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  1. Beeba's Dad

    Beeba's Dad Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2010
    Hello,
    I recently found out my pet,Beeba, was a diabetic. Here is a brief history of how it transpired. She has always had bad teeth, she was a stray that I rescued from our wharehouse. During the last dental she had, where several teeth were extracted, she had a hard time bouncing back. We had to take her back to get some fluids and a shot, I'm not sure what type. In the last few months she develped an alergy where she would sneeze quite a bit. When we took her back to the vet she gave her a cortizone shot. Over the course of 4-5 months she got another shot. Recently she began to lick her bum quite a bit, there was more urine in the litterboxes and we noticed that she appeared to be loosing weight. When we took her to the vet we got the diagnosis of Diabetes. Looking back now those were the classic signs of the disease. I am not sure if she was a borderline diabetic and the corticosteroids pushed her over the edge or what, right now I am not going to worry about that, I just want to concentrate on getting her back on a healthy track.
    In the last week I have been reading everything I can on the subject and haveee found several common threads. No matter what type of dry food you feed they are all by their nature high in carbs and a cat's digestive tract is relatively short and not designed to process complex carbs, it is by nature designed to digest protien. To my way of understanding this is why a high protien diet is one element of the solution that we , as pet owners can control. Choosing the proper wet food has been pretty daunting, but after going to my local petfood store and reading the labels along with the information I have read for now I have settled on Wellness brand food. Three days ago I began to introduce the new food to her along with her old food and to my delight she really liked it. Today is her first day at the vet getting a clucose curve established. When she went a week ago her glucose was 475, this morning it was 395. I am hoping that the change in food is already having a positive effect. I know we will have to monitor her blood glucose as we introduce more of the wet food to her diet and discussed this with my vet. She asked if I would be interested in home-monitoring and I jumped at the chance. Anything that can decrease the stress to my cat I am all for it. That is when she told me about the Alpha Trak blood glucose monitor, it is designed specifically for pets. Right now I plan on getting one and working with it to work to control Beeba's blood glucose. It is the least I can do for her
     
  2. Blue

    Blue Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    First, welcome to the site.

    You can save alot of money by just picking up a human BG meter at the pharmacy; you don't need the expensive one from the vet. Many people use the Relion meter as the strips are quite cheap when compared to other meters. Several others use the OneTouch varieties as well as Precision and the main one I use, Bayer Contour. For the purpose, you don't need the costly vet meter.

    Binky's list has several foods that you can try. here are some links for you

    Binky’s Food Lists
    Feeding Your Cat: Know The Basics of Feline Nutrition
    Petsafe 5-meal Auto Feeder
     
  3. tuckers mom

    tuckers mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Wow, you're really a wonderful advocate for Beeba, she's got an amazing dad :)

    You can use the alpha track if you feel comfortable with that, but as mentioned above, you can save money using regular human glucometers.

    The need for insulin will decrease as you switch to canned only, so it's good that you'll be hometesting.

    My Bean was a steroid induced FD, she's off insulin now that the steroids and diet change have occured. Others, like my Tucker will remain on insulin and that's okay too. I mention this simply because not all cats can be diet controlled, although there are many that can.

    Going forward if her allergy starts up again, have you thought about how you will treat that?
     
  4. Mauravdl

    Mauravdl New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2010
    Alex was seeing an animal allergy specialist because he has some sort of atopic allergy (environmental inhalant of some sort, most likely) and he was put on something called Atopica which is a cyclosporine and which is used in diabetic cats to control allergies since they can't have steroids. You might ask about that if Beeba's allergies act up again.
     
  5. Just-As-Appy

    Just-As-Appy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    While there are several people on here who use the AlphaTrack, I think that having another backup is important. As I understand it, the test strips can only be obtained from the vet for the AlphaTrack. Strips for the Relion (for example) can be had from Walmart (US) 24/7. This is important if you have a hypo event - you may need to test as often as every half hour for several hours. I use the OneTouch Ultra and strips are available at nearly any pharmacy. The meter was free at Pharmasave with the purchase of 100 strips (about $85). I've since found them least expensive at Costco (in Canada) at $73.
     
