? Colitis Back: Need Opinions Please

Morrigan's colitis is back again, 4 days after finishing another round of Flagyl (Metronidazole) for 6 days.

She started with it (first time) after she got to a 50/50 mix of m/d kibble and Purina Pro Plan canned food as well as Pure Snacks (freeze dried chicken breasts as treats) and the odd Luvs just to get her to sit to get her shots (maybe 4 pieces/day). It cleared up in less than 2 days on the Flagyl but, we went for 5 days on it.

We took her off of the Pro Plan and Luvs as well as the Pure Snacks and she cleared up on Flagyl. But...2nd time...as soon as we got back to the 50/50 with the Pro Plan Kitten, canned and m/d kibble... it was back AGAIN! So, back off the Pro Plan and another round of Flagyl.

Now, she's purely on m/d kibble. Four days off of the Flagyl and she's back to the colitis on solely the m/d kibble and a couple of Luvs treats for shots (which she has eaten her entire life with no issues).

So, NOW...I am suspecting that it *MAY* be the m/d kibble.
She was on NOW (grain free) kibble prior to the diabetes diagnosis with no issues with bowels.

m/d is filled with corn, corn gluten etc. and I cannot get her onto canned food again!

Anyone have any ideas/suggestions or seeing something that I'm not spotting other than it pointing to the m/d kibble and possibly corn or chicken sensitivity?

I'm at wit's end and would dearly love some heads put together. I'm trying SO hard to both get her off of kibble altogether as well as worrying now about the m/d being a culprit. Any ideas???

 

Have you tried Evo Cat and Kitten kibble or Young Again? Marshmallow is a kibble addict too. She likes both Evo and Young Again and both are low-carb with no corn or gluten.

Did your vet have any thoughts about why she keeps having diarrhea?

If you try one of those foods and the colitis continues, she may have IBD / a food sensitivity and need a novel protein. Stella & Chewy make a freeze dried raw food that is primarily duck, but it does contain turkey so if turkey is one of the culprits of her food sensitivity, then that wouldn't work for her. They also have a rabbit based food but you'd need to check the ingredients on that one to make sure there's nothing else in there. The food is dry but it's supposed to be mixed with some water. I gave it to Marshmallow just dry. She didn't love it and she still had digestive issues so I no longer feed it to her. But other people here use it and their cats like it just fine (@Cat Ma). (Be forewarned, it's expensive!)

Does pumpkin purée help her? I give Marsh 2 teaspoons every night and that worked like a charm when she had bad diarrhea. I'm also giving her human-grade probiotics and those are supposed to help with IBD (which Morrigan may not have so I'll leave it at that, unless you want more info on probiotics).

Something else that may help is Animal Essentials Plant Enzymes and Probiotics. I think of it as another version of Fortiflora. The Fortiflora didn't help with Marsh's diarrhea but I know it works for some kitties. The Animal Essentials had glowing reviews on Amazon. Even though the word probiotics is in the name, it doesn't have a big dose of probiotics, which is why I give Marsh more probiotics. I think of the Animal Essentials as digestive enzymes to help regulate digestion. It's also available on Chewy.com. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002ADJYM...=animal essentials plant enzymes & probiotics

The AE and human probiotics are tasteless and I mix them into her pumpkin. Marsh's coat immediately got softer after she started the AE a couple of weeks ago. So it's doing something for her! The human probiotics are a new addition so I can't say much else about them.

I hope some of this helps! Good luck with poor Morrigan's tummy.

Shane

 

Thank you, Shane. I am going nuts here. I've had this happen 3 times now and cleared it up with the Flaygl, only to have it return after being normal again. I really think that having eliminated everything else, it HAS to be something in the m/d kibble....like either corn or chicken since that is really all there is in it...corn and chicken meal.

I am Canadian so, we cannot get either Young Again Zero nor EVO up here. We can have Young Again shipped but, the cost is out of sight. They wan't $54/bag plus $32 shipping then, we have duty and our sales tax plus exchange rate with our dollar being $0.75 or so to U.S. dollar. That's WELL over $100 and more! Can't do it for a 4 lb bag and that's to say that she might not even look at it.

She was eating NOW food which had turkey and did fine on it pre-diagnosis but, it's way too high in carbs. I've tried and tried to get her onto canned foods and ONLY the Pro Plan Kitten was entertained at a 50/50 split BUT...the colitis started up each time I got to that level. This time...it's purely on the m/d kibble.

As for the pro-biotic...I'd have no issues trying her on it BUT...with no canned food eaten, I'd be hard pressed to find a way to get it into her???

I'm thinking that I *MAY* have to go to a higher carb kibble with limited ingredients and dose up to it???

The vet said that he thinks it's food related. We had her at an ER clinic when this first happened and they did a stool culture. No parasites or whatever to treat. So, our vet, the ER vet and another vet who used to be our previous vet, all think that it's food related. (Thorough exam done by 2 vets now).

Did Marshmallow have mucus and blood streaks on her stools?

 

((((((Louellen)))))I've been reading through some of your old posts; poor Morrigan has been fighting this for awhile hasn't she. Did your vet run fecals to evaluate for the presence of parasite worm eggs and protozoa ?(fecal flotation, direct fecal smear, and zinc sulfate tests for Giardia and Balantidium) should be performed in all cats with suspected colitis. Parasitism is one of the most common causes and contributing factors in cats with colitis. Was a CBC(making sure not anemic and no high WBC to rule out infection) and Chem panel run? By chance, were Esonophils high at any point? This could point to food allergies. How is her kidney function? Were xrays taken?

How is she feeling otherwise? You mention vomiting a few days ago on your SS. It is not unheard of to have allergies from eating dried food.

 

Thank you! Yes...she has had the whole gammut run on a fecal sample when we had her to the ER clinic for this a few weeks ago now. Negative for all of it so, they simply said it was likely something she was eating, causing it. As for Esonophils...no...I don't think that has been done. I will have to ask our vet when I can get him tomorrow. Kidney function...we had done in late March and all was well. Full blood panel done then but, not since (at $450 to $500 per blood test I can't afford it UNLESS absolutely necessary now). But, I'm sure he (the vet) will advise on that when I get to talk to him tomorrow. No X-rays as they didn't feel it necessary at that point.

