bounce help

I was told that Scout could be bouncing since I was shooting at too low of a BG level... How long would it take for those numbers to correct themselves? The vet suggested that I shoot consistently at .5 units (she said she thinks he is going to be come transient soon, but I'm not getting my hopes up), but I'm not sure for how many cycles. He has been in the 400's the last couple days. I'm struggling and frustrated and I don't want him to be uncomfortable if I'm not giving him enough insulin.

 

Can you get some mid cycle numbers this weekend? My guess would be he needs more insulin, but it is always possible that he is dropping low and bouncing back up, and more insulin will make that worse. Once you make sure he is not dropping (your one mid cycle didn't look like it, you could look at increasing to one unit for a few cycles and then if that is not enough, then 1.25

 

Just had to ask: Are you testing for ketones, Kristin? (Never a bad idea ...)

 

yes I have a few times. The coloring on the side of the strip bottle is weird and hard to match though. it always comes back somewhere between negative and trace

 

Glad to hear that it's not at the other end of the color spectrum.

 

do I need to be worried about "trace"? or is that somewhat normal for diabetic cats?

 

Well ... I may not be the one to ask, but when Bat-Bat's were at trace level (early in treatment), my vet told me that a trace level is "nothing to fret" about. That said, others can probably weigh in with more info for you ... (Am I mistaken, or did Scout have a dental recently? Gah, sometimes it's hard to keep track of who's done what!)

 

yes! scout just had his dental a couple weeks ago

 

Ha, my memory's not as bad as I thought. Just throwing this out there: Is a possibility that he has some inflammation going on in his mouth ... sometimes the rigors of the actual procedure can cause that. Did he have any extractions @ that time? Did the vet put him on antibiotics?

 

no extractions, but he did have a mild case of gingivitis before his cleaning. I just looked at his gums and they don't look red or inflamed, but there is is a darker line along the teeth? i'll attach a picture (ignore the food in his teeth haha)

 

Wow, I'm impressed that you got that photo! (If I attempted this with Bat, I'd need a both stitches & a pt. of blood.) I don't know Kristin ... it could just be that he's still in bouncy mode; but you have held him at six cycles (including this one) @ 0.50U, so I'd be inclined to say he may need more insulin. One other idea I have though: Maybe he's sensitive enough to any increases/decreases that going up or down by a half-unit could be a little too much for him? If his PMPS hasn't come down some tonight, you might want to try only an increase of 0.25U. Maybe a more subtle dose adjustment could help keep him from bouncing? Also, how close to mid-cycle are you? Could you get another test in now?

 

Didn't know what time that +3 was taken today (we're in the same time zone).

ETA: Forgot to say I thought his gums look pretty darned good from viewing the photo ...

 

just updated with a +5 and have an alarm set to test again in 2 hours

 

Ditto, I could never get a photo of Bubba's mouth like that! But, isn't Scout a model for Kristin? He's used to the camera.

 

Ok, will check back in on you in two!

 

@Bobbie And Bubba - That's right!!! Now I'm remembering his other photo that Kristin had posted some time back ... and he's an amazing poser: Our "Mr. Perfect-Model Kitty!"

 

he is a very good model for me! haha if you guys have instagram he has his own account (that I haven't used in months oops), it's instagram.com/scout_bennett

 

Wow cute! I will check him out on Instagram. Share some of his best with the FDMB

 

I'm here, Kristin, saw the +7. I'm just sitting here studying Scout's SS, & gonna back & look at some of your older threads in a minute ...

 

okay thank you!

 

Hmmm. It appears that - in general - he bounces quite a bit whenever there's a dose change, period. Then I was looking at 8/30 & 8/31 in particular and I think the dose adjustments of anywhere from a half-unit to a full unit may be causing him to bounce & then stay high & flat.
I'm really thinking you might try an increase only to 0.75U tonight, but would need you to monitor his #s some tonight (& we've not been seeing much in the way of night cycle #s on him anyway). A drag, I know ... as requires alarm-setting & maybe even some , but we just really haven't seen much of what his body's doing during that pm cycle.

