? BG 81, should I be worried tonight?

Discussion in 'Caninsulin / Vetsulin and N / NPH' started by mary hornbeck, Dec 17, 2017.

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  1. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    hi everyone,
    Marmalades BG was 81 tonight at 10, see SS. I gave him 1/2 can of food will that lower his BG over night? Will that small portion of food (1/2 can);raise his BG just a little by morning?
     
  2. donnalea

    donnalea Member

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    Could you stay up and test her again in a while? I'm wondering know low he might go tonight. It looks like he gets his Nader early and he is not near going hypo. I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't have a bounce tomorrow since he is at a new low. Don't be surprised if his BG shoots up. If it does, I would check on the board before changing his dose. The food will not lower his BG. Hopefully, someone with more experience will come by.
     
  3. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    I will definately not change his dose without checking on the forum first
     
  4. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Food raises bg, not lowers it. The food will wear off by morning and the numbers will rise by morning as the insulin wears off.
     
  5. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    Hi janet, being that marmalade had a bounce this morning, should I stay at 2 units for now? If not when should I make this change, PMPS?
     
  6. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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  7. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I also suggest you remove the red 911 icon. You've had feedback and when we see it, alarm bells ring! ;)
     
  8. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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  9. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Not at all! It takes time to be comfortable with all this. :) Please take down the scary 911. ;)
     
  10. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    Hi janet, I hope unhad a good day. Can u please check out marmalades SS because I was working all day and couldn’t get a BG until 3:45 today, he was Hungary so I,put down some food, hopefully I didn’t mess up no food before the 2 hour rule with the PMPS. I followed your instructions and gave him 2 units
     
  11. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    Hi janet can u please look st marmalades SS as I have posted his PMPS BG level, I was just wondering if I should increase to 2.5?, he’s highest yet
     
  12. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    No I would not give 2.5.
     
  13. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    I didn’t, I stuck with the 2. I feel so defeated when I see a number like that, it gets me leaving feeling disgusted with this whole process, does it ever get better
     
  14. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    I am hoping that he will get lower as he stays on 2 units as long as it takes to even him out in terms of going from AMPS to PMPS. I know that there is no perfect number but I just want a little consistency. I looked st your spreadsheet, I want mine to look like that
     
  15. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    Good news everyone marmalade BG number tonight was 81 per SS, now what for amps?
     
  16. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    It will depend on what his BG is tomorrow AM. You had a big drop from PS to mid cycle last night and tonight with the 2 u dose. Many cats run lower at night and Marmalade seems to be one of them for now - they like to switch it up sometimes.

    Vetsulin tends to give a large difference in BG from PS to nadir so it’s wise to keep dosing on the conservative side. If you can get some mid cycle tests tomorrow during the day they’ll let us know how big the drop is in the daytime. That will be factored into dosing decisions going forward.
     
  17. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    K, I don’t have work tomorrow so I plan on testing very often
     
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  18. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    Should I give him some karo or is it not necessary as his numbers went up last night after the 81 BG.

    Should I give him some dehydrated chicken to bring him up a little bit?
     
  19. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    What testing intervals do us suggest starting at 6a when he eats?
     
  20. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    He gets food at 6am so when should I post his BG to accommodate for the AMPS doseage?
     
  21. donnalea

    donnalea Member

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    Every 2 hours is what is done for a curve. This will give you an idea how fast his BG drops and when it reaches it's lowest point. You might give a copy to your vet. Vets charge a lot to run curves. By doing your own testing, you are saving a lot.
     
  22. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    Okay folks, marmalades BG ,279, this morning, 12/19, was at 5:45a vs 6a. Should I document this on 12/19 or put it in with 12/18. Should I keep his insulin at 2 units since he didn’t have a bounce this morning?
     
  23. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Why would you do that? It's a perfect safe nadir number! Exactly what we want to see.
     
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  24. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I see that nice yellow PS this AM. Have you dosed him already? I might have tried 1.75 u instead of dropping to 1.5 u - or are you going by a scale Janet gave you? I'll defer to that if you are. Janet is the Vetsulin sliding scale guru! ;)
     
  25. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    I’m was going by janet’s recommendations, so far so good. This morning I went by her BG level guidelines that she recommended yesterday or the day before. I was so glad to see yelloebthis morning
     
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  26. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Looks good so far! :)
     
  27. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Well if 1.5 isn't enough next time we can try 1.75. (In always more conservative with what I recommend to other people, ya know?)
     
