Black mouth

Tiger was diagnosed with diabetes 9 weeks ago. For 6 weeks he was treated with tablets. Three weeks now on Pro-Zinc Insulin. I noticed today his mouth has a ring of black around it and a spot of black in the roof of mouth about the size of a quarter. Does this have any connection to the disease or treatment?

 

Is Tiger orange? It's normal for orange cats to develop black spots/freckles on their noses, lips, even inside the mouth as they age.

I would have the vet check it out anyways.

 

I haven't heard of pigmentation changes being related to diabetes or diabetes treatment.

Many years ago I took a cat to the vet because I was worried about a black splotch that had appeared in his mouth. The vet took one look and said it was just normal pigmentation and would likely increase as the cat aged. That cat lived to 17 1/2 and was mostly healthy until his last few weeks.

So, it could be normal, and you are just noticing it now because we all get hyper-alert about our kitties when they are diagnosed. But if you are worried about it, and particularly if it changes over the next few days or weeks, by all means have the vet take a look.

 

Thank You!!! He is Orange,and he is 10 years old. I was worried because I had not seen all this black during the oral dosing period when I had to open his mouth twice a day. It just came to my attention today and I was afraid the insulin was causing it or he was getting worse with the diabetes. Also,he seems to be on a high dose (6u twice a day).It just seems like a lot since he weighs only 9lbs.

 

*blink*
Six units twice a day??? That is a lot of insulin for a cat diagnosed only 9 weeks ago.
Seriously - a lot of insulin.

Could you please advise what insulin Tiger is on and what, exactly, that you are feeding him?
Also, are you home testing Tiger?

~M

 

I have read that orange cats are very likely to have those black splotches. If that's all it is, there's nothing to worry about.

Do you have a spreadsheet of dosing and BG numbers? Your dose does sound high to me (but I'm definitely nothing even approaching an expert on that issue). I do know that the people who know what they are doing with dosing questions are going to want to look at some numbers before they give opinions on the dose.

If you aren't hometesting yet, we can help you get supplies and learn how. Just ask.

 

He is on Pro-Zinc Insulin and I am feeding him Hills Prescription Diet W/D Formula and I am home testing him with the AlphaTrak Blood Glucose Monitoring System twice a day and I thought the dose was high but was not sure enough to question the vet

 

Hey there, and welcome.

Is it M/D dry or wet food?

Also you are home testing right? So you will want to be home testing at least twice per day. And if you could get your spread sheet going that would be a big help too. The instructions can be fund in the Tech Support forum.

6u of ProZinc does sounds like a lot. There are some high dose kitties out there that need that much but they are not common. H is 14lbs and gets less than 1u of ProZinc for instance - but weight generally doesn't play much of a roll in how much insulin a cat needs.

Anyway, I'm sure you will get more people giving the similar advice but hopefully you can modify Tiger's diet and then he will hopefully need less insulin. Diabetic kitties should be on a "low carb" wet food ONLY diet. "Low carb" = less than 9-10% carbs as %Kcal. I know right now, your scratching your head sayin' "what is this fellow talking about?" But if you go to Janet & Binky's food charts you will find all sorts of commercial canned food choices:
http://binkyspage.tripod.com/canfood.html

The prescription diets are not needed and generally have very average ingredients anyway.

When you do change the diet, it will be important that you reduce the insulin dose [probably to 1u] and also probably test for ketones if the numbers shoot up during the process of figuring out the new appropriate dose.

I hope I'm not missing anything. Others here are much better at the intro advice than I am.

Also, please feel free to join us and post in the PZI Insulin Support Group any time. And again welcome, you've come to the right place.

 

okay, I am not a vet, so take what I am about to say as helpful advice from a non-vet who is very familiar with treating diabetes in cats, dogs, and humans....


Pro-Zinc is a U40 insulin - I will assume that you are using U40 syringes, (if you are using U100 syringes, please tell me, okay?) If you are not using U100 syringes to dose with, you might want to get some with 1/2 unit markings because they are much easier to fine tune a dose with and there is a handy dandy conversion table to use for U40 insulin in U100 syringes. http://felinediabetes.com/insulin-conversions.htm
I strongly encourage you to immediately start Tiger over on insulin at 1 unit bid and read the primer on PZI, which is, I believe, the closest out there to the newly prescribed Pro-Zinc (located, conveniently, in the PZI sub-forum) viewforum.php?f=24 I will cross post in the PZI forum that you are seeking information on how to help your kitty and people that are using the same insulin for their babies will assist you, too.