  6. Beeba's Dad

    Beeba's Dad Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2010
    Thanks for all your replys.
    After the first day at the vet I was able to bring Beeba home. They did not have anybody that could monitor her all night. They taught me how to give insulin injections and I gave her first after she ate tonight and it went pretty well. I have to give her another in the morning after she eats and bring her back for another day of monitoring. Her last B/G reading was 365. Since it was a technician that I saw tonight and not my vet, I will find out tomorrow what type of device they actually use to determine her B/G reading with. For now she is resting comfortably in familiar surroundings.
     
  7. SaraJaye

    SaraJaye Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2010
    The vet techs are a lot more experienced with administering insulin so it's good that you got your lesson from the tech. What insulin did they give you, and how many units are you giving?
     
  8. Beeba's Dad

    Beeba's Dad Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2010
    Right now the vet has started her off on 2.5 units and we are using Lantus as the insulin type. The vet is going with the cautious approach, which is fine with me. She has to go back to the vet for monitoring today and tomorrow. When that is done we will have her glucose curve established and can proceed from there.
     
  9. Venita

    Venita Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Hello most awesome Dad!! Beeba is a most lucky girl to have you as her guardian.

    I agree with others that the animal-calibrated meter isn't necessary, but if that is what you are comfortable with and can afford, great. It's the testing that's important. Please do keep a stock of strips on hand. Some Internet pet sites such as EntirelyPets.com also sell the strips. It's just that many of us feel comfortable with a system that uses strips that are a fraction of the cost.

    Because Beeba is likely a steroid-induced diabetic, there is a good chance she will go into remission. For her, frequent home-testing is especially important.

    2.5U is an high starting dose for Lantus. Many here start with 1U. A discussion of and links to protocols for Lantus dosing is here. You might want to take a look at that and print it off and discuss it with your vet.

    Wellness is a good premium food. You can find other low-carb foods on Janet and Binky's list. Folks here generally recommend food under 10% calories from carbs, although my cats eat lower.

    Scritches to Beeba!!
     
  10. Blue

    Blue Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
  11. Beeba's Dad

    Beeba's Dad Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2010
    The reason I figured 2.5 units was cautious because on a website dealing with feline diabetes, I am not sure which one at the moment, they had a table which showed that for a B/G level near 400 they suggested 4 units. I will have to look back and see if the chart was insulin specefic and if so which type they were using. I will also read the Lantus guide on the link provided to me, many thanks. As for the test meter I found out the vet uses an in house machine and not a hand held unit. I am going to have another discussion about the home testing meter when I pick up Beeba this evening. The dose I gave her last night of 2.5 units did not seem to adversly affect her, she had a good restfull night and ate well this morning and seemed very active. As soon as I resolve the issue with the home monitor I will get one for sure, most likely tomorrow. I would like to put her picture up as my avatar but every picture I have seems to be to large of a file size. Is there any trick to putting a picture in your avatar?
     
  12. Hope + (((Baby)))GA

    Hope + (((Baby)))GA Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    There is absolutely no chart that can give you a safe dose approach. A little 5lb cat may need more insulin than a 17lb cat. As for getting results from the vet as far as a curve goes.....that works for dogs, not cats. Hope shows no stress at all at the vet, she looks fine and comfy but she throws a higher number than at home and she is off insulin. Mishka, she shows it outwardly and you get exactly what her number is at the vet but it is lower at home also because of stress.

    Doing a curve at a vet office is IMHO useless. You would do better and also save money to buy a meter and test at home. Most vet places don't even test that often and I would ask them where they plan to get the blood from. If she is steroid induced, you NEED to test at home. The body does have a store of glucose to dump if a cat goes too low but.....once that store is depleted you end up with a hypo.

    Mishka is one cat that is "well controlled for the day" but don't ever count on it being somewhere in the same range every day. She has always been like this even when she was on Humulin U and now PZI. What works for one may not work for another.

