Assistance needed 911--Update Rocky GA

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (Welcome & Main Forum)' started by Catherine Sloan, May 22, 2010.

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  1. Catherine Sloan

    Catherine Sloan New Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    My apologies for piggy backing but have a cat in trouble here. This is not my diabetic cat but another indoor / outdoor cat. I cannot afford to go to the emergency clinic which is of course what I need to do but it is an hour away and its $100 just to walk in the door and sadly, due to many circumstances I don't have time to explain, we simply can't afford it. His name is Rocky, but his pet name from me is Trouble as that is what he always seems to be getting into. He's about 6 years old and neutered long ago. I see no signs of snake bite making me conclude it is either a car injury (not likely since I live a good distance from a road and he does not usually wander that far) or more likely, my neighbors have poisoned him. I believe they have done this twice before. Also a possibility I wonder is if they have an electric fence. I have given him .5 meloxicam, water by syringe, some chicken broth by syringe and some activated charcoal by capsule in case it is a toxin. He is able to walk but just collapses in exhaustion after a few steps. I have some amoxicillan here for me that I am thinking of halfing and putting it in with water to get him antibiotic in case there is infection. His body temperature appears normal but his ears are hot. Please help me if you can... I anxiously await any thoughts you might have. Thank you so much.

    Cat
     
  2. Libby and Lucy

    Libby and Lucy Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Re: How did you get your cats OTJ?

    Catherine, I have asked to have your post moved to the Health forum where it will get more attention. We cannot advise on serious medical issues like this. You're right, ER is where he needs to be. Sorry.
     
  3. Catherine Sloan

    Catherine Sloan New Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    On a secondary note

    Ya'll have formerly known me here as Cat & Mr. Tom. :) Mr. Tom is doing well and his diabetes remains under control. However, the vet just informed me last week that they would have to do an all day study on him and transfer him to human insulin rather than vetsulin because the manufacture doesn't sell it anymore or something along that line. Also learned it was going to be twice as much in cost. I have 7 rescue cats altogether, only one of which is diabetic. Also have a blind elderly chipmunk now who is about 7 years old. Just released one last week. I'm hope I will have not have to get out of the rescue business. I recall the comfort ya'll gave me when the vet first told me and wanted to put Mr. Tom to sleep. He also had two old broken back leg injuries. He's doing amazingly well and terribly spoiled and happy. I have a bond with him like no cat I've ever had before. He is super special.

    Cat
     
  4. Jill & Alex (GA)

    Jill & Alex (GA) Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Re: Assistance needed 911

    moved and giving a bump...
     
  5. Catherine Sloan

    Catherine Sloan New Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Re: Assistance needed 911

    Very much appreciated being moved to the proper place. I was in a bit of a panic trying to remember how to get back on the boards and such. I have been giving Rocky water by syringe and keeping him seperated from other cats in case it is something like leukemia.. haven't had that in my cat family but was the only thing I could think of if not poisoning and with so many cats its hard to keep up with who has what shots when you have 7. Regardless... I'll stay up with him until the wee hours.. take a long nap and then up at the vet first thing in the morning. I suspect I'll have a bad choice to make. :-( It does not help that my pet chipmunk of 7 years died yesterday. My precious Sweetie vibrated when I petted him (almost a purr) and was as clean as any cat, very playful and amazingly smart. I feel like I'm loosing all my friends. sigh... But, I'll be on the boards for awhile again researching the right insulin to switch Mr. Tom to since he needs off vetsulin. Thanks for any help or suggestions.

    Catherine
     
  6. Cheryl and Winnie

    Cheryl and Winnie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Re: On a secondary note

    Cat, I'm sorry your Rocky is doing so poorly. I hope he made it through the night ok and the vet can figure out what is going on and treat him.
    healing wishes being sent.


    Mr. Tom is doing well and his diabetes remains under control. However, the vet just informed me last week that they would have to do an all day study on him and transfer him to human insulin rather than vetsulin because the manufacture doesn't sell it anymore or something along that line.


