First curve

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (Welcome & Main Forum)' started by NicoleC46237, Feb 14, 2020.

  1. NicoleC46237

    NicoleC46237 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2020
    Would someone please point me to the directions for doing a curve testing? I know I've seen at what hours to test and what I'm looking for but for the life of me I can't find it now that I'm ready to do one this weekend. TIA :)
     
  2. Amy and Socks

    Amy and Socks Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2019
    To do a curve, you would do a bg test every 2 hours for 12 hours, so for example- AM pre-shot, + 2 hours after insulin, + 4 hours, + 6 hours, + 8 hours, + 10 hours, and + 12 hours (PM pre-shot).
     
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  3. Noah & me (GA)

    Noah & me (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2016
    Try and do it in a relaxed atmosphere, stress will make the numbers useless. You want your curve to be on a "typical" day. Is there such a thing when you're poking holes in a cat? :banghead:
     
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  4. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Feed as you normally would. Treats and midday "snacks" included.
     
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  5. NicoleC46237

    NicoleC46237 Member

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    Feb 7, 2020
    Perfect! Thanks everyone!!
     
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  6. Noah & me (GA)

    Noah & me (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2016
    Hi Nicole. Our profiles are not a secret, mine is a bad soap opera, and are meant to be read so that you won't have to list a medical history over and over again. I've seen a lot of hysteria and even self pity over the years and you were none of those things. "This is how you do a curve. Okay, I got it" is not a typical response believe it or not.
    I am going somewhere with this, be patient. I'm comfortable in big city life as is my wife but when we daydream it's about retiring to a small farm with goats, a duck pond and lots of cats and dogs. Sound familiar? I also read the one thing we sometimes don't see enough of here, "I don't do anything half way" that probably explains the absence of drama.
    I hope Lou does well and you stay, human interaction is what makes this place work. :rolleyes: :smuggrin: o_O
     
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  7. NicoleC46237

    NicoleC46237 Member

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    Feb 7, 2020
    I had enough drama in my younger years so I'm all about none of it now :) I hate needles, don't even like getting shots let alone giving them but my life requires them now so I'm gonna pull up my big girl pants and take care of my responsibilities! Thank you for being so supportive and reminding me that I'm strong at a time when I don't always feel like I am. Lou deserves the world and this group is going to help me give it to him. ♡
     
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  8. Noah & me (GA)

    Noah & me (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2016
    Just doing what needs to be done makes you strong. I avoid confrontation but more than once I've heard the "just get another cat" line and boiled over. That's either laziness or just an utter lack of compassion. Have a good weekend, we expect photos of the ducks.
     
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  9. NicoleC46237

    NicoleC46237 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2020
    More often than not people should just not speak but they do anyway lol ;)

    My mom is super excited for those ducks! She does them from day old until 8 weeks then they come to my house. I'll definitely share pics!
     
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  10. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Let us know if there is anything else we can help you with.

    We look at SS (spreadsheets) when asked. Or not if you prefer.
     
  11. NicoleC46237

    NicoleC46237 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2020
    I'm more than happy for anyone to take a look at our SS anytime :) You might see something and have some advise I didn't even know I need! I appreciate this board so much :)
     
  12. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Fairly new, only about 2 weeks since diagnosis.
    Lou has only been on insulin for 10 days so far.
    Eating a good low carb food, the Friskies pates.

    SS look will be a retrospective, looking back through time.

    Here goes.
    1. You need to test during the middle of the cycle, to find out the nadir. That is usually between +5 and +8. ECID (Every Cat is Different) so you need to test and see when YOUR cat's nadir or lowest point in the cycle occurs. +5 is 5 hours after the dose of insulin, +6 is 6 hours after the dose of insulin, etc.
    2. A "before bed test" is good to get, daily. That may be at 8 or 10 am for you, since you work nights. About 3-5 hours after the insulin shot, during the current dosing cycle, is a good time for that "before bed test".
    3. Prozinc dosing changes are based on the difference between the pre-shot tests and the nadir. No mid-cycle tests, so no idea if Lou needs a dose increase or dose reduction.
    4. No curve yet, but you said you were going to do one this weekend. Still on target to do that?
    Yes, we focus on the SS and the numbers we see to provide guidance on dosing. If you are only doing the pre-shot tests, it's impossible to see what is going on during the rest of the cycle.

    Other notes on the SS can also be helpful when we review them. Like foods fed at what times during the 12 hour cycle. Notes in the + hour format are more useful than saying 10 am, since we have no idea when 10 am is in relationship to the dose of insulin. Any notes on how your cat is feeling, acting, how the appetite is can also be useful. There is a Remarks column for that type of info on the SS.

