Comparrison between EVO and DM

Has anyone actually compared these two? Vets keep pushing the DM dry.

Does it work better than EVO? I just can't imagine it is as good as EVO in any way.

 

They are both listed on Binky's dry food charts here http://binkyspage.tripod.com/dryfood.html Evo is 8% carbs and DM is 13% carbs


Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang

 

I know the rates of carbs. I wondered if anyone tried them and got better results from one or the other.

I should have worded it better.


Thanks for jumping in.

 

That might be hard to say since most of us don't feed dry. But I would think that the higher carbs in the DM would be worse for a diabetic than the lower Evo, as carbs are carbs which turn into sugar in the body. I know my mother is also a diabetic and has to watch her carbs extremely closely as well. So the logically thinking would be if you try to stay under 10% carbs from wet food you would want to do the same for dry and DM doesn't fit that requirement.

Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang

 

My Smokey has/is using both. I actually think the DM has less effect on BG/insulin needs.

 

Reading the ingredients and comparing the GAs it would seem EVO is better and we had discussed this a bit before. So I have been using EVO dry in lieu of DM dry. Because my guys BG's are not dropping I'm looking for any reason I can hang my hat on. I leave some dry out certain times of the day. I leave out both EVO and the Wysong Epigen90.

The canned is Blue Wilderness chicken, Core Chicken, Wellness Chicken and FF fishy classics varieties.

 

Some diabetic cats cannot have ANY dry food, because even low carb dry food like EVO can raise BG. Bandit is one of these. A handful of EVO will send his BG up about 200 points. This is because of the way dry food is manufactured--they must use some sort of starch to bind the food together. Some diabetic cats are carb-sensitive and the carbs from these types of starches affect them more. I would try getting rid of the dry (for him at least--I realize you have many cats) and feeding a canned diet at 6% or lower. All of the canned foods you're currently feeding are below 6%.

Also, do you have you been Recording your BG numbers? Here's a link that shows you how to create a spreadsheet so that other members can see your data: http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207. Perhaps some people here using the same insulin as you could give some advice about dosing.

 

One of the vets who patented DM tells her own patients to use Fancy Feast instead of canned DM, and refuses to even have her name associated with the dry DM. There's a clue right there! :lol:

Ingredient-wise, EVO is much higher quality. Check out the ingredients for both (dry only):

DM :

EVO Turkey and Chicken:

The first thing that stands out is that DM has no meat. None. And it has corn gluten and soy flour. So right there, it should say "don't feed this to a cat - especially a sugarcat".

EVO has real meat, and that makes it much better. Too bad they threw in all those veggies and fruit. Sigh. Still, ingredients are better.

That being said, EVO has also caused some cats here to soar into sky-high BGs. Some cats can't tolerate the carbs from the fruits and veggies, even if the nurtition is better.

One other little anecdote : When I started here, a gazillion years ago, DM stood for "Diabetic Management". Look at the bag now. They changed the name to "Dietetic Management". Hmmmm ... wonder why? ;-)

 

The vet didn't like it when I told him I thought DM was crap. He told me to throw away all the canned and never feed a cat canned food it's bad for their teeth..that's when I go a new Vet. I can't trust what he says anymore.

One note on the dry...I feed half EVO and half Epigen90 which has almost ZERO carbs and ALL the starch has been removed.

I can pull the EVO and leave the Epigen90.

 

The Wysong 90 is NOT 0% carbs. That's a misleading claim by the manufacturer. See this blog:

You would have to get the AS-FED values to truly determine the carb content of this food, but considering the high fruit (sugar!) content in this food, it's not going to be ok to feed to a diabetic cat. Also, while carbs from fiber aren't necessarily a concern for regular cats, it does influence blood sugar in diabetic cats, especially carb-sensitive ones. I found this out when I was giving Bandit pumpkin (100% pumpkin, no sugar) for his poo for a brief period of time. It spiked his BG by about 100 points.

The Epigen 90 is probably worse on BG than the EVO.

I really recommend getting rid of ALL of the dry food for your diabetic.

