First shot this morning 2/4! Prozinc AMPS ~ 313

This is Sabian. She's 13 and just diagnosed with DM this week. Her only symptoms were weight loss and excessive drinking, so I took her in. All of her bloodwork came back good except the glucose (400 taken yesterday). The trigs and cholesterol were elevated but not by much and the vet said was a side effect of the diabetes. Kidney indicators (creatinine in blood and ketones in urine?) came back on the low side of normal, so he wasn't worried about kidney disease. He prescribed 6u of Prozinc twice a day and gave me a bag of Purina DM dry food since she's been free-feeding Science Diet dry food only for the past 10+ years, with the occasional 9-Lives wet on special days. BTW, there's been a LOT of special days lately. I asked about home testing and he said that it would just make it harder to live with the cat since she'd be getting poked all the time and would associate me with that possibly bad experience. I'm not buying into that actually, and will be grabbing a test kit today or tomorrow when the snow stops.

My question of "too much?" arises after reading some alarming responses to another recent post about someone prescribing even less and everyone saying that was way too much to start. Now I'm freaking out. The vet said that the 6u was a light dose of Prozinc and that hypo wasn't going to be an issue with such a low dose. I put a pic of the syringes I was given (U-40 29g) at the level where he prescribed. Her first shot was this morning at 0730 and she didn't even notice it because she was focused on eating the new food.

My other question involves the food/diet. After looking at the nutrition info spreadsheet for canned food and noticed the high protein, low carb-ness of the 9L fishy cans...Would those be any kind of replacement for the prescription food if the specs were about the same? It would definitely save on the costs which are already looking a bit steep.

Thanks in advance for any help or advice.

Here's some pics.

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

My first response was YIKES!!! Six units is a high starting dose.Most cats start on doses of one or two units. I would run out and get a glucose meter to moniter your cat's BG. At a high dose like that your cat does run the risk of going hypo. We had several cases in the past week and one of the cats died.

I don't have a lot of time since I am on my lunch hour, but I am sure another member will pick up where I leave of. Please do not give your cat another dose until you get more advice from other members. Read the post on hypos and home testing now.

I don't want to alarm you but I am sure others will tell you the same thing.If any human medical professional told a patient to give insulin injections without monitering BG, they would lose their license. Maybe the same should apply to vets!

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

I agree - YIKES!!! 6u is NOT a low dose at all! 1u is a low dose. The DM dry food is not absolutely horrible, but is higher in carbs than most of us like to use (14% carbs if I remember right). Here we usually like to feed 10% or less, with many opting for foods that are 5% or less carbs. I strongly urge you to get a human glucometer as soon as you can. If your kitty has no history of ketones yet, I suggest going down to 1u twice a day (the first little line on the syringe you pictured). When you can get out to get the glucose meter, also pick up a pack of ketostixs to test ketone levels in the urine. Many of us here use the Walmart Relion brand glucose meter since it is so cheap in the store.

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

the dry food is more than likely the only thing keeping your baby from hypo. get that meter. drop the dose down to 1u or more preferably 1/2 u and start on lo carb wet diet. you should see a dramatic drop on numbers with food change alone. you can even hold the insulin and try wet for a few days and test and see response.
as far as testing, we all test before evening shot and morning shot. then we do spot checks in between and always a before bed test.
look at it this way, if you or your human child were diabetic, would you shoot insulin blindly without knowing what your Blood sugar is??
stick around and read the stickies. lots of info and janet and binky's food chart for wet foods lo in carb content. 10% or less. a lot do less. http://binkyspage.tripod.com/canfood.html

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

Im wondering how many hours ago you gave the shot?
I dont have experience using Prozinc, so Im not sure when it typically peaks.
Six units is high, for a first shot on any insulin. Especially if you dont know what BG's were when you gave it.

Is there a chance you have a pharmacy very near by to go get yourself a meter, and try testing?
There is a link some folks post to help guide people learning to test. I will see if I can find it....or maybe someone else will stop by with it very soon.

Please review this information on hypo's (very low/dangerous blood sugar):
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=15887

I will be running out soon. Hopefully others will be around. Do not hesitate to post if you have any concerns, and/or call your vet.

Hopefully you will have a meter and able to test before your next shot time.