Hills w/d canned is extremely high in carbohydrates (26%) and not at all appropriate for a diabetic cat.
Dry is even higher in carb content @ 37%! With the dose of insulin that Tiger has been receiving, I am betting that the Hills W/D is the only thing that has kept him from going hypo on you.

Testing before every single injection is a must. Testing at the midpoint, too, would be even better - in other words, a minimum of four tests per day - testing approximately every 6 hours, is even better because that way, you know how Tiger is reacting to his insulin better. The more informed that you are, the better you can help Tiger manage his disease.

Please be sure to read this next link thoroughly and print it out to keep somewhere for immediate retrieval in the event that he does hypo on you: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1122

You can find much more appropriate food choices here: http://binkyspage.tripod.com/canfood.html Try to choose foods that are below 10% in carbs, but the lower, the better. My diet controlled baby gets nothing over 5% in carbs. Wet (canned) is always better than dry for kitties.

However, please do not change his food to lower carb food until you decrease his insulin dose to 1unit, or less twice a day. ​

Lastly, I encourage you to ask questions, lots of questions. We have all been where you are now. Every single one of us has walked in your shoes.

Regards,
~M

 

Hello!!
I can't say more about the dose than the others who are all far more knowledgeable.

I can tell you a little about the black spots. My orange tabby develops a few new ones each year since he was around 3 or 4yrs (I think?!). Think of them like rings of a tree stump-they multiply with age!! My vet remarked on them when they first appeared during an annual physical. She said they are quite common in orange tabby cats, and nothing to be worried about.
Charlie has them on his nose, eyes, and lips (his lips/outer gums look almost like they have a ring of black).
I just tried to check the roof of his mouth--and he was having none of that!! nailbite_smile I would be willing to bet he has a few there too!!

Hang in there--you're doing great!

 

Thanks for all your help and info.I have been busy printing a lot of the information and plan to discuss a lot of it with our Vet.
B

 

It can be a tough sell sometimes. Hopefully you have an understanding vet and they won't think you've lost your marbles [or got into your kitty's catnip stash] :smile:

If it turns out your vet thinks your kitty is one of those high dose kitties there are lab test for conditions like acromegaly that can cause a cat to need a lot of insulin. If you post in the high dose forum they can tell you what tests [and the best way to achieve them] are appropriate to figure out of your cat has one of those conditions.

None of our vets think diet has to do with anything - how wrong they've been.

Good luck and please keep us posted of your progress.

 

Hello and welcome to FDMB! You've come to the best place to help Tiger and yourself. It is such a wonderful community of help, support, and information. As others have said, we have all been where you are and we know how overwhelming, scary, and frustrating it can be. Ask any questions you think of, read all you can, and remember that while 99% of the people here are not vets or vet techs, they do have years of daily experience with feline diabetes, something that a lot of vets cannot lay claim to.

You have gotten great advice already as far as dosing and food. As Gator suggested, please do come on over to the PZI forum and say hello. You can post specific dosing questions there (or anything else you want to, of course!). If you have an emergency/immediate answer needed question, I would suggest posting to both Health and PZI, particularly if it's late at night. Health oftentimes gets much more traffic than PZI Land, and you might get a quicker response/more eyes on your question.

Again, welcome and we look forward to getting to know you and Tiger!

 

Gator mentioned ketone testing. I want to stress that part of treatment for a newly diagnosed diabetic cat or one that is not yet well regulated. Ketones are discussed in the pet diabetes wiki here. Ketones can rapidly develop into a life threatening condition that is very expensive to treat. Early detection is truly important.

Human pharmacies carry Ketostix or Ketodiastix that are used to test ketones (and the second also tests sugar in the urine). Pick some up as soon as possible and get into a habit of testing Tiger everyday. If ketones ever test higher than "none," post on the Health Board for advice.

Best to you and Tiger!!