    Save Beeba from vet stress, save yourself money, buy a meter and run a curve at home, and never give an insulin shot without testing first.
     
  13. Jen & Squeak

    Jen & Squeak Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    The dosing chart you saw was more than likely from a site called Your Diabetic Cat or YDC. The sliding chart was developed for use with a very strict protocol and was not designed for use with lantus. In fact, it is dangerous to use with lantus.

    I know it is very difficult to get conflicting advice, I sympathize and have been in your shoes. But starting at 1 unit really is a safer way to go. If 2.5 is too high it won't necessarily be readily apparent; you can end up overdosing your cat but his system may cover through a process called somogi effect...until his body can no longer protect itself and he becomes hypoglycemic. By starting at 1 and working your way up methodically you have a better chance of finding the right dose.
     
  14. tuckers mom

    tuckers mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    I think there is a website that had a sliding scale (chart) for PZI insulins, but even if I were using a PZI insulin I wouldn't follow the chart until I gathered my own data. ECID-every cat is different, and yours may respond differently to insulin than my cats.

    I understand that your vet started you on that dose and it's hard to listen to folks on the internet instead of your trusted vet, but those of us on this site deal with feline diabetes day in and day out. Vets are general practicioners that need to know a lot about many different species and breeds. They can't spend the countless hours learning about FD that many of us here do.

    If it were my cat I'd start on 1 unit or even 1/2U and stick with that dose for a while, gather my information (the BGs during the cycle) and find the correct dose by moving up in small increments as warranted.
     
  15. Beeba's Dad

    Beeba's Dad Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2010
    Thanks again for all the information. In one week it has been a very steep learning curve and yes there is lots of conflicting information out there but there seems to be a few common threads.
    1. Diet plays a crucial role in cause and control.
    2. Cortizone can play a role in the disease.
    3.No one cares more about your cat than you and you need to take charge.
    4. Every cat is different which makes every case as difficult.
    5. Each type of insulin acts different for each cat, which also leads to no set solution.
    5. Home monitoring is cucial no matter which meter you use. It will give you a more reliable, real world reading than one done on a stressed cat at the vet's office.
    Am I getting close??
     
  16. MommaOfMuse

    MommaOfMuse Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Yep it sounds like you have hit just about all the high points.

    Mel, Max & The Fur Gang
     
  17. Hope + (((Baby)))GA

    Hope + (((Baby)))GA Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    Obesity can also play a role. The two main ones to always remember are #3 and #6. Your list is excellent :thumbup Edited to make it #6 because you had two #5's :roll:
     
  18. Jen & Squeak

    Jen & Squeak Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    I would say that for your number 5, that there are some characteristics unique to each insulin that hold true for the vast majority of cats. For example, in the vast vast vast majority of cats, you cannot do with lantus what you might be able to do with the humulins and PZI.
     
  19. Beeba's Dad

    Beeba's Dad Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2010
    I have to admit my heart sunk a little when I asked the pharmacist what type of insulin and she replied "Lantus". I am going to ask the vet tonight why this type. I have a feeling she will say, "Because it is a long acting type". I am going to bring up the PZI type to her because from what I had read it seemed to be the logical choice. I am also going to ask her about how long and how many cats she has experience with. For now as far as the home testing unit goes, I bought the Freestyle and they agreed to do a side-by-side comparison with their unit on tomorrow's samples so I can see how they compare.
     
  20. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    The FDA allows home glucose test meters to be as much as 20% different from true readings.

    What this means:
    50 can really be from 40 to 60 <- more risk for hypoglycemia down here!
    100 can really be from 80 to 120
    150 can really be from 120 to 180
    200 can really be from 160 to 240
    250 can really be from 200 to 300

    Also, blood from the capillary vs blood from a vein will be different. When comparing your meter to what the vet is using, the blood must come from the same location, ideally tested by both devices at about the same time.
     
