Chloe 14

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by srk3cats, Sep 4, 2017.

  1. srk3cats

    srk3cats Member

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    Chloe's been having good numbers since she came back from the hospital, but I ran out of the Hill's for sensitive stomachs and am back to Royal Canin Glycobalance. She doesn't seem to like it. I mixed it in with the RC to transition so I wrote blend on the SS. No. she won't eat the RC at all. I had to give her 9-Lives. Maybe I should get a few more cans of the Hills I/D.
     
  2. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    I think you're right. I would stick with what she was eating. She liked it and was wanting more.
     
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  3. srk3cats

    srk3cats Member

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    I don't have any more cans of Hill's i/d, but she will eat the 9-Lives pate. Actually, that would be the easiest option since my other cats like it, too, and it's inexpenive.
     
  4. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    Ok, make sure she's getting enough to get the 2 units each shot. Maybe pick out a flavor that is closer to the same carb content as the hills.
     
  5. srk3cats

    srk3cats Member

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    The Hills i/d has 30 carbs and the 9-lives has 5. The calories of Hill's is 183 and the 9-lives is 168. So, which is better?
     
  6. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    That is a big reduction in carbs. 2 units might be too much if you go from the 30 to the 5. But she needs the insulin to keep ketones at bay.
    Hopefully someone else will have some advice. I think it would be wise to pick a high carb flavor of 9 lives... Maybe around 20% to see how she does. If they have any that high.
     
  7. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    Hills I/D is 23% on the most recent food chart. So maybe a 15% could work too?
    Chuck's bg would be over the moon if he had 23% food.
    I definitely would not want to switch her food over to a lower carb until you can monitor her closely. If she goes too low she's going to bounce and you'll see the reds and blacks again for sure.
     
  8. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    You could also mix I/D (30%) and 9 Lives (5%) in a half and half ratio. That would give you around 17.5% carbs.
     
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  9. srk3cats

    srk3cats Member

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    I'm out of Hill's, but have tons of the Royal Canin Glycobalance, which is 14 carbs. So I've been mixing those approx. half and half, which is 9.5 carbs, right? My math isn't so good this time of day (after work).
     
  10. Red & Rover (GA)

    Red & Rover (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Going by Kris's formula, that sounds about right.
     
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  11. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    I think it looks like she's bouncing over night.
    Maybe you can try blending more of the Royal in on the blue preshots to see if that will help keep her from getting the higher AMPS? Or feed her more food on the blues.
    I think a before bed test will help show where she's going on the blue and low yellow preshots. I don't think a decrease in dose is a good idea because of the ketones so more food/carbs should help.
     
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  12. srk3cats

    srk3cats Member

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    She's under 100 this morning. She's probably bouncing from that fur shot yesterday. She ate breakfast and I'll test her again right before I leave for work. If she's gone up, I'll give her a half dose.
     
  13. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. I think she's going too low again and that 97 pre shot shows it.
    SS says you gave 2 units this morning... Not half? Very dangerous. I hope she survives it.
    I think you need to have a curve done ASAP but not after this morning's cycle. I think she'll bounce into 400+ range.
     
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  14. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    Also wanted to add... It's recommended to stall 20-30 minutes WITHOUT food to see if they're coming up. Her number in +1 is food influenced...
    If you could test as much as needed I really do think Chloe wouldn't be hard to regulate. Only needing 2ish units on 23% carb food... There's a very high probability that you need to decrease her dose.
     
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  15. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Steph. It looks like 2 units is too high right now but the only way to know is to test more. Roberta, we've been trying really hard to help you with Chloe but you're the one who's there with her. She's had two hospitalizations so far and I think that warrants a rigorous testing routine to get her regulated. You've said that we weren't being supportive when we tried to be more direct in our advice/approach. You've also said that you can be stubborn but I honestly don't know why you want to resist good advice from well-meaning people who care about Chloe's wellbeing.
     
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  16. srk3cats

    srk3cats Member

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    I work full-time on the other side of town and live alone. My job is very demanding. I can do curves only on Sundays. That's just how it is. btw, Ijust got home from work and Chloe is fine.
     
  17. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    Did you test her? How long til her next shot? Could help to show how low she is before preshot.
     
  18. srk3cats

    srk3cats Member

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    She's at 82 at 6 pm and eating heartily. I will give her 1 unit when she's done eating and test her again at 9 pm.
     
