Danielle and Baby

ETA: Split out from Tooloo's post.

 

Deb - did you PM her? You might need to as she may not have subscribed. u got a link to her post?

 

Wendy, Yes, I did PM her. About weather she is the Danielle that Jamie met and a second PM about the new post. She knows how to read PM's because as soon as I saw her name, I sent a PM to her and it was picked up.

She posted at the end of Tooloo's post. This one: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=100821&p=1077595#p1077595

 

How can you tell if its picked up?

She needs to be at the vets.

Wendy

 

You know a PM has been read if it goes from your Outbox to your Sent folder.

Wendy, I agree, she needs to go to the vet. I made that strong suggestion for her to do that. Hoping that is where she is now.

 

i called her and no answer. texted her and said she should call the vet ASAP cause 27 is dangerously low. also emailed her

 

Danielle asked me this in a PM.

You are in the eastern time zone, so your 10Pm is about 90m minutes away. I do not think Baby will be high enough to give any insulin.

How many test strips do you have left? Not sure how many Jamie gave you and how many you have used.

My strong opinion, is that Baby should get NO insulin tonight.

 

Just retested her and got a read of BG-44 so we gave her some more syrup...We are suppose to give her 3 units at 10pm what should I do?

 

I have plenty of test stripes but I only have 2 of the little needle things left

 

the lancets. if you run out before you can get more... you can reuse them but dip them into rubbing alcohol first

 

You are in the eastern time zone, so your 10Pm is about 75 minutes away. I do not think Baby will be high enough to give any insulin.

My strong opinion, is that Baby should get NO insulin tonight.

We need to keep bringing those numbers up. Do you have any high carb food like Fancy Feast gravy lovers?

 

You can reuse the needle thingies - which are called lancets - while it's not ideal - because they dull with each use, if you don't have anymore, then reuse what you have until someone can go the store and buy more.

And DO NOT give her insulin tonight - DO NOT GIVE INSULIN

 

She is much too low and giving 3 or even 4 units is way too much just now.

Let's get her out of this crisis and then we will go over everything with you to help you better understand the how's, why's and what to do's........ok

 

Thank You all so much I was blessed today when I met Jamie at the Vet...I am very thankful for you all because I woulda never known any different from what the vet told me I would of ended up giving her the insulin and probably killing her toni8ght...So NO INSULIN!!!! I am going ton test her here again in about 7 minutes and I will let you all know her BG level. I just took a video of her on my cell phone playing with a laser pointer is there anyway I can post it on here also, how do i put up pictures?

 

I have got to take care of Jupiter. He keeps pulling the sock off of his foot. Hes meowing so I think he may have hurt his foot. I will be back in a few minutes to check in with you.

Please post a reply and let us know when you test and what number she is at.

 

Ok just tested her again her BG-33 this time should I give her more syrup?

 

yes, a bit more syrup

(and i'll post more in another response, just want to get that out there)

 

ok, while it is quite a bit since the last shot, the thing with lantus overdoses is that they can last for a very long time, longer than the usual 12 hour cycle and in all honesty, your kitty has likely been overdosed for a bit now sooooooooooooooooo, we need to get kitty up above 40-50 and to where she'll stay there on her own so yes, a bit more syrup or higher carb food and testing until she gets there

no insulin tonight of course you know now. we need to let her body clear some of this out of her system. you will undoubtedly see higher than pleasant numbers tomorrow but that is to be expected with the bounce she's going to get from tonight. we ride it out and make sure to not overrespond and give too much insulin again and then we go on

don't worry, you're in good hands here on fdmb

 

ok just gave her more syrup. How much should I give her we have a eye dropper that we are using its in ml I just gave her 1/4 ml

 

i think that's ok. i have always done just a little at a time myself when i've needed to use it. too much can make them sick sometimes so i prefer to do a little and if need be, a little more. the glucose meter is your best friend in this illness and it will guide you as to your next steps

by chance what kind of wet kitty food do you have in the house? anything sliced, diced, chunked, or fileted? in gravy preferably. i ask because i'm wondering if you have any higher carb food and if so, then she can have a little bit of it too to help get her BG (blood glucose) up

eta: by the way, exercise lowers blood glucose so don't let her play too too much right now k. don't need her to self hypo either

 

Danielle I am so glad I met you at the vet today and overheard the conversation with the vet tech telling you to continue that high dose with those low numbers and not test (they said to bring her back in 2 weeks) and I just thought that was crazy. I am so glad I stopped to talk to you. I think it might have saved your cats life tonight.