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

Pretty kitty. Please, try and get a meter today and if for some reason you cannot, please do not shoot more than 1 unit MAX for tonight. You can consider changing to all canned once you have a meter and are testing. As for your vet........The vet said that the 6u was a light dose of Prozinc and that hypo wasn't going to be an issue with such a low dose.....so dangerously wrong.
It is a very high dose, especially for a starting dose and hypo could be an issue with that dose. Majority of cats usually end up with less that 3 units b.i.d., even that is not a normal amount. Most take less than that.

As for kitty becoming harder to live with because of all the poking.......not going to happen. They get to the point where you can just to where they are sleeping, grab an ear, stick and walk away and they go right back to sleep.

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

agree with hope and my wheezer can be sleeping and I pick up the bottle of strips and shake it and say "time to test" and he comes up to the testing area and it is a done deal.
testing
the sweet spot. all along the outer edge of ear. I go no further than the fold. either ear and either outer part or inner part
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m267 ... etspot.jpg
great links and info. scroll down to videos to see how to hometest
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=287

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

Agree with everyone that 6 Units is not a low dose at all. Where did your vet get that number from? Back in 2005 when Tucker was prescribed Humulin they based his dose on weight, he weighed about 18 pounds and was to be given 4 or 5 units BID, can't remember right now. It's been a very long time since insulin was dosed by weight (I hope).

Please drop that dose down to 1 unit.

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

It is a high dose. Our vet started us on 4 units of PZI twice daily, and as soon as we started to test at home, we found it was too much insulin and rapidly reduced it].

I hope you will let us teach you how to hometest over the internet. We have taught lots of people. PZI generally reaches its lowest point in the cycle around 6 hours after the shot. It would be great if you could get a number then so you would know how low your cat is going. If you can't get a test in by then, at least monitor her behavior around then.

Here is a video: Video for hometesting

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

Indeed, 6u is a high dose. it is best to start low and work up to more insulin IF the cat needs it.

With that high a dose I'd get out in the snow and get that meter ASAP. High blood glucose is not healthy for long periods, but too much insulin can make BG go too low very quickly and that can kill in a very short time. Sorry, if that is scary, but it is the truth.

Keep posting today and someone will be here to help if Sabian starts to go too low. Read the sticky on hypos and know the symptoms to look for.How to treat Hypos

Have some higher carb food on hand or a drop of Karo syrup or honey, especially if you can't get the meter today. When in doubt feed the high carb food (HC). Karo should bring the BG up quickly, but it wears off quickly and numbers can drop again. Hc canned food takes a little longer to effect BG, but lasts longer. Dry food takes too long to get into the system to do much good here and a very long time to clear as well. Fancy Feast flovors "Gravey Lovers" or the grilled w/ gravy flavors are HC. BTW look at the "old list " for foods too, many things on there like Fancy Feast are not repeated on the new list.

Most of our cats come for testing and actually purr through it because they know they will get a treat afterwards, bribery works wonders. :lol: For low carb treats most of us use freeze dried chicken treats, often sold as dog treats.

You've gotten a lot more posts since I started this. One last thing, where are you? There may be a member nearby who can help you to learn test.

Canned food is definitely better even Friskier or Nine Live is better than the best dry food. Try to find ones that are grain free, by products aren't great but "meal" is worse. We limit the fish flavors to about once a week, 2 reasons, 1) heavy metals 2) cats can get addicted and refuse to eat anything else. Look for foods in the 3% to 6% range, tht is close to what their natural prey has.

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

Thanks for the responses. I gave the first shot today at 07:30, and posted that at 12:08, so about 4.5 hours between. It's now 14:23 and she's been her normal-self all day. I just got back in from the trek to Walmart, my least favorite place in the world, and picked up a Reli-On BG meter, strips and lancets. I took it on myself and got a 102. I've tried like 6 or 7 times now to get a sample from her ear (using the lancet pen), and I can't seem to hit it right or something. A few of the times it didn't even bring blood even though I felt the punch hit her skin, and the couple of times it did, I couldn't get enough for a reading (E-7).

She didn't seem to really feel it much, but the click bugged her. She got sick of me fiddling with her ears so I let her go play for a bit. I'm keeping a close eye on her, and will try to get a reading again without using the pen in a few hours.

Right now, coffee-time for me.