    Prozinc drops the mid-cycle numbers before you will see a drop in the pre-shot numbers. Those pre-shots are the last of the BG levels to reduce to more normal numbers.

    See Ninja's SS, over in the Prozinc forum for an example. Dana switched her cat Ninja to Prozinc about 3 weeks ago. Just saw her first string of greens, at mid-cycle, yesterday. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...dlsAE1bUksOs2gSUF54XqNzVam5qFLwwL-t1w/pubhtml Dana and Ninja's thread is this one. Take a look.
    Switching to Prozinc. Wish us luck!
     
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  13. Juls and Billy

    Juls and Billy Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2019
    Agree with Deb. No one wants to give dosing advice that might do harm. Without any mid-cycle tests, there's no way to know how low the BGL is dropping between injections. No way to know if kitty is high, or having bounce. Dosing adjustments with ProZinc are normally based on the low mid-cycle readings, not the pre-injection readings.

    Say, for example, your mid-cycle low readings were consistently in the 200-300 range. Then an increase in dose might be needed. On the other hand, if mid-cycle tests were in the 60-100 range, a decrease in dose might be what's needed. No member here is going to want to make a decision on increasing or decreasing dose without that information. We could suggest an increase by accident when mid-cycle readings were too low, and that can lead to a dangerous hypo event-- and that put's your cat's life in danger.

    Yes, it can be hard to get readings. Yes, it can annoy your kitty. It's necessary. Get whatever mid-cycle readings you can. Do more on days off work. Set an alarm at night to get up, test, and go back to bed. It's hard, I know. I was exhausted the first couple weeks from getting night readings. It was totally worth it. It paid off big time. I know we were lucky because I work from home and could get whatever mid-cycle tests I needed. People who work still manage to do as best they can. Some do morning shot as early as possible so they can get a +2 before work. Some work close enough to home they can run home and test at lunch. Some do night tests and do more day tests on days off. It takes some getting used to, but it can totally be done.
     
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  14. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Do the best you can, as Juls said.
    We know that people work, have other work and life responsibilities, have do go grocery shopping or do laundry, go out for dinner with friends.

    Do the best you can. You are strong. Never forget that. Boston Strong upload_2020-2-16_12-42-23.png as they say where I live.

    Today, I was cat sitting for a diabetic cat, so was off the message board this morning. Doing that cat sitting for someone else again tonight and tomorrow morning. Again this coming weekend. Makes my life busy, but totally worth it, helping someone else with their diabetic cat.

    We help each other out, weather it's by replying to posts on the message board, giving you words of encouragement, telling you what else you can try with foods or testing. Finding someone else to help you if we don't know. It's all part of the community we have built here on the message board.

    I think the first 2 -3 weeks of learning how best to help your diabetic cat is the absolute most difficult time in your life. Stressful in the extreme. As difficult and stressful as dealing with a life threatening health issue for you or a family member. You wonder how you will cope.

    But you do, it becomes part of the new routine. Not always easy, but doable.

    "What ?!?! give my cat shots? Learn to home test? NO WAY. Get my cat to eat a different food? Impossible you may say." But you have done all that, all that and so much more and you should be proud of yourself for learning all that and helping your cat feel better.

    Now, it's time to try to get at least 1 more mid-cycle test. When you are home. When you can squeeze in a test here and there. Maybe that will only be a +10 or a +11 if you get home from work early enough. Maybe it will be a test here and there on the weekend.

    Find happiness wherever you are. Maybe here. upload_2020-2-16_12-44-15.jpeg

    I used to work 2 jobs, 6 days a week. 70-80 hour work weeks easy. 60-90 minute drives back and forth to work, each way. Add in the commute time and I'd be gone from home for 12-14 hours a day. I know how busy life can be. Let us know what works for you in your busy life and what doesn't. We'll brainstorm and come up with other ideas.
     
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  15. NicoleC46237

    NicoleC46237 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2020
    We're almost done with our first curve. It's going well. I wanted to wait until we were doing better with our testing before i stressed us both out doing them so often. Today was easy peasy - got them the first time almost every time. Now that i know better what to look for i will throw more mid-dosing tests in. I only feed him every 12 hours right now but i would like to add a mid-day small meal so he's not so hungry and his body isn't struggling so hard every 12 hours. I would do that at the +6 mark when he's at his nadir, right? Right now he is getting single ingredient treats (tuna, chicken or salmon) after each test and insulin and his meals only. He sometimes sneaks a bite or 2 of dry kibble if we don't catch him in time from his siblings but we even take that up 2 hours before insulin just in case. They eat American Journey.

    He goes back to the vet tomorrow for an insulin adjustment and bloodwork. I want to take the SS and my meter to show him what we are doing at home too. Hopefully he'll be pleased and work with the knowledge I'm getting from you all as well.
     