One other thing: Can you get a weight on him for me?
And can you remind me of what & when he's eating currently, and his total intake (ozs) over 24 hrs?

 

He's eating FF Classics, three 3 oz cans daily (1 1/2 AM, 1 1/2 PM). an occasional freeze dried treat. only feeding him twice daily, no mini meals.

I'll get back to you on his weight. the scale is buried somewhere in the garage, but i'll go out and look for it tonight.

 

Excellent! (When Bat-Bat was diagnosed again, I realized I'd given my scale away the year before ... so had to get a new one.)

 

okay scout weighed in at 13.4 lbs tonight. and his PMPS was at 433

 

What you you planning on doing for his dose? An increase of 0.25U or what?

 

yeah I think I'll try that. not sure how successful I'll be at doing a night curve though haha

 

You may want to try cutting back just a wee bit on his daily rations ... perhaps to 1-1/3 can each meal, rather than 1-1/2.

 

okay! will that little amount of food make a difference? he's just so demanding every meal time! you'd swear he hadn't eaten for an entire week

 

Oh, I know! I used to have to set 2 alarms, 5 to 10 min. apart to make certain I'd actually wake up!

 

Well that's his diabetes "talking" ... once he's regulated a little more, that "I'm starving to death" routine will start letting up some (but maybe not entirely; Bat-Bat will always be VERY enthusiastic about eating).

I would rather you do a ration reduction gradually though, and here's why: You've just slightly increased his insulin; it's better to do the redux on total daily rations, gradually, too - as both the insulin + less food can bring his #s down further. (What appears to be a really small amount of food to us is more to a cat's body.) We also don't want him to drop weight too quickly; really rapid weight loss is too stressful on a cat's organ systems.

So I'd do 1-1/3 cans twice/day for a about 7-10 days, then try going to 1-1/4 cans twice/day. That would mean he ends up down to 2-1/2 cans/day. (I have a feeling that Scout could be good at more like 12.5 lbs.; you ultimately want him slender, rather than at "medium" weight. (But not emaciated; i.e., that "skin & bones" look like we sometimes see by the time a kitty's finally diagnosed with diabetes.) What do you think?

You'll want to weigh him daily while you're doing this, too. Try to do it at the same time each day, like right before a meal or in the middle of the day, or near bedtime. (This way the tally won't be affected by a bellyful of food!)

 

(Sorry I took so long to past the above. A neighbor stopped by unexpectedly with an adorable 4-month-old puppy, so I was distracted while getting my "doggie fix!")

 

he's kinda a really long cat... he looks thin right now (in my opinion). he has these things on him that i call "doofle dangles"- they're like flabs of excess skin on the sides of his belly that sway in the wind when he trots along lol he's had them even when he was near 20 lbs. i'll try lowering his rations though (it'll save me $$ ) but i already felt like i wasn't feeding him enough.

i eyeballed .75 units tonight and just took his +3 and he was already lower than he was all day!

 

Wow, that's great that he's dropped to 351 by +3; go, Scout!
Funny that you mentioned Scout's "doofle dangles" - Bat has the same thing! (She used to be more than 18 lbs. at one point.) My vet told me that's called an "inguinal flap." She even had that when she was a kitten. I like the sound of doofle-dangles way better, though.

It was really hard for me to get used to Bat-Bat being a svelte girl - I kept asking my vet, "Don't you think she should weigh more like 12 or 12.5 lbs?" He said, "No, Robin. With a diabetic cat, slender really is a better weight for her, and I'd rather she not go beyond 11 pounds. (She's a long cat, too, btw. Looks like a mini-panther!) So I guess what I'd tell you, as you're looking at Scout, is: As long as his hip bones and back bone aren't protruding & his rib cage isn't plainly sticking out, being a slim-jim type may not be such a bad idea. (Do you have that body condition chart? I can't recall if I'd sent that to you ...) I also have a different one to look at, if that would help you at all.