  21. tuckers mom

    tuckers mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Lantus is a nice gentle insulin. I haven't used it, we currently use Levemir, before that we used PZI for a long time, before that Humulin N.

    Is there a reason that you don't feel comfortable with Lantus? If you can do the 12/12 schedule or very close to it, I think you may like it. I chose Levemir simply because my cats Tucker and Misty(GA) were long time insulin dependent cats.
     
  22. Blue

    Blue Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    I think you will be very pleased with Lantus as it's a longer lasting insulin, and there is no problem with Beeba running out of insulin and getting rising numbers near the end of cycles as with the others and PZI is a shorter lasting insulin too I had thought.

    I have used Lantus and Levemir, but prefer Levemir for my two because of their high doses.

    I am wondering also why you were disappointed in the choice of Lantus.
     
  23. Beeba's Dad

    Beeba's Dad Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2010
    The reason I was initially disappointed with the choice of Lantus was that most of the literature I had read was touting PZI. She seems to be responding well so far and things look favorable.
    The vet is going to use my meter today for side by side testing of their unit. I understand that blood from the vein might yield different results but I need to start somewhere. Yes Beeba is on a 12/12 schedule for now.
     
  24. Venita

    Venita Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    The one thing I would add to your very excellent list is urine testing for ketones, especially in a newly diagnosed cat or one with a history of ketones. See this Diabetes in Pets Wiki article on ketoacidosis.

    You can but urine testing sticks at a pharmacy.
     
  25. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    As long as both your meter and their unit are testing the same source blood, the comparison will be OK. Keep in mind the table in the previous post. If they use a lab machine to analyze glucose, depending on the level, your meter could look very different. It'll help to print out that table for reference, so you don't get told "it reads 30 points low" because that will only be true at that level of blood glucose, not for the entire range of values you might get when home testing. Typically, that + or - 20% will not change what you do for the cat at that time.
     
  26. Beeba's Dad

    Beeba's Dad Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2010
    I got the comparison of the In House glucometer vs the Freestyle Freedom Lite, which is the unit I initially bought. The numbers were generated from the same sample of blood. It looks like my vet followed the Lantus Protocol from Tilly's Diabetes Homepage. +3hrs, +6hrs and +9hrs. The results are below

    Time / In House / Freestyle
    +3hrs / 153 / 80
    +6hrs / 157 / 99
    +9hrs / 162 / 91

    Quite the disparity from the two but it gives me a workable range. I think I am still going to purchase the Alpha Track so I can compare them both, you usually get enough blood to do both from one lancet prick. I am going to inquire also, what type of In House unit they have. I was just glad to get Beeba home.
     
  27. Beeba's Dad

    Beeba's Dad Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2010
    I did a spot check of Beeba's BG today at 11:00 before her noon feeding and after several tries I got enough blood for a reading, it read 64. Which based on the comparison of the vet's machine would be around 120-130. She is still on about a 60/40 diet, wet/dry. I did not want to change to quickly until I got an idea what her numbers would be, but things are looking favorable for now.
     
  28. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    64 is a good number. We generally tell newbies not to shoot under 200. Wonder what your number will be at shot time.
     
  29. Beeba's Dad

    Beeba's Dad Member

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    Dec 21, 2010
    I did another spot check of Beeba's BG# today at 2:30 and it was 54 on my meter which should correlate to about 110/120 on the vet's Glucometer. I plan on doing a curve on Thursday or Friday depending on my work schedule, which brings me to this question. On my job I work some 12 hour days and some can even be 16 hr shifts. If I have to work 16 hrs and can't get someone to give her insulin at the 12 hr mark, what is the best way to deal with it? I have also tried to attach a picture of her. I hope it goes through.
     

    Attached Files:

  30. Hope + (((Baby)))GA

    Hope + (((Baby)))GA Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    Beeba is gorgeous!
     
  31. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    She is gorgeous but maybe with an attitude? That look on her face is priceless.

    I would ask your time question on the Lantus forum: viewforum.php?f=9 They all use your insulin and can help with your scheduling issues. Post with NEWBIE in your subject line and give them all your recent blood glucose test results.

