Cat recently diagnosed with diabetes. First Post

This is my first visit and post to this site.
So please bear with me as I am completely unfamiliar with the site and its layout.
I am sure what I am about to post is going to be redundant and has been covered many times before.

So here is the background.
My cats about 13 years old.
About 6 months ago I took my cat (Kitty, Very creative I know. ;-) ) to the vet for a the annual rabies shot.
The cat weighed in at 17lbs. Def over weight. However no problems thus far.
We changed the foods to more weight sensitive varieties. So we thought.
About a month later we started to notice a slight drop in weight. I was away for about a month and when I came back I decided to weigh Kitty and he had lost 3lbs over 2 months. I thought that was good.
Shortly there after my better half comment that she thought she saw Kitty drinking more. Well it was summer and he was spending a lot of time out on the deck so I didnt think much of it.

About a month or so later I rescue a Main Coon Cat kitten from outside the local Moose. The thing is a little fireball.
So Kitty and Blue ( Dont ask) run and wrestle quite a bit.
I go away for another 2 months for work. In phone conversations I am told that Kitty has lost more weight. I am thinking the change in diet is and exercise is good for him.

About a week and a half ago I get back home. We had scheduled getting Blue spade. I take Blue in and mention the weight loss. They bring up diabetes.
In we go for blood work.
Cat weighs 11lbs. Which is about the correct weight for his size. I would suspect 10 is about perfect.
Test positive for diabetes.
He also had a gum infection so he is currently on antibiotics. The inflammation is decreasing nicely. I am planning on getting his teeth cleaned in about a week.

So here is what I have done.

I have jumped online and started researching and have come face to face with my ignorance on the subject of pet foods.
I am a quick study though.
I went on Catinfo.org and Janet & Binky's Cat Food Nutritional Information Page.
The later seem a bit dated and I have not been able to find any updated information on the nutrition break down. However its what I have to go with for the moment.

The vet prescribed 1 unit of Prozinc twice a day. The cats been on it for about a week and a half.
I dumped all our previous wet and dry food.
I switched to Fresh Pet select. Blue turned her nose up at it.

Monday I went in and had the glucose tested. The blood sugar had dropped from about 475 to about 250. I am assuming this is a good trend.
The vet wanted to up the dosage. I have decline as I explained I was switching the cats over to a low carb, high protein diet and did not want to add to many variables. The vet agreed.
Yesterday I picked up Innova Evo Cat and kitten. Both cats enjoy it.
I picked up a couple of cans of Merrick Cowboy Cookout. I was hoping to find Blue Buffalo Chicken Kitten entre'. No luck there.
I also picked up Catswell, Happy Hips as a treat. Have done no research on that though the ingredients looked pretty safe.

Now Kitty has always split his feeding between wet and dry and is not a big eater. He does seem to consume the best when he has a selection. He also has always consumed water while eating.
I am using portion control and have a scale for measuring.

Now at this point I probably enough knowledge at this point to be dangerous.
So here are some questions.

1. I have been reading that non peaking insulin such as Lantus and Levimer result in better blood sugar regulation over the course of the day and long term results. Should I look to switch to one of these after I finish the bottle of Prozinc?
2. I read on the Cornell website that you should put out half the daily food out at the time of the insulin shot and leave the rest out through the course of the day. Others recommend regimented feeding once ever 12 hours. I need some clarification on this. Which is better and is this a source of continual debate?
3. I have also been looking into NHV Mellit as a supplement to Kitties food. Does this product work? If so is it safe to use in conjunct with 1 unit of insulin???
4. I do have a budgetary limit on how much I can spend on foods. Since only Kitty likes the Fresh Pet and the Evo should go a long way I should have no problem maintaining the use of both products.
However is there a better combination of foods at a more economical price to be had?? I really want to stay away from food with rice, grains and byproducts.
I did notice some of the cheaper foods such as Sophisticat, Fancy Feast and Friske's have lines of food that are low in carbs. However the rest of the ingredients are a concern.
5. I am also researching grinding my own food and going to a raw diet for the cats some time in the near future. Is it worth the expense to purchase "Felines Pride Raw Made Easy Kits"?
6. What should I be looking for to increase the possibility of removing Kitty from insulin as soon as possible ???
7. Am I asking the correct questions??

As I stated earlier I am sure all of this has been covered before many times. So anything that can be done to point me in the right direction to get a handle on this would be much appreciated.

Thank you in advance.

Sev

 

Sev,

Welcome to you and Kitty! You certainly are a quick study ;-) ! You ask all the right questions. Unfortunately I'm a newbie and won't confuse you with the non-answers I could provide. But you are asking them in the right place! I'm sure someone will be along shortly who can help you. In the meanwhile, I just wanted to say welcome!

 

Thanks Linda.
Thats good to hear.

I am looking forward to getting the proper information I need to address my cats health.
Its the least I can do for him since he adopted me. :smile:

 

Welcome, Sev (and Kitty),
Great intro, lots of good information that you would have been asked about had you not posted it!

Let me try to answer at least some of your questions...

Possible, but way too early to worry about it. You've already seen a terrific reduction in BG just from the food change. You might not finish the bottle of Prozinc. Definitely a question you can put off for a while.

You are going to see this a lot here - ECID - Every Cat Is Different. What matters is what works for your cat. A newly dx'd diabetic cat will have a larger than normal appetite due to its condition. That will reduce itself as the condition improves. Human diabetics are told to space smaller meals out over the day and evening. Same seems to work for many kitties. The food raises blood glucose as it is digested. Feeding multiple small meals instead of just 2 a day spreads that "sugar boost" out more. You can sometimes manipulate the BG levels by altering the feedings schedule and food amounts. Many people here use feeding timers to allow cats to graze during the day. Others freeze food portions and put a food cube out when they leave, and kitty will eat it as it thaws.

I confess my ignorance. Someone else is most likely familiar and can tell you.

Whatever works to lower BG, as long as it is low-carb canned (7% or less is recommended), and works with your budget. I used strictly Fancy Feast classics with Bob and that worked well for him. I would say the majority of people here go with the lower cost grocery store brands, but lots of others use higher quality and cost brands too.

Not too many, but some people here feed raw or make-your-own, and they can give you recipes. Not familiar with the "easy kits" myself.

Three things.
1 - low carb not dry food - I think you're already there.
2 - a good insulin - Lantus, Levemir and Prozinc all work just fine. Bob was on PZI for 10 weeks or so, and went "off the juice" in July. Again, ECID. Kitties have gone into remission on all three types.
3 - home testing blood glucose levels daily. Have you read about doing that? Most everyone here does it. Testing before each and every shot, and at least once in between shots. It's the only way to determine how effective the insulin works, and allows you to adjust as needed rather than rely on tests at the vet's office periodically. If you home test, you won't ever have to bring him in for a BG test again. Save you time and money, saves him the stress of going to the vet (which makes his BG go up actually, so many tests taken at the vet are "stress boosted".