Maybe we were meant to run into each other today!

I promise you, these people here will guide you in the right direction. Please dont hesitate to ask questions.

 

Great job Jamie. you did indeed save this cats life. you should feel very proud of yourself.
you paid it forward big time.
hugs to you my friend
and Jupe.... PLEASE keep that sock on ... damn it boy!!!

 

You should keep Baby quiet so she doesn't burn any more blood sugar than necessary (no laser chasing for now). Great job with testing and posting!
Liz, Zener's other mom
ETA: Post the video to YouTube and then the link here. We will love to see Baby when this crisis is over.

 

Danielle, we need a test every 30 minutes for a while. I think another test is due about now.

 

Thank you all so much I really appreciate everything and all the advice...She will get no Insulin tonight and I will check her BG tomorrow morning and post here and let you all know what her levels are...Im not bad with computers but im not good either lol...I will have to ask my husband bout that Youtube stuff I have been trying to figure out how to put a pic of her up for you all to see but i can't figure it out angry(2)_cat

 

Did you get another test? We need one now.

Another test and more food, 1 teaspoon with more syrup, a drop or two.

We need to see her in the 80-100 range before she will be safe.

 

BG-51 at 9:45 EST


:RAHCAT

 

much safer number thank goodness. anything below 40 can go bad in a moment so we prefer to not see them down there too long.

the higher number could be due to the syrup so test again in 30 minutes and see if she went up more or back down. what we do is get them up quick with syrup and then try to hold them up via their food so if she hasn't had any food for a bit perhaps let her have about a tablespoon or so of her normal food and then get that test in 1/2 an hour

 

I just gave her some more syrup I gave her 1/4ml again...Her BG is coming up so thats a plus thanks

:razz:

 

Give her some food please too. The syrup wears off really quickly. The low carb food stays around in her system a bit longer. At least a teaspoon of food would be good.

 

don't worry about the picture just yet, we will get you set up and tech savvy for this forum....all in good time......ok

 

I am so glad Jamie met you and talked to you at that clinic. She did save your cat's life. :thumbup to you, Jamie.

Lantus is a depot insulin, and it may take up to 24 hours to drain her depot a bit. I would give her her normal feeding with maybe some added drops of karo mixed in, unless you have some higher carb food like those that say "with Gravy" on the label.

You have come to the right place. We will help you to help your kitty. The home testing tonight is saving your cat's life. I hope that one day you can tell that vet tech and vet what almost happened. But for now, lets concentrate on getting your cat into some safe numbers. The karo will wear off in about 2 hours, so you want to get food into her which will keep her BGs up longer. You may need to set an alarm tonight to get up and feed her and maybe test her some more. I know you skipped the insulin shot, but like I said that Lantus depot is filled to the brim and she is working off that right now.

Welcome Danielle and Baby :YMHUG:

 

She did eat my mom gave her some of the meow mix that they had left from switching the food plus we gave her a few treats

 

is the meow mix wet or dry? and is it gravy based on pate? what kind of treats?

oh yes, we will talk with you all about food and what is best to feed a cat and why.........don't worry, you will soon be indoctrinated! and yes, I guarantee after tonight, you will "drink the kool-aid"! if you don't know what that means, look it up -

it goes back to the 1970's and Jim Jones who headed up a cult and had his followers drink the koolaid laced with poison so they would all kill themselves and they did. of course we just want you to drink it, without poison in it.... :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

The Meow mix was dry but I just went back over to my moms and gave her some wet meow mix its called savory morsels chicken and shrimp in gravy. Hope that was ok to give her?