She did vomit once the other day but, not since and has been eating normally. Besides her numbers running higher than I was used to while getting her on canned food, she's been her normal self at least (knock on wood). She's been out in the backyard, (supervised and totally fenced in) watching squirrels and chasing bugs as usual.

I'm really thinking now that it must be the m/d and either the corn or the chicken. I'd suspect corn first. That's the ONLY thing that she never had in her diet until her diagnosis in early April of this year. ???? I'm baffled! I don't know what to do next.

 

Your vet should be able to e mail you copies of all the bloodwork. There are many different forms of IBD but the one my mind went to was Eosinophilic colitis when you mentioned corn. Eosinophilic colitis is characterized by eosinophils (a type of white blood cell associated with allergic reactions or parasites) in the inflammation. The cause of eosinophilic colitis is unknown, but food allergy or parasitic infection may be involved. Some of these could be ruled out by bloodwork and some testing;just some things to discuss with your vet. but I hear you on the high costs. Mine was too!

You might ask your vet if a novel protein could make a difference? @Wendy&Neko has access to a wide variety of novel proteins, she is in Vancouver BC.

Is there any possibility she ate something outside that she shouldn't have? (think rodent, garbage, etc)

 

Thank you so much, Tiger and Ruth. I have a copy of her blood work from late March so, I will go look at it but, she wasn't on the m/d then so....??? May be useless in that aspect and I may need new tests. But, I will run that past him tomorrow when I speak to him (will have to just call him as I have no appt.).

Yes...I'm thinking a novel protein as well. I do know that she was ok on turkey as she was eating that prior to taking her off of the NOW grain free kibble and putting her onto the m/d. I will try to message Wendy&Neko to see what she has come up with.

Is it wise to switch over to a new food quickly at this point? I'm wondering because I'm thinking that *IF* it is an allergy/sensitivity to corn or chicken (all that is in the m/d), if I might just switch over while re-filling the Flagyl script (which will now, need to be done).

 

I'm so sorry, Louellen, I didn't think to ask if you were Canadian. I've heard about how Evo and YA are impossible to get up there and how they're changing shipping rules, etc.

I'm glad the vet has ruled out more serious stuff. I don't think you need to pay for another blood panel, it sounds like it wouldn't give you additional info. You can find out what the offensive ingredient is by cutting out both corn and chicken, wait until the diarrhea goes away, then add one back in and seeing if she can tolerate it. You could even try some plain baked chicken by itself.

The thing about IBD food sensitivities is that it can occur even when a cat has been eating the same kind of ingredients for ages. Just like some humans suddenly become intolerant of lactose or gluten. So it could be either the chicken or corn.

If you want to give her supplements, you could give her pills or syringe them into her. You can buy empty gel caps, measure in the right amount, close the capsule and pop it into her. Or you can make a mixture of water and supplements and syringe it in.

If Morrigan will eat plain pumpkin purée, you could hide the supplements in there. And pumpkin is good for diarrhea itself. If she won't eat pumpkin on its own you can syringe that into her as well. That's what I have to do. Marsh loves pumpkin but won't eat it on her own accord. I mix in her supplements, put it in a syringe (meanwhile she sits next to me anxiously waiting). Then she follows me to the couch, jumps up, and happily eats her pumpkin mixture.

In the meantime, while you're looking for ways to manage this, I would absolutely see if you can find a limited novel ingredient dry food and increase her insulin as needed. IBD kitties have a hard time absorbing nutrients from their food because their digestive systems are inflamed. It's more important to get nutrition into her and settle her gut than keep her on a low dose of insulin (although it would be ideal to be able to do both)! Marshmallow gets constipated a lot so now I have her on a higher fiber food that isn't as low in carbs as I would like.

I'm so sorry you're both going through this. Let me know which path you take. I hope you find a solution soon. Hugs to you and pets for Morrigan.

 

If you switch foods, I would still do it over the course of about 5 days. Just so you don't upset her stomach further. That's just my instinct but others may think differently.

 

Thanks SO much granadilla! I will ask the vet tomorrow on what food to give her and will try to get some canned pumpkin as well as probiotics.

 

In addition to elimination, with the mold toxins that can occur in grain and corn if your cat won't eat wet, try to find a dry food that contains no rice, grain, or corn products. Unfortunately, most bulk manufacturers get these from lower quality suppliers and from china, and when they are stored incorrectly, they are prone to fungus which can trigger liver damage and IBS. If you can find a limited ingredient dry food that doesn't contain these, it might help. Potato, carrot, and pea are usually the fillers in these and although add carbs, are less likely to be contaminated with fungal toxins.

 

Thank you, Meya....I'm baffled as to which one to use though. I'm looking through lists of foods and trying to figure out which LID (kibble as she is really giving me a hard time on the canned but, I'm NOT giving up on it!) to put her on for now. The vet formulations (like the m/d she is on) are ALL filled with corn and corn gluten etc..

 

Are there freeze-dried meat foods available where you are? It's hard to recommend when I'm not familiar with what's available in Canada. From what I hear, it's only going to get worse up there due to trade restrictions. That's very unfortunate. Will your cat accept home-made foods or is she squarely a kibble cat?

I see Wellness products available on amazon.ca, are these available widely in Canada? They have several grain-free dry food formulations.

 

I'm not familiar with seeing any freeze dried meat foods up here but, will do more research. I know...Canada is difficult to deal with when it comes to pet foods and other trades. Apparently, Mars (EVO producers) just decided that it's profit margins were too weak in Canada so, gave up selling it here and other countries.

She is squarely a kibble cat and I have tried every form of cooked foods on her with no success beyond a blah type of taste then a flick of her tail and she's off, without looking back. I've put things through a blender, even baked them and sprinkled canned food, baked with FortiFlora and NO go. Fresh Pet was a no go.

I DO have Wellness Core Grain Free though! I CAN get that! I can also get Nature's Variety Instinct but....she will NOT eat it. I should try the Wellness core grain free kibble again though. I still have some....BUT...I don't want to attempt a change right now...at least, not until I've spoken to our vet tomorrow. We had our dog on an LID kibble but, he didn't do very well on it when he had colitis. Hills i/d cleared him up and we eventually, very gradually switched to the NOW (Canadian made grain free kibble) and he's doing fine.