    But you may not ever have to worry about it. You are getting some great values. Are you feeding all wet lo carb? It looks like maybe you did the switch on the 21st so you may still see some lowering values from the diet.
     
  32. Beeba's Dad

    Beeba's Dad Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2010
    You pretty much got it right with the attitude observation. I did not think it was that obvious. She is quite the scamp. One of her favorite activities is bedeveling her sister, Ashley and my other cat, Gigi. All of them resues from my wharehouse, many years ago. The diet I am using is as I said a 50/50 mixture of her old dry food, which was Iams hairball control. And their new wet food which is Wellness brand Chicken flavor. I have been very fortunate that they all have been taking well to the new food. Thanks so much for the tip about dosing. I will look into it.
     
  33. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    If you can get them completely off the dry, you may not need to use insulin. Her numbers are pretty good without insulin and that little bit of dry may just be enough carbs to keep her out of completely normal numbers. Be worth a try! If they are all taking to it, and no one is throwing up, just toss the dry.
     
  34. Beeba's Dad

    Beeba's Dad Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2010
    I do plan on getting them off the dry food. I thought it would be good to get a fix on what her numbers were with what I was feeding her and the dose I was giving, then to adjust from there. I still think this was triggered by the cortione shots she got. In a strange way this could be what helps her and my other cats get on a healthier diet in the long run.
     
  35. MommaOfMuse

    MommaOfMuse Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    As the proud mom to 10 kitties, I know that once I had a diabetic in the house and switched everyone to canned food, even my civies (non-diabetics) reaped the benefits of the diet change. I now have 10 of the sleekest, shinest cats around. My one guy with bad allergies had them completely disappear, another one of mine that was a constant puker quit. And my diabetic is in remission and has been off insulin for over a month.

    I personally know that now that I have seen what a purely wet diet does for cats there will never be another bag of dry food in this house. As the most remarkable looking cats in my house are the two kittens that have never touched a single kibble. They are absolutely stunning to look at, and so frisky, even more so than normal kitten frisky. It now kills me to see someone buying dry cat food at the store, and about half the time, I try to talk the person out of it.

    Mel, Max & The Fur Gang
     
  36. Beeba's Dad

    Beeba's Dad Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2010
    I know I have not posted anything for a few days. I have been trying to get a routine going and transition to all wet food. I have seen an improvement in my non-diabetic kitties fur as mentioned above. I was able to do a curve yesterday and my results are below. The BG# is adjusted from what I got, to what my vet was getting on her machine.

    Time/ BG#
    7:15 100 Pre-Shot
    10:30 87
    14:30 92
    18:30 109

    I am currently giving Beeba a "skinny" 2.5 units. I think with my transition to all wet and her numbers, I should reduce to 2 units and do another curve in a couple days when my job allows. I will continue to do spot checks until then.
     
  37. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Whoa! Are these the numbers you are getting on your meter at home? Or have you adjusted them up to reflect what you think might be the alpah track numbers?
    There is less variation at the lower numbers than the high.

    And we strongly urge newbies NOT to shoot any insulin under 200. Lantus users do shoot at those numbers after they have data and know how the shed works in their kitties (viewtopic.php?f=9&t=150), but you have very little data. You are giving quite a bit of insulin at very low numbers.

    I'll see if I can get some Lantus users over to offer some ideas for you. And please set up a spreadsheet so people can see what is going on with your numbers, at a glance. (If you need help, just ask)Setting up a spreadsheet

    Please do some testing today to make sure she does not go too low.
     
  38. Beeba's Dad

    Beeba's Dad Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2010
    I am adjusting my numbers based on what my vet got with her glucometer versus what she got from the same blood sample with mine. It was a pretty consistant difference and she was in the 150-160 range when my vet tested her. I'm not sure what degree of difference there will be at the 100-110 range. What is considered normal BG#'s for a cat? I know every cat is different. So far her behavior has been fine, she is acting like her old self again and is not urinating nearly what she had been. I will look into setting up a spreadsheet. Thanks.
     
