Does anyone feed raw frozen mice?

Hi,

I'm new to the group and have been trying to figure out what I should and should not feed Memphis, who was recently diagnosed as diabetic. We are attempting to control with food, and not use insulin. He is not overweight.

Cats were designed to eat mostly small prey like rodents, birds and reptiles, along with some bugs. I see all these diets designed to be "like" the natural prey, but I don't see anyone running around saying "feed them mice!!!" I don't understand why we don't feed the natural prey. Cats who live outside eat natural prey, why do we not give it to our house cats?

Is there some reason you can't go out and buy frozen feeder mice commercially grown for reptiles and feed them to your cats? Is there any nutritional reason why you can't do this? I understand feeder mice are rather expensive, but you could put them into your food rotation. I am too squeamish to feed live mice to my cats, but I would have no problem feeding pre-killed mice to them.

Merlin

 

I can't remember who it was right now, but I do know that there was at least one member here who fed frozen mice to her cats, so yes, it's possible

Mostly we just try to mimic the nutritional composition of a mouse....low carb, high protein diets are what's best for a sugarcat. There's lots of great information on Dr. Lisa Peirson's website, Feeding Your Cat-Know the basics of Feline Nutrition which includes a chart with most of the commercially available foods and their nutritional breakdown

We want them eating less than 10% carbs and get as much water into them as possible to help protect their kidneys

 

Hi Merlin...I like the name! Anyway, that is a very interesting question. I work for a raptor rehab center and of course we feed frozen, "food grade" mice and rats. Our supply is from a company in California. When we get them, we thaw them in warm water and then we cut them open to remove the intestines, liver, etc. before we serve the rodents to the raptors. It is kind of funny but when they are in the wild, they will eat everything but when they are with us, they will tear it open and fling the guts away before eating the rest of the mouse so we do it for them (easier to clean the aviaries). Nothing like being served on a platter, huh! So if you were planning on something like this, I would make sure that it comes from a reputable company that ensures "food grade" mice and I suggest that you remove the intestines at least.

One member that I know @Bobbie And Bubba kitty goes out almost everyday to hunt. Bubba is an excellent hunter and always gets his mouse! Bobbie tried to see if a mouse affects his BG and I don't think it did but she can respond to your question. I think if anything, she noticed his BG number would go higher when she would try to keep him inside when he wanted to go out.

 

Hey there! Yes Bubba was quite the hunter. I have decided to keep him inside now as there were so many variables outside that I could not control, like if someone nearby left out dry food to feed feral cats, foxes, and just that he would roam so far and I was having to get my coat and boots on to go find him to test him as I test often with TR. His wings got clipped two weeks ago this Monday.

That said, he was good for 2-3 mice a day. After some research, I too am inclined to say that the mouse is a perfect food. Approximately 30 calories for live ones, even with some seeds in their intestinal tract, they are still under 10% carbs which is what we want our sugar cats to eat. I did not notice an increase in his BG's while he was a hunter and I believe that is due to from what I have read about cats and hunting, that they expend a lot of calories hunting. So, what they take in ( mouse ) they burn up in pursuit of the next mouse.

I did not know that you could buy frozen mice. So, I am very glad that @Merlin tagged me. I have been saying "why can't they make mouse flavored cat food"?? I will have to look into that as a treat for Bubba. He misses his hunting and has bee promised as soon as he is OTJ, I will let him back outside. Yesterday, he was trying very hard to make that happen.

 

Hi Cindi and Bobbie!

I have also been saying for years, "why can't they make a canned mouse diet for cats?"
You can buy frozen mice on line or in some pet stores like Petsmart. They are generally sold to snake owners. The mice come a range of sizes, the baby mice are called "pinkies".

One of my cats has outdoor privileges. He occasionally leaves "gifts" of prey bits outside the garage door. He generally starts at the head and eats his way down. Often we will find the lower half or just the innards, sometimes a foot or tail. I was thinking feral cats probably eat the whole mouse, so throwing a frozen mouse whole into a blender and making a mouse smoothie sounds like it should would work for them a house cat.

That is funny about the raptors needing to have their food gutted for them. How quickly the animals become spoiled when they have human servants!

Remember the book/movie Never Cry Wolf about the guy studying Arctic wolves (Farley Mowat)? He set out to prove that wolves could live on mice and other small rodents, they did not need to kill livestock to survive. He did this by eating these rodents himself. He didn't do too well, until he ate them like wolves do, that is, the whole rodent, not rodent fillet.

Cats were designed to eat the whole prey, they don't just consume rodent steaks cooked out over a grill (as my cats would like!). So if they ate the whole mouse, they would get a small amount of carbohydrate from the contents of the mouse gut. One might argue that if a mouse is fed only grain, then it would have a higher carb content than a wild mouse, and that might make commercial mice unacceptable, although even then a mouse gut can't hold much grain. Presumably though, Purina Mouse Food is better formulated than that.

Merlin

 

Since you are relatively new, thought I would give you some additional information. What insulin are you using?

Good Reading: This is a must read. It is an excellent 18 page informative document that covers feline health and nutrition. Don't take short cuts and read it all. www.catinfo.org Also read other postings and their spreadsheets. You will learn a lot more from others.