    One way to save money, since it is tight, is to NOT have your cat at the vets all day to start new insulin.
    Do you hometest? If not, we can help you with that. Please let us know. If your cat is otherwise healthy, there is absolutely no reason for him to be at the vets to start on a new insulin and get a full curve at the vets. He will be stressed at the vets and his BG numbers will be inaccurate. Better for Tom to be tested at home.
    What insulin are they switching him to ? lantus?

    Keep us posted on Rocky and please let us know how we can help you with your insulin change/testing at home.
     
  7. jt and trouble (GA)

    jt and trouble (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Re: Assistance needed 911

    No advice here but offering prayers...
     
  8. Hillary & Maui (GA)

    Hillary & Maui (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Re: Assistance needed 911

    It sounds like you have two major issues going on.

    1) Trouble/Rocky - if you think he was poisoned or is really in distress, then you really need to get him to a vet, so they can examine him properly and advise on how to handle.

    2) Mr. Tom - switching from Vetsulin to Lantus or Levimer (the human insulins) is a really good thing to do. Many of us here use one of the L's and many cats can get into remission as a result of following the protocols for it's use.

    I highly recommend that you go to the Lantus board and read up on the insulin, as it works VERY DIFFERENTLY from Vestulin and essentially you will become a newbie again while you forget what you know about and learn about the L's.

    Here is a link to the board and please read all the "starred" information as it will answer most if not all of your questions. Lantus/levimer are handled differently - no shaking or rolling, keep fridged at ALL times (opened and unopened), no filling the syringe and squirting back into container, etc.

    viewforum.php?f=9

    Not knowing your history, do you home test? Do you have a spreadsheet?

    What kind of food are you using? prescription? dry? canned? raw? combination?

    While the initial cost for the insulin can be pricey, it actually averages out over time to be not so expensive. You may even be able to purchase single pen from a local pharmacy to help get you started.

    Let us know what other questions you have an how we can help.

    Also, you may want to post in the other health board to get more eyes and even the lantus board.
     
  9. Catherine Sloan

    Catherine Sloan New Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Re: Assistance needed 911

    Thank you so much for your responses, prayers and support. The vet had to put Rocky to sleep this morning. I stayed up with him until 5 and took a nap and then to vet. Honestly, I knew when he came in the door and collapsed that there wasn't any hope for him. I've just had too many cats over the years not to recognize the signs. He had a great deal of liver damage and she suspected poison of some sort and said there was nothing I could have done even if I had taken him that instant to the vet. She did do a check for feline leukemia at my request just in case and for the sake of my other 6 cats. I have done little else today besides cry and sleep. She did call me and leave a message that she wished to speak to me about Rocky so I suspect she did an autopsy to clarify cause. She knows I must take into account my other rescue babies.
    My little Trouble maker will be missed. sigh...

    Mr. Tom is a rescue that is probably about 5 or 6 years old with two old broken back leg injuries when I got him. It was too late for amputation but he manages well with steps in the house and in the winter with pain meds. Six months after I got him I discovered he was a diabetic. My original vet, appalled by his high numbers and scarey x-rays wanted to put him to sleep and said giving shots was too much trouble. Well, took me a weekend to realize I wasn't going to give him up so easily. He was on Vetsulin and has managed extremely well on it and down to 1 mg. twice dailey. And I know I will be flogged by everyone on the board here but he simply will not let me test him. Ya'll were even kind enough to send me a test kit, but there is NO touching of those ears and especially not with something sharp! Keep in mind he was in a state park for who knows how long before he came to live with me. Because of his health issues I cannot really hold him and he must be lifted a certain way and he will lean into me and such, but I have difficulty holding him down. Plus he gets very upset very easily, including if someone raises a voice, etc. I keep him tested by the frutosamine testing at the vet ever so often and he has just been doing very well with vetsulin. So much so, that I bought their last bottle today. They said they had had so much good luck with it that they had bought all they could up before there was no more. I wanted time to research what insulin I need to switch to so I can make the best possible choice. And yes, his sugar either hits the roof at the vet or bottoms out.. has gone down to 36 once. I try to get them to get me in as quickly as possible so there is little wait time for him. I also have 100 more insulin needles to use.. so this will buy me some research time. And on the testing, yes I've tried the warm sock and treats and unless some other miracle idea anyone has come up with, I'm afraid this is going to be out of the question. I have to do his insulin in just a few seconds or forget it. As for food, we do Fancy Feast, based on the charts here I found so high protein low carbohydrates.. he does have access to some hard food but he doesn't really want it. So, that is my update for Mr. Tom. I'll be hitting the Lantix board and trying to get educated. THANK you all.