  39. Just-As-Appy

    Just-As-Appy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    I tested my non-diabetic cats several times and they have been 4.5 (81) if that helps.
     
  40. MommaOfMuse

    MommaOfMuse Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Normal for a non-diabetic cat is anywhere between 40 & 120, however, my civies tend to run right around the 50s and Max who is diet controlled is normally in the mid-60s.

    You can take a look at his spreadsheet it is in my signature, so see about what an OTJ diabetic's numbers look like. Hope it helps.

    Mel, Max & The Fur Gang.
     
  41. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Still confused. What are the numbers you got on your curve with your meter? Have you gotten any numbers today?

    Here is a chart. Every cat is different, however. And the tightly regulated would be a cat whose owner has lots of data and is consistently testing and probably giving a small dose of insulin.

    Treated but not regulated [often above 300 (16.7) and rarely near 100 (5.6), poor clinical signs]
    Regulated [generally below 300 (16.7) with glucose nadir near 100 (5.6), good clinical signs, no hypoglycemia]
    Well regulated [generally below 200-250 (11.1-13.9) and often near 100 (5.6), no hypoglycemia]
    Tightly regulated [generally below 150 (8.3) and usually in the 60-120 (3.3-6.7) range, no hypoglycemia, still receiving insulin]
    Normalized [60-120 (3.3-6.7) except perhaps directly after meals -- usually not receiving insulin]
     
  42. Beeba's Dad

    Beeba's Dad Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2010
    I am using the Freestyle Lite meter. As I said in one of my posts above I had the vet do a side-by-side test with the results below.

    Vet meter Freestyle lite
    153 80
    157 99
    162 91
    From these results I resoned that the average disparity between the two averaged 67 points. I therefore add 67 points to the reading I get on my Freestyle lite to get the numbers I stated in my above post. So you can subtract 67 from each reading to arrive at what I got.
    33
    20
    25
    42

    I don't know what others typically get with a Freestyle lite compared to what there vet gets. I felt that having a side-by-side test would give me most accurate comparison to the vet's machine. Since the Vet's machine is usually considered the "Gold Standard" and I do not have the Alpha Track..yet.
     
  43. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    I am still nervous about 2.5 units with either set of numbers. They are low numbers to shoot one unit; you are shooting more than twice that.

    if you read the Lantus shed info, you know that the shed takes a while to fill. So, what can happen is that, suddenly, the shed is full and your cat reacts to the larger dose of insulin, and you have a hypo.

    It's your cat and they all react differently. Our advice is to first, do no harm. So we start low and go slow.
     
  44. Georgia and Simon (GA)

    Georgia and Simon (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2010
    Welcome to FDMB. My cat, Simon, was diagnosed in November and my vet started him on 4 units of Lantus based on his bg and his weight. He was registering off the meter so he was higher than 500 at the vet. Luckily I found this site about 2 weeks after I started giving Simon his insulin. The first time I tested Simon he was in the 40's (and this was 12 hours after his insulin was given to him!). If I had not home tested, I would have gone ahead and given him another 4 units of Lantus and then gone to bed. I'm not sure Simon would have made it through the night because I'm sure his bg would have dropped dangerously low after giving him anothert 4 units (as prescribed by the vet). Based on advice and input from everyone on the Lantus board, I immediately reduced Simon's dose to 1 unit. If you look on Simon's spreadsheet, you can see how great he has been doing and I am now only giving him a skinny .25. And this has all happened in about 6 weeks time. Of course, I think changing his diet to all low carb, canned food has also helped. Long story short, it makes me a little nervous for you to give him 2.5 units based on my own personal experience. I am not an expert, but there are some great people on this site that can offer you incredible advice. I even switched vets because my vet continued to tell me that Simon needed a bigger dose, that Hill's WD food was the best for him, and she was not enthusiastic about me home testing. I'm glad your vet is a believer in home testing! Good luck with everything and it sounds like you are an incredible dad to Beeba (she is beautiful!).
     