I may have to just try some recipes for home made foods and HOPE for the best...especially with turkey. I will have to look around for some home made (cooked) recipes and add supplements to see if I can get her to eat it. I don't mind doing it....IF she will eat it. She hasn't thus far. I can't do the Lisa Pierson raw formula though. Even 3 vets are against RAW diets and I can't stand the thought. It would have to be cooked.

 

Having worked in both food service and in health care, I've seen what listeria and salmonella can do. According to USDA ~5-12% of chicken in the US is contaminated, but I've read other statistics stating much higher numbers. Of course this is US numbers, I don't know about other places. Also, both cats got salmonella once years ago, and cleaning up -that mess- was no fun for any of us! Even though I know people feed raw with no issues, raw food gives me the willies!

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/wcm/co...lmonella-Serotype-Annual-2012.pdf?MOD=AJPERES

If I remember when I was feeding dry food, I looked at a lot of different foods and the wellness core was lower in carbs than the natural balance. That was a while ago though.

 

Can you get Royal Canin up there? They make a hypoallergenic food with duck and peas. They also make a hydrolyzed hypoallergenic food from soy, brewers rice and chicken. (I don't know what hydrolyzed means.) Hills Prescription Diet makes Z/D (rice and chicken are the first couple of ingredients) and I/D (but it has chicken and corn ) and Purina makes EN. EN has both corn and chicken also so that one is probably not a good bet.

http://www.royalcanin.ca/index.php/...utic-Formulas/Hypoallergenic-Selected-Protein

http://www.royalcanin.ca/index.php/...ic-Formulas/Hypoallergenic-Hydrolyzed-Protein

Last comment about pumpkin: it lasts in the fridge for about 5-6 days. After that, the taste goes a bit off. When I open a can, I put some in the fridge and the rest in the freezer. You can freeze small containers of it, or go a little OCD like me. I freeze it in ice cube trays, then put the cubes in a Baggie. Then every night I defrost a cube and it's exactly the amount I need. I know this is too fussy for some people but it works for me.

I get baby syringes from the grocery store or most drugstores carry them. The capacity is 2 teaspoons or 10 ml.

Will she eat the Wellness grain free? I also won't do real raw food. I would do commercially prepared raw like Natures Variety Instinct but Princess Fussypants won't eat anything but kibble.

Let us know if you learn anything fabulous from the vet tomorrow!

Shane

 

Is it wise to switch over to a new food quickly at this point? I'm wondering because I'm thinking that *IF* it is an allergy/sensitivity to corn or chicken (all that is in the m/d), if I might just switch over while re-filling the Flagyl script (which will now, need to be done).

Yes, it is wise to gradually transition Morrigan to anything new, including a novel protein, one she hasn't had before, such as duck, lamb or rabbit. I went through an elimination trial with Bonnie, my very finicky IBD civie cat, and the one she tolerates best has been duck. She also gets weekly B12 shots, Budesonide and Forti Flora probiotics.

Can you add Forti Flora or something else to get Morrigan to eat Nature's Variety Instinct's Raw food? I've got Bonnie started on the duck formula and she loves it though won't eat it unless I sprinkle Forti Flora on it. I feed her that plus Stella and Chewy's Duck Duck Goose (not on the recall list. Yes, it has some turkey in it but Bonnie tolerates this food well, probably because of its limited ingredients). She's been fine eating raw food. A benefit I've noticed from eating raw food is that her stools are better but I also think it's the B12 shots and the Forti Flora helping her. At one time, Forti Flora did nothing to help with her diarrhea. She had at least one bout with colitis that I can remember in the past, before her IBD issues showed up.

While turkey isn't a novel protein, if the grain free Wellness works for Morrigan, then you have a winner.

 

The problem with these expensive prescription diet foods is that they are high in carbs. But, if Morrigan eats and tolerates these well, then you would certainly want to weigh the high carbs with the possibility of needing to increase insulin. Many of the Hills canned products have glucose in them (what's the deal with needing to put glucose in cat food?) Along with raw food, I do feed Bonnie canned Royal Canin pea/duck food because she couldn't tolerate the Natural Balance Limited Ingredients food. Royal Canin also sells a pea/duck kibble formula.

If food allergy is an issue, chicken wouldn't be a good choice.

 

Hydrolyzed means the protein has been broken down into its constituent amino acids.

 

Before Bubba was DX with diabetes, the vet told me to switch his dry to high fiber to help him lose weight. Purina weight control, BIG mistake. There was corn and wheat gluten and I don't know what else and he got sooooo sick about 2 weeks later, diarrhea and vomiting. Took with to the vet and 700 bucks later after all kinds of test including an ultrasound, he was DX with severe gastritis. Right after the hospital stay, the other cat started with the same symptoms and then it occurred to me, it was the food! Took them off of it and symptoms vanished immediately. They had never had corn before and I am pretty sure it was that.

 

Wow...thank you ALL so very, very much! It really helps to have other minds working on this, along with experiences.

The vet just called back. I had the fecal test results sent from the ER clinic we took her to when the first bout of this started. They hadn't sent them to him. It was negative for any parasites etc. but he hadn't seen that so, wanted another fecal test. I highly doubt at this point that another one would prove anything different since it's only been a month since the last one and the SAME thing is happening.....except now...we've removed EVERYTHING from her diet except for the Hills m/d kibble.

Now, he wants to try her on Tylosin/Tylan instead of the Flagyl (Metronidazole)??? He's seemingly not believing that it *could* be the m/d kibble/corn/chicken or whatever that she is reacting to??? And, I'm at wit's end with this right now. I'd be more than willing to cook her meals for her and add a vitamin (NO RAW...as I really can't handle the possibilities with that as @Meya14 has pointed out in her experience/knowledge) *IF* she would eat it. My experience in cooking up meats and chicken for her as treats during shot times is that she will not do more than sniff anything home made...not even TUNA (surprise) at ANY time...even all sprinkled with FortiFlora (both the feline/canine versions as she tends to like the flavour of the canine version better???)