You are on a great starting dose, and glad you were able to talk to the vet about not wanting to increase yet.
Janet and Binky's lists are a little "old", but unless the ingredients and formulas for the foods have changed, they are okay to use.
Catinfo.org is a superb site, filled with great information. Dr. P occasionally posts here too. Someone who recently joined has had a couple of phone consults with her, and she's a great help.
Kitty's BG has been cut in half in just a couple weeks! Yes, I'd say that's a "good trend" for sure.

OK, I'll let someone else get a word or two in...

Welcome to the FDMB!
Carl in SC

 

Thanks Carl.

One other thing I should mention. On the canned food I am looking at I am trying to stay as close the Protien, Fat and carb ratio that of a mouse that has been posted on several sites.

One thing I did notice on the new feeding schedule of once ever 12 hours is that with the Fresh Pet alone Kitty ate very little and when he was done I put the food away.
Today I put out both the Fresh Pet and Evo out together at a reduced amounts and his appetite was much better. I have decided to leave the food out for the day as I have done in the past. The bowls are basically empty now so I will not be refilling them until about 6:30.

Now as far as the Evo goes. I see it recommended to remove all dry food. However the Evo comes in at 7% carbs which is well within the accepted range. Is there anything about the Evo ingredients that would cause the sugar levels to go up where the wet would not?

The cheaper canned foods now have me concerned about some of the additives. Ignorance is bliss until you shatter it.
The other thing is that my Coon Cat is only about 5 months old so I am thinking I should get her started out on the correct nutritional path while I am dealing with Kitty's diabetes.

I have glanced at the home testing and am considering it. 12 bucks to the vet for ever test once week can add up.
Suggestions on the most accurate testing equipment would be appreciated.

 

I used the Evo dry for awhile with my sugarcat Cassie, because he wouldn't eat wet food. It's one of your best bets for dry food; HOWEVER because it's dry it has a longer effect on blood sugar levels that a wet food of equivalent carb content. Cats have been known to drop 100 points overnight in blood sugar upon switching from dry to wet. I would recommend switching to all wet if possible.

RE hometesting: Any human glucometer will work. Many of us use the Relion Confirm or Micro from Walmart because the meter is cheap and (better) the strips are about the cheapest you can find (add in the fact that if you run out it's easy to pickup a new supply). Some people save money by ordering supplies online. Also, if you look at the top of the message board, there is a link for NEWBIE KITS. We have a member (Lori & Tom (GA)) who puts together kits of testing supplies (and cat toys) and ships them for free, asking only for money for shipping.

 

What was the diet food Kitty was eating?

I've seen many cats go on script dry diet food, become diabetic and then quickly go into remission once that is removed and a species appropriate diet is given.

If you can afford to keep feeding the new canned food you are feeding, that's great, or if it's easier, cut in some Friskies to help with costs, half Friskies canned half the good stuff. I feed Friskies or Fancy Feast because of costs, but I do sometimes add some Merrick's or Wellness, just a little in each bowl.

I feed my cats four times per day, what's left in the bowls stays out until it's done so essentially my diabetics are free fed. Four of my current diabetics are diet controlled, one does require insulin.

One of my closest friends who has several diabetics in remission and not, she feeds only twice per day, so you are probably right, this is something that is up to the individual.


The increased blood sugar Kitty had could have caused the mouth issues, unregulated diabetics tend to have sugar in their saliva and urine which leads to dental issues and urinary tract issues. Get the dental done when you can, continue with the ProZinc but hometest, feed the good food and I think you have a very good shot at having your cat go into remission.

Once a diabetic, always a diabetic. If Kitty does go into remission, you need to stick with the good foods, which is good for both of your cats by the way. You don't want to go back to dry because Kitty could become diabetic again.

 

A big reason to avoid dry - you wind up with a chronically dehydrated cat, as they don't drink enough water to compensate for the dry food. This puts a strain on the renal system - and if you've ever had a cat with renal disease, or kidney stones, or blockage from stones, you'll never want that to happen to any cat you have ever. Dr Pierson'a site (cat info) has a long discourse on why wet is better and dry should never be fed.

Anoteher note: many cats have an elevated glucose at the vet - as much as 100 points difference from home. Your home testing may show that as you become more experienced. Good that you didn't raise the insulin dose.

 

I dont think switching to all wet will be a problem as Kitty enjoys both. Since I am currently using the Fresh Pet I figured I would use about an oz of dry. I am watching which food he is going to and it appears the Fresh pet is his first choice. Which is good. Actually I am watching him as I type. He hasnt even touched the dry food this time.
I did a cold turkey transition last week. It didnt appear to effect him much. He did get sick the other day. However it appeared it was because he didnt chew the food.
I also have to keep the budget in mind. And I am now concerned about all the questionable byproduct and additives in the cheaper food.
Looks like Fresh Pet will win.

Now I did read the lable on Authority wet cat food. Its not quite the ratio I am looking for. However byproducts were further down the ingredient list.

I'll check out Lori & Tom.

 

It was Fancy Feast and Friskes wet. Both with gravy or sauce. Friskies indoor delight and or one of the Purina's. The carbs were in the high 30's for each. Seems like this was a bad bad combination.

 

My cat is a water drinker. Always has been even as a kitten.
When he eats he would go from bowl to water and back. Almost like watching a raccoon eat.

So if I had done the glucose test myself I might have dropped from 475 to 150???
Probably wishful thinking there. :smile:

 

Sev,
If you read Dr. Lisa's information, you'll throw that dry food out the back door and never think about buying any again. Bob, when uncontolled and pre-diagnosis, used to eat mostly dry carbage, and some wet gravy style. Bad diet all around. When dx'd, he was emptying his water bowl a couple times a day, and supplementing by getting in the sinks, tub, and even the toilet for more water.
Since I ditched the dry forever, and since he's been OTJ, he rarely even looks at the water bowl. I change it every other day, and most times, he hasn't touched it. He gets all the "water" he needs from his canned food.

http://catinfo.org/?link=felinediabetes

That's the page specific to diabetes, but there are links to other info that are full of "can't live without it" information.

Carl

 

The dry wet debate really doesn't even matter here, as many will agree with a diabetic kitty dry is like kryptonite to them, my Tilly was on it and omg her levels were through the roof i ditched the dry and suddenly they dropped don't get me wrong she is still unregulated and still gets high readings but not roof the roof like before.