 

Danielle

It was a miracle that you and Jamie were there at the same time and she reached out to you and a miracle that you LISTENED!! Smart woman!!

I've worked some of these low numbers like this and they can last over 16 hours. When the syrup wears off, numbers can come back down. It's really important that you get some canned cat food in her. The dry food takes a really long time to bring up the BG and can then affect it for three days after so you want to avoid it. Some good ones to try would be:

Fancy Feast
Chicken and Tuna Feast (flaked)
Salmon and Whitefish Feast
Trout Feast
Tuna Feast
Tuna and Mackerel Feast

These are about 8% calories from carbs so they aren't real LC and they aren't HC which will also wear off. Or if you have regular canned food there, tell us what it is and we'll let you know. But she needs to have some food in her, too, to help keep the BG up.

I have to strongly advise you that if her BG comes back down, I think you need to go to the ER. They can put her on a dextrose drip and get the number up. That is safer then fighting low numbers all night long especially if she hasn't been tested much before.

edited to add: I don't have the number of carbs on the wet meow mix.

 

Might be time for another test. When was the last one?

 

I tested her again after she ate the wet meow mix and she was at BG-50

 

Danielle, You have two choices.

1. Stay up, probably all night testing and giving Baby small amounts of food and syrup to bring her numbers up.

2. Take her to the vet and have them put her on a dextrose (sugar) drip to bring the numbers up.

Marje said to you earlier:

and

She's not coming up much. Rub some syrup on her gums this time. And give her a 1 teaspoon of the wet food.

 

I gave her some wet food the meow mix 1.5 teaspoons. That BG-50 was while she was eating the wet food so My mom is going to watch her for the night and I am going to go in the morning when she leaves for work to keep an eye on her and continue to test her. My mom said she would call me if anything goes wrong or if she starts acting funny.

 

She really needs to be over 100 before you stop testing for the night.

Or take her to the vet.

Those are my 2 recommendations.

 

Ok I will make sure her BG gets to 100

:thumbup

 

What time was this mornings shot?
What time was the BG number at the vet?
What time was the 37 BG at home?

Here is some of the information. Times are approximate.
AMPS n/a (not home testing yet) 10 AM 4U Lantus
+5 (3 pm) 53 at vet
+6 (4 pm) 37 after home from vet - gave maple syrup
+6.5 (4:30) 27 - gave maple syrup
+10.5 (8:35 pm) 44
+11 (9:08 pm) 33
+11.25 (9:16 pm) 1/4 ml syrup
+11.75 (9:45 pm) 51
+12 (9:55 pm) 1/4 ml syrup
+12.5 (10:30 pm) 50 1.5t food ( Meow mix canned chicken and shrimp in gravy)

 

she got 4units at 10am and her test was at 3pm at the vet which was the BG-53
I got the BG-37 at about 4pm
I got the BG-27 at about 4:30 pm
and well you had the rest down

 

We need another test please Danielle.

Because we all live in different time zones, we express the hours as time since the shot. Shot time = 0, 1 hour later = +1, 2 hours later = +2, 13 hours later = +13.

Do you understand?

Based on that, here are today's numbers so far.

AMPS n/a (not home testing yet) 10 AM 4U Lantus
+5 (3 pm) 53 at vet
+6 (4 pm) 37 after home from vet - gave maple syrup
+6.5 (4:30) 27 - gave maple syrup
+10.5 (8:35 pm) 44
+11 (9:08 pm) 33
+11.25 (9:16 pm) 1/4 ml syrup
+11.75 (9:45 pm) 51
+12 (9:55 pm) 1/4 ml syrup
+12.5 (10:30 pm) 50 1.5t food ( Meow mix canned chicken and shrimp in gravy)

 

Danielle, I just really want to tell you that you are doing a great job tonight!!