 

There are several reasons i cannot get rid of dry and never will...no use taking up space explaining it. I'll make do with EVO and something else 90 or other. Even the racoons outside won't touch Core dry.
Food spikes are one thing but what keeps carbs high is the DM. I'm still trying to get a handle on nutrition and it's effects. Like what does fat do and how it affects calories and such. What makes them fat and why does that turn into DM ( I am some idea about this)
But, note this: I have a friend who is very financially challenged. She has two cats who have lived on the worse crap food you can find. They eat anything she can get her hands on. They never have been to the vet, rarely get sick and the both are nearing twenty years. Wonder what her secret is? Also, Tilly's is misleading. It says if you don't do this or that forgetaboutit. Taint so. You read that account of the eight Lantus cats. From what I gave seen it is up to the cat. They give the numbers and we say hey it's working. I am not a fan of TR and curves. Just ask yourself how many curves change and shift and you chase them (I don't mean you, I mean in general).
I do believe in home testing though.
I spoke to Wysong twice and insisted about the carbs and as fed and they assured me emphatically that the 90 contained less than 1% carbs. I grilled her over and over and she kept insisting it was good stuff for DM cats. So, I'll talk to Wysong again Monday. They are closed now. If they lied to me I will demand to speak to Wysong and let him explain any alleged deception.

 

Believe it or not, they may not be lying and yet they may be wrong. The problem is that you are talking apples and they are probably taking pineapples...

When they say it is 1% carb ... what do they mean? By weight? By volume? By ingredient? What *we* want to know is what percentage of calories comes from carbohydrates? When we talk about 5% carbs, etc., that's what we mean. That is probably not what they mean. Total cross purposes.

Example : You have a cup of black coffee. You add one teaspoon of sugar to that cup. What percentage of your coffee is carbs?
If you are talking ingredients, it's 1 tsp in a 1 cup (there are 48 tsp to 1 cup). So it's basically less than 2%.
If you are talking what percentage of calories comes from carbs, it's 100%.

That's why we insist on "as fed' values - so we can talk apples and apples. Does that make sense?

 

Yeah, I dig it and that is what I said. We are not talking percent of what is in the cup but the total calories therein and what percentage is attributed to the carbs.

Now, are calories from carbs worse than calories from let say protein? It would seem they are.

 

If you would like to see direct proof of what dry DM does as compared to Wellness Core wet food or Wellness regular low carb food, look at Racci's ss dates 4/9 & 4/10 compared to the dates around those days. The order that came in was a bad batch and I did not have any of her favorite food. She is very fussy & would not eat any other wet food and I was forced to give her dry DM until I got back from the store. You can see what it did to her bg.

Melanie & Racci

 

It's your cat, so of course it's your choice to feed dry. But you do have to understand it will be more difficult to regulate your cat if you're testing infrequently and feeding dry food. Without enough data, it's hard to say if it's actually the food or the dose that needs to be adjusted.

EVO is going to be the lowest carb dry food you can find. Nature's variety instinct might be about the same, too, but you'll need to to get the As-Fed values to actually determine the carbs in it--someone got them a few years ago and I believe it was around 7%, but that's just a vague recollection and the numbers could be different now.

Even if you're not following TR, mid-cycle tests are still needed to determine how the insulin is actually working on BG. If the dose is too high, it will not often show up in preshot values until the cat has had one or more hypoglycemic incidents.

 

I don't worry so much about the ends with Lantus. I worry about what I "think" is the middle. When I say that I don't mean the numbers as I have him tested at the vets once a week. I mean where the nadir might be. Lantus is weird stuff.

As soon as I get decent numbers for a while I am switching to Levland.

 

Lev is also based off the nadir so if that is a concern with the Lantus, Levemir isn't going to change that. While both the L insulins have their differences they both work fairly similiar. They are both based off the nadir and they both have a shed. So without those midcycle test it is still going to be hard to regulate especially when you throw the dry food in the mix.

But as Julie said it is your cat and your choice what to feed. But to be very honest, without data I'm not sure how many of us would be willing to help with dosing advice, we just don't have the data to do that safely. None of us want to do or say anything that could but your cat at risk anymore than we would want to put one of our own at risk by not following the correct protocol for the insulin we are using.

Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang

 

i understand and we are finding our way.

Am I wrong or are the nadirs with Lev more consistent and predictable? I don't like the nadir may be + 4 or +12 deal. And the other side of that is it will shift. Is that correct?

 

That's why home testing is so important. ECID, and nadir times vary between cats. But if you're testing and you know when that is, then you just go with it. My cat's is generally at +3, but he usually has a second drop within his curve, so sometimes he does hit a lower number around +11 or +12. I can't speak for others' cats, but his cycles have changed very little in terms of when the nadir is and how the insulin affects him, the numbers have changed, but the patterns are fairly consistent. If you look at his SS, you can see this. It's much,much easier to handle your cat's cycles if you have the data.

If your cat is like most, numbers taken at the vets mean very little in relation to his actual numbers. Stress causes fluctuations in BG. Most cats have a higher reading at the vet's than they do at home, but a few dip lower. Mine can run 100 or more higher at the vet's than he does at home (I always test right before we go). Your cat may very well be having better numbers than you see on the periodic vet tests. Those spot checks at the vets mean very little, in general, about where your cat's numbers actually are.