  19. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    The 1 unit shot looks like it worked out. Saw your comment a few days ago saying you didn't get a before bed because she grazes. It's ok to get mid cycles after food. You can put a comment about when she ate so you know it's after food. I do that with Chuck's snacks. If it's 15 minutes after he has eaten his snack I say it's after his snack. If he just ate it within minutes of the test I say it's before the snack because there's no way it got his system yet.
    Please keep testing for Ketones. Don't let your guard down yet. There is a blood ketone meter. Strips are a bit pricey but in Chloe's case it might be easier and worth it. Maybe test twice a week until she's regulated... And when she seems off. Just throwing some ideas out there.
     
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  20. Caitlin M

    Caitlin M Member

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    What is this you speak of?! I've never tested Pita fo ketones and honestly don't have high hopes of ever being able to. But, he is a pro with testing... Sorry to hijack Roberta!
     
  21. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    There is a blood meter that tests for Ketones. Like this one. http://www.novacares.com/nova-max-plus/
    I believe the human one works with pets. I would have to confirm that to be sure.
    Just like a BG test. Strips are pricey. $18 for 10 at Walmart. I was looking into one for Chuck because I get sick of stalking him for a urine sample. He knows and as soon as I don't pay attention he's peeing and burying it!
     
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  22. srk3cats

    srk3cats Member

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    Chloe ate again an hour after I gave her insulin. Should I take her food away after I give her the shot?
     
  23. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    No. I would leave it out for her. I leave Chuck's out for him to finish whenever he's ready.
     
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  24. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    Looks like she's bouncing again.
    • Please test for Ketones.
    If you want to continue giving the 2 units you'll have to increase her amount of food or carbs.
    You could test for Ketones as often as possible and decrease the dose on the below 200 preshot to 1 or 1.5 to see how she does. But it's very important to keep testing for ketones since she's had them before. It can be a tricky dance trying to keep Ketones at bay and reducing the dose. Her being above 300 is not good for Ketones either so you'll have to try to figure out the right balance of carbs, food, and insulin.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2017
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  25. srk3cats

    srk3cats Member

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    I tested for ketones this morning and she was negative. I think I'd better stop her grazing.
     
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  26. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    What is she grazing on?
    I think her high numbers are a bounce. You decreased her carbs so unless she's eating 3 times as much as she did before you changed brands... It's more likely a bounce.
     
  27. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    The PMPS of 82 showed she's going pretty low.
    I have taken snacks away when Chuck is running really high (edited to add) but he was high because he didn't have enough insulin- not a bounce, but keep in mind she's not getting the nutrients she needs from the food when she's that high so the slight difference in numbers might not be worth making her hungrier. Definitely not a good idea for every cycle.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2017
  28. srk3cats

    srk3cats Member

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    I don't understand what you're saying, Steph. Are you saying to let her eat whenever she wants? She's not liking her food right now. She hates the Royal Canin Glyco and isn't too happy with the 9-Lives I bought by mistake. It's the chunky kind. Should be reciving the pate early next week. I also have some YA left. Should I leave some of that out?
     
  29. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    Yes. You can let her eat when she wants. Just no food 2 hours before preshot tests.
    She was on a high carb food and getting 2 units. You saw some success with that once she started eating more of it (after she was bringing you empty tins) so since you decreased the carbs she should be ok eating as much as she wants. Edited to add: just don't let her eat so much she barfs. Break it up into separate times if she eats til she pukes. Especially if you plan on sticking with 2 units.
    The YA would be ok to leave out for her.
    At this point, if she's not eating a lot, I would feed her whatever she wants or decrease the dose a little to maybe 1.5 units. If she isn't eating a slight decrease might be necessary until she does start eating. If you do decrease the dose, keep testing for Ketones.

    What flavor is the chunky 9 lives? Some of them are high carb but it doesn't help much if she won't eat it.
    The ultimate goal is to get Chloe's BG lower consistently. She bounces from going too low (most cats do) so at some point you will have to decrease the dose to keep her BG from going so low. Or increase the carbs and keep her in steadier numbers on the same dose.
    When she was on hills and she started eating more of it- the 2 units seemed to control her pretty well. I was discussing it with some other members and we thought Chloe was going to need a small increase. BUT that was BEFORE you switched food.
    Maybe you could try 1.75 units (if you feel comfortable eyeballing that dose) for a few days and see what happens. I feel a bit uneasy suggesting the decrease because I don't want Chloe to get sick again but I really do think that 2 units is too much now that you decreased the carbs in her food.
     