Gotta just mention this... I showed Danielle how to test.. in the parking lot at the vet.... both of us standing in the rain!.... I quickly tested Jupiter to show her how... did not explain it or anything! I am amazed that she knew how to test just from that, without asking any questions, and just went home and tested her cat herself! She must be a quick learner! (she stayed there and chatted with me for a while in the rain - I am so glad she was willing to do that to help her cat!)

So glad you took the meter and went home and tested on your own. That was the first big step. Second big step, was coming here to ask for help. You did that too. Now you can get your cat on the right track! Thank you Danielle, for taking the time and listening to what I had to say, and taking the advice to come here. I can tell you really care about your cat, just like all of us here, so you will fit in here so nicely Welcome to the FDMB family.

 

Danielle,

Jamie thought that the cat, and your internet connection were not in the same home. Is that true? Is there anyway to get Baby, you, the testing supplies and food in the same location as your internet connection? Even temporarily?

 

My mom just tested her and her BG is 70

 

Danielle

You got the 50 at about +12. That's a long time in low numbers.

Most cats that are newly diagnosed and on insulin do what we call "bouncing". Usually, they have been at high BGs for some time when they are diagnosed and so their body gets used to the high numbers as normal. When you start giving insulin and numbers come down, the liver panics and releases counterregulatory hormones and glucagon to drive up the BG. I would have expected Baby to bounce by now.

On top of that, Lantus is a depot insulin which allows it to give long duration curves. One shot builds upon the previous and you get a cumulative effect. If you imagine a bucket that you continually add water to; at some time, the bucket is too full and the excess spills over. That's an oversimplification of the action of Lantus but it's enough to demonstrate that when the Lantus "bucket" is full....the excess spills over and numbers come way down.

A higher dose can affect up to six subsequent cycles. So you might see low numbers for another cycle.

 

We need another test please Danielle.

We need to test every 30 minutes for a bit longer.

When was the last time you gave her food?

AMPS n/a (not home testing yet) 10 AM 4U Lantus
+5 (3 pm) 53 at vet
+6 (4 pm) 37 after home from vet - gave maple syrup
+6.5 (4:30) 27 - gave maple syrup
+10.5 (8:35 pm) 44
+11 (9:08 pm) 33
+11.25 (9:16 pm) 1/4 ml syrup
+11.75 (9:45 pm) 51
+12 (9:55 pm) 1/4 ml syrup
+12.5 (10:30 pm) 50 1.5t food ( Meow mix canned chicken and shrimp in gravy)[/quote]
+13.75 (11:45 pm) 70

 

Wow you all really know what ur talking about that is awesome I am so glad I met Jamie to be introduced to you! Sry I took so long my phone was dying and it's hard to do his on my phone lol baby is doing good she's relaxing but she is very alert thank goodness

 

Danielle,

When did you last feed her?

One more test please. Depending on what the test is, maybe more food.

 

Hi Daniellle

You're doing great.

Unless you take her to the emergency vet, you're going to be up most, if not all, of the night with this, so a pot of coffee or strong tea may help.

If your phone/internet access becomes unavailable, you'll need to continue with test, syrup/feed, wait, repeat.

 

I'm so sry my phone isn't posting my comments for some reason 3rd times a charm

 

I'm so sry my phone isn't posting my comments for some reason 3rd times a charm

 

She just had some more and some treats she's doing good she's cuddling w me on the couch

 

One more test please. To see if she has gone higher or dropped again.

 

The message board is being a bit wonky tonight.

You may need to log in again - check in the upper right, light blue band to see if it says Login or Logout.

If it says Login, your connection was dropped and you need to sign in again.

 

Hello all so sorry about last night my phone kept closing my open apps for some reason gotta love technology. Baby is doing very good just checked her again and got a BG-105. We did not give her the morning dose as we don't want her to bottom out again like yesterday. Well I'm gonna take a nap didn't get much sleep lol

 

yep, no shot this morning and yes, get some sleep

 

Ok you did great last night! And made the right decision no insulin this morning.

