Ok I am almost through my first curve since changing to 2 units. see spread sheet for numbers. Not on the 2 hr marks as we were foiled by the landscaper and she went under the bed. They seem to be all over and of course the vet recommends increasing the dose. I on the other hand have done a lot of research and am inclined to change her wet food from Purina DM. Based on what I read here, I was going to go with fancy feast Flaked fish and shrimp but am now thinking TIKI CAT Puka Puka Luau as I am concerned about a fish based diet since in the wild, cats don't fish. (this one is chicken and supposedly zero carb calories) Any thoughts or experiences? I would monitor a bit closer first few days to see what levels go to. Also have an issue with dry kibble being free fed. I know I have to either remove or change it but my vet advised I don't do that yet. Any thoughts on the Young again ZERO? I am thankful to all of you who have given me sound advice so far and those that have talked me out of my tree. I am still anxiety ridden and feel responsible for littles condition as she ate dry food only for quite some time. todays constant testing has made her hate me. I just hope she comes to bed tonight!!
The numbers are not really 'all over'. It looks like things will have pretty much followed a curve as expected. 351 and 399 are pretty close to the same thing, and it is not uncommon for there to be a bit of an increase after the shot if the insulin has not started having an impact yet. The lowest point that you captured was 222 at +5 , then the numbers started heading back up. With only one day on the spreadsheet, it is hard to really have a full picture of things, but based just on the one day, it looks like an increase is needed. If she has been on that dose since 10/9 as your signature says, that is quite a long time at that dose. Dose increases can be made every few days when the numbers warrant it. If you are ready to make the switch to low-carb wet food, you could certain go ahead and do that before adjusting the dose to see what impact it has. I suspect there will be a pretty big impact, especially if you get rid of that Purina One dry food! The Tiki Cat you mentioned is a great option... if she will eat it. My girls wouldn't. You may have to go through several kinds before finding what she likes. I understand how hard it is to transition them from having eaten dry food their entire lives to eating wet food, but I can testify that it is possible with persistence. For many months, I had to sprinkle a little dry food on top of Mia's wet food to get her to even touch it. She still will not touch her wet food until I sprinkle a little crumbled up PureBites freeze dried chicken on it. The only dry food she gets is a few kibbles (like 4 or 5) as her testing treat, when she wants one. She does not always even eat them. If you are going to keep using dry food, I would definitely suggest switching to a lower carb option. There are several threads where Young Again has been discussed. You could search for 'Young Again' (maybe only search titles) and probably find several to review. The bottom line is that the Young Again Zero options are the lowest carb dry foods available, however, many cats have issues with runny stinking poop or even diarrhea. Some have it right away. Some have it all the sudden from a new bag when they had eaten several other bags without a problem (Mia fell in this group). Some may never have it. It's one of those things where you won't know if that is going to happen to you without trying it and finding out. Another option is Dr. Elsey's Clean Protein Chicken. It has between 4 and 5% carbs. That is what I give Mia for her treats. Testing is 'traumatic' in the very beginning, but it becomes easier more quickly than you would think if you keep it up and apply the tips you find here. And, she will not hate you for it!
I will say that my cats LOVED Tiki Cat! As in had to separate them into different rooms to eat so one wouldn't hog it all loved it. It's expensive and not a pate, but my cats thought it was awesome! Couldn't hurt to buy a can or two and see if you really want to feed it. You could also do that along with some other things to keep the price down. You can feed fish still if you want, but maybe just once a week or so? I know how easy it is to beat yourself up over this, but really don't! None of us knew that dry food was bad before we got here and how would we? No one talks about it unless you're actively searching it out, and why would you? It never even occurred to me that it might be bad! I figured everyone fed it and they surely wouldn't put food in the pet store that wasn't good. How was I to know? How were you? I know we all beat ourselves up (I sure did) but in the end, you hav eto focus on what you are doing RIGHT. So many people euthanize a diabetic cat...but you didn't. You came here, got advice, are planning on switching to a good food, are committed to testing and giving insulin shots, and are taking great care of your baby! Little is so lucky to have you in her life!
Thank you so much for your response and your kind words. I am so mad that pet food companies get away with this. I am a vegetarian so I actually thought maybe they could be too. Boy was I wrong! Do you have any opinions on the fancy feast lowest carb ones? I don’t want to be cheap but yeah it is expensive. I am going to try tiki starting tomorrw morning so if god forbid she goes hypo it won’t be the middle of the night. As for the dry it’s tough as I travel and my other kitty is so used to it. Should I just pull it? And people euthanize a diabetic!?! Omg what is wrong with them!