I'm really perturbed because I thought for sure that it had to be the Purina Pro Plan Kitten canned food that was causing it and was so disappointed as it was the ONLY canned food that she'd eat. But, having removed that from her diet for nearly 2 weeks now completely and ONLY getting the m/d kibble and it back again...I can only think that it HAS to be something in the m/d kibble that is not agreeing with her and that is likely corn or chicken. I'd be willing to bet the corn over the chicken but, who knows???

This all started when trying to switch her over to Orijen kibble that was the same percentage of carbs as the m/d kibble but, had mostly meat based ingredients. I think I did it too quickly. We got that cleared up with the Flagyl and stopped with the Orijen and Pure Snacks freeze dried chicken breast but, continued to get her over to the Purina Pro Plan Kitten wet food as we decreased the m/d kibble. The higher we got on the Pro Plan Kitten wet food...we were back with the GI upset again. So, out the window the Pro Plan went and another round of Flagyl. We were now down to ONLY the m/d kibble and it happened again. And, here we are. So, the ONLY common thing all the way along has been the m/d kibble, full of corn, corn gluten, corn meal and chicken meal??? Besides that....the only other things she gets are 2 or 3 LUVS treats twice a day for shots as it is the ONLY treat she'll eat no matter what else I've tried and...a tiny pinch of catnip afterwards as a reward for allowing us to do the testing and the shots (VERY difficult cat to deal with and takes 2 of us to get tests and shots in no matter what we've tried).

So, here we are again. Anyone had any trials on the Tylosin/Tylan? I haven't found anything contraindicating it with diabetes or effects on BG.

 

You know, in the absence of evidence that you are dealing with bacterial overload or bacterial infection, I would NOT continue throwing the antibiotics at this. Flagyl and the like are very hard on the liver, and other antibiotics can damage the kidneys. In addition they do disrupt the normal flora and make it more difficult in the long run to establish a healthy gut bacteria that will prevent recurrence. Certain antibiotics have a short lived secondary anti-inflammatory effect in the body, and sometimes people do see improvement with inflammatory conditions on antibiotics which are mis-attributed to infection. That the bowel issues recur as soon as the antibiotic is stopped may be a sign that you are seeing these anti-inflammatory effects only.

In that case, it might be better to start on a short course of steroids instead of continuing with the Abx. For perhaps 2 weeks and see how that affects her. A culture or stool sample at this point if she has had recent antibiotics will not be accurate, so after you stop them for a few weeks, -then- get the stool retested. If she's been negative for parasites, I think you're in the clear for those. I would get a test later and check for bacterial issues especially clostridiums.

 

In addition, it's my opinion that if you have ruled out every thing else, and you do believe that it is the food as the cause, get rid of it ASAP. Although switching foods does tend to cause issues in itself, purina has had reports of liver failure with some of their dry foods. There's no reason to ween off a food you have a suspicion of causing illness.

 

I wish I could write something as helpful as what you wrote to me about my kitty's issues. Do know what tests were used (fecal culture, FastPanel PCR, etc.) when they ruled out a bacterial etiology for the diarrhea? I think you have a very strong gut instinct on what might be at the root of all this though.
I just did a search on Tylosin for diabetic cats and didn't find much specific to diabetics either. Apparently, this med can be beneficial partially through immunomodulation, which implies it could work even if the diarrhea is not due to bacteria... maybe. Hang in there! Hopefully someone who's used it before will respond soon!
Fingers crossed for you and your kitty!

 

This is also what I was wondering about. Would be interesting to know why the vet thinks Tylosin might help if your kitty's tests have been clear of a bacterial cause...

 

Ok, raw is out for Morrigan. Looking at Forti Flora, the ingredients for cats vs dogs seem identical except for a few i.e. the taurine is missing from the canine version. I didn't look closely at the other ingredients.

The question is was the food change the cause of colitis or is it purely coincidental? It does sound like it leans more towards being a food-related issue and a sensitive gut, in the absence of any further findings.

 

Tylan is an antibiotic used to treat colitis. (Incidentally, it's a powder.)

If Morrigan were my cat, I'd move forward with the diet change right away. She clearly has an upset stomach. It might be the food OR it might be partially the food and partially a sensitive gut. Sometimes it gets triggered by something, like maybe the canned food did it the first time and now her gut is so inflamed that other things are setting it off. From what my vet said, it sounds like they don't really know what triggers IBD in some kitties.

She will need something to get the colitis under control as a temporary measure while you're doing the diet change. You could give her either the Tylan or Flagyl while she's switching food. (I would be inclined to give her Flagyl since that has worked for her in the past, but that's just me.) When she's switched over by then the meds should have calmed things down. Then when you take her off the meds, if the diarrhea comes back, you will know that she has chronic colitis not just a food sensitivity. Although it could take more than one food change until you find one that she can tolerate.

If you don't want to give her meds while you're switching her over, I seriously recommend pumpkin. It helps firm up the stool. It won't fix the reason for the diarrhea but it will make her and your life more comfortable while you're working on the diet switch.

If the colitis continues after the food switch, then you could try give her Budesonide. That's an anti-inflammatory steroid that is less likely to raise BG. It specifically targets the gut (I give it to Marshmallow). Prednisolone is another steroid but it often raises BG (but Every Cat Is Different, so she might be okay on pred). Prednisolone has a constipating affect so it's often used to treat diarrhea. If you do go with pred, be sure to give her the daily pred instead of a one-time injection. That's more likely to cause a big spike in BG.

And I would look into giving her probiotics to help repopulate her gut with healthy bacteria. The digestive enzymes I mentioned earlier, Animal Essentials Plant Enzymes and Probiotics are meant to help with diarrhea as well.

Keep us posted on your poor kitty.