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

Good for you! We all have tips that helped us get blood the first time. We use a rice sack to warm the ear- a thinnish sock, knotted, filled with raw rice and heated in the microwave until very warm but not hot. Hold it up next to her ear for 3-45 seconds to warm it up. You can leave it on the back of her ear to have something to poke against. What gauge are your lancets? If they are 30-31, they may be too skinny to make a good hole at first. To use them now (get 25-26 gauge later) double poke - just poke again quickly in the same place.

You can also milk the ear - pushing lightly from the bottom of the ear up to the place you poked.

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

A few helpful hints we've learned to get blood for the test:

- Try heating the ear with a warm cloth before testing. I use a sock filled with rice, which I put in the microwave for about 45 seconds. (TEST IT on yourself to be sure it's not too hot; don't want to burn kitty's delicate ear.) Hold that warm object around the ear, and massage the ear to promote blood flow.

- You can also try gently compressing the spot you intend to test with your thumb and forefinger, or with the lancet pen if you use one. When the pressure is released, the blood flows in, making it easier to get that little bit of blood you need for your test.

- Be prepared with a folded over piece of napkin. After the test, compress the place you tested, top and bottom, with the clean cloth on the puncture. apply gentle pressure for up to 30 seconds. This helps stop bleeding.

- Many of us use neosporin pain relief, just a dab on the tested spot. Especially at first, it keeps the ear from getting sore. (Some people prefer a completely natural salve; Halo makes one.)

Ears "learn" to bleed. The testing gets easier after the first couple of weeks.

Good luck!

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

Get her to eat and test again in at least 2 hours. When too much insulin is given, they can keep dropping well after 12 hours from the shot, even on prozinc. Also, be prepared to see all high numbers tomorrow potentially - she has probably dropped about 300-400 points today, which is quite a drop, and will usually trigger the liver to send out protective glucose stores.

As far as the actual pokies - I have never had good luck with the lancet device. I use the pokey thing free hand because I can control the poke spot better and Oscar doesn't hear that click right before the poke!

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

:thumbup on getting the meter. We all have different preferences and techniques for testing, you have to find what works for you. I freehand (no pen), it is easier to aim between the vein and the edge of the ear.

Be sure the ear is warm and have a pad and/or the rice sock behind the ear for support, hold the lancet at a 45º angle and poke lightly and twist slightly as you remove it, double poking is good too. Sometimes when blood doesn't bead up a second light poke makes it form right away. I like the finer lancets, 30 or 33 gauge but I use the BD brand. I think they are sharper (I don't have to push as hard and they seem to hurt less.) Put pressure on the spot for 15 to 20 seconds to stop the bleeding w/ some tissue.

Good luck!

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

Using the lancet freehand is definitely an option, since the click bothers your kitty. You can also take the top off the device, put a lancet in, and use the device simply as a handle. I did that for a while, since holding the lancet all by itself was hard for me. In the end, I decided to use the device with cap and click and everything, and Megan has no problem with it now. (At first she did jump when she heard the click.)

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

I just got her to eat a bit of the DM dry food and I'll try again in a bit. I'm going to try the pen without clicking and freehand the poke next. I realized after the pic that Dian posted that I was shooting the spot on the other side of the vein while actually aiming for the vein (never hit it). Is it bad form to use your own finger as a backing for the stick?

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

If, you do use your finger, you run the risk of getting poked and mixing the blood with hers. Some people use a folded up kleenix behind the ear.

Here's a picture of where to poke: Where to poke You are aiming for the little capillaries that run off the vein. If you hit the vein, it won't hurt anything but you aren't aiming for it.

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

You can use your own finger but you will probably at least in the beginning get your own finger as well. So if you don't mind bleeding as well. =)

Another tip that I found helpful when I first started testing my Max, as he wasn't much for being held still. Was to aim low on the ear just right above that little triangle flap at the base of the ear. That way I got a better grip on his ear and he seemed to bleed better there in the beginning. You may also find one ear bleeds easier than the other, don't be afraid to try different spots or different ears.

Also since he is long haired I use a little bit of neosporin with pain relief on his ear to help the blood bead up and not disappear into his fur. I got lucky and my guy went into remission fairly quickly but he now bugs me for a test every so often because in the beginning he got yummy chicken treats when being tested. Now he asks to be tested just for the treats. If you reward your kitty every time you test with a low carb treat, they catch on pretty fast that in exchange for a small poke of the ear they get food. Remember to give the treat regardless of if you get blood or not and soon you may have a kitty asking for his test too.