 

someone please help me. scout's numbers suck and i don't know what is going on. it's like the insulin isn't helping at all anymore

 

the past few days i have noticed he has been in a "funk"- not acting himself, seems down, "angry" facial expressions

 

I would raise the dose, Kristin.this is your second cycle on one unit, right? Maybe do one unit again tonight as it's overnight and then tomorrow, 1.25, if you can only get a nadir.1.5 if you can monitor carefully. 1.5 worked well on pinks and reds before while lowering the dose on yellows worked good. I think the issue was staying too long on one dose. He looks like he needs a sliding scale, with more insulin for the higher ranges and less for the lower. If he drops more tonight and is lower for amps tomorrow, advice revision needed.

I think you were testing for ketones, right? If you get more than a trace, ever, you need to hit the vet. He is still eating well? Adding water to his food will help with any dehydration, if you aren't doing that already. Not lethargic? Still eating well?

I am sorry. I lost track of you. I think we went down too far and stayed there too long. But it should only take a couple cycles to get it back.

 

no, not lethargic. sleeping as usual throughout the day, just seems a little off.

yes i test for ketones when i'm able to catch him in the litter box. still eating well, was drinking slightly more when i was only giving him .5- i noticed i was needing to fill his water bowl more often, but it seems to have slowed down as of now.

I just started with 1 unit last night and this morning. too soon to up it tonight? I feel like the sliding scale messed everything up for me- or i didn't do it right. i shot when i shouldn't have and didn't realize it. it's all so frustrating that my effort to help him isn't working!

 

Let'S see what he looks like tonight and tomorrow morning. With high numbers, you can up the dose every 3 cycles.

He does bounce around but it makes sense to me that the same dose that works for a 200 just won't do as much for a 400. We can work with the bounces; I'd just like to see him down mid cycle.

Kirsten, you are working hard at something that is complicated. I wrote this earlier for Lucy - maybe it will help.

The important thing is that you are working to keep him in good safe ranges by testing him regularly. I think one of the hardest aspects of this sugar dance is to understand that insulin is a hormone, not medicine. So you can't think of it as I get a headache, I take an aspirin and it goes away in 30 minutes, every time. Instead either think of a teen age girl or a post menopausal woman. It is a variable process - different on different days, always a surprise, not predictable and certainly not results that can be applied to another other teenage girl or women going through menopause. Throw in Maybe he's having a difficult time with a BM one his tummy is feeling off or he saw a squirrel outside.... We'd like to think we can get our heads around this thing, but it is a moving target. We just do the best we can, on any given day.

There's my pep talk for today. The thing that you did for him is not to give up when you got the diagnosis. Instead you are pedaling as fast as you can. Many people have a diabetic cat put to sleep. Anyone who decides to treat him instead is a hero in my book!

 

thank you :') it really means a lot to me.

my world revolves around Scout- he's my soulcat. the best pet i've ever had and i can't imagine giving up on him

 

Hi Kristin! I just wanted to chime in and say I agree with Sue. About the dosing and about you doing a great job.

You say you can't imagine giving up on him and I get that...but think of all the people who DO give up on their cats. They hear diabetes and instead of trying to help, they put them to sleep or give them to shelters. You got the diagnosis and said I will help you. That means everything.

You're doing what you can with what data you have...that's all any of us can do. Don't lose heart! You're doing great!

 

you guys. this cat is going to be the death of me. i just got back home and found scout devouring a box of cereal. i don't know how much more i can possibly scout-proof my kitchen. i'm going to have to start crate training him like a dog!

 

All right...it's time for your kitchen to become a bomb shelter! Scout's too sneaky for his own good!

 

Oh, Kristin ... I feel your pain! It can be so enormously frustrating when you have a "chow-hound" kitty!

I literally have to always check the floors (thanks to my SO's bad habit of walkabout snacking), make certain cabinet doors are tightly closed, trash bin is secured, any dishes/pots/pans have zero food scraps in/on them after dinner, etc. because (even now that she's well-regulated), "Ms. Vacuum Face" will find any little thing that resembles food! While I realize this lifelong bad habit of hers is due to her nearly starving to death as a feral kitten when I rescued her @ 1 month of age, knowing the cause doesn't make dealing with her day-to-day any easier.