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  30. srk3cats

    srk3cats Member

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    I think I'll keep her on 2 units because another food change is coming. I don't know what goes on at night, but I did hear one of the cats vomiting last night. I didn't see any fresh vomit in the morning, though. Chloe is the only one who sleeps on the bed with me. Chico usually sleeps at the top of the cat tree, and Fuzma has started sleeping in the bathroom next to my bedroom. She likes the soft memory rugs I recently bought. Oh, and I gave Chloe a couple of treats a couple hours ago since she didn't like her food. She likes those treats. They're called "Primal", turkey liver flavor,and are 76% protein, 11% fat, and 1% fiber. Moisture is the other 7%. She did not like the Halo at all, so Chico ate them all.
     
  31. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    Do you know the carb level of the new food? If it's not closer to 18-20% I think you might need to decrease the dose.
    She was on 23% (Hills I/D level on Dr Lisa's list) when you were giving 2 units and started seeing more consistent preshot numbers.
    When is the new food coming? Are you going to compensate for her eating with a dose decrease or by increasing carbs (how ever you can) until you get it?
     
  32. srk3cats

    srk3cats Member

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    480. Yowling, but refused to eat RC. I put a bunch of bonito flakes over it and she liked those.
     
  33. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    Did she eat anything else or just the flakes? You're going to have to get to the store to get food she'll eat.
     
  34. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    Do you know the carb level of the new food? If it's not closer to 18-20% I think you might need to decrease the dose.
    She was on 23% (Hills I/D level on Dr Lisa's list) when you were giving 2 units and started seeing more consistent preshot numbers.
    When is the new food coming? Are you going to compensate for her eating with a dose decrease or by increasing carbs (how ever you can) until you get it?
     
  35. srk3cats

    srk3cats Member

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    I picked up a couple cans of food at the store. She ate a bit of the RC when the bonito flakes were on it. She also ate a bit of the 9-lives even though it's not the pate. Chewy gave me a refund for it, so I need to take it to a shelter.
     
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  36. srk3cats

    srk3cats Member

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    @StephG
    She's gone hypo. Did the honey and gravy thing. Will test again now. 46. Still too low. I'll try more honey.
     
  37. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    Honey and high carb food.
    Test 20 minutes after food/honey.
     
  38. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    How many hours since her shot and was it 2 units?
    You might have to continue testing for a few hours depending on how long ago get shot was.
    If she'll eat the high carb food you have, the chunky 9 lives or Rx food... That will help keep her up.
    The honey is only a boost and won't last long.
     
  39. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    @srk3cats please update when you can.
    If I am not here, you can change your thread to "911" if she's still low.
    Continue feeding small amounts with a drop of honey (if she's not responding to food alone). Test 20 minutes after feeding. Once she gets above 50 (I like to see 60s) you can withhold food wait 20-30 minutes and test again. If she's coming up, wait another 20-30 minutes and test again.
    You want to see 3 consecutive rising tests without food before calling it safe. If she's well above 50 they don't have to be rising but if she starts to go down again it starts all over.
    • PLEASE DECREASE her dose immediately.
    • 2 units is too much if she's not eating as much as she was eating of the Hill's.
    If she had 6oz hills which is 23% carbs and was doing ok on 2 units, unless you feed her close to that amount and %carbs she's going to need a decrease.
    If you feed 12% carbs and 6oz, I would guess trying 1 unit would be safe, as long as you're testing for ketones and can try to get some before bed and mid cycle tests when you're home.
    It's not usually how you decide how much insulin they need... But I think it could be a good place to start. She might need 1.5 units or she could need less... Time and test can only tell you... It's trickier when they have had Ketones/dka before... Finding the balance between food and insulin can be a challenge.
    I hope Chloe is ok. Good catch on the hypo. Those tests can be life savers!
     
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  40. srk3cats

    srk3cats Member

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    I left a bowl of 9-Lives pate on the bed (I meant to change the sheets anyway). During the night, I saw her eating from it. I slept rather lightly. She's up and about this morning, but not yowling. The silence is odd. I will test her now, but I have to go to work in a bit. 304 at 6:10 am. Now there's a dilemma. Should I give her a half dose? I can't be sure how long ago she ate.
     
  41. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    I see you gave her .5 units. I think that was safe enough. Did you leave her food out today too?
    I think you'll see higher numbers for a few cycles. She's going to bounce from this hypo. I would test for Ketones every day if you can. If not, at least every other or every 2 days.
     
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  42. srk3cats

    srk3cats Member

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    @StephG Her PMPS is 412. Now, what dose should I give her? I agree that 2 units is too high. Since I gave her .5 u this morning, I'm thinking 1 unit.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2017
  43. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    I agree. I think 1 unit will be ok. If you can, get a before bed test. They can be sensitive to insulin after a hypo. She's definitely bouncing.
     