 

That article is basically the first one I read.
I the transition I also wanted to make sure I was also switching over to quality ingredients as we. With 7 grams of carb and the protein fat ratio it seemed a good food to choose.

I probably will desist feeding kitty the dry. He seems to favor the FreshPet now.

However I may have a problem with FreshPet. He got sick again on it. In the past is was just a little of it. This with the water he drank he flush everything he ate out.
He is a trooper though. He went back to the bowl to get more.

Now it appears he is not chewing the food very much. However we have kept him from salmon as he seems to get sick on anything that has it. While Freshpet does not have salmon it does have white fish.
I am hoping its not the white fish but rather that he is consuming to much real meat to fast without actually chewing it.
Mind you this does not happen every time he eats.

Anybody have any ideas. Am I correct in my thinking?

 

I have one non-diabetic here that will do that, he was a previous feral and to this day acts like he doesn't expect food to arrive on a regular basis so he will scarf and barf. My solution was to feed him smaller portions more often....All my cats are fed 4 times a day, so the basically get Breakfast, Lunch and Dinner, with a bedtime snack.

Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang.

 

I am also looking for information on how to holistically treat the ailment.
I mentioned earlier that I was looking into NHV Millet.
Anybody have any experience with it?
Any other supplements that successfully regulate blood sugar? Or act as precursors that enhance blood sugar levels?

 

He ate less on the second sitting. No problem so far.
He didnt eat much of the dry. I cut that down to an 1 oz.

What I may have to do then is start with half the amount I am giving him and then when he is done add some more so he can snack throughout the day.
He def seems to be diving in for more of the Freshpet now than when I first set it out. He was only nibbling.

 

One thing to remember is insulin isn't a drug, it is a hormone, that under normal circumstances the body produces in response to eating. Insulin is what the body uses to process food correctly. In a diabetic the pancreas isn't producing enough of this hormone to properly ingest the food that is being eaten. Brewer's yeast has some benefical properties to help lower BGs in humans, but don't know of anything other than a low carb/high protein diet and insulin therapy that has been seen to work in felines...However, I'm not a vet and only know what has worked with my own two diabetics, one of which is already in remission for over a year now.

Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang

 

Understood.

However there are nutrients out there that do promote good organ function in humans. I would think that would hold true with felines.
Of course a proper diet in the first place goes a long way in stemming off illness down the road.

 

Has anyone mentioned Chromium?

I am not quite sure about the idea of not giving insulin; the cat needs it and will basically starve to death without it.
Short of a pancreas transplant, I am unable to see how anything holistic would replace the functions of the pancreas
I am betting if there was something, there would not be many or any beings taking insulin.

My cats have acromegaly, so their issue aren't about a faulty pancreas but rather excess growth hormone output.

 

The best thing you can do "holistically" is get them on a species appropriate diet! Ideally that would be mice and other small mammals and birds. If that's all we fed our cats, there would be no feline diabetes, except in the cases of acro or pancreatic injury.

Barring that, high quality canned foods like Dr. LIsa mentions are the closest we can get, but there are raw food vendors who provide supplemented raw foods which most cats will gobble up because unlike humans they know what's good for them. Check out http://www.FelinesPride.com

And this advice on an eHow page about holistically treating FD should be seriously heeded:

It should also be noted that many customer comments about the NHV Mellit product also mention changing the cat's diet! Lo and behold the cat "turned around." It seems coincidental to me that people think the product is what helped their cat.

 

I meant to help regulate the blood sugar like insulin does. Especially if and when the cat goes into remission.

 

Please do not add chromium, it is not good for cats. Chromium and vanadium got a lot of attention a few years ago, as did cinnamon. Please do NOT use any of those three.

We've had one or two people talk about Mellit but it has gotten absolutely no traction here. Given that we are such a big group and have a variety of experience, to me that says that it isn't of much help. I haven't seen anything bad about it though so you can always consider it in a complementary way. Anything that properly supports a cat's overall health should help, but I always caution people to be careful and not look at supplements just because they work for people, as some supplements that work for people are toxic for cats.

 

Basically what does that if and when a cat goes into remission is a species appropriate diet...i.e. High Protein and low carbs...ideally mice, birds, lizards etc, but as housecats the closest we humans can get to feeding that kind of diet is either pate style canned or raw diets. As well as a diet that is as low as possible in grains, since in the wild the only way a cat will be eating grains is if they are first processed through the bodies of said mice and birds. My guy that has been in remission for a year as of November 1st of this year, eats nothing but Friskies and Fancy Feast pate style canned food, his blood sugar has remained right there will all eleven of my non-diabetics. My non-diabetics eat the same diet and in the year that they have been on it their overall health has also greatly improved.

Nothing is going to replace the body's use of the hormone insulin, insulin bonds to the metabolized food so that the body cells can absorb the nutrients in that food. If the pnacreas is not functioning and producing insulin then the cells of the body can't reap the rewards of the food ingested. So either insulin needs to be produced by the pancreas itself, or it needs to be given from an external source.

Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang

 

The Natural Pet Store locally carries Primal in 4lb bags
They currently dont carry the chubs.
How is this product?

http://www.primalpetfoods.com/product/l ... /a/f/p/all

The chicken bangs in at 25.00
The beef bangs in at 28.00

Its supposedly 4 1 oz pellets per feeding.
Even if I reduced it to 2 pellets a feeding that only gives me 16 days.
Best I could do is one 2 pellet feeding in the morning and supplement with Freshpet or a good canned food.
I have budgetary restrictions on how much I can spend per month.

I have heard you can buy frozen mice.
I def am not going through the live mice with cats. It was fine with my boa years ago.

Sooooooooo. Is anybody selling fresh mice meat????????????

 

Yes they have whole mice here https://www.hare-today.com/index.php?cPath=23_47&osCsid=9d4be3c1999ab85ba9b4d9f334398636 However, in my case with 13 cats to feed they are just a little too pricey for my wallet

Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang

 

I'm late to the conversation, but I wanted to post this current list of nutritional information of cat foods without byproducts:https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B8...MzhkYTkxOGM4NThk&sort=name&layout=list&num=50. Wellness and EVO come in large 13 oz cans, which make buying these foods more economical (I feed Merrick's now which only come in 5.5 oz cans, but when I feed Wellness and EVO it was actually cheaper than Fancy Feast if I bought it in the big cans). You just refrigerate them with a can cover, and heat it up in the microwave for a few seconds at feeding time. Also, if you have a locally owned, independent pet food store in your town, these foods are usually far cheaper there than at the chain stores. Merrick's is $1.40 something for a 5.5 oz can at PetCo, but only $1.16 a can at my local feed store if I buy 24 at a time. That's about the same price as Fancy Feast. Wellness, EVO, and Merrick's all have store finders on their websites, so you can call around and price compare, and make sure you ask if they have case (24 can) deals.

