Can't get numbers down! Time for new insulin?

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by Cindy Lamy, Jul 13, 2017.

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  1. Cindy Lamy

    Cindy Lamy Member

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    May 29, 2017
    Hello! New to the group. My boy Butter was diagnosed with diabetes on May 12th. Since then I have been giving him 2 units of Prozinc twice a day. After a few weeks I noticed he did not seem any better. I took him back to the vet and he increased his dosage to 3 units twice a day. I then began home testing. His numbers were middle to high 500's to high 400's. We are now 8 weeks into this and the vet has increased his dosage to 5 units twice a day. He does not look much better to me and we tested him last night and it read 480. He is now urinating on the carpet sometimes and still seems very hungry and thirsty. The vet recommended Hills W/D and low carb wet food which I am using FF Classics. He is eating about 2-3 cans a day. I give him half every few hours. I called the vet yesterday and he said that he is going to consult with a vet in Seattle before he raises the dose. He said sometimes the insulin needs to be changed. I am so upset and I just want my boy to feel better. All he does is lay on the kitchen floor and sleep unless he is eating or urinating. He's so skinny. He use to be a big boy. HELP!
     
  2. srk4cats

    srk4cats Well-Known Member

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    Jan 19, 2017
    You need to have patience. My Chloe was diagnosed in January and I still don't think we have the dose right. She gets skinnier and skinnier. I can pick her up with one hand now. She used to be a big girl, too. How old is Butter?
     
  3. Cindy Lamy

    Cindy Lamy Member

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    Butter is about 9 I think. He was a stray who wouldn't leave my backyard so we brought him inside. This is so frustrating when you are following everything right and the numbers won't drop. He is eating 4 cans of food a day and still so skinny! :(
     
  4. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 17, 2016
    Actually, his BG did drop mid cycle so that tells us the insulin working. How about giving this same dose for another few days and get some data for your SS. It's the only way to see the effect of a dose and make decisions about keeping it or changing it. Right now I can't tell if 3 u is too high or too low.
     
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  5. Cindy Lamy

    Cindy Lamy Member

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    May 29, 2017
    Okay. I had to buy a new computer so I just updated the spreadsheet. It is so hard for me to test him by myself as he runs so I have to test him when another family member is home. I am trying to do before his first dose, mid cycle and before his second dose. My daughter can help me on Saturdays or Sundays to do a curve. Anything you can suggest would be so helpful. Its so tough having a busy household and trying so hard to test, feed and shoot!
     
  6. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 17, 2016
    Yes, treating FD is a complicated, time-consuming task. Are you using treats around the testing process? I do all my FD stuff with Teasel sitting on the bath mat in my bathroom, door closed. The thing for you would be to get your kitty in there first. Once I'm ready to start, I sit on the bath mat cross-legged with knees raised. Teasel is between my raised knees facing forward. I can then use my lower legs and knees to contain him. To keep his head still, I roll a hand towel and put it around his neck like a cervical collar whiplash patients use. I use treats to get him to walk into the bathroom, to come to me to get installed for testing and again right after testing.

    For what it's worth, I live alone and have a disability but have found a multitude of "work arounds".
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2017
  7. Cindy Lamy

    Cindy Lamy Member

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    May 29, 2017
    Yes, you are right. Where there's a will there is a way. I guess I just need to be more diligent. So, do you think if I keep testing at those times someone can help me get the correct dosage? He has started urinating on the carpet also. Not all the time but occasionally and my house is starting to stink. He goes in his litter box but sometime he just walks behind the couch or in the dining room and pees.
     
  8. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Aug 1, 2015
    My cat does inappropriate peeing when his numbers are too high also. We would love to help you get this figured out. Getting a routine established really does help make this easier. I can test/feed/shoot in just a few minutes each morning/evening. Once it becomes habit, it doesn't feel so overwhelming anymore.

    My kitty was a runner too, and he would get pretty aggressive. One thing that helped with the low carb treats as Kris mentioned. I also made our testing space in a corner of the kitchen counter where he was sort of fenced in by the sink on one side, and two sections of wall/bar on the other two sides. Then I stood on the 4th side. He could, and did, still escape sometimes, but it slowed him down a bit which helped me to slowly get him into the routine of standing there until the test was over. Then I fed him in the same spot so that he had positive associations with that space, then gave him the shot while he was eating. To be honest, it took a couple of months before I would say he was good for the process. As you said, where there's a will, there's a way. I just made the decision to make sure my will to test him was stronger than his will to avoid it.

    It's just me here too. There are days when I really wish someone could just take care of all of this for me, but it really is possible to do it as a "single mom".
     