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  44. srk3cats

    srk3cats Member

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    I gave 1 unit and she dropped to 266 right before bedtime. She's very hungry though. I gave her some treats.
     
  45. srk3cats

    srk3cats Member

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    @StephG , I got the Friskies pate today. Why is Chloe so hungry? She was eating vomit!
     
  46. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    That's awful. Have you tested her? When Chuck is super hungry I always test. He gets like that when lower.
    If she's been eating mostly treats she's not getting enough so she's going to be hungry.
    Is the 9 lives the meaty pate? Those are mostly low carb... Around 3-5% if I remember correctly.
    How much do you plan on feeding her each cycle? Are you mixing in the Rx stuff?
     
  47. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    @srk3cats try to get a before test tonight too.
    You can compare it to the night before and see how quick she's dropping.
    A fast drop in numbers can cause a bounce too.
    Good to see where she's going on the new food too.
    Broken record here but: keep testing for Ketones too. She's had them in the 200s before so you have to stay on top of it.
     
  48. srk3cats

    srk3cats Member

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    Actually, I made a mistake. It's 9 Lives pate, not Friskies. Just now, she finished a full 5.5 can in just one sitting! I will test for ketones tomorrow.
     
  49. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    @srk3cats Going out on a limb here... But maybe you can try a fat 1 unit. Just past the line... She developed ketones in similar numbers so maybe a drop more of insulin will help get her lower. As long as she's still eating! If she starts eating less I would go back to 1 unit as soon as she does.
    If you do try a fat 1 unit... Please get a before bed test or do a curve as soon as possible.
    Even if you don't increase, I would get a curve done Friday night or Saturday morning.
    Then maybe based off that curve you could try increasing to the fat 1 unit (or more/less depending on her numbers) and do a mini curve after increasing.
     
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  50. srk3cats

    srk3cats Member

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    She's still eating for sure. I was thinking the same thing about increasing a bit. I will set up for a ketone test tonight.
     
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  51. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    Hmm. Do you think she could have gotten into something to get the red preshot this morning?
    I think a curve tomorrow it's a good idea. She might stay flat if she's bouncing but if she got into higher carb food you still might see a normal cycle tomorrow.
    Yay for no ketones!
     
  52. srk3cats

    srk3cats Member

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    I've seen her scour the floor for crumbs of cat food and lick her bowls clean, but I don't think it's enough to raise her BG. I'll give her an F1 tonight and see where she's at in the morning, but I don't like seeing these high numbers for so long.
     
  53. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. She might be going a little lower than her body is use to over night.
    A before bed test will help see what's going on.
    I don't like the higher numbers either... And like always, keep testing for Ketones.
     
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  54. srk3cats

    srk3cats Member

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    I raised her dose to 1.5 units this morning and will do a curve today.
     
  55. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    I'll check in to see curve numbers...
     
  56. srk3cats

    srk3cats Member

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    I was cleaning litter pans this morning and took Fuzma's outside. I replaced it with a clean one, but hadn't yet filled it with litter. When I went back later, she had peed in it so I did a ketone test (on Fuzma). I just couldn't let that pure sample get away! Anyway, she's normal except for her pH, which is slightly on the acidic side. I just measured Chloe's glucose at +3 and she's down to 184. I love blue! I'll test again at +6.
     
  57. srk3cats

    srk3cats Member

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    Chloe's got a nice little curve going. I think I'll keep her at 1.5 units for awhile.
     
  58. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    Try to continue the curve until you go to bed tonight. That way you can see how much she's going down after pm shot too
     
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  59. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    Before bed test will show of she might go too low. It's nice to see that the ProZinc lasted 12 hours. Normally they start going back up around +8 or so... She might be a cat that needs 1.5 units on preshots over 200 and a fat 1 under 200.
    But first time shooting this new dose (kinda) on a lower 100s so a before bed test is important.
     
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  60. srk3cats

    srk3cats Member

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    Her before bed is 125. Blue all the way!
     
  61. srk3cats

    srk3cats Member

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    @StephG Why did she go up so much when she had such a nice blue day yesterday?
     
  62. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    It's probably a bounce. I think she probably saw a green last night but even if she didn't... When their body is used to higher numbers they can bounce from seeing blues and greens. Chuck does this too.
    If you can, get a before bed test every night. Or if you get up at night to go to the bathroom sneak in a test.
    I think she'll level back out soon. Just keep testing for Ketones.
     
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  63. srk3cats

    srk3cats Member

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    I'm going to start a new thread. This one is too long.
     
  64. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    I don't see your new thread. But I did see you lowered to 1 unit this morning. I think that was a good call. Curious to see what her PMPS will be.
     

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