    Cat and Mr. Tom... but missing Rockky
     
  10. Cheryl and Winnie

    Cheryl and Winnie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Rocky GA

    so sorry for the loss of your friend Rocky

    Fly Free Rocky ! wings_cat


    ___________

    re Mr. Tom.
    perhaps if you posted on the FD health forum your location there might be someone near you that can help you with the testing.


    ((( Catherine ))))
     
  11. Emmy & Dude

    Emmy & Dude Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Re: Assistance needed 911

    I'm so sorry that Rocky couldn't be saved - he left knowing he was loved and that's so important. You did your best - my heart goes out to you especially when it's something like poison - so unnecessary. He is free of any pain now and you gave him the gift of that freedom.

    Good luck with Mr. Tom - I'm fortunate that Dude is an easy tester but if Mittsi were the one having to be tested, I fear that I would be covered in scratches and perhaps even shredded. I hope you're able to switch to the Lantus successfully and that Mr. Tom does well on it. You will have a lot of experienced help on the Lantus Board - will be watching for you even though Dude is now on Levemir - the two insulins are similar.

    Emmy & Dude (& MIttsi too)
     
  12. Catherine Sloan

    Catherine Sloan New Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Re: Assistance needed 911

    Perhaps it is just my mood today but I just feel so overwhelmed looking at the Lantus board.. do not even know where to start. I kind of backed away from these boards out of sheer embarassment that I could not test and now I am even more concerned since it seems testing will become even more important! I do not know what I will do now unless I go once a month for frutosamine test but that is so hard on Mr. Tom and he does not travel well at all.

    I am thinking of Rocky and how he is the only cat I ever had that when I drove up he would run to the car and lay down and roll. He loved sitting outside and stayed on my front porch most of the day. He had a house with carpet of course and a chair with a plush cushion. When he wanted food or attention he just jumped through the cat door and wa-laa.. at my feet. There's no way I could sit outside without him being in my lap. And my chipmunk... he lived in the bathroom... two losses in one weekend is difficult. I am anxious to hear what the vet has learned tomorrow, but that won't bring him back. I wish I was computer savy enough to post a picture of him... He was gray striped but I believe part siamese based on his eyes and his brother that were rescued from the same parking lot.

    Mr. Tom has a link with me and when I am upset, HE is upset and you can hide your emotions from these psychic babies. He has been especially quiet today. I have two laying at my feet now.. Nikki is 10 year old, half bob-cat and half domestic actually but rejected by her mom.. snoring very loudly.. might have some weight issues.. :) and on my right is Bobbi.. so named for his bob-tail who was found on the side of the road and friends with all cats and all people. Raven is my solid black girl who basically saved my life and she's in the living room on top of the kitty condo and Samm is in his daddy's recliner. humm.. don't know where Oliver is but if I say I'm going to brush my teeth he'll come running.. do not ask me why. :)

    Thank you all again and I'll be TRYING to figure out which insulin to ask for.. the receptionist mentioned Humelin (or something like that).. but I imagine I can get whatever I ask for as my vet really is awesome and works with me. To be honest, I believe all you diabetic cat moms and dads know more about feline diabetes than even the best vets. Ya'll have been a Godsend here on this forum with support, learning about diet, sending me to pages to learn to give the insulin shots and I honestly do not believe I would have the pleasure of Mr. Tom's company without ya'll. The encouragement I got here was enough to give me the confidence I needed. I no longer am able to go out of town or spend the night away from home but its a small price to pay for the joy of having my boy. Thank you again for your kindness.