Mel, Max & The Fur Gang.

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

I actually poke the other edge of the ear ie the thicker edge, about 2/3 of the way down the ear.

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

Okay, paranoid me just took 2 readings a few minutes apart - an 83 and a 72. Help?

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

how many hours after shot time???? fyi those are basically the same number, as meter readings have an allowable +/- 20% variation

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

Eight hours. She ate a bit of food 10 minutes ago and now is just relaxing beside me purring on the desk. I'm however, not relaxed.

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

So far you aren't dipping to low but I would continue to test every couple of hours until you see him start to rise again. You aren't running the risk of hypo unless you start seeing low 50s or 40s. Non-diabetic numbers for a cat are between 40-120. Max who is diet controlled normally runs in the mid 60s.

I'm not familiar enough with the insulin you are using to know where your nadir (lowest point) is expected to be, I know on Lantus it is usually +6-+7 ( 6-7 hours after the shot), but not sure where it is with Prozinc. Others can probably tell you more.

If you haven't already read over the signs of hypo and how to treat should you see any of the signs.

Mel, Max & The Fur Gang

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

Well...the good news is that in the AVERAGE cat, prozinc peaks somewhere around 6 hours post shot. So if your cat is having an average reaction, she will have peaked already and may be on her way up and past danger.

All you can do at this point is get some tests in and see how things go. And seriously think about what you want to do about dosing, whether you want to talk more with your vet, etc. 6 units is a terribly dangerous dose to give a cat just diagnosed and your vet needs to give his/her head a shake

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

That is not a terrifying number. When they are in the 40s and below, they are at risk of hypo. BUT, with PZI, the lowest point in the cycle was probably about 2 hours ago. So she may have been down pretty low at nadir (lowest point in the cycle) Today, dry food was your friend. It probably kept her bg levels from going dangerously low. (Like a human diabetic getting too much insulin and then eating donuts to bring it back up - not a good plan)

If I were you, I would give her one unit twice daily and change over to wet food. Get a reading before each shot and at nadir as often as you can. We have a PZI forum with people who use PZI. There is also a great document on the page (first sticky below the grey line) with lots of info: viewforum.php?f=24

We also have a great tool - a color coded spreadsheet. It is a wonderful way to keep track of her readings and share them with your vet. Setting up a spreadsheet It also helps us if you come on and want help.

You are on your way! You can keep track of how the insulin is working now and help her into low, safe numbers. Congrats! Good work today.

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

I agree with the +6 peak BUT that was a rather large dose of insulin so I personally would test every half hour til I saw the numbers start to go up. that way you can catch a lower number quicker.
I for one am SO VERY GLAD YOU WENT OUT AND GOT A METER.
now ya see what we are all talkin about. JWD (job well done)

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

I'm pretty certain I'm going to lower the dose for tonight's shot to 1. I'm too stressed about this right now to worry about her going hypo in the night while I'm asleep. Right now, I think she likes the attention, as if she doesn't get enough already.

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

Glad to see you're getting good input from others familiar with dosing. Just one more word about testing:

Many of us use a bit of vaseline (as opposed to the neosporin) on the ear BEFORE the test. I prefer it to the neosporin for providing a surface that lets the blood pool, rather than dissipating into the fur. Then I dab neosporin pain relief after.

No-carb treats like freeze-dried chicken work great as a reward.

Lowering the dose is an excellent move.

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

Be sure to get a test an hour before the shot and then again shortly before shooting (the preshot test) that will let us know if she is surfing, dropping or going up. If her numbers are still low and she is dropping or surfing post before shooting to get advice. You may need to stall, shoot even less or totally skip the shot.

If you go to your first post, click edit and change the subject line to show those numbers it will get faster attention. Replace the "Prozinc........" with "+11~ test number" then add in the PMPS (evening preshot number) after that test. Editing the subject of the first post changes how it appears in the forum list. Also, to move your thread up the list you need to post a new reply.