So I will echo @Rachel here: Don't lose heart! You're doing great!
(Hang in there, Kristin ... it really does get better in time. )

 

OMG! That is crazy!! I thought Bubba was a pig-face but, Scout is leading the pack!

 

what should I do for Scout when his numbers go crazy because of the heat? the AC has stopped working and I feel like it's affecting his numbers because they've gone back really high

 

Hi Kristen, looks like you have a lot going on with moving and no AC, I am going to tag @Robin&BB to help you. Hang tight.

 

Looks like Robin is offline, I will tag @BJM and see if she can help.

 

You follow your guidelines as best you can.
Dampen the paw pads with water which will help cool him.
Maybe set up a swamp cooler - hang a towel so that it is just into some water and blow a fan over it.
Or get some bricks of ice to cool the place and blow a fan over that.

Have you got a basement? They tend to be cooler.
He may be stressed from the move still. Will he play for you at all?


(Was already on it!)

 

I've tried almost everything- homemade AC units out of ice chests and blocks of ice, but he doesn't like staying in my room all day and I can't lock him in away from his litter box and water. I'll try dampening his paw pads hopefully that will help but the weather in SoCal is brutal right now. luckily were high 80's today opposed to the last few days have been triple digits

 

Just did a Google search - they make cooling mattress pads, if one might be in budget, perhaps that would help?

 

we moved temporarily back to my moms- he's been here before and has had no trouble adjusting. he's not acting stressed or scared- yes he will play still with his toys and the laser but I don't want to wear him out in this heat. I've chilled his distilled water but it doesn't stay cold for too long if he doesn't drink it right away

 

not quite in budget right now but thanks! I never thought of that. maybe I'll look around and see if I can find a sale or something. or maybe a tiny animal sized one

 

maybe freeze ziploc baggies and put in a large plastic tub (in case of leaks!) with a layer over it?

 

haha the only problem would be getting him to lay in it. maybe if I did a human sized tub and pretended it was for me he would claim it as his own

 

If the heat is what is causing the numbers to vary, and he isn't comfortable, he might lie on it.
If you palpate his abdomen/rub his tummy does he respond as if he is painful?

 

no he starts purring and rolling around begging for more rubs haha

 

Thats good.
Teeth OK?
Intake and output OK?

 

yes everything else seems regular. his teeth and gums looks fine he just had a dental a couple weeks ago

 

OK. Just wanted to be sure we didn't miss something brewing.

 

ok i'm getting really nervous because i'm leaving for vacation sept 16-21 and this is the first time i'll be far away enough where i can't jump in the car and be home in a couple hours. my boyfriend is in charge of scout and his meals/injections. he has no problem measuring and shooting scout, but he has trouble with taking a blood test... and it doesn't help that he's highly allergic. by looking at scout's numbers do you think he look stable enough to where he can get 2.5 units ever 12 hours without getting tested? he does know how to test him, but its just a matter of whether or not scout will cooperate for him.

 

Hmm ... Kristin, this is trickier to figure out because we don't have much in the way of mid-cycle numbers lately.

I'm concerned about keeping the dose at 2.5U while you're away without any pre-shot tests going on. Here's why: I'm beginning to wonder if maybe Scout's dose of insulin isn't actually a little too much. (I'm basing this on looking back at the pattern in his SS, where we can see some mid-cycle #s ...) As is possible that with too high a dose, his body can be compensating for it - and then you see consistently high AMPS/PMPS #s as a result. This can happen ... Just a thought. Input from some others, on this? Such as @Sue and Oliver (GA), @BJM , @Rachel - ???

 

hmm okay. i'll curve today and tomorrow. do you think i should lower him back down to 2 units tonight?

 

At this point, I don't think it would hurt to try a reduction, as your recent higher doses sure don't seem to be doing much of anything ...
Can you can manage getting in a couple of mid-cycle tests tonight?
I like your idea of getting a curve during tomorrow's day cycle, btw; this will help give you a better idea of what's going on in general.
(How's your sneaky boy been doing on staying out of contraband food? Did you see the post about Samir, the beer-loving kitty, on another thread - this forum - yesterday? Pretty funny stuff!)