  16. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Cats can be sneaky, stealing food before you know it.

    American Journey dry. Nutritional Info Ingredients Deboned Turkey, Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal, Tapioca Starch, Dried Egg Product, Pea Protein, Peas, Deboned Chicken, Natural Flavor, Menhaden Fish Meal, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Flaxseed, Pea Fiber.

    No grains, but not low carb either. Highlighted those ingredients in red.

    We usually suggest increasing in 0.25U doses. Many vets increase in full 1 unit increments, and you may bypass the good dose by doing that.

    Keeping your vet involved is a very good idea. Don't lie to him/her. But push back if what he/she suggests makes you feel uncomfortable.

    Vet website (2018) AAHA Diabetes Management Guidelines for Dogs and Cats to share with your vet.
    We can point you to other resources also.
     
  17. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    American Journey dry cat food is around 34% carbs.
     
  18. NicoleC46237

    NicoleC46237 Member

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    Feb 7, 2020
    That is exactly what what i just said to my husband about what i was going to say to the vet lol. I'm concerned about small dosing with the U40 needles but i think i can do it ok. I might need to switch to the u100 - that's the best way to be accurate right? I saw there was a conversation chart somewhere in this site lol
     
  19. NicoleC46237

    NicoleC46237 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2020
    The long term plan is to switch them to a safer option but i wasn't trying to make huge changes all at one time. :)
     
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  20. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    You "eyeball" or make your best, most consistent measurement of those tinier doses with the U40 syringes. There are no syringes with 0.25u markings. They only come with 0.5U markings on the insulin barrel.

    Yes, you can use U100 insulin syringes with a U40 insulin. BUT NOT the other way around.
    So try to find U40 syringes with 1/2 unit markings at somewhere like ADW diabetes.
    Or find U100 syringes, 3/10 cc capacity (volume), half unit markings on the insulin barrel, needle length is your choice.

    You'll probably need a prescription from the vet for the syringes. Drug crisis.

    Food changes have been known to drop the BG levels 100 points or more. Caution and careful monitoring are highly recommended.
     
  21. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    There is a conversion chart to be used when dosing a U40 insulin with U100 syringes.
    You still enter the Prozinc dose amount on the SS.
    Not the amount you drew up in the U100 syringe.

    http://www.felinediabetes.com/insulin-conversions.htm

    Highly recommend you print off a hardcopy. Or 2, on real genuine paper.
     
  22. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Yup, slower changes can be good.
    Home testing before food change to a lower carb food is highly recommended.

    p.s. You've only been posting here for about 10 days. We'll give you a few more days (or weeks) to ask questions. ;);)
     
  23. NicoleC46237

    NicoleC46237 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2020
    I'm pretty steady so eyeballing sounds like a much easier plan. :)
     
  24. NicoleC46237

    NicoleC46237 Member

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    Feb 7, 2020
    I was a solid C student in school but once i started getting animals as an adult and researching how to best care for them i have turned into a fiend about learning. I can spit goat and chicken info at you for days and FD will be in there soon too. I just can't stop sucking in the info if there is any way to help me help them. I just can't thank you all so much! My husband keeps asking who this Deb is that I keep talking about LOL
     
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  25. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Tell him "Deb is someone on the FDMB message board that had a diabetic cat of her own."
    She is here because of that cat. Wink's picture is over there in my avatar, giving you his best "side eye" look.

    I'm here, "paying it forward", to the next group of people that need information about helping their diabetic cat.
    Sharing what I've has learned over the years.
    Still don't know everything. Never will. But help as much as I can.

    p.s. Want to know about those ducks. Haven't had ducks or raised chickens from eggs or young chicks since I was a child. Many eons ago, in a life far, far away. Had a goat when we were very young. Now, only 1 cat.

    Who wants me to go play with her, before sleep, beddy bye time.
     
  26. NicoleC46237

    NicoleC46237 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2020
    We're ordering the ducks at the end of the month - I'm still doing my research on them. We're getting runner ducks so I'm pretty excited. I have to say the goats make me giddy! I keep feeling like a little girl thinking "I HAVE GOATS!!" :D

    I just finished reading Wink's profile :) He's a lucky boy to have found you and you're lucky to have found him at the right time for you. ♡ I'm lucky to have found the both of you!!
     
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  27. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Nobody does "profiles" like that anymore. It's a simple Word type document. I created it over in my google account. Selected "Docs" and the blank doc template and then started typing away and inserting pictures. Updated it when I thought about it. Has more background information than the signature can ever hold.

    Then I did the publish to the web steps and linked it to my User ID signature. Just like you do when setting up a spreadsheet to keep track of the insulin doses, test times, etc.

    FDMB Spreadsheet Instructions
     

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