalate and then you will have a $$ vet visit to deal with.

Now that you are testing and starting to collect data, we can work on determining the correct for now dose. No worries, you will get this, just takes time to understand.

If you need to talk - give a call. I'm around.

 

Just wanted to stop in and say hi. It looks like you have been getting some great input [and awesome hands-on help from Hillary!!]

My only input right now would be about potentially exploring using u100 needles with the U40 insulin. Info on this can be found in the PZI Sticky. If you feel up to the conversion, it can help get finer and more consistent gradients in dose.

I know my local wal-mart sells reli-on u100 30g 5/16" insulin syringes [31g is idea but 30g is fine too]. Some state prohibit the sale of them without prescription however. If that's the case then they can be bought online.

I'm hoping the food change will help the numbers come down.

 

Sheryl have you tried the walmart in edison on rt 27? Or how about sam's club that is walmart pwned right maybe they sell relion. And if they work like costco you don't have to be a member to use the pharmacy.

Just a thought.