  45. Beeba's Dad

    Beeba's Dad Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2010
    O.K., here are my concerns. How long does it typically take for the shed to fill? Also what outward signs, if any, are there of the shed filling? If I do decide to taper back, at what rate would be safe? If this whole diabetic episode was triggered by the cortizone shots she had prior to this, how quickly could she be weaned from insulin entirely? I am greatful for any and all information, she has greatly improved from when first diagnosed and I do not want to jepordize her recovery. I was not able to contact my vet after doing my curve the other day because they were closed. I was a day late in doing the curve because of the hours of my job. I will call my vet first thing Monday, they are expecting my call and I will also see what she says. My vet has been pretty good through this all and has endured my many questions. Sometimes I think she will cringe when I walk in with my notepad of questions, but she has been very understanding through it all. I would like to thank everyone on the board for their support, it has helped me greatly.
     
  46. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    I think it would be a good idea to go over to the Lantus forum. They all use your insulin and hopefully can help answer your questions. http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewforum.php?f=9. The fast answer is that every cat is different. I would suggest that you check out the spreadsheets of the posters over there. You can see how their cats react. They all have their spreadsheets attached to their posts.

    Start a new topic, identify yourself as a newbie, tell them your latest numbers and your dose.
     
  47. Beeba's Dad

    Beeba's Dad Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2010
    I checked in at the Lantus forum and there are plenty of nice folks there. The good news is that I talked to my vet and she agreed to reduce her dose to 2 units. I would have liked to lower it to 1 1/2, but my vet would like to go slow on decreasing the dosage to avoid any problems. I will of course keep an eye on Beeba's BG#'s to make sure things go correctly. I am lucky to have my sister to help me with her since I had to work a double shift today. As for Beeba she seems fine, after greeting me tonight she came bounding up the stairs in her usual bouyant manner. I will monitor closely but things seem good for now.
     
  48. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Glad you are posting over on Lantus, and that you are keeping a close eye on her numbers. What a great Dad she has!
     
  49. Beeba's Dad

    Beeba's Dad Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2010
    I did another curve on Beeba and the results are below.

    7:15 91
    10:45 91
    14:45 101
    18:20 105
    The totals are adjusted for the difference between my meter and the Vet's meter. I am going to take dose down another step. She seems to be in a very tight desireable range and acting like her old self. She is now totally on wet food, Wellness Chicken. I will keep my fingers crossed and see how things progress.
     
  50. SaraJaye

    SaraJaye Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2010
    You guys are making amazing progress...
     
  51. Beeba's Dad

    Beeba's Dad Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2010
    I know, it is amazing to me how she has progressed. I believe a couple of things. We caught it very early and with the help of everyone on the board here we can get her off the juice in a safe manner. My vet has worked well with me, enduring my countless questions during the early few days as well. I also still believe she was "tipped" into this by the cortizone shots she got prior to this.
     
  52. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Not to be a broken record, but I am still concerned if you are giving 2 units with these numbers. Which are preshot numbers? We urge newbies not to shoot under 200 because your kitty is just adjusting to wet food and insulin that builds up a shed. I hope you are getting tests in at least at preshots and nadir and watching carefully.

    Can we help you set up a spreadsheet? It is difficult for people to see what is happening with such a long thread and so few numbers.
     
  53. Beeba's Dad

    Beeba's Dad Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2010
    Yes, I am at 2 units right now but I will be contacting the vet tomorrow morning about reducing. She is getting her shots at about 7:30 am/pm. How long does it take for this "shed" to build up? She has been acting as normal as ever for the last 2 weeks. Eating well, no excessive urination and her fur looks great, and she is as playful as ever. I also know she has probably gone from a low of 11.2 lbs back to around 13lbs. I am not able to test her extensively enough because of the hours of my job to do a spreadsheet. I do spot checks about every other day and I never see a swing in her numbers great enough to be alarming, usually no more than around 30 points. Ever since the third day of her curve at the vet she has never gone over 165. Is she an example of a spontanious remission that was driven into a diabetic state by the steroids in the cortizone?
     