Thank you for your advice. Do you think o am making a mistake not taking the dose up right away? Maybe I am too optimistic but i have read so much on how diet can do wonders that I’m hoping eventually I can fix this with just food. My vet told me that she should be one the same doses for weeks at a time to see results as her body needs to get used to processing the insulin. That’s why I waited 2 weeks. This is stressful and confusing. I guess I will do the 3 dose thing with new food and decide then? Her last test + 11 ( and a half) was just now and was 460. She is really stressed
I think that if you are ready to switch to low-carb food now, you could go ahead and do that to see what the impact is before raising the dose. The food switch could drop her glucose quite a bit, so being on the lower dose gives you a little safety net. As you said, you will need to monitor her during the transition to make sure she does not drop so much that even the lower dose is a problem. It is not true that she has to stay on the same ProZinc dose for WEEKS at a time. The most I would stay on a dose is one week, and I only say that long because you are just getting started. Over time, you will learn her reactions to the insulin, and you will have a better feel for how long you should hold doses. It is a good idea to hold a dose at least two or three days, because it does take a little time to really see the impact of a dose, but it most certainly does not take weeks. What do you mean when you say "I will do the 3 dose thing"?
I read here to keep on same dose for 3 cycles before you change. Do you recommend that or longer.? Technically that would be a day and a half. Again I am so grateful for all of you that respond. I could not do this without you guys - and wine Lol
Oh, okay. I wasn't sure if you meant you were going to give 3 doses in a day or go to 3 units or what. As I mentioned before, I think it is a good idea to hold a dose at least two or three days, because it does take a little time to really see the impact of a dose. Once you have been at this awhile, you will have a feel for the way she reacts to the insulin, and you will be better able to decide things like how long to hold a dose. Again, though, if you are making the food switch now, you can wait on the increase to see what the food change does. You will be able to see the impact of the food change pretty quickly, then you can make the dosing decision. (Wine sounds nice.)
By the way ... who’s the beautiful orange baby in your photo. Reminds me of my “orange” a foster that stole my heart. Losr her 18 months ago. I did my damndest. She is missed
so.. I changed the food this AM. one can of Fancy feast fish and shrimp. if you look at my chart from today... I thought we were doing good. The first time i've seen a green since I started this process was at +5. (160) then her + 8 was 433! I realize I probably need to up her food to 1.5 cans per meal for calories sake based on what she was getting calorically and should be getting for her weight. (9lbs) Would more food (protein) help lower or raise BG? I was so happy to see a green and now dejected again and of course with all the poking she hates me again...
oops I realize 160 is not green... but way better than i've seen ever all month. what am I aiming for exactly? ive heard different things her than from the vet
Please don't beat yourself up about the diet. Every cat is different and while we all agree here that dry food is NOT the best or even an appropriate choice for our kitties, I have a 20 year old furry gentleman who is NOT diabetic, ate Whiskas dry food exclusively (less than high quality) for the first 8 years of his life when he lived with my Mom and continued to eat it along with some wet food until he was about 14. While the dry food may be a contributing factor in some cats, it isn't the only factor.
160 to 433. I was hoping for a smaller climb. What numbers am I actually shooting for? And what number would be a no shoot per food?
Yeah that's a big climb, but it's possible she's bouncing. Probable even. Have we explained bouncing to you? It's basically the cat's body sees a low number, freaks out because they aren't used to it, and then jumps high again. I'll try to find the explanation written by Kris in a minute...that explains it so well! It's not great, but it's not really bad either...it's more like inevitable. Yeah, no one likes bouncing but it happens and often it happens more when trying to find a good dose. It's okay! We can help you with it and if Little chooses to be a bouncer, it isn't the end of the word...we have lots of championship bouncers here (Teasel being one!) and we've worked through it. I've seen bouncers go into remission so don't lose heart! Generally, you want yellows for preshot and lovely blues and greens during the middle of the cycle. We tend to think cats in the blues and lower are in healing numbers which allows their pancreas to rest and heal more. A no shoot number is usually under 200 for beginners. I know you're not exactly a beginner, but we don't have much data yet...as you get more data, you can change that.
Ahhh here it is! I apologize if we gave this to you already. Here's what @Kris & Teasel wrote about bouncing. It's excellent! Here's an explanation of what we call "bouncing". It explains why a kitty's BG can go from low to sky high: BG goes low OR lower than usual OR drops too quickly. Kitty's body panics and thinks there's danger (OMG! My BG is too low!). Complex physiologic processes take glycogen stored in the liver (I think of it as "bounce fuel"), convert it to glucose and dump it into the bloodstream to counteract the perceived dangerously low BG. These processes go into overdrive in kitties who are bounce prone and keep the BG propped up varying lengths of time (AKA bouncing). Bounce prone kitty repeats this until his body learns that healthy low numbers are safe. Some kitties are slow learners. Too high a dose of insulin can keep them bouncing over and over until the " bounce fuel" runs out and they crash - ie., have a hypo episode. That's why we worry so much about kitties that have had too high a starting dose prescribed by the vet and the owner isn't home testing.