 

@Meya14 I am agreeing with you on this and questioning the antibiotics AGAIN. This will be the 3rd round of them. First was for 5 days and did clear it but, once back on the Purina Pro Plan Kitten canned and half m/d kibble...back again. Now, she's only on m/d kibble and it re-started. I called the ER clinic and they've faxed over a copy of it to our vet and am about to go there to pick up the new med BUT...BEFORE I give her any of it (I still had a couple of doses of the Flagyl left so, have given her 2 doses...one last night and another this morning)...I want him to tell me what his reasoning is and why....because I don't see that short of any bacterial thing (apparently, a culture wasn't done for bacteria...just a check for any parasites etc. which was negative)...I can't see why she needs an antibiotic??? His only answer is that they have anti-inflammatory properties. The Flagyl DOES work. It does bring her back to normal BM's but, a few days after stopping...it's back. I think this is what is most upsetting and confusing.

To everyone helping me think this through...thank you: He just called me back as I was typing this and got the report for the fecal from the ER clinic which was negative. He said that he wants her still on the Flagyl, only because it has anti-inflammatory, immuno-(something) properties and does clear it up so, he doesn't want to switch now and will give a longer course of it, slowly tapering off of the every day dose after 5 days but, continuing every other day for 5 days then every 3 days and then off.

Interestingly enough, he said he's looked up stats today on this and said that there's only 1 in 1 million cats who are truly allergic/sensitive to grains but, that commercial pet food companies are preying upon this idea of "grain free" and having people thinking that their cats are allergic/sensitive. Ok, not buying that part of things BUT...here's what made some sense to me in all that he had to say. He said that all of the playing with foods, trying to get her onto a canned food etc where it's stressing her out and her GI system out, is likely doing more harm than good and we should be dosing to the food that she will readily eat, not trying food after food after food. I can somewhat buy that but, I put it forth to him that given that the ONLY food she is on right now is the m/d kibble and STILL has this issue...how does he explain that? (Keep in mind that I do NOT buy the m/d from HIM...I get it from another vet clinic that is closer to us so, he's making no money from it but, may be "brainwashed" by Hills etc.??? I don't even get the Flagyl from him. I have to get it from the ER clinic as they are the only ones who have the oral suspension as pilling her is impossible. He's making NO money off of me even for these phone calls....as I've scrutinized that as well.)

His answer was that by trying to switch foods yet again, we ARE stressing out her system further again. He doubts it's the chicken or the corn in the food and we'll adjust the dosage to the kibble when she's better.

What to believe or how to go???? I'm at a loss. I HAVE done a lot of switching in trying to get her solely onto canned foods over the past 3 months. I haven't stuck solely to the m/d kibble and she's been on all kinds of foods so...is he right? Or, is it the fat content? Is it the corn, the chicken....what???? Is it just the switching and a couple of weeks or less on ONE food only, isn't enough to calm it down as he says???

 

I get what he's saying but since the colitis came back while she was on the M/D, I'm tempted to say something in it isn't agreeing with her. OR her gut was so upset by a previous food that now everything upsets her intestines. It may not be the grains that are upsetting her but since they aren't great for her BG, why give them to her?

I think I'd proceed with switching to a new limited ingredient food and alter your dose of insulin as need be if her BG goes up.

 

Although some antibiotics -DO- have immuno-modulating effects, for flagyl it is minimal. The use of this medication for immuno-suppression is not appropriate, and could be dangerous. Treatments like this is also what leads to antibiotic resistance for the rest of us. Bad. News. The only antibiotic medications that are appropriate for this sort of use are also dual chemotherapeutic agents, like cyclosporine. And that would probably be overkill in your situation. If immuno-modulation or anti-inflammatory effects are desired, the appropriate medication to start are usually steroids or perhaps antihistamines.

If you believe it is the food, change the food. Food is an issue for a lot of kitties/people and GI disease.

It may be time for a second opinion?

 

This is why grain-free is important:

http://cdn.intechopen.com/pdfs-wm/22032.pdf

 

Incidentally, what does m/d stand for? If it were my cat I would get her off the corn and wheat gluten ASAP. I'm telling you,my cats GI issues disappeared immediately when I realized it HAD to be the food since they both had the same issues. I realize that it is tough when you have a cat that won't eat everything. My two were both dry food junkies and with the help of YOUNG AGAIN, I got them both off dry and now they don't even have to give the YA. I first gave them the YA by itself and they loved it. After a couple of days, I crushed it in my Magic Bullet, or you can put it in a food processor or blender and make it into a powder and sprinkled it on the wet food. I did that for about a week, then I took the YA away and they were eating Fancy Feast can and Wellness Grain Free flavors by themselves. I still have 1/3 of a bag of YA so my investment in it was not huge. Yes, it is pricey but worth it. They did both have soft serve type stools for 2-3 days and then it firmed right up just like the owner of the company said it would. I would be reluctant to do yet another round of antibiotics for all the reasons others expressed and it is hard on their immune system. I imagine you tried a tsp or so of pumpkin in every meal? Good luck Louellen, I know how frustrated you must be. HUGS!

 

" Prednisolone has a constipating affect so it's often used to treat diarrhea. If you do go with pred, be sure to give her the daily pred instead of a one-time injection. That's more likely to cause a big spike in BG"

Prednisolone isn't constipating for CJ. ECID is different. CJ had a long bout with diarrhea while on Prednisilone. The diarrhea cleared up after she was put on a low carb diet and got into remission. Now she has normal though smaller stool activity and is still on the Pred.

 

@Cat Ma, I think CJ is a magic cat. She went into remission while on prednisolone!! Magic kitty.

When Marshmallow had chronic diarrhea for 4 months before I figured out it was IBD, the vet gave her a shot of pred. That's what gave her steroid-induced diabetes. But it cleared up her diarrhea! As soon as the pred was out of her system, the diarrhea came back. Then I started her on budesonide and daily pumpkin and all has been well.

 

Yes, a magic cat she is! The vet says he's never met a cat like CJ in all his years of practice.

Since CJ had chronic diarrhea for over a year, I am inclined to believe the temporary insulin and the diet change to low carbs helped heal her pancreas.

 

Some kitties here are on Flagyl daily and are doing fine, apparently. My vet has been set against giving it daily long term.

@Louellen, has Morrigan had an ultrasound of her intestines done?

Has the vet recommended B12 shots (Cyanocobalamin)? It's good for IBD and gut issues.

Diet alone didn't clear up Bonnie's issues but she is doing much better on the LID, grain-free, novel protein food along with the Budeonoside and B12 shots. The minute she gets into CJ's food, there's a mess everywhere!