 

I think we can figure out what a safer dose would be after seeing your curve. If your BF isn't able to get preshots numbers, I would probably think about lowering the dose while you're gone...for safety's sake.

Does he have info on what to do if he suspects a hypo, what signs to look for, etc? Also, does he know your vet? You might want to make sure you leave instructions/permission for him to take Scout to the vet and do whatever needs to be done. Not saying he'll need it, but just in case.

 

@Rachel -I was thinking that maybe doing a slight redux tonight might give Kristin a head start on seeing how that scenario may roll out while she's away? @Kristin & Scout - Am I correct in assuming you're leaving Wednesday?

 

I think that's a great idea @Robin&BB. @Kristin & Scout sound good to you?

 

yes i am leaving early wednesday morning- about 2 hours before his AM shot. just took his +6 and he hasn't dropped much at all today. my bf is familiar with the vet and has come with me several times, but i will leave hypo signs for him just in case

 

I went on vacation for four days last month and then I am going again for a week in October. My brother handled all the animal chores. He tested at pre-shots but no nadir tests. I was also gone all in March and April of this year in which my husband took care of Merlin. Again, pre-shot tests but no nadir tests. I created a vacation dose which was anywhere from .2 to .4 lower than usual. I also indicated a "no shoot" under 220 instead of the 200 (even though I shoot at 180). It worked out really well and I felt better and I couldn't believe how well his numbers were while I was gone. You can see in my comment section my vacation dose (sliding scale). The green shade on my ss indicates vacation. I will probably use the same dose schedule again. Also I printed off the hypo document and made him read it before I left. I created five syringe samples with yellow dye in it and indicated by tape of how much it is and to use for what numbers. I also switched to the vacation dose about 3-4 days before I left, so I knew how Merlin would respond. When I was gone for March and April, my husband entered the numbers in the ss but for my brother, I drew a little graph for him to fill in i.e. date, dose, number and am or pm.

 

@Rachel - Good reminder re: making arrangements re: vet/hypo before leaving town, btw.
(That's the sort of stuff I tend to remember right after I board a plane... )

 

@Merlin - Wow, Cindi - that is too outstanding!

ETA: And have just pasted your entire post into my "advice" file.

 

do you guys think i need to lower his dose below 2units tonight? and is it more likely that he needs less insulin rather than his high numbers being from the heat? i've also noticed his voice has seemed a little raspy lately, but i'm not sure how much that has to do with any of this

 

Kristin, I'm not sure that I'd recommend you do more than a 0.5 unit reduction all at one time, as that might be too extreme a redux? Would love to get some additional input from - esp. from @BJM, @Sue and Oliver (GA) on this idea ... Let's see if they will jump in here with their take on it, as they may have a better idea than I do.

ETA: @Rachel - what's your take on this idea of Kristin's?

 

If he was mine, I'd just go down to 2 units tonight. Remember, part of the reason we are doing this is to see what a good vacation dose would be. Going down just by .5 will give us some info and even if that dose is too high for a vacation dose, we'll be able to see that and can take it from there.

 

@Rachel - Thanks for joining in here. You explained the reasoning perfectly!

 

I think 2 units is a good trial for a curve. If he is really high, then maybe 2.5 for a vacation dose,. Does your BF know how to do a ketone test?

I think, when you get home, if he is still high, I'd go up.

 

ok so i did scout's night curve (even though it has turned me into a zombie lol) and he did run a bit lower through the night, or maybe it was the dose reduction haha.

idk if my boyfriend will be around enough to catch scout in the litter box to check for ketones but i will put it on his list of instructions (aka demands )

 

Good luck Kristin and have a nice time on vacation. When I went to MI in early August, I had instructions or "demand" like crazy for my husband. He would call me after each pre-shot test and I would guide him if the dose needed to be changed. Try and go and relax and not worry. (easier said than done)

 

It was a little lower last night. I'd say go ahead with 2 units while on your trip and feel that he will be safe. When you get back, we'll see where things stand.