Geez bouncing? What on earth is that?? I want to heal her little pancreas!! Just did her pre shot test so + 12 is 451. I am going to increase her food tomorrow was afraid to do too much today since it’s a big change and was worried about a crash. Do you by think upping her calories I should expect higher or lower on the same 2 u of Prozinc? Jut want to be ready and try to unseats d what is going on. Thank you so much this group has made me not lose my mind and turn into a weeping pile of muck
Typically more food = higher BG, but like so many things, ECID (Every Cat Is Different). And there is also a balance. Too little calories can mess with numbers too. So it's about finding the right calories for your kitty. Does Little need to gain weight, lose weight, or maintain?
I would say gain some. Vet recommends 260 cal day she is now 9 lbs. could use a pound. Of course I may think otherwise when she is sleeping on my face. She also does this weird thing where she attacks her tail and growls. Always has. I am wondering what other neurological thing is going on. Vets have blown it off
You can try zobaline for neurological concerns that may be diabetes related. There is also this thing...I can't remember the name of it....but it's fairly common for indoor kitties (I don't know if that applies to Little) - they get these little twitches or rolls in their back and will often spin around and bite themselves. It's neurological, but also psychological so sometimes antidepressants will help it, I've also heard of it being treated with antiseizure meds, and also finding ways to give a kitty lots of exercise, intellectual challenge, and stimulation, and reducing stress since that can be a trigger. EDIT: okay, I just googled it: feline hyperesthesia a.k.a.twitchy cat syndrome
Lol. Yes I knew that as well but couldn’t think of the name when I wrote before. Just had a swing and a miss with getting blood. Poor thing she is sick of this and I’m about to Dose myself with Xanax. I do t know who this is worse for
Many here order a supplement called Zobaline that contains 3 mg methylcobalamin plus some folate (I'm unsure how much). It's a tasteless, easy to crumble or dissolve tablet that you give once a day in food. https://www.ilifelink.com/zobaline-for_diabetic_cats-3_mg_x_60_tablets.html
New food same 2U insulin dose +5 and +8 today were blue but not that much less than the +5 and +7 on old food with free dry And the +5 on 10/6 when she was only getting 1.5 units of insulin. How long should I wait to see if food change betters the numbers before considering upping the dose of insulin? still confused about the colors on the chart. if I get her consistently blue is that ok or do we want to achieve green?
I would think a couple of days on the new food would be enough, but maybe others can add their thoughts on that. Have you completely changed to low-carb wet food or is the dry food still in the mix? It might be helpful if you put notes on your spreadsheet about when the food change was so that when someone is looking at it, they will see that factor. Dark green is good. If you can get to where she stays say between 75 and 150, it would be great.
I do have that info in my signature. Can you tell me where on the spreadsheet I can add notes if that makes it easier? Also can you tell me what PMPS and AMPS means? I think I may be doing this wrong. I now am seeing AMPS and if that means after meal pre shot I’ve screwed up. All my AMPS AND PMPS readings have been before meals and BEFORE shot as I am injecting as she is eating. Should I be feeding first then getting the read? Her ear is a mess and so am I so going to give her a break till the am feed. Thank you for your caring kindness and responses
Hi Lisa. You are doing this just right! AMPS = morning (AM) pre-shot (PS) number, and PMPS = evening (PM) pre-shot (PS) number. Most of us test our kitties and then, assuming a shootable number, feed them and give the injection while their faces are shoved in the food bowl. Feeding typically results in a slightly higher number, beginning maybe 20 minutes after they eat and lasting for a couple of hours. This inflated number is known as a “food spike,”and it is perfectly normal, the result of the kitty’s body taking in the sugars from the food they have just eaten. For this reason, it’s best not to feed Little for two hours before the pre-shot test: you want a pre-shot number that is “true” and not inflated due to a food spike that will be wearing off.
Thank you so much. I guess I had a brain fart... AMPS. I am so stressed I am over thinking. Do you only feed twice a day at Shot time? That’s what I have been doing but 12 hrs with NO food seems like a long time to me especially when they ( I have 2 kitties so removing the dry effects them both) used to have free dry food available at all hours. I am worried that if she’s hungry and no food is available her little pancreas will produce glucose to compensate for lack of food? Thank you so much for your help this whole group is full of angels ...