Because your cats are on the senior side, you'll also want to keep an eye out for phosphorus content (try and stay under or around 250 mg/100 kcal). Foods high in phosphorus like EVO 95% venison are hard on the kidneys and it's always a good idea to stave off kidney disease in senior cats.

As for the EVO dry, if you can ditch it, please do so. As others have mentioned, even if your cat drinks a lot it is never enough to compensate for the loss of moisture in their food, and they will still be chronically dehydrated. My Bandit never even touches his water dish unless his diabetes is out of control. He's in remission now. Also, many diabetic cats cannot tolerate the carbs from dry food, even if it is lower carb like EVO. Bandit was eating a grain-free, low carb dry food in conjunction with grain-free Wellness canned for about a year before his diagnosis, and if he eats low carb dry food his blood glucose will still shoot up into the 200s. Even though the food is low carb/grain free, it still needs to use something as a binder to hold the dry food together. Most of the grain-free dry foods use potatoes--which has a high glycemic index.

If the convenience is an issue, you can freeze portions of canned food and leave them out, or get an auto feeder to release it a certain time like this feeder that I own. If you have multiple cats, you'll want to get one for each cat so that you can feed them both at the same time (otherwise one cat will likely eat both food portions). I feed Bandit 4 times a day (every 6 hours), and when I'm at work or sleeping I set the feeder for him. It's best to feed diabetics in smaller, more frequent amounts. Also, Bandit gobbles his food so fast I can't feed him more than 2 oz at a time or he'll puke it up.

As for insulin, you're already using PZI so I would stick with it until it's gone. About 50% of cats go into remission on that insulin, so you have a good shot at it. Lantus and Levemir have a higher remission rate (80+%), it wouldn't be a bad idea to switch if your cat isn't in remission by the time it's gone.

One last thing--do you know why your cat's gums were inflamed? Usually this is caused either by gingivitis or by tooth resorption. Both conditions require a cleaning and/or extractions to solve the underlying problem, so make sure you get his teeth cleaned and have all offending teeth with cavities/resorptive roots extracted. Bandit has a chronic tooth resorption problem (He's had to have all of his teeth pulled except for 2 in the past 3 years), and I was not able to get him regulated until after his dental. Tooth resorption is a common problem in certain breeds of cats, and the only treatment is to remove the offending teeth--you don't mention what breed Kitty is but some breeds are predisposed to FORLs (like Siamese).

 

just a note about byproducts...they aren't all bad, and byproducts do not include beaks and feathers and all that, they include organs which are an important part of the diet....now, I'm sure the source quality varies from product to product, but I personally do not see the need to totally exclude byproducts.

 

Foods with byproducts are usually higher in ash content and phosphorus. While this isn't a problem for a younger cat, foods without byproducts are easier on the kidneys, and it's very important to maintain kidney health in senior cats considering the prevalence of renal disease.

That said, you must do the best with what you can afford.

 

I dont know about that.
I know darn well the cats wont be staying at the bowl eating those.
I can picture it know. Cats on the couch. Chomping on mice.
Thanks though.

 

Actually Kitty is a senior and Blue is a kitten. Blue will be fed the Evo dry until it runs out.


Nice update. Good info on the insulin as well.
Thank you!!

Damn Freshpet has 17carbs!!! The plain chicken recipe is not included though.
Might have to dump it.

Looks like Blue Buffalo Wilderness, Evo natural, Felines Pride, Merrick Before Grain, Natures Variety and Trilogy Instinctive choice (Which I can find) and Wellness Core are the ones to stick with in the new list.

The Wellness 12oz by me is 2.49 a can. Thats .2075 per oz.That works out to be a 1.14 for a 5.5 oz.
The 5.5 oz cans are 1.69 a can. Thats .338 per oz
If I have done the math correctly that is a 61% savings.

The Natural Pet Store gives 5% discount on 1 case and 10% discount on 2 case purchases.
However the large cans are not available for everything.

Not sure why there was an infection. However the antibiotics seem to have taken care of it. I do plan on getting Kitty's teeth cleaned after Thanksgiving.
The pet took look at the teeth and said they looked good but that they would be able to tell better after the cleaning.

 

Sev
Is there a Petsmart anywhere close to where you live? Some of those brands are sold there. The cool thing I've found about Petsmart is that the prices on what I buy (just FF and Friskees) aren't higher than the grocery store prices. And once I started buying the food there, they repeatedly send me coupons for "that" brand in the mail. Every little bit of savings helps....

Carl

 

Yup. There is one in town. I even have the Petsmart card.

I found Blue Buffalo Wilderness, Innova (No Evo wet), Royal Cannin, Wellness and Authority.
I am curious about Authority. It looks good and is inexpensive. It has no byproducts.
Here is the beef brand.
Brewers rice??? I assume that is bad???

Ingredients

Beef Broth, Animal Liver, Beef, Chicken, Ocean Fish, Brewers Rice, Dried Egg Product, Guar Gum, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Tricalcium Phosphate, Brewers Dried Yeast, Vitamins (Vitamin E, A, D3, B12 Supplements, Thiamine Mononitrate, Niacin, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Folic Acid, Biotin), Minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Proteinate, Manganous Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Sodium Selenite), Choline Chloride, Taurine.

Guaranteed Analysis

Crude Protein (min) 10.0%
Crude Fat (min) 6.5%
Crude Fiber (max) 0.8%
Moisture (max) 78.0% Ash (max) 2.2%
Magnesium (max) 0.025%
Taurine (min) 0.07%.

 

Authority beef is listed at 8% carbs, so not bad. The chicken is listed at 6% and the turkey/giblets at 7%, so all three are good from a carb standpoint.

Carl

 

True.
However what about from a quality standpoint??
Could this product be considered the top end of the lower end cat foods??

 

Ingredients aren't too bad quality wise, but it does contain dried egg, which wouldn't fly here as I have a couple of cats that are allergic to eggs, also it does still contain grains which another one of my cats will literally claw his face apart if he eats anything containing grains.

With that said and every cat is different so what some may be allergic to others will do fine on. But before buying case or two of any food, find out if your cats will eat it! I know I personally tried a lot of the high quality canned foods on my furry herd and they turned their noses up at all of it, yet will coming screaming the moment I open a can of Friskies or Fancy Feast. Regardless of how good or how 'cheap' the ingredients it isn't going to help if the cat won't touch it.