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

Patrick,

I would suggest getting a number before your shot today, starting a new thread as this one is getting long and ask for PZI advice. We do suggest that newbies do not shoot any insulin under 200. If she is near 200 at shot time, she has gotten a long "surf" from this shot and we would want to be careful with the next dose. If she is high (300-400) we want to take into consideration that she may have gone pretty low today and it may be a bounce back up, not a "usual" number. In general, one unit should be fine, but not if she is under 200.

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

If there was no misunderstanding and your vet really said that 6units was a light dose and therefore posed no risk of hypo, then I would seriously consider going to another vet. There is room for disagreement in treating diabetes, but that is just wrong information.

It's great that you are home testing and were able to do it so quickly! If you give treats every time you test your cat will probably enjoy it. I had a cat who was just HORRIBLE to test in the beginning, and after months of it (and restraining her burrito style in a blanket) she would come over to me when she saw me get out the testing supplies.

You have come to the right place. There are tons of people here who have years of experience and are eager to help. If you want to be in touch with people with ProZinc experience, you can also post on the PZI insulin support group (link to be found on the home page).

Welcome! your cat is very lucky to have you. Lots of people would just follow their vet's advice without question. Good luck! Keep posting and asking questions.

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

Im really glad you were able to get a meter and successfully test! Great Job!

Are there any prozinc users out there who can explain whether or not too much insulin can prolong low numbers, or does it come/go out of the system?

At some point you will possibly see some VERY high numbers. I think, after glancing through the feedback you received, someone mentioned the liver dumping glucose when the BG's go lower than its used to. Please, if you see super high numbers tonight, dont let that sway you to give another 6u. I think your plan of possibly giving 1u is a good one. You can methodically move up from there, as you now know how to home test and can keep track of how she is doing on each dose.

The kibble you fed may also contribute to some higher numbers later tonight. Typically you want to feed wet food (a spoonful or two at a time/between tests) with higher carbs, or a few drops of karo mixed into wet food. If Im understanding correctly, you have plans to switch to wet in the near future. Until then, having a few cans on hand would be a good idea for times like these.

Hope Im not repeating too much of what others have said. Im guilty of just skimming the recent responses.

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

I figure she's gone this long with high numbers, a few hours with them while being treated isn't going to hurt as much as really low numbers. I'm more concerned with how my vet will handle me basically self-adjusting the dosage, but I'm more concerned with the health of my cat than anybody's feelings.

I have 9-Lives canned food that I've been feeding her over the past month (futilely trying to counter the slow weight-loss), but as I said before, she's been free-feeding for most of her life and that transition between a regular feeding schedule and the 24x7 all-you-can-eat buffet is going to take some time getting used to - more for the other 4 cats than her, I think. I still have yet to mentally tackle the diet thing though, since I've been obsessing about her BG levels.

It's turned into a pretty long thread, which I'm eternally grateful for.

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

I have 11 cats only one of which is a diabetic. Everyone here eats what the diabetic does and that is just plain Friskies Pate flavors. We do basically free feed the canned food since 3 of my non-diabetics are siamese mixes with all the vocal talents of which the siamese breed is known for. So to preserve my own sanity I put out fresh canned food for everyone about 4-5 times a day. All 11 are grazers in that they will eat a little, wander off, come back eat a little more etc.

To keep the canned food moist all day I just add a little water to it to make it about the same consistancy as applesauce. This helps them get more water, makes my gravy lovers happy, and keeps the food from drying out until they have finished it.

Personally I'm with you as far as your vet goes. There are other vets out there, but your baby girl is your one and only. She is far more important that hurting a vet's feelings. If he is willing to work with you great, if not, time to shop for a new vet.

Mel, Max & The Fur Gang

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

it would be in the best interest of all your cats to place on a wet diet. if money is a problem, there are cheaper foods. special kitty, friskies,9 lives come to mind. get all the low carb type. you can freeze little ice cube trays of this and put out to free feed or get a timed feeder to open at specific times.
just some thoughts

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

Well, I am not one to take it as a given that most cats will be past their peak at +6 on Prozinc and though I have never used that PZI I have used another PZI and still do on Mishka. I would keep testing and that dry food snack may have brought her up some but........doesn't mean she won't go down again. Mishka has been known to run a long duration way past the +12 mark so as someone else posted, when it comes time tonight for her second shot test her an hour before the normal test time. That will clue you in as to whether she is through with the a.m. and going up or if she is going down some more.