I switched both cats over to all wet food when Josie was diagnosed. It made life so much easier! I feed her a 3 oz can of Fancy Feast with each shot (1/2 can with shot and then another 1/2 can about 30 minutes later, but I only break it up like that bc otherwise she throws up!). In the day time, when we’re away at work, I give her 1/4 can at +3 and 1/4 can at +5. We put these snacks in a timer we bought for her, and she is in a room with her food and her own litter box all morning (to keep the other cat away from her food). I can almost always get home at noon to let her out. In the evening, she gets half a can about three hours after her shot. She gets this snack after we get her “before bed” test. I have read that it is often better in their little bodies to get several small meals throughout the day vs a couple of larger meals. I have also read that a) it’s best to give the “large” meal with the shot and b) to try to give most of the cycles’s food in the earlier part of the cycle. It believe that’s bc giving food later in the cycle can shorten the cycle somewhat. The pancreas produces the insulin (or, it should! Our diabetic cats’ pancreases don’t do it very well) that the cells need to take the sugars from the food into the cells themselves so that the cells can do their work. I don’t actually know much about the physiology of it ... but I guess that several smaller meals means fewer sugars to break down all at once, which means less work for a faulty pancreas. I think it’s just overall less taxing to their little systems, just like it is for ours.
I wish I could work my schedule that way but I live alone and couldn’t bear locking her up all day. Do you think it’s bad to only get 2 large meals 12 hours apart? This is all making me so sad. Do you know of any dry food with no carbs that perhaps I can leave a very small amount out during the day
Honestly, sometimes I think Josie prefers having her own room, lol! Please don’t beat yourself up over this. We are all doing the best that we can, and that is all we can ask of ourselves. We gave up the dry food, but I have read about two lower carb ones. I think they are called Young Again and Dr. .... Dr. Something with an E. Maybe Dr. Elsey’s? Something like that.
Many people here get around this by using an automatic feeder - easy if she's your only kitty. The Petsafe 5 is a popular one.
On the right side there is a column for notes. It is the column after the +11 column. I feel my girls 4 times a day, and the leftovers remain out for then to graze on. As Kris said, a lot of people use auto feeders for the mid-day and mid-night meals.
I have two kitties and when my diabetic was diagnosed, I switched them both off of dry food and onto a diabetic friendly diet as I didn't want to end up with two diabetic cats. One is hard enough. I leave wet food out for them to graze all day and it works just fine. If you're afraid they will scarf it all down at once, then the timed feeders are a great option.
And if you're thinking about getting a feeder but want to wait a bit, try freezing a bit of wet food. It'll thaw as the day goes by so it will be available hours later when Little needs a bit of food! It's fine to feed just twice a day if that's all you can manage. I still feed twice a day but mine graze. They usually finish up their food for the day at least 3 hours before their nighttime meal, but they have it available until it's gone. Side note about the scarfing: mine used to eat it all up immediately. Then as they got used to it being available, they ate less right away and now they're at the point where no one scarfs it up immediately. Don't let this get you down, Lisa. We all do the best we can. That's all anyone can ask of us!
Rachel is absolutely right about that! The freezing trick is great, and kitties do usually settle down about eating once they grow confident that food will be available for them later. Earlier in our journey, I used to put food in like six different bowls scattered around the house which also helped slow them down. If they can't see each other eating, they get way less competitive about it. Now I can feed them in just one place because they are used to having the food available, but it was a little bit of a process.
Ok. Here we go. I have changed her food yet again and plan to keep her on this diet. 1 can Tiki cat Puka luau(chicken) and 1/2 can FF fish and shrimp mixed 2x daily. I also upped her insulin dose again to 2 1/2 units at the same time. She has been on this through 4 feeding cycles. Still trying to work my numbers. Please see spreadsheet notes. I feel like I am taking a long time to get her straight and putting her through needless “yuckiness” of course 4 shots ago vet recommended to increase dose to 3 units and I only went up 1/2 unit. Am I making a mistake? Should I up her dose again based on last 4 readings? I am worried that she has been basically unregulated for quite some time and have been giving insulin for 5 weeks. Does it take others this long to get their babies straight?
I suggest 2.5 u again tonight and, numbers permitting, bump up to 2.75 u (eyeballed to the best of your ability) - not 3.0 u. Half a unit increase is too large at the low dose she's getting. You could increase tomorrow or the next day. You've only been at this a month. That's a nanosecond in the time needed to achieve regulation. That can take many, many months (years in some kitties like mine) so patience is what you need in large supply. We say here often that it's a marathon and not a sprint.
Thank you both. I was starting to get sick over the fact that it is taking me too long and doing more damage than good. Any thoughts on daylight savings time. I was thinking to change times of injections by 15 minutes from now till then until I get on correct time schedule.?
You have about an hour’s leeway for dose timing with ProZinc so you could go to the new time in one jump.