Home Testing: Here, we all home test and congratulations to you for wanting to home test too. It is mandatory to understand how your kitty is reacting to the insulin and the dose. You will want to test before each shot and some additional test in between the 12 hour cycle when you can. The main reason to home test is to keep your kitty safe and to find an effective dose. Find a place in your home where you will always perform the test and give lots of hugs and treats before and after testing. There are many videos showing you how to test. Hometesting Links and TipsHere is a picture of where you test on your kitty. http://s106.photobucket.com/user/chupie_2006/media/testingear/sweetspot.jpg.html

Here is another good link on Home Testing:http://www.felinediabetes.com/bg-home-test.htm

Meters: There are many different meters. There is a pet meter called the Alpha Trak2 and human meters. Some use the pet meter because it is what the vets use so the numbers will match up. The meter and strips are expensive though. Most folks buy AT strips from ADW. Most use human meters that can be purchased at any pharmacy. It typically reads a little lower than the pet meter but we have ways of compensating for those lower numbers. Many use Walmart's brand, Relion Micro, Relion Prime or Relion Confirm. The Micro and Confirm only needs a tiny drop of blood but the strips are a little more expensive than the Prime which needs a little bigger drop of blood. They cost around $15 and the strips are around 35 cents each. The AT strips are usually around $1 each at the vet’s office.

Lancets: Lancets are used to poke the ear to get blood for the meters. There are many different sizes lancets (gauges). It is recommended when you are first starting out to use a 26-28 gauge because it is a larger size and will make a bigger hole, hence easier to draw blood. Also, it would be a good idea to pick up Neosporin WITH pain reliever to apply on the edge of the ears and don't forget to alternate ears. It is a bit scary at first to start poking the ear, but eventually it will become easier for both you and your kitty. Some people even draw blood from the paw pad.

Spreadsheets: Our spreadsheet instructions are here. If you look at the signatures of the members here, you will see a link to their kitty’s spreadsheets. We keep track of all our tests. This is basically a place to collect data and help you to determine patterns, doses, etc. It also aids those that may be helping you to better understand your kitty. To further my knowledge on diabetes, I would make it a habit to read other kitty’s postings and spreadsheets. Even though they are all different and will be different than your kitty, it was still invaluable information.

Food: There are many reasons why we are here but one is due to feeding dry cat food which is high in carbs. You will want to consider changing your food to wet, low carb food. It is recommended to feed food that is under 10% carbs and I found with Merlin that right around 4-5% worked for him. Here is a list of cat food to choose from food chartyou will note that the food with fish are lower in carbs however it is recommended that you only give fish once a week due to its mercury content. Many use Fancy Feast, 9 Lives, Friskies, Wellness, Werurva etc. This list can also be found in www.catinfo.org If you are already giving insulin and you have not transitioned to wet, low carb cat food, be sure to test while you are transitioning. This is because by changing to low carb food, it could decrease your kitty’s number by 100 points or more. One last thing, many of us add water to the wet food so your kitty is getting plenty of water to flush out the toxins and to keep them hydrated.

Hypo Kit: Always good to be prepared for possible hypo events (low blood sugar) which means that your cat has reached dangerously low numbers. It can be fatal, hence, the importance of home testing and collecting data in a spreadsheet. In each of the Insulin forums are stickie’s labeled Hypo Links. Here is one: How to Handle a Hypo. Please print and post on your refrigerator so everyone in your household is aware of hypo symptoms. You will want to create your hypo kit that would include and not limited to; extra testing strips, honey/karo/maple syrup, high carb food, medium carb food, vet information, etc. Hopefully you will never need it but probably at some point in time, you will need to deter from going too low.

Ketones: Diabetic cats are susceptible to diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA). It is best to buy testing strips that will measure (if any) ketones in the urine. One brand is Ketostix which can be found at Walmart or any pharmacy. You will want to test periodically unless you continue to get high numbers, then it is suggested to test more frequently. Ketostix typically costs around $10 for 100.

Treats: It is always nice to have treats available for your kitty especially when testing or when they decide not to eat. I like using Pure Bites. I have found it at Petsmart and other pet stores. It is freeze dried and the only ingredient is the meat i.e. chicken, duck, etc. If your cat likes it, then I would go to the dog section where it is cheaper than the cat package. It is bigger chunks but no problem in breaking it up. Another option is to use Bonita Flakes where you can find at your local Asian market. There is a link here somewhere in this site that has a list of low carb treats.

Injections: Most folks here use one of these main insulins; Lantus, Levemir and Prozinc. Two hours prior to your insulin shot, you will not want your kitty to eat. Then you will test and then feed. It is best for your kitty to eat a little before your shoot. I shoot while he is eating. The reason why you do not want your kitty to eat two hours prior to your test is because food elevates BG numbers. So you do not want to dose based on a food influenced number. Here is a link on how to give injections.http://www.felinediabetes.com/injections.htm

Note: Please check your insulins as there are some (the harsher ones like Humulin, Novolin, Vetsulin, etc.) that would be best to allow additional time to eat i.e. 20 minutes.