Now that the crisis is passed, let's go over some basics so you can better understand all this.

1) Food/nutrition - Now, as far as diet - definitely dump the dry food (if you are feeding any) and if the vet recommends purchasing prescription food like DM just say "no thank you". ALL cats, and especially those with diabetes, do best on a species appropriate diet that is high in protein and low in carbs. Dry food DOES NOT fit that bill and DM food, even canned, just really isn't that great as far as quality. Most here on FDMB feed low carb/high protein canned, raw bought from a pet store or they make there own.

Here is a link to a site by a vet "Dr. Lisa DVM" ... who also posts on this board from time to time ... www.catinfo.org

If you look on the right side of her site, she has a food comparison chart to help you figure out what food you want to get based on the carb %.

You want to keep the carb % below 10% and around 7% is great. (Personally, I stay between 0-6% carbs.)

While on her site, you can read about in-depth info. on nutrition and how to make raw food, etc.

Here is another link that will give more information about food/nutrition

Nutrition/food info

The good thing with feeding your diabetic cat this way, is that it is ALSO good for any non-diabetic cat too. All your cats can safely eat the same food without worry and it may save you some costs and headaches of having to do separate feedings and keeping track of what they are eating.


The meow mix with gravy is a high carb food and was perfect for last night. You don't want to feed this as her every day food because it is too high in carbs and you will have to adjust the insulin too much because of the food. I suggest if you still have this food, to keep it - label it high carb and separate it from the low carb food you will use. If you have another incident like last night, you can break it out and use it.

2) Home Testing - Thanks to Jamie - you are now a pro at home testing and it's self explanatory why home testing is critical in monitoring diabetes and BG levels. So kudos to you on this.

3) Insulin - you are using Lantus and that's great - Lantus is an excellent insulin for cats. My only concern is that you are at a higher starting dose than we would like to see.

Could you tell us a few things:

When was your cat diagnosed?
What was the starting insulin dose?
How did you get at 3 / 4 units of insulin?

We normally recommend a starting dose of 1 unit or even 1/2 (0.50) units twice a day. This the the start low, go slow approach. The reason we recommend starting out this way, is to avoid the hypo incident you had last night. By giving a higher dose 3 or units at a time, you may have skipped over the ideal dose which could be 1.5, 1.0 or even 1/2 unit.

As you become familiar with this board, you will see we have several forums here. The health forum (where you are now) is a great place to get started. Once you get comfortable, create a spreadsheet to track the BG's, insulin doses etc, we suggest posting on the Lantus Tight Regulation Forum. There are lots of folks there who can help tweak the lantus dose. We can do it here, but there is always someone on that forum.

That leads me to next steps and now what. Keep testing and if she is 150 or below, at this time, I would suggest NOT giving insulin. Seeing that she was 107 this morning with all the high carb, gravy and syrup given, that is fantastic to see.

It can also mean that if you change her food to 100% low carb wet only, the need for insulin may no longer be necessary. It is possible to control her diabetes with food. Now that doesn't mean you stop testing and monitoring her. It just means she may not need insulin, or may only need a very small amount.

If you do need to give insulin, I also suggest starting over and following the start low, go slow approach and restart her by giving 1/2 unit at a time. This will help to keep her safe and hopefully avoid another incident.

Ok - here are links for you:

How to Get a SS and Link in your Signature -- viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207

Help with signatures/links/images/avatars here! -- viewtopic.php?f=6&t=486


Board index » INSULIN SUPPORT GROUPS (ISG) » LANTUS (GLARGINE) - Tight Regulation - viewforum.php?f=9

In this forum there are several posts that are starred/called stickies that I suggest you read - it will give you details about Lantus, how to use it, etc. that will be invaluable

Dr. Lisa's website - www.catinfo.org

Gives you the food chart comparison list, explains why dry food is bad for cats, and a host of other valuable information about vaccinations, UTI's, etc.