 

That's amazing you put up with nadirs like that! How do you do it? Are you home 24/7?

God bless you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Andre' loves the vet and purrs the entire time. The vets number and mine when I could test him were ten points apart. There is no stress. He loves the girl who tests him. He rubs his face on hers. No stress. He purrs all the way there and all the way home.

 

Musette is on Lev after a switching her off Lantus her nadirs vary as much on Lev as they did on Lantus because insulin and metabolism are not linear things, many things in a cat's day can effect how they use that insulin on any given day. Somedays her nadir is right at +6 other days it can be at +11 or +12. Just like with human diabetics everything from the amount of food to activity to having just a plain bad day can influence their numbers.

That is why home testing is important.

Just curious...if a vet tech can test your cat what is the difficulty you are having with doing it at home? perhaps we can help you solve the problem.

Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang

 

Two girls take it from the back leg where he can't see while one loves him up all snugly and kissy face. I volunteered to takes his place on occasion, but they would have none of it. I was even willing to give blood.

That's what I mean about this thing. Your chasing a moving object. I used to test my other guy three times a day and as I look back it was completely unnecessary.

Fact: You don't control DM, it controls you.

I would never advise anyone of anything because I do not have the answers. As with many, maybe most of you, I can only speak about my hopes, failures and successes.

I may sound harsh and challenging sometimes, but I am very loveable. Hugs please!

 

I do work from home, but I'm not here 24/7 by any means. I travel a lot for work, too. I wish his curves were more normal because I think it would be better for him, but if you have the numbers and the data, it's much easier to leave, because you can look at the trends from the past. In general, what matters is knowing when the nadir is and how the cat uses insulin throughout the cycle. You can't really change how the insulin acts in the cat, but if you know how it acts on a daily basis, it's much easier to get an idea of how a dose is affecting the cat. It's SO much less stressful to deal with the diabetes if you have adequate, daily test data.

 

Whatever works for the person and cat is the best way.

Without any testing it is like driving with broken wipers in the rain...risky. I really do wish I could test him and one day I will.

 

My vet told me the same thing! We had just lost a cat to bladder cancer the day (4/12) before my sugar-baby's visit to vet, as a result I was so distraught and blurry-eyed that I bought the DM...today I replaced it with the Evo. Vet's tech argued with me...tried to tell me that corn-gluten meal and soy flour is appropriate for a diabetic cat!

 

So sorry about your loss. I recently went through something similar and it is a terrible experience we never forget.

I called Natura for the fifth time yesterday questioning them about the P&G takeover and they still insist there are no changes. I complained that the recent purchase of EVO canned smelled unpleasant and I simply trashed it. They said the formulas never changed nor the processing. However, where they get the products can change and can affect the aroma, texture, color etc..

Bottom line here is if you don't make it yourself there will always be a gamble. In fact Diamond company is experiencing a problem with Salmonella in one of their processors. If you feed Diamond products check with them regarding what you are feeding.

I spoke to the owner of Nature's Variety when he was developing his food. I am going to look more closely at what he is offering these days. He sound very committed.

I am going to retry frozen raw.

 

That sounds like an excellent idea. However, since you're not testing at home I would lower the dose a bit if you're eliminating the dry food to be safe. You'd be surprised the drops you can see even with the lower carb dry food, especially if the cat is carb sensitive.

 

Hi all, I'm new here and have a question that I'm sure some of you will be able to answer in a snap.

Long story short: my 11 year old boy was diagnosed diabetic in Jan 2011. I immediately began researching, found this message board, and educated myself on the importance of feline diet. Loki was taken off the dry food and put on Fancy Feast classic (I was lucky, the transition from dry to wet was no problem with him!), and his sugar numbers went back to normal within a few days. The doctor thought it could have been a "false positive", but I never took that chance, and have left him on the wet food.

The Fancy Feast seemed to upset his tummy lately, so we've switched over to Innova (not Evo, just regular Innova) Senior wet food, which he loves and begs for. He gets 6 oz a day. My question is this: I've tried and tried and tried to find and figure out the % of carbs in this food, and am at my wits end.

Does anyone have any idea how to help me & my severely-math-challenged self?

 

Innova Senior is on this chart: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8Uu8g1u8Su9YTgxNGE1MDItM2MyMC00Y2Y3LWI4ODMtMzhkYTkxOGM4NThk/edit

It's 14% carbs, so it is too high for a diabetic cat.