  28. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    BG 397 this morning, yikes. Just when I was so glad to see yellow for a full day
     
  29. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Have you given Marmalade his insulin yet, Mary? I see 2 u on your SS. Is that using Janet's sliding scale? Just asking for clarification. I know Janet gave you a scale and that's great. I have no experience with them myself.

    Keep on - you'll get there. :)
     
  30. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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  31. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    Yes, that’s with janet’s sliding scale. I was surprised this morning as I was in the yellow yesterday
     
  32. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Don't worry, Mary. This kind of up and down is normal. It's very rare for a cat to get into a BG pattern that stays the same day after day, especially when they aren't regulated (yet!).
     
  33. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    I think the holiday stress is getting to the cats too! Cc had her first pink in months today! Ugh! So annoying! She was happy though.
     
  34. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    Have to take marmalades BG at 6p, should I continue to refer to janet’s sliding scale. Just updated marmalades numbers to referance to.

    Thank u. Mary
     
  35. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I think @JanetNJ would say stick to the scale she made for now. Let's see if she responds. :)
     
  36. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    K, marmalades number was so close to blue this afternoon
     
  37. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    Marmalade still scratching around ears some even though he has no ear mites, etc. would it be use to just try a can of friskies pate to see how he Reacts?
     
  38. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    Marmalade in the blue, see SS, no insulin needed
     
  39. JeffJ

    JeffJ Well-Known Member

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    You're doing the right stuff. Sometimes it takes time to dial them in. And some cats vary.

    Leo usually gets 4.5U in the AM. His daytime nadirs vary from 70-180. Go figure. Pretty big glucose changes for the same dose.
     
  40. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Wow! Good call on a no shot, Mary. Scratching is often associated with food allergies/sensitivities. Which Fancy Feast pates does he eat?
     
  41. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    I think it’s the chicken pates but I haven’t really been keeping track. Holidays are so stressful for me. I’ll try to keep track over the next couple of days
     
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  42. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Don't be surprised if the number is on the high side in the morning. Yeah for your first blue preshot!
     
  43. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    I will be so happy if he is below 300. It’s been a long week so I probably won’t post until later in the day so,I’ll stay with the guidelines u posted
     
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  44. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    BG 247 this morning, should I still go with 1.75 units this morning?
     
  45. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    If you can test at like +4 or 5 then yes. Awesome preshot! Otherwise do 1.5 just to be safe.
     
  46. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    I'm so excited with this preshot. I expected much higher after skipping yesterday. This may be a good sign of things to come. :)
     
  47. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    Great, thank u janet. I have to work until 12 or so, I’ll try to do another test around that time.
     
  48. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    Yes, I xpected higher too.
     
  49. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Looking very promising, Mary! :)
     
  50. JeffJ

    JeffJ Well-Known Member

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    Some great numbers today. Let's hope the trend continues and that Marmalade is enjoying this BG regulation.
     
  51. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    Happy to announce that I think marmalades scratching was Due to flavors of beef feast and the seafood delight varieties of fancy feast, changed to just chicken feast and turkey and giblets he shows no signs of scratching. Even though I wasn’t available to give him insulin last night his number was pretty good this morning. Nothing confirmed just what i think

    Now I noticed him scooting on his butt when he left the litter box a little while ago. I changed litter a couple of days ago and his poops look normal with no obvious parasites, any thoughts are welcomed.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2017
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  52. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    woild feedingmhim too much cause him to scoot butt on floor? I know that it could also be due to his anal glands or change of litter, so many possibilities.
     
  53. JeffJ

    JeffJ Well-Known Member

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    The reduction to 1.5U looks good. That may be the best dose.

    For butt scooting, it's from an itchy butt or anal glands. Leo does it too, and it all occurred before any other health issues, and during a variety of food. You can "express" the anal glands yourself. I never have. We had the vet do it a few times when he seemed to be doing it a lot. Both of the following are non-Xmas topics:
    - butt scooting
    - expressing anal glands
    :D:eek:
     
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  54. JeffJ

    JeffJ Well-Known Member

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    Intestinal parasites like tapeworms can cause the butt scoots. That was not Leo's issue though.
     
  55. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    Just one more Thing to keep an eye on
     
  56. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    In your case did the butt scooting get resolved in time, this is the first time if noticed marmalade doing this, post is for jeff
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2017
  57. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    If Marmalade goes outside parasites could be a cause of butt scooting.
     