Fantastic that you got right on it and got that meter.

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

Ohhhhh, love the avatar! Gray and white kitties rule! :lol:

At this point you can feed her as much as she wants. Many people leave wet food out, even Tess has been known to go back to a bowl that has been sitting since breakfast. Another alternative is to freeze "pucks" of wet food to slowly thaw. They remain fresher throughout the day.

There are a number of 9-lives foods that are 2% to 6% carbs. Wallmart has Special Kitty and Petsmart has Sophisticat house brands, low cost and several low carb flavors. Friskies has a "Special Diet" line, most of which are low carb (avoid the Sliced Chicken in Gravy, 14% carbs). If the name has gravy in it it is probably high carb. You just have to start reading the labels and look for as much protein as possible in the first ingredients and no grains if possible. At the very least grains should be well down the list

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

Was your vet seeing signs of ketones? that would explain the high dose, maybe. I agree, your vet is
doing you a disservice and I would not trust what he says . My Payne uses ProZinc and she was on 5u b.i.d.
when she was having ketone problems going into DKA and that is a lot! What if you had given her 6u tonight
and 6u tomorrow morning? We just had a cat die from hypo, it is something you don't really want to deal with.
Pzi is a gentle insulin but too much and you are in big trouble. I see where you were cross posted in
the pzi forum, you will get great advice there! you probably saved your cats life by testing and
catching the big dip, you did real good!!

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

Hi and welcome!! I can heartily agree with the previous posters that 6u is a VERY HIGH starting dose. My kitty recently switched from prozinc insulin because he was getting such a high dose (we were considered high-dosers because we got up to almost 8u twice a day). I switched mostly to save money (I thought prozinc was an excellent insulin, but levemir was cheaper at that high of a dose). Many, many cats are regulated at under 2u twice a day. Look at KristenP&Sam for one. I think that Sam is getting under 1u. Allie is also a prozinc newbie who is doing amazingly well right around 2u. So, unfortunately, I have to disagree with your vet. If Kristen were to dose her kitty with 6u, he would likey die from a hypo. Vets have very general knowledge about diabetes. My original vet told me that hometesting is pointless and that if I wanted to do it, I should only do it once or twice a week. Well, I test before every shot and try to get as many mid-cycle tests as I can. Knowledge is power. My new vet insists that all his clients with a diabetic pet learn how to hometest. I'm much happier with this vet. Through hometesting I was able to figure out that the low point in the Charlie's cycle (nadir) was very variable on prozinc. It ranged between 4.5 hours after a shot to 8 hours after a shot. I hope we're not overwhelming you!! You can feel free to post in the PZI insulin support group to get more input from prozinc users.

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

I agree with this. Oscar has had instances on Prozinc where it lasted 20 hours before he started to go up (and, no, he does not do everything by the book, so not every cat will react this way sometimes. My boy is definitely an odd one sometimes.). So.... it is possible to have prozinc nadir a lot later than you think it should. Also as a general trend, too high of a dose on prozinc will give you a late nadir ( 8-12 hours after the shot). Even if that nadir is a pretty number, many will drop the dose back to get a nice nadir around 5-7 hours after the shot. The low point does move around according to how much insulin is given vs. how much was needed.

If possible, at this point test every hour until you see that number going up. Keep the food available, but don't over feed because if that number gets in the 50 or below range, you want her hungry enough to eat when it is really gonna count too.

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

How are her numbers? I'll try to keep checking back until we see the numbers rising for you!

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

Having the darndest time getting a poke. Now she's angry.

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

are you warming the ear. if not, you can just milk it to warm it up also. two quick jabs and a milk should bring up some blood. sometimes I let them shake head and that gets the blood out

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

It can be really hard to get blood at first. Eventually the ears 'warm' up to the idea and have no problems.
If she is angry, give her a treat and take a bit of a break.

Warming the ears - rubbing, putting a bit of rice in a sock or piece of cloth/nuke a few seconds and hold to ear (make sure its not too hot).

A little neosporin (not cream) or vaseline can help.

Kisses, treats, and just plain ol trying to explain what is going on can also go a long way! :mrgreen:

Glad to see a few pzi folks chime in about how long you *could* see lower numbers with a higher dose.