  9. Cindy Lamy

    Cindy Lamy Member

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    May 29, 2017
    Thank you! I will be more dilligent! I always feel like I am hurting him and I want him to love and trust me.
     
  10. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Aug 1, 2015
    I hear that! When we first started this journey, I actually considered putting my cat down because I didn't want him to suffer and be miserable every day with me stabbing him. That wasn't a quality of life that I felt good about. What I found though was that as time went on, we really bonded through all of the extra attention and care and he's so much sweeter and more connected than he ever was before all of this. I never would have imagined the bond we have now coming out of all of this. I really hope that turns out to be your experience too!

    Remember to have a good stock of low-carb treats - something that is just a freeze dried meat works great. And give lots of cuddles and head scratches. And let us know what issues arise. We all have different little tricks we've learned along the way to help make this work.
     
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  11. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 25, 2013
    It is tough! I think the suggestions others have given are great...have a designated "spot" for testing...wherever works best for you both. Make sure to ALWAYS give a treat! And if you try 3 times to get blood and aren't successful, try walking away for 5-10 min (still giving a treat!) and try again. That helps you both not be too stressed.

    I think a lot of it is mental attitude too...he'll be more stressed if you are (and I know that's tough to control!). I found it was best to just do it fast and firmly...even though I was stressed, the quicker it was over, the quicker Gypsy got her treat and got over it. Some people have found singing to their cat while they do it helps keep them both calm! Give it time and you'll both feel better about it. :bighug::bighug:

    We definitely can help you figure out a good dose and hopefully get things under control as you get more tests. :)
     
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  12. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

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    Jan 11, 2017
    I'm also a "single Mum" and about to start working a full time job! So you can definitely do this :). What Rachel said is very important and the idea behind the routines, is that they can help Butter's associate the experience with positive things. For singing, I've even heard humming can be better since it uses a different part of the brain :smuggrin:. I would focus on the TV, line up the poking device, focus on TV another couple seconds and then focus on poking him and getting blood drop. So I didn't build up too much anxiety. Luckily, Maury will watch TV sometimes when we're testing too :smuggrin:.

    Also, is he only getting 1 shot of 3.0U a day? I don't see any information in PM units cells.
     
  13. Cindy Lamy

    Cindy Lamy Member

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    May 29, 2017
    Thank you for noticing that I had the PM dose missing. Yes he is getting 3 units every 12 hours. I forgot to add that on my spreadsheet. I updated it now. I'm really doing my best to stay on top of this. I have taken so many suggestions regarding food & times to feed and times to shoot. The truth is I have no idea if the dose is correct, too little or too much. My vet started us on 2 units every 12 hours then he went up to 5 units every 12 hours. After joining groups and reading here I decided to lower it myself and do a curve and put my numbers in a spreadsheet. I'm hoping that someone can tell me if what I am doing is right. My husband keeps asking me why I keep testing if I am not changing the dose. He asked what it is I am looking for in the numbers to make me adjust. I had to be honest and just tell him I actually have no idea but there are a lot of kind and knowledgeable people on this site that I'm hoping will look at my spreadsheet and help me out. This morning I was able to test him by myself without help from a family member. I was so proud of us. Took a few pokes but we did it!! We have to take a trip soon for a few days and I am terrified to leave him. I have someone that will give him his shots but I am hoping to get a somewhat correct dose before I have to leave in October. Any help is GREATLY appreciated! Thanks! Cindy & Butter
     
  14. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Aug 1, 2015
    Cindy! Congratulations!!!! That's fantastic that you got a test by yourself!

    When is your test/feed/shoot time? And what time zone are you in?
     
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  15. Cindy Lamy

    Cindy Lamy Member

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    May 29, 2017
    I usually get up at 7:30 am to feed him. He gets 1/2 can of Fancy Feast Classics. Then I test at 10:30 am and feed the other half of the can right after that. While he is eating I give him his first dose of Prozinc 3 units.
     
  16. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 17, 2016
    Hurray for getting that test accomplished! :D How about leaving the dose as is for a couple of days and make a point of getting at least one test between +4 and +7 daily if you can as well as one before bed test. No need for a full curve. That data should be helpful in sorting out the dosing issue.
     
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  17. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Aug 1, 2015
    I agree with Kris, and especially if you could grab a +4 or +5 since you already have a +6 and +7, that would be great. My hunch is that you're ready for a little dose increase, but it would be great to get something from the earlier part of that range to be sure. So if you're on a 10:30 schedule, I imagine you go to sleep pretty soon after that at night?
     
  18. Cindy Lamy

    Cindy Lamy Member

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    May 29, 2017
    Oops and I am in Pacific Time (Las Vegas).
     
  19. Cindy Lamy

    Cindy Lamy Member

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    May 29, 2017
    Yes, usually about 11pm.
     