 

m/d is a Hill's product and stands for glucose/weight management. The ingredients in the dry kibble include Chicken By-Product Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Brewers Rice, Wheat Gluten, and Whole Grain Corn.

 

Oh, thanks, it's sound familiar to the cruddy Purina dry high fiber one I had Bubba on that made and Forrest so sick.

 

Hey All....

Just got back from the ER clinic (without Morrigan) and picking up the repeat on the Flagyl. He decided NOT to go with the Tylosin/Tylan for whatever his reasons and the ER Clinic was the only place I could get the suspension form.

My head is spinning. If you could see me, I look like Regan in The Exorcist, about to do a 360 degree head spin and spew green pea soup across the room!

You know that feeling where you know something is not right but, the more you hear and read and ask questions, the more confused you get? Yeah...I'm there....

I've listened to 4 vets now. All 4 of them have said to "stay the course" on one food or another and NOT to switch again right now. Three of the 4 have agreed with the Flagyl (the 4th wasn't asked about that). NONE of them thought it was the m/d kibble, in spite of my telling them that I wanted to put my head through a plate glass window.

The more I read and ask, the more confused I've become. The more I learn, the more anxious I get...because....I have just enough knowledge to get me into trouble but, not enough to get me out of it.

Ok, here's my thinking:

Morrigan's first bout, happened during a trial switch over to Orijen (done over 3 days instead of 5 to 7 days). During that time, I was also trying different canned foods as well as changing to the freeze dried treats...so, too much change, too quickly??? This I can understand fully as being the initiating cause and was MY fault for trying to follow what seemed best for her diabetes. There was only loose BM's at this point....no mucus or blood so, we rested her "gut".

Her second bout, happened AFTER I'd gone back on the m/d only for the first bout and had settled on ONE canned food and the m/d as well as the freeze dried chicken treats. So...perhaps, she'd already gotten inflamed and her gut "angry" at the switches. As soon as I got to the 50/50 mark of Pro Plan Kitten canned food...it hit again. This time, the ER vet put her onto Flagyl for 5 days and we put her back to solely m/d kibble, taking away the treats. (Round 1 for Flagyl) The Flagyl worked so, we were told to try adding back ONLY the Pro Plan Kitten and do it slowly. We did. Took us nearly 2 weeks to get back to the 50/50 again.

At the 50% m/d kibble-50% Purina Pro Plan Kitten...it was back again. Back onto the Flagyl and gone was the Purina Pro Plan (3 strikes it's out as the vets all said). The Flagyl cleared it again and at this point, she was only on the m/d kibble...NO Pro Plan, NO new foods, NO treats.

However, while still on the m/d kibble only...she was fine for 4 days after finishing the Flagyl before this started up again.

So, now....we're being told to go back onto the Flagyl as it likely wasn't enough time for her gut to settle fully and stay ONLY on the m/d kibble and we'll worry about dosing after she's settled on that one food.

Ok, I can "get" the idea that the many changes might have really irritated the heck out of her GI system and that it might have not been enough time on the Flagyl to tame it/heal it. It might NOT be the m/d kibble. (I did call Hills about the mycotoxins etc.). Their answer (of course) was that they are very aware of that issue so, they do 4 quality checks. One is as they are bringing the ingredients in. The second is during the batch making. Third is after batches. Fourth is before shipping on each batch one final time after packaging. Now WHO to believe?

They did warn to NOT let the food sit out wetted and not to leave the bowl down for more than 6 hours for this reason. Dump what isn't eaten as even saliva can create bacteria. This much, we do. We give out small portions several times a day in clean, dry bowls each time.

So, here...I can't really see much of an issue with that type of thing fully being the issue.

My vet is making NO money off of me for the food nor, the meds or my MANY calls to him. So, it's not him pushing the food for his wallet's sake.

That's leading me only now to the idea that there's an issue with a sensitivity to corn or chicken....IF.....it isn't simply that her gut from the trials and tribulations of food changes had NOT calmed down fully.

He's told me to NOT put ANYTHING new into her diet at all right now. Leave it solely to the m/d kibble so that we can see and tell if it's that or a GI upset from too many changes.... and give it a bit more time....we'll worry about her dosing in a week or so, depending on what comes out of this trial.

Ok...so that seems reasonable...EXCEPT for the fact that I HATE the antibiotic aspect as you guys have mentioned. BUT...it works. It does clear her up again within 24 to 48 hours of being on it. However, having a dog who also had colitis through stress, I know it took several rounds of Flagyl and changing to i/d which is PURELY corn (I know...dogs are different than cats) and it cleared up. We eventually, slowly weaned him off of the i/d and he's now on another kibble and canned food and fine.

IF I were to change her over right now to something new...I might risk her getting worse (right now, thus far, since last night...NO BM to this moment...knock on wood) and have the vet's wrath for going against his recommended course of treatment which apparently, he's thought through carefully and reconsidered over the day. (She's had 2 doses between last night and this morning thus far).

So...given that...I think I will try another 5 days on the Flagyl (then tapering off over several more days, separated) and m/d kibble ONLY.
HOWEVER...if there's another flare-up after this...NO MORE FLAGYL and the m/d GOES! And, it will be the Budeonoside (sp?) that I will ask him to give her.

Even if this DOES work, once she's settled down again more fully...I want to very gradually switch her over to something else. I mean VERY gradually...something without corn/chicken/grains and hopefully, WET food!

About the only thing that I might try adding now is the probiotic...even if I have to syringe it in with water as others have mentioned. I'll have to wait until Monday now to get some or...if any of you have any human probiotics to give me the name of...I will go and get them tomorrow and start. I have a few health food stores around me. I can't see a probiotic hurting at this point.

Sorry if someone has given me the name of a human probiotic and I've missed it. Also...what dose does anyone give a cat of a human probiotic?

 

Go with your gut feeling (sorry, I couldn't resist). I think, given how serious Morrigan's colitis has been, doing another round of Flagyl and then Budesonide and gradually introducing a new food is a sound idea.

@granadilla, wasn't there a human probiotic you recommend? You have an excellent list of suggestions. Hopefully there's one that will help Morrigan.