  58. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    He stays in all the time.
     
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  59. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    I just changed cat litter could that cause butt scooting?
     
  60. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I suppose it's possible if the new litter is causing some sort of sensitivity reaction. A couple of years ago I bought a different type of litter once and two of my three started to have itchy feet right after. When I went back to their usual stuff the itching stopped.
     
  61. JeffJ

    JeffJ Well-Known Member

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    I doubt the litter change would affect him that way, but who knows. For Leo, he has been doing it since he was about 5 years old. And now he is 12. He goes thru cycles.

    We had our whole house tiled, with epoxy grout for the cracks. Expensive. But impermeable to all fluids and rear end juice. Whenever we see a streak, or we see him doing it - it is cleaning time for the floor, then Leo (with warm water, paper towel).
     
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  62. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    Hummmm
     
  63. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    Is it normal to add some water to fancy feast if cat is straining when having a bowel movement
     
  64. JeffJ

    JeffJ Well-Known Member

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    We mix water into all fancy feast classics. We make the food have enough water to create a breakfast mush consistency. Our cats don't have bowel issues in that regard.
     
  65. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    I think I’ll try that, thanks for the insight. I was wondering because his stools were very hard
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2017
  66. JeffJ

    JeffJ Well-Known Member

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    Lots of people mix in pumpkin - it has fiber, and some cats like it. If you try pumpkin, it should have no additives...just pumpkin.
     
  67. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I add warm water to all of Teasel's wet food meals. In the past he had many bouts of (often sterile) cystitis and since he's been eating "stew" he's been fine. I think all the extra FD attention has helped too because I'm sure in his case stress was a factor.
     
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  68. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    Yikes, please refer to SS. Marmalades BG was 22 at 6p. Added some karosyruo to his food. Can anyone offer any insight as to why it dropped that low. The last time it dropped it got down to 81. I didn’t check his BG after 9a this morning because it has been going up by his PMPS. Would this be a hypo?

    * added half teaspoon of karo, should I give him more than that?
    *Any suggestions or insight is welcomed
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2017
  69. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    if this happens again, would it be better to feed him the turkey and gravy vs the karo syrup. I always forget that is a good option as I immediately go into panick. Marmalade didn’t do anything different, slept for most of the day which he does sometimes
     
  70. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    Now it’s 315, went from 22 at 6p gave him 1 can of food plus the karo, now he is 315 half an hour later, should I give insulin still per janet’s guidelines
     
  71. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Most likely that 22 was a false reading. Did you take a second reading? Karo will raise bg, but not 300 points. If you ever get a weird unexpected number like that, immediately take a second reading to confirm. Sometimes if the blood drop is too small it will read low.
     
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  72. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    Thanks for getting back to me janet, yes here is what I have so far
    6p-BG 22 , lots of food, and kar
    6:22- BG 315
    7:22- BG 345

    * can I still give him his 1.75 units or did I miss my window
     
  73. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    You can do it as long as you will be able to shoot tomorrow at 11.5-12 hours
     
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  74. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    So instead of his normal 6a and 6p I should do 7a and 7p?

    * how should I document this? In terms of most accurate BG?
     
  75. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    7 and 7 are fine. You can adjust the time by up to an hour with vetsulin.[/QUOTE]
     
  76. JeffJ

    JeffJ Well-Known Member

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    Sorry I missed this, just returned from family xmas. As usual, I agree with Janet. If you ever suspect a hypo, test twice. Kudos to you for being ready for the hypo, and for the immediate followup testing.
     
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  77. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    [/QUOTE]
    Woot, woot, I’m in the blue, see SS
     
  78. JeffJ

    JeffJ Well-Known Member

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    Those are some very nice blues, giving Marmalade a break from all the high numbers just a couple of weeks ago.
     
  79. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    Thank u Jeff for your support, I really needed that, had a very upsetting christmas
     
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  80. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Awesome! Your number is close to 200. How would you feel about giving a small 0.5 dose to keep it from going up too much tomorrow? Or are you too nervous for that?
     
  81. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    When should I give him a 0.5 dose? I have to work from 9a- 3p, would that be pushing it since I can’t test him throughout the day
     
  82. donnalea

    donnalea Member

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    I'm so sorry that your Christmas wasn't all it should be.
     