  54. Jen & Squeak

    Jen & Squeak Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    why are you so reluctant to lower her dose considering those low numbers ? It makes no sense to me that you continue to give her 2 units, shed or no shed.
     
  55. Sienne and Gabby (GA)

    Sienne and Gabby (GA) Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    If I'm understanding your numbers, you're adjusting your Freestyle LIte to compensate for the difference between your meter and the vet's meter. If you take a look at the 2 charta in the tight regulation protocol I'm linking, you'll notice there are different cut offs for when a cat earns a dose reduction. On a human glucometer, in a newly diagnosed cat, the cut off is below 50. On an AlphaTrack or meter calibrated for feline blood, the cut off is 80. With many meters, there is not a consistent difference between the numbers throughout the range so it's best to not to try to correct the numbers by a fixed amount. Rather, use the below 50 on your Freestyle as your point for when Beeba earns a reduction.

    It takes 5 - 7 days for a cat that's not been on Lantus to build a shed. For a dose change, it can take 1 - 2 cycles for the shed to catch up to the dose change.

    Beeba is in good numbers from what you're reporting. We recommend that at the bare minimum, get pre-shot tests and one test per cycle to insure that your cat doesn't drop into low numbers and experience a hypoglycemic incident. Testing every other day is putting Beeba at significant risk. Let me put this in a different context. If this were a child, would you test his or her blood glucose level every other day? I suspect that your pediatrician would encourage you to test your child before every meal and probably at bedtime, if not more often. I am concerned that Beeba is dropping lower than you are seeing.

    Generally, we suggest to people who cannot test frequently, that they drop their cat's dose. It's bets to err on the side of safety than to have to deal with a hypoglycemic episode.
     
  56. Beeba's Dad

    Beeba's Dad Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2010
    Belive me, I want to drop her dose and have cut her back to 1 1/2 just yesterday. My dilema is this. If I cut her back to quick,won't that put her at risk of her emptying her shed and put me back at square one?
     
  57. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    The shed empties somewhat slowly; thats why you may need a a number of cycles to see what happens (2 cycles per day). If you changed her in the morning yesterday, tonight's pre-shot test would show the results of 3 cycles at the lower dose. If you changed her in the evening yesterday, tonight's pre-shot test would show the results of 2 cycles at the lower dose. If you are/were able to get a mid-cycle around +6, that will let you get an idea of how low she is going. If it doesn't totally muck up your life, setting an alarm and getting the +6 in the middle of the night can be done if daytime doesn't work. Review the sticky on Lantus dosing and see how the number of cycles plus her numbers compare to the dose adjustment criteria.
     
  58. Jen & Squeak

    Jen & Squeak Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    let me put it this way....which is more serious...'depleting' her shed and having higher numbers or causing brain damage? this is why people have been questioning you,and why I've spoken so plainly. For some reason you are more worried about the possibility that she goes a bit higher than the possibility of irreparable damage.
     
  59. SaraJaye

    SaraJaye Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2010
    Cutting it from 2 units to 1.5 units isn't a huge reduction. Continue to be diligent in doing those daily curves to make sure you could catch anything going towards hypo numbers... it's quite possible that the pancreas is healing itself and, along with a proper diet, Beeba could be regulating herself more and more - if this is happening, less and less insulin will be needed. So yes, you're right to not want to slash the dose by a huge amount. 2 units to 1.5 is just right. Sorry to repeat myself but PLEASE keep testing blood levels often.
     
  60. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Can you please start a new thread? This one is getting too long.

    Agree with everyone that a dose decrease is probably in order. Please keep us advised and get some nadir numbers.

    If you want help with your spreadsheet, just pm me. I can set it up for you. Both you and we need one to see what is happening - how the insulin is working and what patterns you are seeing. It will also be a great tool to share with your vet.
     
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