What sort of things are you seeing with the fancy feast? Is he vomiting immediately after he eats it, or is it a while after he eats?

 

WOW, I thought Innova was supposed to be low-carb!

He's not vomiting, it was just making his stools a little runny. So far, he's done great on the Innova, but maybe I need to re-think it. Thanks for the answer!

 

Innova all has rice in it, so it's not low carb. EVO is made by the same company, and that's the low carb one.

However, Bandit has a similar problem with runny stools when he has too much fat in his diet. The Innova is lower in fat than most of the Fancy Feast. Why don't you try a lower carb, lower fat food and see if that sits right? I feed Bandit Merrick's Cowboy Cookout, Surf-n-Turf, and Grammy's Pot Pie for the lower fat--he still gets Fancy feast a couple times a week but since he's mostly eating low fat the runny poo has stopped.

Some cats also have a similar reaction to the byproducts in FF because they have a food intolerance to something, but because anything could be byproducts it's hard to figure out what the culprit is with FF. Usually it's fish but beef could also be the culprit. I noticed that the Innova has a small amount of salmon, but sometimes salmon doesn't have the same bad reaction that other cheap, fishy byproducts do. If you try the Merrick's and the runny poo starts again, then most likely you're dealing with a food intolerance (to either fish, beef, or both). I would try feeding something like Merrick's BG Turkey, or Nature's Variety Instinct Rabbit Formula and see if the problem stops. If it does, you're probably dealing with a food intolerance.

 

Can not thank you enough. Heading to Petco right now to grab a couple of cans of Merrick and see what he likes!

 

Cowboy Cookout (beef), Grammy's Pot Pie (Chicken/Turkey), and Surf n Turf (Beef/some Fish) are the low fat, low carb flavors.

 

You may want to try Wellness Chicken or Turkey, both low carb and easy to eat. Mix it with a dash of FF for more Flavor.

 

Grammy's Pot Pie is a smashing success. We'll try Surf n Turf and the Cowboy Cookout for a later meal. I'm so happy!! :mrgreen:

Julia, I thank you & Bandit with all my heart (I have a horse named Bandit, hee!) - and Loki thanks you as well, judging by the chop-licking and face-washing that is currently going on!

 

Awesome! Now, if you give him the CC and S&T and he has runny poo again, then my bets are that it's a food intolerance (to beef and/or seafood) and not a mild IBD thing. If he handles them just fine, then he's in the same boat as Bandit and needs to stick to mostly lower fat foods in the future.

Wellness Chicken and Turkey are both high in fat, so if it does turn out to be mild IBD you don't want to feed these. If it turns out to be a food intolerance to beef, they'd be fine to feed.

 

We're batting 2 for 2. Cowboy Cookout is on the approved list. He's loving this stuff, he actually gives me a "well, where's the rest?" look when he finishes! :lol:

 

I've never met a cat that didn't love the Merricks. It was one of the only things my Gabby would eat at the end of her life, when her stomach cancer caused her to refuse most foods. I got turned onto it for Bandit because I wanted to feed him a higher quality food than the Fancy Feast, but the EVO and the Wellness were causing the runny poo issues. Well, once I started paying attention to the fat content of the premium foods, a light bulb went on in my head, I switched to the low fat Merricks, and I haven't had a poo problem since. It's been almost a year on the Merrick's now, and the added benefit of the high protein has caused Bandit's remaining flabbiness to turn to muscle. Last vet checkup he weighed half a pound heavier than he did 6 months before, but my vet was shocked to see how lean and fit he had gotten! I am completely sold on this food.

Plus, I recently discovered that I can get it for $1.04 a 5.5 oz can at my local Agway with my True Value card. So it's now cheaper for me to feed the Merrick's than Fancy Feast. :smile: If you haven't made use of their website's store locator, it's really handy in finding good pricing on it http://www.merrickpetcare.com/locator/. Most locally owned feed stores have much cheaper prices and will give you discounts if you get a case at a time, or have coupons or other specials. At both Agway and the Ithaca feed store, it's 1.25 a can before discounts, and it's 1.40 something at PetCo.

Quick Tip--if you refrigerate it before you open the cans, you can cut it into portions easier. It's a little mushy to portion at room temperature.

 

You are just an amazing fountain of great knowledge!!

I'm not so worried about portions, because I feed him several times a day in small quantities, so spooning it out isn't a big deal (but I'll file that away for future reference!) I was honestly shocked by the fact that Loki dove into it, just because of the texture. We tried some other chunky wet foods along the way, and he didn't seem too crazy about them. I assumed it was the texture, but maybe the Merrick food is just. that. good! :lol: