blackie's 8u dose

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by Anonymous, Jul 1, 2010.

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  1. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    you know angela and all the rest of us here, blackie actually recovered 'bounce' wise very quickly from that overdose. and it is usually wise not to shoot the next dose after a hypo as the body become hyper sensitive to insulin (tho' i see plenty of folks shooting anyway)
    but i just thought we should almost archive that ss day to show what a hypo bounce, panicky liver, rebound whatever you want to call it really looks like. seems we use the rebound story too easily with out much evidence. THAT day, the 8u, that was a classic bounce. rebound. panicky liver.
    FWIW
    lori
    and tomtom too!
     
  2. Gator & H (GA)

    Gator & H (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Jan 3, 2010
    If it fits in the "rebound" category then you could easily update the petdiabetes wiki with the example. Heck might even update the "rebound" section to include "panicky liver" while you are at it. It is a Wiki so anyone can edit. I've worked on portions myself.
     
  3. Joanna & Bix (GA)

    Joanna & Bix (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    yeah, it is nice when someone has data that really shows how things can work, in concrete #s that really make it clear - every now and then I see something really useful like that, and always forget when & where I saw it!!!! good idea to make a note of it somewhere as a great reference example... although it bites for the kitty & bean that had to deal with it at the time (but all's well that end's well I guess!)
     
  4. Angela & Blackie & 3 Others

    Angela & Blackie & 3 Others Well-Known Member

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    Mar 15, 2010
    Please feel free to use her information. Whatever I can post from her tests could be helpful for others.

    What does "bean" mean?

    What does "panicky liver" mean?

    Please forgive my ignorance on these questions. I'm still very new at taking the reins on Blackie's treatment.
     
  5. Donna & Buddha

    Donna & Buddha Member

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    Dec 29, 2009
  6. Angela & Blackie & 3 Others

    Angela & Blackie & 3 Others Well-Known Member

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    Mar 15, 2010
    Thank you. I've saved it in case I need to look something up. :)
     
  7. Hope and Aria

    Hope and Aria Member

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    Feb 25, 2010
    Panicky liver is when the cat's body dumps glucose into the system thinking that the blood sugar levels are too low. In a cat who has diabetes (and who may have been been unregulated for a while before dx) the cat's body gets used to the higher bg levels and considers those more of the norm. Once the diet is changed and insulin is administered, the bg's start to go back towards what is truly normal #'s, but the cat's body has become so used to the high #'s that it considers it too low and the body panics and the liver dumps glucose. Thus the panicky liver.

    This is another excellent reason for the Start Low, Go Slow approach. The body needs to relearn what normal bg's are and not what it's gotten used to. There's where you'll hear the phrase "liver training."
     
  8. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    in lantus they have a theory or a process they call 'panicky liver school' where they shoot right thru it, that would be if you drop to low, the liver kicks up the glucose dump and your next # is unreasonably high (which should be the clue you have panic liver) over there they just keep shooting same dose.
    when i grew up here we always skipped next dose or kept it very low as the thought was the body is now temporarily very insulin sensitive. the glucose the liver dumped invariably took itself down.
    different insulins?
    different approaches?
    thoughts?
    i did'nt shoot my first post hypo high # in '07 and sure enough watched with glee as it came down. the low was 30ish, the next PS high was an unusual (for him) high 300's and +4 without shot was 150 ish. oh joy...better than sex :mrgreen:
     
  9. Joanna & Bix (GA)

    Joanna & Bix (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    My understanding with PZI is you shoot through it when it's a false alarm (#s not too low, and drop not too steep). In those cases you just ignore it, continue with the dose you are on, and raise it if needed on whatever schedule you are following (i.e. don't raise the dose when you see the reds, but don't lower it either, and if you don't get improvement on that dose in a few cycles, then you go ahead and raise).

    If it's a real alarm though, like actual low #s or really steep drops, then in my mind that is Somogyi rebound rather than liver training, and then you lower the dose, going especially gently with the shot right after the rebound so you don't risk another plunge in #s while the rebound itself is wearing off and the #s coming down on their own.

    You wouldn't want to shoot through Somogyi IMO, at least on PZI, b/c that could actually cause a real hypo. I suppose you could shoot higher to counteract the red #s, but that seems pretty risky to me, you would have to be really on top of it to gauge when the reds are wearing off and then you really would need to lower the dose to avoid hypo & more Somogyi rebound. Unless you are dealing with ketones, to my mind it's better to ride out the reds and let the rebound clear itself up than to risk mis-timing things. Maybe a "for experts only" technique, I wouldn't try it myself unless there was a really compelling reason to do so.

    I have seen panicky liver that looks just like Somogyi but without any low #s - for instance a drop that is on the steeper side but not really that steep, and then you see rebound, or sometimes you see it as PS that go higher as the nadirs are starting to improve. Sometimes kitties prone to that have done better on different insulins (I'm ready for the slap today! :lol: ), or shooting TID or changing the feeding schedule or something to soften the curves. Some cats seem more sensitive to the drops than others.

    What I have seen a few times now, and I guess this is liver training school, is that if they get a few hours in blue #s they aren't used to, then you will often see a sky-high +12 (next PS), and sometimes the next cycle will be straight reds even on the same dose. But you can see from the #s there wasn't any steep drop or dangerous lows, so you know it's liver training and to be ignored, vs. Somogyi rebound & to be respected. In those cases I don't think there's any choice but to shoot through it - from what I have seen, the quickest route to more good #s is to force them to stay in good #s as long as you can til that liver settles down.
     
  10. Laurie and Mr Tinkles

    Laurie and Mr Tinkles Well-Known Member

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    May 9, 2010
    Excellent explanation, Joanna. :D
     
  11. Angela & Blackie & 3 Others

    Angela & Blackie & 3 Others Well-Known Member

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    Mar 15, 2010
    I'll be keeping her on this dose for a while longer yet. She seems to be stabilizing a bit now... somewhat. I won't be home much today to test her in another 4 hours to determine how she's doing, but I'll do another PS test this evening. Feel free to take a gander at her SS.
     
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