  83. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    I’m getting used to it, it’s the same disappointments every year
     
  84. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    I’m sorry about your Christmas Mary:bighug: Here’s hoping 2018 brings happier times
     
  85. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    Thank you
     
  86. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    I ment a small dose tonight.... So it's not too high tomorrow morning. It's OK if you skipped though.
     
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  87. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    Around what time tonight? Being I have to work all day tomorrow would he be alright as I won’t be able to test him throughout the day. Should I give him 1/2 can of fancy feast with that dose?

    * I just checked out your video, it’s nice to meet u
     
  88. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    If I decide to dose, what time? With food?
     
  89. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    BG 356, should i still give small dose if 0.5? I don’t mind if it goes up but this is ridiculous. Also gave 1/2 can of fancy feast
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2017
  90. JeffJ

    JeffJ Well-Known Member

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    "had a very upsetting christmas"
    Yeah, I've had plenty of those. Ya know with cats - they only give affection and cuddles. I guess there may be some good humans around too :) In fact, most of them are on this forum :joyful:

    Do not dose now, it's too late. I do not move the dose time more than 60-80 minutes.

    Remember there is a 20% variance in all readings. So 192 is pretty close to 200. You could do a .25 or 0.5 reduced dose if you are worried. Marmalade might be like Leo. On many morning doses, Leo's nadir starts at AMPS+8 and runs thru AMPS+14 (into PM). So if he is close to 200, he gets his night dose. Since he eats less at night, he doesn't need as much insulin.

    Don't copy Leo's dosing:
    Leo AM 4.5 Units
    Leo PM 3.0 Units

    Thanks for keeping up your spreadsheet, it is helpful.
    .
     
  91. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    So it’s most likely going to be even higher tomorrow AMPS?
     
  92. JeffJ

    JeffJ Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that probably is the case. Please consider switching to one of the depot insulins (Lantus, Levemir, Prozinc). Dosing is easier, and the effects on Marmalade level out over multiple cycles.

    This thread is long, but I don't think it was discussed yet.
    Vetsulin is "harsh". Onset is almost immediate, and it has almost no lasting effects past 12 hours.
    Depot insulins form a "depot", and slowly dissolves into the body. So the onset is gentle, with a peak effect at nadir. And there is an overlap past 12 hours.
     
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  93. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    I will try to see what Janice thinks, I have to consider cost of switching to different insulin
     
  94. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    I would wait a few more weeks. The vetsulin is working for now. If by the time it's time to replace your vial you would like a change, switch then.
     
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  95. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    Janet I was at 303 this morning, should we make any changes in sliding scale? Just wondering what your thoughts are? I am also wondering if we should change/ add more units at PMPS?
     
  96. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Ok let's tweak it now that you have more data. See how it works and reevaluate as needed.

    120-140: 0.25u if you can monitor
    140-175: 0.5u if you can monitor
    175-200: 0.75 if you can monitor
    200-225:1
    225-275:1.5u
    275-300: 1.75u
    300-375 2u
    375+: 2.25
     
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  97. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    Good morning janet, just took marmalades BG, see SS, should we still do the revisions. It seems that the previous parameters worked best for the am, just had to ask per latest numbers. I’m not doubting u I am just having more questions as I go on
     
  98. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    OK then feel free to stick to the old chart. Its good you doubt me.... questioning is good. You are correct, 1.75 seems to be just right for 303. so stick to the old chart, but maybe just add in some of those lower end numbers and a higher end number. what does everyone think of :
    120-140: 0.25u if you can monitor
    140-175: 0.5u if you can monitor
    175-200: 0.75-1 if you can monitor
    200-250:1.25
    250-280:1.5u
    280-320: 1.75u
    320-375 2u
    375+: 2.25
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2017
  99. mary hornbeck

    mary hornbeck Member

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    Janet what do u think about changing the parameters for the PMPS ? Do umthink by the data that this seems to be marmalades peak times. I would like to get some numbers throughout the night but it is hard with having to get up for work in the am. Maybe I’d we change the parameters in the PMPS his numbers will be in the 200’s at the AMPS?

    I can’t figure him out to save my life st this point. The more these numbers are all over the place the more I feel defeated
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2017
  100. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    the last few days the pm numbers have been odd... You haven't dosed 3 out of 6 of the days. another one of those days you got a weird reading and then underdosed to be safe. Lets give it a few more days, keep to the chart being sure to dose a little at those lower numbers that were skipped and see what happens. then you can decided if you need to change the dosing.
     
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