  20. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 25, 2013
    CONGRATS on that test! That first one by yourself is a huge milestone! :)

    Yep, I agree that leaving the dose as is for a few days and getting some extra tests in when you can would be good...and we will be happy to help you figure out what to do from there!
     
  21. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

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    Jan 11, 2017
    Great job, Cindy :). Not to be rude to your DH but tell him you are still testing because you do not want to blindly dose him. Like we want to ask some Vet's who don't recommend home testing, "Would you blindly give insulin to a human baby or toddler?" Probably not ;)
     
  22. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Well that's easy! I'm in Pacific time too! Although aways up north. There aren't too many of us over in the west. It can get a little quiet around here at night!

    @Yong, I think he was just asking what she was looking for in the numbers, not trying to get her to stop testing.

    Cindy, I'm wondering if it might work to get an early morning test once in awhile instead of a before bed test, since the shot time and your bedtime are so close together.
    If you got a test as soon as you got up, that would be +9, right? So if once in while you wake up earlier and could even grab a +7 or +8, that would be great.
     
  23. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

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    Yeah guess that is a possibility too. :)
     
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  24. Cindy Lamy

    Cindy Lamy Member

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    May 29, 2017
    Thanks so much! I am going to try to test early morning. Yes, my husband is very supportive and helps out with Butter when he can but he, like myself, still doesn't understand a lot. I read more and have joined these online support type groups. He's just wondering what everyone looks for to be able to determine the correct dose and when that is going to happen. We were testing him on 2 units, 3 units, 4 units and 5 units. The numbers were all similar. I explained about testing before shots and before eating and at the lowest point and a curve. Seems Butter does have a pattern. I just don't know what it means. Someone else on another support group told me that I should ask my vet to switch insulins to Lantus. Said it is a longer lasting insulin and maybe with Prozinc you should be doing shots every 8 hours.:( I'm doing my best but it is confusing. Seems like he is actually coming to me when I get out the syringes. Is that crazy? Does he know it makes him feel better? :joyful:
     
  25. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    There are different protocols for prozinc, and one of them involves shooting every 8 hours. It's just that most people have a hard enough time with FD, and having to be home constantly in order to shoot and monitor three cycles every day is just too much. Prozinc has good success with shooting on 12 hour cycles, and it's much more manageable.

    Lantus is a good insulin option, so if your prozinc starts to run out and you aren't seeing progress, you can always switch. And switch back if you don't like it. But I would give the prozinc a chance to do its thing first.

    You've done a great job getting some more data! Well done! I think at this point I would be comfortable suggesting a dose increase to 3.25u Do the increase on a morning cycle though so that you can monitor during the day, and make sure that you get at least one mid cycle test between +4 and +7. (if you can get two, even better!).

    The reason for suggesting a dose increase is that Butter's BG is going down during the cycle, but it's still not in healthy ranges. So we'll keep an eye on the numbers, and do some slow increases to try to bring that mid-point number down a bit more.

    And yes, kitties do seem to understand that the shots make them feel better. I think that's why they cooperate with this whole endeavor. It's great that Butter is starting to associate with that. Hopefully he'll have the same response to the tests soon!
     
  26. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 17, 2016
    I like Djamila's advice to increase a little to 3.25 u. Do the best you can to eyeball that dose. Being consistent with your eyeballed estimate is more important than being accurate.
     
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  27. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

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    Jan 11, 2017
    Fill a used syringe with coloured water to the 3.25U dose so you can compare it when drawing every day for consistency :)
     
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  28. Cindy Lamy

    Cindy Lamy Member

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    May 29, 2017
    I have increased Butter's dose. I am eyeballing it so it is in between 3.25 and 3.5. I'm doing my best but the numbers seems to be the same. Thoughts?
     
  29. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 17, 2016
    It's not unusual to see similar numbers until you hit a more effective dose. I think you can go up to 3.75 u tomorrow AM. Stay there for 2 days and then bump it up to 4.0 u if you don't see any blues. When you have a minute, could you please update your SS?
     
  30. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 25, 2013
    It does look like he's staying fairly consistent with the numbers. Sometimes kitties get "stuck" in their higher numbers and what you have to do is just keep increasing til you reach a breakthrough dose. I'm with Kris on this one...I'd increase tomorrow (just eyeball it the best you can). See what that gets you.

    And remember, this is a marathon, not a sprint. :)
     
  31. Cindy Lamy

    Cindy Lamy Member

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    May 29, 2017
    Okay thanks so much. I am going to increase this morning. What does update your SS mean? LOL!!
     
  32. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Your SS is missing PMPS and dose given for the PM the last couple of days.
     
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