Mel, Maxwell, Musette and The Fur Gang

 

I can tell you from experience that even though antibiotics will help temporarily, the infection will keep recurring if the root problem isn't taken care of--but it sounds to me like it's gingivitis and the dental should solve the problem. I had one cat with gingivitis and one cat with tooth resorption, and you could tell the difference just by looking at it. After the dental, you should consider regularly brushing Kitty's teeth! It'll help prevent gingivitis problems.

While Fancy Feast and Friskies are the same price as the grocery store, the higher end foods are far more expensive at PetSmart than at my local feed store, plus they don't sell any premium foods in large cans. PetCo has the big cans of Wellness, but they still mark up the price quite a bit. But all three brands have store finder links on their web sites, so you can just call to find the cheapest place near you.

I know the 13oz cans of EVO, EVO 95% Turkey & chicken, and EVO 95% Beef were only 1.79 at my local feed store, and you got a 10% discount if you bought 24 at a time. Maybe that's an economical option, especially if your local feed store has the 5%/10% discounts as well?

Here's the EVO store finder: http://wtb.naturapet.com/?new=true

 

I am not sure re: quality. But just looking at the ingredients, it goes liver, beef, chicken, fish. Just like on "human" cans, I believe the ingredient list runs from "most" to "least" in terms of how much is in there.
So most would be liver? If you go to the grocery store, meat section, what would the cheapest be? I think liver, but I don't know because I would eat my left arm before I ever ate liver.
One thing I have noticed with liver in cat food. I was sent home with a case of Hill's m/d cans when Bob was dx'd. Because he was literally starving, he wolfed it down. For 3 days. Then he refused to eat it. Now cat food doesn't smell yummy to begin with, but I couldn't imagine sticking my face in THAT food and trying to manage getting or keeping any down. It was THE stinkiest food I'd ever served him. I read here afterwards that it is common for kitty to get burned out very quickly on "liver". I ended up returning the rest of the case for a refund thankfully.

Ultimately, what it comes down to with a diabetic cat is that they MUST eat. No matter how high or low quality the ingredients, they MUST eat well in order to be kept on a steady routine of insulin. I think what it comes down to is that you will need to buy multiple brands and levels of quality, and find a few low carb options that he will eat without a problem.

Carl

 

I also want to add that you don't have to feed both cats the same food--so you could feed Blue a lower end grain free food since phosphorus isn't really a huge concern at that age, and Kitty a higher end, low phos food and save money that way. I did that for a while with Bandit and my 16 year old Gabby, when Gabby would only eat really expensive foods that ate up my cat food budget. Like Jen said, byproducts really aren't all that bad except in terms of phosphorus, and some of the lower-end grain free foods actually have a better protein/fat ratio than the premium foods because they contain far less fat, which is good for a growing kitten.

 

@ MommofMouse.
I was looking at that. I was looking at the grains.
Kitty has no allergies that I know of.

@ Julia and Bandit.
I am hoping it is only gingivitis. All his teeth are pretty with considering his age.
I'll keep looking at the foods then. I read a few things where it seemed the by products at the front of the ingrediants should be avoided as they would not pass the human consumption sniff test.
For now Blue has a 6lb bag of Innova Evo to work her way through. If the Authority passes somebodies sniff test then I may supplement her with that.
I'll take a second look at Fiskies. There are a lot of low carb ones there. However I do have to avoid salmon. Also many of then are fish and there are mercury levels to take into consideration.

I noticed a lot of 3 oz cans at Petsmart.
Blue Buffalo was running 1.39 for a 5.5 oz and 1.09 with the card.
Wellness was 1.69 for a 5.5
Authority .79 a 6 oz.

@ CarlinSC
I'll check the other varieties in Authority and what the ingredient list is.



Well the good new is Kitty burried his face in his first experience with Merrick's Cowboy Cookout. :smile:

Another question on the wet cat foods.
Where should I actually draw the line on the protein and fat percentages? I see a lot of low carbs. However I also see a lot of 50% or more fat.

 

Somebody asked what the species of Kitty is.
I have no idea.
He is a solid pewter gray short hair with very mild darker gray rings on his tail .
I guess you could call him a Tabby.

 

Consider the mouse.......what was that ratio you found?

Carl

 

Here is a good list. It probably been posted before.

http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp

Not sure which to choose from. Protein is +60% on some.

 

First, something from Dr. Lisa's page about the earlier discussion about "liver":

So I guess we should stay away from food where "liver" is listed first in the list of ingredients.

Here's a page that explains protein and fat better than I can. Cats need both, but the most important thing isn't necessarily the percentage of each, but the sources of each. For example, cats need the source of the protein to be from meat rather than plants, even though lots of plants can provide protein. The source determines how much of the protein and fat are digestible in a cat's body.
http://maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm

Roughly, I'd say the protein should be over 50% and the fat less than 50%. Fat is important to, as a source of energy.
I was hoping to find something that said "the perfect ratio is" like 60/35/5, but can't find it....
Carl

 

Carl, this is from Dr Lisa's site (and I note that Boo's super-duper-ultra new fav is Cowboy Cookout - yaaay Boo!)

------------------

Cats are designed to eat a high protein (~50% of calories, or more), moderate fat (~40% of calories or less), and very low carbohydrate (well below 10% of calories) diet.

Unfortunately, this fact is at odds with the issue of profit margin given that carbohydrate and fat sources are cheaper than animal-based protein sources.

So what does all of this mean with respect to our choices of canned food?

Let me use Merrick Cowboy Cookout as an example. Note on Janet and Binky's chart that its ME breakdown is as follows:
Protein calories = 52%
Fat calories = 42%
Carbohydrate calories = 5%

This profile is very close to what would be found in a cat's natural prey such as a mouse. A cat's natural prey is approximately:
Protein calories = 50 - 70%
Fat calories = 10 - 30%
Carbohydrate calories = <5%

 

You can analyze the food to death, but if the cat won't eat it, it really doesn't matter how good its supposed to be. I have 1 in the house who vomits anything with texture and another who vomits higher fat levels ... so out goes Grammy's Pot Pie and Evo Cat and Kitten.

I put Binky's Page into a spreadsheet, then cleaned it up so I could sort it by descending protein and fat, and ascending carb levels. What I observed is that many of the canned turkey in the 'affordable' range (I'm feeding 14) were somewhat balanced between protein and fat, plus low carb, if no gravy was involved.

Initially, I was feeding Special Kitty Turkey & Giblets dinner, then they changed the formula to include soy, which may have some hormone-like effects on cats. I switched to Sophisticat Turkey and Giblets and everyone eats it, though not with much gusto. When I add some Fancy Feast or Purina Pro Plan Turkey versions, Spitzer's carb levels go up because he eats more and it is slight higher carb. He desparately needs to put on weight - he should be 11 pounds and he is barely over 7 pounds.