    Cat
     
  13. Hillary & Maui (GA)

    Hillary & Maui (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Re: Assistance needed 911

    I am so sorry about Rocky.

    Regarding the other matter of testing, have you ever tried to test his paw pads? That is another alternate location if the ears aren't testable.

    I understand that the lantus board can be overwhelming. However, if you plan to use that insulin, it is important at a minimum that you read the "starred" posts so that you understand how lantus works.

    Here are the posts, I suggest you start with:

    New to group

    LANTUS & LEVEMIR - INFO, PROPER HANDLING, & STORAGE

    INSULIN DEPOT -AKA- STORAGE SHED

    Tight Regulation Protocols

    The other posts, while important, aren't as critical as these.

    In order for the people on that board to properly assist you when you do use lantus or levimer, you will need to be able to home test on a regular basis.

    That being said, try practicing by playing with his paws and see if he allows it, then you can test on them. It works the same way as the ears, but may be easier for you to manage with him.
     
  14. Catherine Sloan

    Catherine Sloan New Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Re: Assistance needed 911

    Thank you Hillary, I will read the posts you have referred me to. Last night I watched a video on how the lantus is done. While Mr. Tom trusts me he does not let me play with his back two legs and I must be careful of even how I pet him because of the breaks in his legs. Another thing that troubles me is that I must give him insulin while he is eatting and distracted. While I know he had some human contact before me, I know he took some abuse because of the way he runs by me with a broom and is scared oe men for sure, even as kind as my husband has been to him. I even saw where you were suppose to hold it in for 10 seconds but hopefully that will not apply because there will definitely be none of that... I've got about 2 seconds to get the job done. I'm thinking the pens will not work but still researching. Also went to a site that has Insulin Products comparison chart and they say they only last 28 days and some oare done 30 minutes before eatting or 15 minutes or right after... Lantus says without regard to meals and that there is no peak.. does sound pretty good, and done once a day is nice perhaps I could use that second time to test.. HA... I sure can't imagine him letting me do that. Still feel panicked about this but I'll be reading. You're right, I'm a newbie again.

    Cat & Mr. Tom
     
  15. Sheila & Beau GA & Jeddie GA

    Sheila & Beau GA & Jeddie GA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Re: Assistance needed 911

    (((Catherine))) I am so sorry about Rocky. Fly free Rocky rb_icon

    About Mr. Tom and switching insulins... how have you been monitoring him while on vetsulin? Any testing at all? Any urine testing?

    While it is best to test before every shot and get spot checks during the day, if you can't then you do what you can. Start with testing his urine several times a day to see what the glucose level in it is and also test it for ketones. And start insulin conservatively. Since you have to make a switch and you can't test, all we can do is tell you it isn't ideal (no guarantees) but there are alternative ways to test.

    I switched Beau from vetsulin to Levemir about a year ago after two years on vetsulin. He has been diet controlled (off insulin) since last September - except a few days at the end of December. He has been very easy to test, although he was feral when I trapped him. My other diabetic, Jeddie, is currently on Levemir. I adopted him on vetsulin, he went off insulin for a few months and is now on lev. He was NOT happy about being tested, but I persisted.

    There may be ways we can get you to learn to test Mr. Tom and by taking it slowly and rewarding him, he will learn to tolerate it.

    I am thinking that if you switch to levemir, start at a low dose (need to know what his blood sugar results have been and what his current dose of vetsulin is before suggesting a starting dose), monitor with urine testing and work on trying to test his ears or paws, then you may be able to safely transition him to a better insulin.