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

YES!!! treats whether you get blood or not. kitty will come to associate ear pricks with treats and will happily come to you (eventually) lol

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

One other thing depending on which Relion meter you got you may not realize how very little blood some of them need. I use the Relion Micro for Max, in the beginning I was trying to get a fairly good size drop of blood. If you have the Mirco like I do, it only takes a bead of blood about the size of the head of a sewing pin, or about the size of a sharpened pencil. Once I realized I was trying for too much blood testing became a whole lot easier. Just a thought.

Mel, Max & The Fur Gang

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

The Micro is the one I have and I've been having trouble even drawing blood, so it's a stick technique instead of a meter problem. I'm going to try the manual poke and warm the ear method, but she's a bit twitchy with me around her ears right now, and she's never let me really hold her paws so a pad-stick is pretty much already out of the equation.

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

One thing that helped us at first was to wrap Oliver up in a towel with only his head showing. I put him on the couch next to the arm so I could gently push him into the arm if he tried to move. Others put their kitties between their legs while sitting on the floor, with the towel.

And yes, definitely, treats every time, blood or not.

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

Got a reading! 121! I think I'm holding off on the shot tonight.

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

Absolutely! No Insulin. When you talk to your vet, you need to take your numbers in for today and let him see what a catastrophe this could have been. Imagine if you just gave 6 units again tonight.

It is fantastic that you got the meter and got the testing done. You have literally saved your kitty's life today. You both have earned some treats tonight.

So tomorrow, the insulin "should" have worn off. And she may have a fairly high number. If she does, I would still just give the one unit and plan to test. If she is lower than 200 or near it, be sure to come back on and ask for advice.

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

HiPatrick! (goodness, my first post I called you dan...sorry...edited now! :mrgreen: )
I think that is a great idea. I dont even want to imagine what would have happened if you were not testing and gave another 6u tonight. I dont think you need to be scared of what your vet is going to say about changing the dose. I think your vet should be scared of what YOU are going to say! ;-) NICE JOB today. So glad you found the group.

If Sabian will allow you to practice a few more pokes tonight, that might be good to see what her numbers are doing and how long the insulin is lasting for her at that whoppin' 6u. Im curious how much of the 121 is related to the kibble, and if it might drop her a bit later on.

So, you are thinking 1u tomorrow a.m?
It would be great if you could get a test 1hr before shooting insulin tomorrow a.m. and posting it. That will give you a good hour to get some help if you need it before shooting again.

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

Yay she is on the way up again...although she may drop again once the kibble starts to wear off. I think with-holding her shot tonight might be wise. But tomorrow I would only give 1u if she is over 200 at your preshot test. It is much easier to raise a dose if it isn't working than to get insulin out of her if it is too much. You may see a fairly high number in the morning, but try not to react to that, she may have gone really low and be bouncing a bit in the morning.

Our rice sock is our best friend in this colder weather. And thinnish sock filled with about 2/3 full of plain white rice and knotted works great. Baby socks are fantasic for making one, and usually pretty cheap, especially if you check for them in places like Goodwill. I usually stick ours in the microwave for about 20 seconds while I get all my testing supplies together.

As far as lancets goes, I kind of half and half it. I use the pen as a handle but I take the cap off. I dial it back to the first depth setting, I free hand it to aim and then use the spring action to make the poke quick. But I did have to get Max use to the sound of it clicking, to do that I would cuddle with him and just click it near his ears without a lancet in it. Now he knows that when he hears it click there is treat right behind it.

It does get easier once you find your groove. Now it takes me longer to get the strip in the meter than to get the blood from his ear.

Mel, Max & The Fur Gang

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc 6u 2x a day. Too much

I've been called worse.

I'm going to test her and wonder what it should be in order to give her 1u - 200? 250? I'm still planning on giving the vet a call mid-morning and having a polite chat. I'm probably not going to be up an hour before the shot test (does 6:30am exist?) but I'll test before I give her one, that's for certain. I hope I'm not as stressed and freaked tomorrow as I was today, my own blood pressure can't take this often.

I just fed some 9-Lives Chicken & Tuna canned to them all too.

And Sue, my treat is being uncorked directly.

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc +12~121 PMPS

Usually with newbies we say no shoot if you are under 200, anything over that give 1u. Once you get more comfortable with testing and have gathered some additional data through testing at different times during the day, you will feel more comfortable shooting lower numbers.