Please come back and ask questions - we are here to help and will do everything we can to help you and Baby!

 

Welcome Danielle and Baby!

You handled everything so good last night :thumbup :thumbup Glad Baby is safe today!

I get a chill thinking what could have happened if you had not met Jamie and Jupiter nailbite_smile

Good job on you too Jamie!! You were awesome!!

Jane

 

fantastic job last night. if God did not intervene and send JAMIE to you. I truly believe your cat would not be with you right now. Thank you so much for listening to someone you never met and for taking the initiative to come to the board for help. this also saved your cat from possible death.

it was a close call for sure had not all these things happened.

PLEASE DO NOT give any insulin before checking in here with numbers and waiting for an answer on what to do.

also, i would like to extend an invitation to you to attend our annual get together of people from the board at my place on august 17th. cats welcome.

come meet some great people and talk cats. learn everything you will ever want to know. we do a pot luck cause so many come. You live close enough that you can make it.
would love to meet you as I am sure all those attending would also. we are all family. It is nice to be able to put a face behind the name and cat.

let me know,OK

AGAIN Great job last night

 

Thank you all soooo much for you advice and support, I really do believe Jamie & Jupiter were my saving grace and I am very grateful to have met them yesterday!!!

 

I would be very inclined to read the riot act to the vet's office, especially the tech ... except diplomacy can work better than ripping someone a new one (no matter how much they deserve it!!!)

That being the case, I think it might be useful to print out the American Animal Hospital Association 2010 Diabetes Treatment guidelines, read them over thoroughly yourself, then provide them to the vet's office with a note saying you understand how difficult it can be to stay up to date on numerous conditions for numerous species ... followed by a succinct statement of what happened last night.

The combination of the guidelines, plus a description of what happened, should get the vet's attention, as it could be considered malpractice to have instructed you to shoot that high dose without home testing, if you were the kind of person that wanted to do that.

If you should decide you need to fire that vet, there are Vet Interview Topics in my signature link.

 

Danielle,

So glad to hear that Baby is ok. You did a great job last night and helped Baby so much.

How are you doing? You kind of had a 'trial by fire' with doing all the testing you did last night. I shudder to think what may have happened to Baby if you had not met Jamie and she had not given you her spare meter.

We kind of hit you hard and fast last night, not giving you too much information to catch you up on how we work. We were trying to stick to the essentials which were feeding Baby some high carb food, testing to see what the numbers were and making sure she wasn't dropping again.

You did a fantastic job last night! Kudos to you for sticking with us.

You have been given a lot of information in other posts already, so take you time to review it and come back and ask questions.

We are like a family here and you are now a member of this wonderful, caring, giving extended. Welcome Danielle and Baby.

 

Hello all,
I'm am so sorry I haven't been on to update everyone on Baby the last few days have been hectic. Thank you for all the help and caring as Saturday night was long and crazy!!! Baby is doing GREAT!!! We are still testing her everyday to check her BG levels. They are as follows:

Sunday morning BG-in the 100's I think like 102 or 120 so many numbers I'm getting confused lol
Sunday night BG-235 so we gave her 2units
Monday morning BG-87 no Insulin
Monday night (tonight) BG-77 so again no Insulin

If not for meeting Jamie & Jupiter along with all the help and advice from you all I would of probably lost my Baby Girl :cry:
Hopefully some day soon I will be able to say that with Diet and the help and advice from you all she may not need Insulin.
I have been doing some research on all the information I was given and you sure can learn a lot.
I am very Happy and Grateful to have met everyone on here and look forward to future conversations with everyone! :thumbup

 

We need to find a dose that you can give consistently every 12 hours. Obviously, that 2U dose is too much since you have to keep skipping because of low numbers.

I would not recommend more than 0.5U for now. With a bit more testing and a few days on that dose, maybe we will need to increase that dose.

What food is she getting fed now?