 

Thanks, Cat Ma...as you can see, I'm thinking every angle through, listening to the vet, all of your advice and trying hard to figure out which is the best way to go so as to make her feel better, not worse. I think I've tried way too many things, too aggressively since she was diagnosed and she's not exactly agreeing with me on it all. LOL

 

Please do not blame yourself for any of this. None of this is your fault one bit. You've been very diligent in giving Morrigan the best care possible. You are doing a far better job than I did starting out with Bonnie's food issues. You are approaching this very thoroughly and carefully.

 

Awww...Cat Ma....thank you!!!
I'm in tears right now over your message (you made me feel better). Sometimes, I feel like I haven't been doing enough. I blame myself because SHE can't tell me and can't make her own meals. I do what I *think* that I should be doing and basing it on what others here are able to do. Because I know Morrigan is not the easiest of cats to deal with in any form, I know that I have to go slowly with her. Even pre-shot testings takes 2 of us to get and she holds a grudge in spite of a couple of months of this now so, I move slowly so as not to put her in danger. But, when I see others getting lower numbers and being able to get onto solely canned foods, I feel like I have somehow failed her. She has her own personality, no doubt and isn't the cuddliest of cats but, she's her and I love her. I don't want to lose her any time soon.

 

Louellen, you cannot blame yourself for anything because you've done nothing but give Morrigan the very best of care. Treating the issues she has is very challenging on top of the sugar issues, yet you are so determined and haven't given up. So remember to give yourself credit for being the wonderful Mama Bean that you are. You haven't failed Morrigan one bit. Hopefully, soon, something will work for Morrigan.

Focus on what you've been doing to get Morrigan better. You've been proactive and are doing an excellent job.

 

Thank you, Cat Ma...I'm going to do everything in my power to help her and I believe, in spite of her rather "tough cat act", she knows. I'm NOT giving up on her getting well and will work on things for and with her.

 

Louellen, you are doing a GREAT job. There's no way you could have known she would ultra sensitive to food changes. And you're doing everything you possibly can for her. 4 vets?? I think she's clearly very well taken care of and very loved. She's lucky to have you!! (And I think she knows it!)

I agree with Cat Ma. Follow your gut and the vet advice. If it doesn't work, then you will start the food switch.

I give Marshmallow 1/2 capsule daily of this probiotic: Renew Life Ultimate Flora 15 billion CFU. 1/2 a capsule is just over 1/16 of a teaspoon.

You can give it twice daily. (I just don't have the time and patience for dealing with the syringes twice a day and she's doing well on her current dose.)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0042L1S1S?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00

If you can't find that one, here's a link to the IBD Kitties site that lists other brands and doses. Be sure to get one that contains bifidobacterium since that's the probiotic that focuses on the colon, which is responsible for diarrhea. Probiotics take a couple of days to kick in but at the least, you'll be helping Morrigan get some healthy bacteria in her gut.

Any brand will probably be fine if you can't find these. You just don't want to give her more than 20 billion CFU daily. A lot of human probiotics can go up to 60 billion CFU or possibly higher, but that's too much for a cat.
http://www.ibdkitties.net/Probiotics.html

Paws crossed for healthy kitty tummies!

 

I think the plan you've outline above is well thought out and a very good integration of your ideas, the vets', and those posted here.
I also agree with the others that your kitty is so lucky to have someone as dedicated, patient, and thorough as you taking care of her. My recent endeavors to help my kitty have backfired more than once; so I know how tempting it can be to blame yourself for things... but knowing what the average pet owner is like, I know that you (and several others on this forum) are exceptional cat guardians. I am so impressed by the wealth of knowledge, the altruism, and the dedication exhibited by people on this forum, yourself included. Morrigan is a lucky kitty!

 

Thank you all so very, very much! I feel a bit less "guilty" right now as I'm trying my very best but, I'm goofing up on her in trying too much.
That's the hard part about trying to learn more than what we should. I think my vet is ready to wring my neck for this! LOL He shaves his head as he's losing his hair. I'm sure I've played some part in that process. I'm constantly challenging him with questions and new info that I've read or learned about, studies, etc.. I'm SURE that he's rolling his eyes and I can actually see or hear him sigh as I pop another one into the mix. But...he NEVER refuses to listen and think about what I'm saying. He just sometimes, runs out of answers and reasons why. I swear that the moment I leave or he gets off the phone with me...he wants to go home and lay down.

I've even pulled our previous vet into this as I trusted him so much. He's no longer really in practise as he works full time now for a vet pharma company. It's the one that produces Felliway. I'm sure he regrets having given me his cell and home number and in telling me to "call him any time" now. I don't abuse that privilege by any means as I'm so lucky to have it.... but, when I'm really stuck...I will text him or leave a message for him to call me back for info. He does. And, I'm not afraid to ask questions of any vet as I figure that's what they're there for.

Our previous much beloved vet is now writing 2 books. One is for vets on how to talk to pet parents and get them involved in their pet's care. The other is for pet parents in how to talk to their vet and learn to ask questions. He's treading lightly on both as he has been on both ends of the spectrum but, he was saying that his biggest peeve with pet parents is that they seem to only ask 3 questions: "What do I have to do? Is my pet going to make it? How much is this going to cost?" Well, I think he might have needed a sedative after I was there or spoke to him!

So, I agree with SpecklesandMe that this group isn't the "average pet owner's site" and everyone here has a wealth of knowledge in not just feline diabetes but, also in a lot of other topics/needs. No one here is "the average pet owner". And, I love everyone here BECAUSE of that!

 

Thank you so very, very much! I'm going to look at the links now and see what I can get.

 

Just wondering how Morrigan is doing.

 

Hey SpecklesandMe....

Well, we gave her the last "taper off dose" of Flagyl on Tuesday night and now, we wait and see. She's been on ONLY the m/d kibble and her numbers are UP. I went in and talked to her vet on Tuesday about it all (not with her though as I don't want to set anything off again) and he took a look at her SS and said that yes, the numbers are higher but, if we can keep her bowels ok, we can dose UP to the numbers and NOT to play with foods right now in any way. We don't want to rock that boat and it's better to up her Lantus dose to the food.