Getting a ketone test would probably be a real test of his devotion.

 

Hi, Kristin - Wasn't able to check in/ post earlier (just returned from taking Bat-Bat in for her first-ever dental ), but sure was heartened to see those yellows had appeared in Scout's mid-cycle last night. Re: Sue's sound advice (as usual!) on dosage while you're away - yep, I think that'll work well, so that you feel confident he's safe while your on vacation.

Loved your remark re: instructions (aka: demands) - you're a hoot! I really hope your time away is relaxing - try not to worry about Scout, as sounds like your boyfriend will do a very good job as stand-in caretaker.

 

Sue, I can't stop laughing. I don't think my husband would do that.

Very nice numbers Scout...oh yeah...just when your mama is about to leave. That is what Merlin did when I went on vacation...his numbers improved. Guess I just have to stay away!

 

Please give us an update when you get "Little Miss Sparkling Smile" safely back home.

 

ETA: Oh, and shoot us a picture of her clean teeth like Kristen did!!

 

thank you! i will definitely try to enjoy myself and not worry too much haha

I was just able to take a ketone test and it came back negative/trace

I'm mostly worried about scout getting stressed out from being lonely while I'm gone! he's gonna have a lot of free time on his hands while I'm sipping butterbeer in Orlando! haha

scouts arm still looks so funny from his dental where they had to shave it for the IV or whatever it was there. my little shaven freak cat!

 

Do you add water to your canned food? Also you might want to consider distilled water for his drinking. This was suggested to me because the more water he can get, it will help him flush out the traces of ketones. I use distilled / RO water in both his food and water dish.

 

yes I've been adding distilled water to his food! and distilled in his drinking bowl

 

Why distilled? Is refrigerator filtered okay?

 

Distilled or reverse osmosis removes quite a bit of the harsh minerals so the kidney, bladder, etc. doesn't have to work as hard trying to filter it. I don't think the refrigerator filter is as thorough.

 

Thanks for that info,I will go get some distilled water.

 

Ohhh Orlando! I'm jealous Kristin!

 

ugh. scout's PMPS was 504. now I'm nervous having to leave in the morning

 

Any chance at all that he got into anything (food-wise) this afternoon he shouldn't have, Kristin? (I know how sneaky mine can be...)

 

It's possible he went down during the day and you're seeing a bounce. Also possible he got into some contraband like Robin said. I think what Sue said is spot on...when you come home, if he's high, it's time to raise that dose.

Have fun in Orlando!

 

It is better that he is higher rather than lower while you were gone. Overnight, he had the first yellows he has seen in a while. Possibly he had yellows yesterday during the day and he is bouncing for preshots. Your boyfriend will take good care of him. Everyone deserves a break, Kristen.

 

thanks for the support guys! I've literally worried myself sick thinking about leaving him haha obviously I'm having attachment issues over here!

 

Go away and enjoy yourself! You need and you deserve it. Scout will be fine.

 

Yep, that's right; please enjoy your time off in Orlando. (Don't worry; your honey will take good care of Scout.)

 

Please go and enjoy yourself. I look at it this way. How long was he diabetic before he was diagnosed? He probably was in those high numbers for a long time and you didn't even know it, so if he is higher than usual for one week, in the whole scheme of things, it is not going to make a big difference. Also he is getting insulin now, so he isn't going to be as bad as he was before he was diagnosed. That is my theory or analogy.

 

thanks everyone! I'm having a great vacation. I've been told that Scout has been peeing a lot so I'm worried that he's not getting enough insulin. my boyfriend has tried pricking the ear to test but I don't know what he's doing because he keeps poking himself and not able to draw blood or gets an error message so he's obviously doing something wrong for testing haha so I told him to stop wasting my test strips. otherwise everything else seems fine he said!

 

Sounds like they are doing fine. Hope you are having a wonderful time!

 

Kristin, has boyfriend watched any home test videos?
Just thinking that might help him.

Have a ball in Orlando!!

PS. Just don't spend all your $$, you know you're gonna need some strips!