If you have any questions, just holler.

 

That's what Bubba did. One time I saw him swallow one whole, YUCK! Rarely did he leave anything behind and if it did, I wonder if it was because he had all ready consumed 2-3 in the field before he brought one up to the house to eviscerate.

 

We did have one member, Michelle/Crushy, who fed raw mice. Actually Crushy was on a raw mouse diet before his diabetes diagnosis, due to crystals. She did eventually switch him to a canned wet food diet. Been a while since she's posted.

We had another member Tracy who kitty Leo (GA)used to spend time at her parents farm when she was away for work. He was a well known mouser there and Tracy once posted a video of him eating a mouse whole. Gulp.

 

Loving his patch. Bluebeard Bubba!!!! Ahoy!!!!

 

Never fed them to my cat, but here at the state park, we feed them to snakes at our nature center regularly. I'll find out where we order them from.

We call them "mouse-sicles"

 

I must have strange cats. My last lot used to bring mice into the kitchen and drop them.....then watch them scurrying around until I could get it outside. I missed one once and it lived quite happily in my washing machine. I didn't know it at the time, it was only when it stopped working and the repair man found cat food in the electrics!!! My current lot just like to play with them, they tease them mercilessly and pick them up and drop them until they die of fright. Once they stop moving they lose interest. I stop them now if I see them do it.

 

Huumm...I was just thinking from the safety of feeding frozen rats and mice... It is not in vain that we shouldn't freeze chickens whole or ungutted fish... They don't last. The freezing reduces the advance of bacteria and fungus propagation, but doesn't stop it. I think that might be why the raptors remove the guts in captivity, but would eat them in the wild... Huumm...
I don't know about the frozen mice... Lol...

 

Now, there's dedication!


(@Bobbie And Bubba - I'm well impressed. )



Mogs
.

 

This is where we buy our mousicles.

http://www.rodentpro.com/catalog.asp?prod=3&label=frozen_mice

 

Thanks for that link. Might have to get my boy some.

 

@Bobbie And Bubba - Then tie the mouse to a string which is tied to a stick; then run around the house with it. Bubba would love that.

 

That's a good alternative to hunting!

 

I saw them at a pet store where they sell them to people who have snakes. I believe the brand was Rodentpro.

 

Are you in the US? I have been researching where to find the raw foods, I found this source, Hare Today, that others on another forum recommended. It creeps me out to look through their "products" but they come highly recommended.

How interesting- I didn't think a snake would take a dead prey! You learn something new everyday!

 

Yes, I have seen Hare Today products, I think they had them as well at the store where I saw RodentPro. Yes, I am in the U.S., Central Ohio.

Yes, the on line catalog of products is unsettling. But like I said, I couldn't feed live ones. I opened a package of the "Large" mice from RodentPro. Each mouse is individually wrapped and they came in a box of 4. Didn't much like looking at the frozen ones in person either.

The store manager told me that if you leave them out to thaw, they can explode. Since I was going to grind them up frozen, that should not be an issue.

Still trying to decide if I'm going to purchase a Ninja smoothie maker to grind them up.

 

GROSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


.

 

OMG!
I once gave that idea a thought but abandoned it!

 

My thoughts exactly... it's bad enough having a kitty smorgasboard in a large portion of my refrigerator. I just don't think I could fill the freezer too and take the chance of an explosion.

 

I don't think they will explode. We get frozen mice and rats for the raptors and we just put them in warm water to thaw them on the day that we are going to feed them. Once thawed, we refrigerate them and feed them to the raptors that night. We go through about 500 rodents a day and they have not exploded.

 

We've never had one explode. We just let them thaw on the counter for a while. And the snakes don't care if they are a little cold. If we need them quick, we sometimes use a blow dryer to speed up the process.

 

Has anybody mentioned that you "reptile guys" are a little weird.....LOL

I think I've heard everything....blowdrying a frozen mouse

 

Lol, that's nothing Chris. About ten years ago, we had a naturalist that was pretty "unique". I walked in one day, and she had cut out a paper dress that was " mouse sized", and she had dressed up the mouse and was putting on a puppet show for her staff. I have to admit it was pretty funny... Oddly, today she holds a very high position with the NWF. I often wonder how much fun her staff meetings are!

 

Just when I thought I had heard just about everything on this board!

 

LOL! I live to entertain!

 

I've had wierd things in my fridge before, but hubby might draw the line at thawed mousies. I have to ask...where do the cats eat? I'm like, a cat servant. I don't insist my kids eat in the kitchen. They want to eat where we are. If we're in the living room, I feed them there. Put a paper towel on the floor and then the dish.

Carl, I think that the naturalist dressing up the mouse is hilarious but grisly..it's probably akin to Gallows Humor. Natural food is best for the animals so humans learn to cope ...if you don't laugh, you cry. Tension has to go somewhere. Better out than in. The hard part for me would be looking at the mouse's face.

 

Polly has her own room, where she eats all her meals. On the other side of the room is her LB. She has a chair from a salon to sleep on, which she never sleeps on, and an armoire where her food is stored. Hmmmm, her room is nicer than mine!