 

Thats what I was thinking. However based on the updated canned foods list provided by Julia & Bandit, https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B8Uu8g ... ist&num=50, those with protein are limited and many include seafood.
Merrick is the only one canned food that consistently has values in the 40, 50 and 60% level for Protein. Cowboy Cookout looks like it is the perfect ratio. 53,42,5.
The Before Grain Turkey is 65,34,1
Blue buffalo's Chicken Hairbal Entree and Chicken Kitten Entre' are 40 and 43 respectively.
On the old list.

Friskies has a few that have carbs lower then 9 with protein above the 40%. All have Tuna or some sort of fish. Phosphates in 1 spike to 500.
Same in 9 lives. Phosphates also spike in those. Many at the 300-400 level.
Petsmarts brand Sophisticat has a bunch with protein in the 40% range and the Sophisticat pouches look very promising. Especially since almost all of them have 0-2 carbs. However there is the question of quality where as Petsmarts brand is concerned and phosphate levels in the 300's.
Walmarts Special Kitty has some. However that probably wont happen. I assume its from China.
Triumph pouches are almost all high 40's on protein. Again Phosphates in the 300's except for mixed grill.

 

Luckily I just started Kitty on Cowboy Cookout. I thought he would bore through the bottom of the bowl.

 

Funny I was trying to figure out how to do that very thing.
Any chance of posting up the spread sheet???

 

Being something of a geek, I put some of Binky's pages, plus some other info on separate pages, into an Excel spread sheet. I did try to keep the source indicated, so that credit goes where it is due!

So, as requested, see if you find this helpful.

 

p.s. method used to put Binky's page into this spreadsheet
1) downloaded the html page as an mht (single file)
2) start Excel and open the mht file (there's a drop down which says what kinds of files to display for Excel to open)
3) un-merge any and all cells that are merged, because they can't be sorted
4) put all info for 1 product on 1 line
5) clear out unneeded blank lines
6) set headers to the table
7) sort by any order you want
8) add in any other math you want - like calories per ounce (I didn't find calories per container helpful with the container sizes varying, plus some were stated as grams

 

Geeks rule!!
Thank you. This will help me a lot in sorting out the foods.
I currently have stacks of paper I am shuffling though.

Sev<--Semi geek himself.

 

I am using Open Office.
Now I just need to figure out how I can change which is ascending and descending.
I would like to get the protein in descending order. Of course I have only looked at the file in read only at the moment.

 

Sev,

We can debate food choices until we are all blue in the face, everyone has their personal preferences, and what their own personal budgets and their cat's particular likes and dislikes. So it really comes down to finding something that A) Your cat will eat, B) That fits into you budget and C) that is under 10% calories from Carbs for your diabetic.

But there is WAY more to dancing with a sugarcat than just diet.

You have already been started on a good insulin and at a good starting dose.

The third key to this whole process is test blood sugar levels at home to know if Kitty is receiving enough or not enough insulin. This is purely my own point of view but I would stop over analyizing your cat's menu and pick something he likes, that is under 10% carbs, and fits within your budget to feed both cats. And start considering getting a meter and start testing him at home so you can start heading him in the right direction towards hopefully remission. Especially while you are doing a diet change and eliminating the dry out of his diet and finding that perfect food. Since food can and does have a major role in the way their bodies respond to insulin therapy I would want to be watching for trends in his readings as well as collecting data on how he is responding. It is also the single best way of making sure he is safe while on insulin. I would also want to be testing his urine for ketones, as these can lead to a potential fatal condition known as DKA.

If you are hoping for remission in Kitty then you need to have all three elements in place, diet, insulin and home testing. Also we can't help guide you on adjusting and tweaking Kitty's numbers to give him the best possible shot at remission until you start gathering data on his blood sugar reading to share with us. I know first hand since I adopted both of my sugarcats as diabetics that had I know been testing at home I could have very well seriously injured or even killed my Maxwell, because he so quickly went off insulin and we had no history together for me to be able to pick up the subtle personality changes that would have told me hypo was coming on. The same can be said for my Musette, I have on a couple of ocassion only been able to intervene it was could have become a serious hypo situation because I was monitoring her at home, because a couple of times she has taken a seriously low dip into the low 40s and even 30s with no outward signs of hypo.

Diet can always be tweaked as you go along, because every cat is different, what may work for one will not always work for another. I have a very delicate balancing act that I play here with feeding 13 cats, which include one diabetic in remission, one currently insulin dependent diabetic, one non-diabetic that is highly sensitive to anything with grains, 2 that are allergic to chicken, 1 allergic to eggs, and yet another one that is allergic to beef. Even among my two diabetic, one can easily eat things as high as 7-9% carbs and not spike in BGs, while the other one if she gets over 6% carbs will dramatically rise in readings. I am also feeding cats ranging in age from 18 months to 15 years old. I'm also a full time college student, wife, mother and grandmother, and thus we are working on my husband's single income at present so for us it came down to what they would eat that was within our budget that would work for all the various health concerns.

As far as quality of ingredients since many of my cats are former ferals and ex-barn cats...I'm pretty sure they never asked the mouse or sparrow they had in the wild to produce a USDA certification before comsuming it for dinner, and they certainly didn't mind eating said mouse or sparrow's "by products" in fact I have seen them on several ocassions leave nothing but the tail behind when having a rodent appetizer. At least for myself, I try to remember that these are cats, and in being so the only real difference between them and their distant cousins the lion and tiger is size. They are still very much one of the ultimate predators and obligated carnivors as well as skilled hunters and killers. Humans are about the only mammal on the planet that worries about the makeup of their diet, we as humans tend to over think everything.

Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang

 

Nothing to disagree with here at all.

I am going to see if I can get a copy of the original blood work on Kitty. I think that would also help with the over all data collection.
As I said earlier this is uncharted territory for me. I have been known to be a bit anal when it comes to details. Its been commented that I am the only contractor that treats building a deck or addition as if I am building a grandfather clock.
Have no fear I will over analyze. However that will not interfere with me from weeding out foods rapidly once I get familiar with their ingredients and nutritional value. Expensive dose not necessarily mean good and the opposite is true as well.

Now just wait till I start selecting a testing kit.
I am a tool guy and I believe in investing in good equipment.

However as the discussion moves forward I am formulating more questions. :smile:

 

Go to the Data menu, select Sort, then you have the option to sort each column in ascending or descending.

 

AH ha!
Excellent!!

 

Lol
Ok, sev. Going forwrd, when we think you are over analyzing, we will say "Sev, it's a deck, not a grandfather clock!"
Carl

 

Yah yah.
Its not stopped me yet. My attention to detail has gotten me a lot jobs over the years.