    Ideally, testing twice a day minimum is best, but I would never say if you can't then you can't use levemir or lantus. And I would not refuse to give you support in trying to manage him on one of those insulins. I hang out in the Levemir ISG which I think is not as overwhelming as the lantus one. There are very experienced folks in both ISG's, but I know what you mean about the lantus one being overwhelming. Please do a "site" visit to the lev ISG - maybe it will seem like a place you can get support and help. You would be welcomed there.
     
  16. Marvie and Tugger

    Marvie and Tugger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2009
    Re: Assistance needed 911

    You still want to be sure Tom eats before shooting Lantus or any insulin, this is why the usual procedure is test (then if number is in good range) feed THEN shoot (lots of us do it while kitty eats, some do it a little bit after kitty eats to be sure the food stays down)

    Lantus *does* have a peak... it's usually about the halfway point between shots but it can move around a bit. Some kitties peak at +4 or 5 others are later at +7 or 8 while others are right on target. This is why spot checks are so important. Lantus is not dosed based on the pre-shot number but on the lowest number (nadir) reached during the cycle. Now, ideally Lantus will give a nice flat curve (hold the same range of numbers) through the cycle so this could be what you took to mean no peak... but take a look at some spreadsheets of Lantus users and you'll see that there are definite nadirs.

    The pens *will* work, you don't shoot from the pen, you use a syringe to draw the insulin from the pen. This is why the pens work out to be cheaper in the long run. Proper handling will give you much more than 28 days from the time you open the pen/vial.

    One way you might make the testing easier on Tom and yourself is to start using treats. Whatever low carb treat he thinks is the best thing since Tuna. Lots of us use freeze dried chicken treats, they are actually a dog treat but are all protein and easy for kitties to eat. Most kitties love them so much that many of us refer to the stuff as Kitty Crack or FDCC freeze dried chicken crack ;) Give him a few bites of that after each test and shot and pretty soon you might find him stalking you in hopes that you'll poke his ear so he can have some more FDCC ;) Tugger learned that pretty quickly and would often come to me and paw at me with a pitiful look, which of course made me want to check his BG to be sure he was ok... which meant he got FDCC. It made him willing and even eager for what you would think is an unpleasant experience ;) He still comes and asks me to test, even though he's been OTJ (diet controlled) for weeks now.

    You just have to figure out what trips Mr Tom's trigger like that =) Poor guy, I can't imagine he'd be very trusting of humans but I bet that he'll figure out pretty fast that what you do does make him feel better. The more you are in control of his numbers (testing so you know to feed him when he's getting low and getting the right dose in him) the better he will feel and he'll figure out that food makes him feel better when he's going low and he'll get up and go get food on his own.

    Really. He'll clue in once he starts feeling better and with everything you do to try to make it less scary for him.

    My boy will let me do anything to him, but I had to let him decide to allow the testing before it got easy. The first little while was a struggle but with patience, on HIS part, I learned to sit down on the floor with my testing basket and the treats and wait for him to come to me. When he did, I'd talk in the sweet voice he likes so much and skritch his chin till he melted. Usually he'd be beside me, head looking down my legs towards my feet, butt behind me. I could then reach over him with the arm he was nearest and do some more skritching around his ears and chin. Then I snuck in the warm baby sock with rice and used it to massage the ear (loves this!) then, keeping the sock behind the ear I sneak the (already set up) meter and lancet over with my free hand. Quick stick (you can scoop the blood off the ear with your nail and test from there if you need to) and lots of sweet talking, immediate ear skritches (Tug likes it when I give deep massage around his ears, makes his back leg kick) to distract him while I get the FDCC with the non-skritching hand and give the treat before releasing kitty from his oh so pleasurable massage for OH LOOK, FOOD! ;) So the entire exercise is pleasurable except that quick poke which he hardly notices hidden among all that lovin'.