I'm still unhappy about the food. I wanted her on the canned food but, hey....we have a balance that we have to strike and he (the vet) is working hard at methodically getting her to where she needs to be, both bowel wise as well as insulin wise.

So, if all is well still with her bowels, I'm to do a curve at home either Friday or Sunday and get back to him next week with those numbers and an update on her bowel situation or before if I need him. I hope NOT to need him for anything right now.

I am concerned though because these numbers have been consistently higher on the m/d kibble but, I suppose that like he's said, she's on 1U only twice a day so, it can be safely upped, work with that.

How's your situation going?

 

I'd be on the same page as your vet with this one, Louellen. Like it or lump it, our little ones' bodies ultimately dictate the most appropriate treatment path. I've got similar issues with Saoirse. The early stage renal insufficiency demands a low phosphorus diet. The diabetes demands high protein and low carbohydrates. The pancreatitis demands something that won't make it painful and sickening to eat. The only food I've found to date - after nine months of food trials - that keeps Saoirse's blood glucose levels in control that doesn't hurt her to eat is high in phosphorus. I've got to work around the right food for Saoirse: all the recommendations about what's right for diabetes or for CKD are frell all good to her if she can't eat them. She has to eat. Game, set and match, pancreas. (Thank Heaven for phosphorus binders... )


Mogs
.

 

Critter Mom...I did some hard soul searching on this topic because I felt like a failure for Morrigan. I had no choice but to come to some inner conclusion before I went insane and drove my vet there with me!

it's so hard when we're members of a board like this where you can read all about the "right things" to do BUT...can't do them all because your cat's own body and will come into play to halt that from being the case. Like I'm sure that you have done, I've spent many nights, fretting, crying, worrying, researching, listening to everyone's wonderful advice and feeling like I was somehow, failing her. The bottom line is that we are NOT able to go against what our cat's bodies or wills will accept/handle. And, like you have had to do, there has to be a compromise somewhere, somehow.

I think that you're in a much larger but, similar boat with Saoirse...it's figure out which of the health issues to treat and which to compromise on. Even when we can find what might be "the perfect food" (doesn't exist but...for demonstration purposes only )...there's also the good old fashioned "catitude" where finicky rules! Us-0 Cats-1

So, while I know what *should* be done...I can't do it. At least, not right now. The food that she tolerates bowel wise and will eat....doesn't work with her numbers....so, it's going to have to be that we dose the insulin to the food numbers and leave it there.

The same holds true for you....as you've said. Treat what you can, do the best that you can with what you can't treat and leave it there.

I'd love to be able to walk on water and part The Red Sea too while I'm at it but...hey....I'll settle for being able to get some form of control over Morrigan's BG numbers and bowel issues.

Come to think of it though...it might be easier to part The Red Sea some days!

HUGS....

 

Hi Louellen,
Corn and chicken can both be causes of food intolerance and allergy. So it could be that either of these is affecting Morrigan.

Bertie gets bouts of colitis.
I don't know what causes it. I've tried eliminating various foods but haven't yet found the cause (not even completely sure that it is food-related).
When he gets diarrhea I give him a hefty pinch of slippery elm bark powder in his breakfast, and also add Fortiflora to his food. This seems to firm his poops up. And, he has regained a bit of weight since I've been doing this (he'd been getting a tad skinny, possibly due to the diarrhea.)

I do understand though that it is easier to mix stuff into wet food, and Morrigan is eating dry at the moment.
My little tortie girl likes Fortiflora so much that she will actually lick it up dry. Maybe Morrigan would do the same?

Or, I wonder if it's possible to do with Fortiflora (and slippery elm) what some folks do with phosphorus binders; ie. Mixing them into dry food/treats and then leaving overnight. When phos binder is mixed with dry food/treats overnight, it sort of gets absorbed into it. Maybe the same would be true of Fortiflora/slippery elm, etc...?

Really hoping you can find something that works for your boy.
Huge reassuring hug to you

Eliz

 

Awww...thank you, Elizabeth

I *think* I have her colitis under control again now BUT...the vets have all cautioned me that once we find a food that works to keep that at bay (which the m/d kibble seems to have done...knock on wood it has)...don't change it....change the dosage of the insulin to suit the food. So, that's what I've been doing. Now, I'm 2 days into a .5U dose (now on 1.5U bid) increase and not a budge in the numbers. The m/d kibble really is an issue as I know that I can get her numbers down on canned foods BUT...that took 3 months to get her onto them even at a 50/50 mix of wet and dry....and....the colitis keeps flaring up on the canned foods...no matter which ones I've tried. The ONLY wet food she'd eat was the Purina Pro Plan Kitten formula and THAT was horrendous for the colitis. I have Wellness Core wet, DM canned, Merrick varieties, Nature's Valley(?), and several other top brands available but, can't even offer them to her according to 3 vets now. She won't look at the Fancy Feast, 9 Lives, Friskies etc.. Go figure. Most cats think they're at McDonalds on those. Not her.

I'll have to look into the slippery elm though! I have had FortiFlora (though I need more now) and didn't try getting that into her via licking it. She just might do that! The slippery elm though, I haven't tried so, I don't know. How much of that do you give? I wouldn't even know.

ETA: I'm wondering about this now. You've got my wheels turning because *IF* the dose goes up to 2U's and it's not making a difference, I'm going to insist that I try her on the canned foods again...adding back slowly...VERY slowly to see so, having those 2 things on hand might be a good thought.

 

Glad Morrigan's better.
I have used slippery elm on myself and it works for me (but EHID). I think if you leave it in food overnight, it will make it more jello-y, but if she doesn't mind, then I don't see why it would be a bad idea.

 

Hi Louellen, and glad you are getting things under control Such a worry to have it go on for so long. Recently, I have been reading about Aloe Vera Juice for animals. I started giving it in my doggies food about 3 months ago at the advise of my homeopath. She was having digestive issues too. Within days of giving her 1 tsp. in her food (she is only 13 lbs) and cooking for her, all digestive issues stopped. Now, I'm reading that it is recommended for cats too for GI health and diabetes. I'm thinking I will try it for Bubba as well. My one son drank it for some time also for GI when he was experiencing GI trouble. Anyone have any experience with it?