So I believe I have some good news.
Today I noticed a marked difference in the amount of water Kitty is drinking. It appeared to have changed a noticeably yesterday. I was not sure though.

Also on the FreshPet I am only giving 1oz at a time so that should be the equivalent 4.6 carb.
I am also only giving about 1/3 of a can of Cowboy Cookout at a time. Which should be 1.6 carb.
I am leaving an additional 1/2 oz of Freshpet out for snacking during the day. which should be 2.3 carb.
For a total 8.5 carbs through out the day.
Night time feeding is 1 oz of FreshPet and 1/3 can Cowboy which is another 5.9 carbs.
Total for the day 14.4 carbs.
Is this an acceptable total?

Mind you kitty has never been a big eater. Between refills there is a little FreshPet left in the bowl. So I know he is not starving.
He is ignoring the dry.

 

We haven't been totalling the number of carbohydrate grams in a day - we just feed them enough ounces (or grams) that should sustain the cat. More is given when unregulated because the cat can't use it and feels hungry. More may be given for an underweight cat.

 

I would have thought carb counting combined with the proper amount of food per feeding would be a priority.

 

Nope - its hard enough to get owners to change food, much less do home testing. If they had to keep track of kitty's carbs, more would just euthanize.

That being said, it is probably better to do that ... if you are on an insulin that can be flexibly dosed (and you are). It isn't useful for Lantus and Levemir, as doses are adjusted based on the nadir, not on food spikes.

 

Well I am approaching this as an Atkins diet for Kitty. Know your foods. Know your carbs. Adjust your foods and quantity based on the total carb intake.

 

Where/how are you getting these numbers? Are they based on "as fed" values?

Just a word of caution. As long as the dry food is available, it's a bad idea. One day, he'll decide he's hungry enough to eat it, and BAM, just like that, his BG will skyrocket. We have seen kitties that are in remission somehow find the secret stash of dry food in the panty (inside of tupperware containers), and the next day, they end up needing insulin again. We've had a kitty who was so addicted to carbs that he started eating corn-based cat litter. Took the poor lady forever to figure out why his numbers were all of a sudden off the charts. "World's Best Cat Litter" was the culprit. There is a really good reason why we refer to dry cat food here as "Kitty Krack". Cats will do ANYTHING to get a fix of dry food when you least expect it. It takes quite a while for them to come out of "rehab" once they do too.

Carl


Carl

 

my FD Tilly unregulated but we woke up one morning to find bread bags opened and eaten she would get into to anything she just 'thought' were carbs so i would be careful with ignoring the dry i end somedays they are ok and then one day they go carb nuts

 

This was posted on page one by Jullia&Bandit.
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B8Uu8g ... ist&num=50

Actually I am off by 2.12 carbs. The Freshpet that is listed is 17 carbs not 14. I am using 1/3 of the amount recommended for feeding.
Let me know if my assumptions are correct.

As fed says 3%

 

A question on the "As Fed".
What % should be used as a good/bad threshold?
Merrick for instance has most of there's well below 2% with many being below 1%.

 

sorry, late to this discussion. for %, are you asking % of calories from carbs? if so, 5-7% is considered optimal but .....

 

On the FreshPet Select, which I am trying to decide to keep or trash,
the %Kcal from carbs is 17% and the %Carbs as fed is 3.00%.

I have reduced the recommended feeding amount by 2/3's. So the reduction in percentage should be linear.

Darn just noticed the Freshpet that is on the chart is for their canned not the pouches of meat.

However the guaranteed analysis looks a lot better.

Now where was that carb calculator I saw????

 

wow, you really ARE analytical aren't you? @-)

Just a caution....you may see some benefits from all your hard work...but these are cats, and I've found that a person can drive themselves crazy analyzing things and meanwhile the cat isn't really interested in behaving as predicted... there are many factors that cannot be managed or accounted for in this process.

 

Oh I know.
My main concern is switching both cats to a healthy diet that stays within what is considered good nutritional boundaries.
I dont mind having to buy multiple brands of food to achieve this. Or having both cats on completely different brands.
I may need to call fresh pet and get the nutritional break down. The kitten wont touch that and if it is carb safe that works in my favor.
I would like to find a food for the kitten that Kitty turns his nose up at as well.
That may be a pipe dream though. :smile:

 

Sev,
On the index page there's a sticky thread titled "calculating food carb %" that might help you out.
Carl

 

I saw that.
I believe Dr. Piersons site has a calculator as well.

 

I found this as well.

http://www.scheyderweb.com/cats/catfood.html
It says 6.95%
Not sure if its accurate though.

 

I ran the numbers off the label on Cowboy Cookout and it came within .67 of what is on the charts.

Blue Buffalo Wilderness Kitten came in at .9% carbs. Thats interesting.

 

Sev,
time for this.
"It's not a grandfather clock".

The research you are doing is terrific, really. But there's an underlying possible flaw to your theory. All this work assumes that you will be able to precisely control his food intake. I know you said you have scales and portion sizes. But the only way you can get "in" what you want is to either limit his food to only "so much" per day, or, force him to eat what you put out. Neither of those options is really an option with a diabetic cat, at least not this early in the game.

He's going to need more food than you think he is daily. As long as his blood glucose is not "normal", he can't metabolize food "normally". You give him 100 calories, he doesn't get "100 calories" worth of nutrition. His body is all wonky inside right now. He's going to have to eat more than 100 calories to get the nutritional benefit of 100 calories. How much more? Absolutely no way of telling. Some days, he's going to look at the food bowl, then look at you like you've grown horns, and say "you actually want me to eat this? I feel like crap today, I ain't eating it. Where's the dry?" You'll put "x" grams of protein in, and he won't get "x" amount of protein from it. He just needs food. As long as you keep to some canned food that is low in carbs, he'll be better off. He's not going to be 50% better on 2% carbs than he would be on 4% carbs. He'll just be 100% better on low carbs.

This isn't like weight watchers or jenny craig. You might be able to put "numbers and values" to every menu choice, but he's a cat. He's going to do what he wants, eat what he feels like eating, and really couldn't care less how many "points" he's used up that day. Your work is not a total waste of time. I just think it's costing you more than it's worth at this point. This could be a "Think Tank" thread.

There are a couple of really important things we'd like to know, beyond food questions:

How is Kitty doing? Nobody is really talking about him?
Have you given more thought to home testing? Are you "in" with that yet?
It's been three days since you first posted, but none of really know how Kitty is doing.
Any better, worse, or about the same?
You should probably start a new thread if you post information on Kitty, because once threads get 80 posts long, people tend to skip over them if they haven't been reading all along since it takes way too long to catch up. We can continue this one just relating to "food", but how about another one just about Kitty and his current outlook on life?