    You could work up to the poke, take a couple of days of doing something similar, however it will work for you and Tom, do all the steps except the actual poking till you're both good and comfortable with it. Do it as many times a day as you can squeeze in and always make it a happy loving time, after a day or so you should/might be able to sneak in that poke without him really noticing too much.

    I don't know if it'll work but it's somewhere to start =) Maybe my thoughts will spark other thoughts from other folks and you'll find your solution there, who knows. In the meantime, there's urine testing while you figure it out maybe? I know there are some people around who do and might be able to help you figure that out. Paw testing is sometimes an option when ear testing isn't. So there are ways that you can still monitor his BG's =) don't give up! We're all here to try to help so just breathe innnnnnnnnnnnnnn and ouuuuuuuuuuuuuuut ;) Feel better?
     
  17. Catherine Sloan

    Catherine Sloan New Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Re: Assistance needed 911

    Vet said Rocky had FIV... guess all my cats are exposed. Now, also have to research how to insure my other 6 cats health. Also she mentioned the insulin she was thinking of using was ProZinc insulin for Mr. Tom because she's very aware of his issues as far as testing and when I can give shot. So, researching that too.

    Cat & Mr. Tom
     
  18. Hillary & Maui (GA)

    Hillary & Maui (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Sorry about the FIV status. Have your other cats been vaccinated for FIV? I'm sure there are others here who can offer advice on how best to care for everyone and minimize further exposure issues.


    Your vet sounds good, aware of various insulin options and your abilities to test or not test.

    If you go to the main index board, you will see a forum for PZI/Prozinc - it's a good starting place to do research.
     
  19. Sheila & Beau GA & Jeddie GA

    Sheila & Beau GA & Jeddie GA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Catherine, my sister's diabetic cat is a former feral who is FIV+. She had 4 other cats with him when she first had him. He was given about 6 months to live with his health issues, but I think that was 3-4 years ago? Maybe more? His FIV has just entered an activated stage (poor thing) Anyway, none of her other cats have contracted FIV.

    How was he around your other cats? Did they stay apart? Fight? I think (hope) that there was little contact that could cause the disease to be transmitted if they weren't cuddling, fighting, washing each other, sharing dishes when both had dental issues, etc.
     
  20. Catherine Sloan

    Catherine Sloan New Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Sheila, Thank you for your word of encouragement. Rocky was mostly outdoors and I have one other that likes to be outdoors a great deal, Samm. I'm actually concerned about him because he eats a lot but does not gain weight like the others. Plus he eats hard food in between (we have to share the FF :) and supplements that with little critters (which makes mommie VERY unhappy to say the least). And yes, I've already had him tested for thyroid and diabetes. All this came about after a bladder infection... so... All were neutered or spade but that did not stop a few spats. Rocky didn't exactly adhere to the social norms of cats, aka recognizing Samm as head cat or bowing to others, he just ignored all the cat rules. I'm sure you folks know what I'm talking about. :) Vet said Rocky could have had it for years and just not shown any symptoms until the last few days. Bobbi did not get along well with Rocky and his ignoring of the hierarchy but never enough to cause an abscess or anything. Mr. Tom does his own thing and they seem to all understand the rules.. he gets fed and his insulin first.. THEN the rest get food. Mr. Tom requires a certain routine that must be stuck to or else. Mostly the other cats seem to respect him and only one has ever pretended to swat at him... if they do they have ME to contend with and well, I'm actually head cat. Well, I wish. So, I think Mr. Tom is safe as he just ignored Rocky. He doesn't fight with the other cats, BUT, he does groom with Bobbi.. so... that might be a problem. I'd like to have Mr. Tom with me forever, but he's a miracle kitty as it is.. he shouldn't have even been alive and I feel so blessed to have him. But, then I guess probably this group understands more than anyone else could. Thank you for your words, as I'm still a bit out of sorts.

    Cat & Mr. Tom
     
  21. Mary & Stormy Blue

    Mary & Stormy Blue Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    I am very sorry for your loss of Rocky.

    ~M
     
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