Carl

 

Oh I here ya.
I am not going to regiment to food to much. The best I can do is 3 feedings a day if I am out as my better half come home from work. So she could give a small portion to get both cats by till the evening feeding. If I am out on a job site I could be there into the evening.
Or and most likely I will figure out the total amount of carbs on the foods I settle on and then put 2/3's of the daily amount out. Kitty is a snacker and has never had a voracious appetite.
I understand what your saying on him feeling 100% better on a low carb diet. However If I can determine the lowest carb combination that still maintains a quality diet then I can put out more food without fear of him being over carb'd or under fed during the course of a day.
Now I do have a timer bowl and could pick up another. So that is an option if strict regimentation is required.
I just want to make sure what I do is effective.

Which reminds me.
If a mouse is about 5 carbs. How many mice would your average feline require on a daily basis to meet its nutritional needs??
Knowing this would give a good indication of where I should draw the line on carbs per day. This will also allow me to fine tune which foods will be on the menu. Within budgetary constrains of course.

Home testing is on the burner. I have not started a thread on that or done a search on the site as of yet.

Kitting seems to be doing well. He is bright eyed and bushy tailed and drinking far less water. Wrestling and running with the kitten.
He goes to the vet tomorrow for another blood test. I'll give an update in the morning on what is found.

 

i sympathise with you as what works with one may not work with another! All i do know is how hungry they are at the beginning so maybe you could get the automatic feeder to activate every hour or two. My Tilly is not regulated yet mostly due to bad insulin but she is hungry every hour. So maybe that will help there are loads of wet foods though good for low carb but a lot of diabetic cats until regulated just can't deal with high carb it send the BG through the roof.

I have got mine on Purina MD which works well its pate and she actually likes it such a bonus also botiza is good

 

I just tried Blue Buffalo Kitten. It appears to be a no go. However the Kitten has no objections. :smile:

Opened a can of Cowboy Cookout. No problem.

 

thats good! its funny isn't it they are so picky we tried Hills that was a big NO go for her so luckily I'm glad she has settled on the purina but she is constantly needing it especially as before she came to me as a foster cat she had been on high carb food and had lost nearly all her weight poor thing so I'm hoping once the insulin starts working she will gain weight. I do find though as i have other cats too if they have biscuits she will charge at them and push over anyone in her way :lol: so i have a routine of separation :lol:

Is your little one underweight or over

 

The little one is very sleek.
Giving that one antibiotics and steroids at the moment for suture problems from being fixed.

 

That depends on two things:
1 - how much does Kitty weigh, or better yet, what would his ideal body weight be?
2 - how many calories are in the average mouse, assuming the entire mouse is eaten?

Carl

 

Kitty's Ideal weight is probably 10lbs.
He still has a little extra on him but he looks really good.
He is actually doing more leaping.

One thing I also noticed and I cant say when, is that he lost interest in his toys. I am watching to see if and when his behavior includes playing with them again.

 

Today so far.

Coffee perked. Check.
Fed cats. Check
Insulin shot Check.

Looks good doesnt it?
But wait.

Couldnt find carrier box.
Blue escapes to deck.
Run laps around deck in an attempt to capture The Flash in cat form.
Find carrier box.
Stuff Kitty in box.
Run out to van. Side door is open. Batteries dead.
Run back in house cat carrier in hand.
Step on Blues tail. Received unhappy vocal response.
Let cat out of carrier.
Reschedule trip to vets.

Trapped at home.

And people wonder why I drink. :shock: :smile:

 

:lol: drink and smoke wow its stressful isn't it
I have had to feed tilly 4 times already that girl can eat if only she could put the weight on

 

Hopefully things are smoother tomorrow. :roll:

 

its one of those things i think tomorrow can only get better

 

Ok.
Time for the redo.
9:00 AM we he to the vet.

 

On the canned cat food.
Both cats appear to enjoy the Wellness Chicken and Herring. Going to try them on the chicken formula and turkey formula next.
If they stay with it the 12.5 oz cans will run me about 18 cents an oz if I buy by 2 cases at a time. That works out to about 54 cents for a 3 oz. That's pretty economical.

 

Sounds good! Keep in mind that the Wellness is higher in calories than something like Fancy Feast, so you will want to feed less of it. To give an example, Bandit maintained the same weight on 6oz of EVO (about the same caloric content as Wellness) as he did on 7.5oz of Fancy Feast.

 

Managing the proper amounts of food is something I am working on. I am trying to set out an amount that runs out late in the day.
Kitty does not gorge himself. Never has. He prefers the initial meal and then lightly snacks several times a day.
On a 5 oz can calories are running from between 135-220.
What is the caloric intake I should be looking at per day for an 11lb cat that is about 13 years old?

I posted a Kitty update thread today.

 

normally you try to hit between 15-20 calories per pound of the cat's ideal weight.

Mel, Maxwell, Musette and The Fur Gang

 

So 150-200 cal for a 10lb cat?

 

Yes. Depending on level of activity, the more active, the higher towards the 200 you'd go. Bob weighs 14.5 today. He's been between 14 and 14.8 the past 3 months. I try for about 280 cal per day to keep him there.

Carl

 

Ok. Sounds good.

Both cats are destroying the Wellness food. I have one more variety to try. If they like it I'll start getting the 12.5 oz cans.

 

sounds like the food change is going well, hope they keep it up, do you have any pics of the little ones

 

This is kitty.

 

wow kitty is a stunner looks a bit like one of mine is kitty russian blue

 

Your cat looks like my Shadoe.

The first thing to be started is home testing, especially before you go mucking with better food.
I would be terrified to shoot blind. You may find cat's OK on a dose, then you muck with low carb foods, and all of a sudden, cat's sick and rushed to vet due to numbers low because insulin not needed as food was changed.

Until cat is closer to regulated, and you won't know until you are home testing, the food amount will matter little as cats can't get all they need from the foods, so seem hungrier and eat more, just to get the nutrients they need.
My Shadoe once ate close to 24oz/day but is down to maybe 8oz now. My Oliver was eating at least 30oz/day and is close to maybe 12oz now. They are regulated now.

I feed them friskies and fancy feast pate flavors which are under 10%; good enough for me. Shadoe is very carb sensitive and if she gets 3 pieces of dry food in her mouth, her BG will hit the 400s. Remove all the dry as it's just not good food.

Get yourself a Relion meter as the test strips are the cheapest, and you test cat like crazy and save some cash.
You will never know how cat is doing, or if your food choices are good or lousy, if you are not home testing.
Be sure you are testing for ketones as well.

 

He is more a pewter gray.