And if in doubt, test come on here and post her number and need dose advice and someone will jump in to help. Nice thing about here is we never close, no holidays or office hours, since we have members literally all over the world there is always some one around to lend a hand.

Mel, Max & The Fur Gang

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc +12~121 PMPS

Good for you - liquid treats are always special. :mrgreen:

Just some general guidelines. We try to give dosing advice as it comes, because every cat is different and your kitty reacts to insulin differently than mine did. If she is really around 200 in the morning, we are looking at a different scenerio. She will have been 24 hours without insulin and be in pretty low numbers. We would probably be very cautious with the dose. You should come on with your number and wait for advice. Waiting till you get some opinions wouldn't hurt anything if she is still in that range; it would be the wisest way to go. Cats react to a hypo (I are assuming she could have gone down into a pretty low range before you got a number) in different ways - bouncing high, staying low. No way to know till tomorrow morning. We call this the sugar dance - and she is leading.......

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc +12~121 PMPS

Good job testing! If you continue to have trouble, you might try the clothespin trick. Here is the link: http://www.felinecrf.org/giving_sub-qs_ ... _peg_trick. It seeems ridiculous, but it is rather like a mother cat holding a kitten by the scruff, and many cats really relax (I found it an invaluable tool with my cat).
I think skipping the shot if her BG is not above 200 is a good idea. We usually recommend 200 as the "no-shoot" cutoff for newbies. My cat was on ProZinc and sometimes had very late nadirs (lowest BG point in cycle) as late as +10 or +12 (10 or 12 hours after insulin shot).

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc +12~121 PMPS

Other testing suggestions---I found the rice sock unwieldy. I used a small medicine vial which I filled with very hot water. It fit the curve of her ear, warmed it, and gave me a firm surface to poke against. A bit of vaseline helps the blood bead up so you can see it. Putting a flashlight behind the ear sometimes helps you see the vein. My cat never liked any of the treats, so I fed her whatever her favorite food was just after testing.

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc +12~121 PMPS

hi there and welcome. i've only been able to catch a glimpse of this thread here and there today as i'm a bit under the weather but did want to throw out there that if i'm thinking straight (fever's broke at this time. LOL!) there's another member there in Tulsa who knows a whole lot about diabetes, etc....when it comes to cats. her name is Dale and if you find you need a vet recommendation or something, I'm sure she can help you with that. for that matter, she might even help you with testing if need be. i'll send her a message and point her here for you

 

Re: First shot this morning! Prozinc +12~121 PMPS

Just took the reading again at 22:20 and it's a 280, 15 hours after the shot this morning. No shot this evening, and I'm going to hold her food for the night.

 

Re: First shot this morning 2/4! Prozinc +15~280

Cindy, Dale has been snowed in, not even at work this past week, and she normally isn't on her computer at home. I will call her and let her know about Patrick.

 

Re: First shot this morning 2/4! Prozinc +15~280

I know the feeling. Fortunately (or not), I work from home.

 

Re: First shot this morning 2/4! Prozinc +15~280

Actually we like you to free feed the wet food. You can freeze it and leave it out to thaw. Food helps support the pancreas so small frequent meals are good.

It looks like you will have a high enough number to shoot in the morning. If you do, I would still be conservative with the dose and do the one unit.

 

Re: First shot this morning 2/4! Prozinc +15~280

Patrick, I am sending you a PM with Dale Ann's home #, her work #, and her email.

 

Re: First shot this morning 2/4! Prozinc +15~280

Thanks. I plan on just the 1 unit in the morning if it's high, but I'll post here first.

 

Re: First shot this morning 2/4! Prozinc +15~280

It looks like you have come a long ways since my YIKES response when I was the first one who responded to your post. You got probably more responses in a short amount of time that anyone I have seen recently. There must be a Guardian angel looking over you and your kitty. Maybe it's the 777 in your user name! I am REALLY GLAD you are testing now and didn't give your cat six more units of insulin today.

I normally wouldn''t say this but it has been a long day.... Is your vet nuts to prescribe a dose of insulin that high? Maybe that vet needs a good injection of Haldol I.M. LOL

 

Re: First shot this morning 2/4! Prozinc +15~280

I'd like to thank each of you for helping me through this stressful day. I'm grateful and very relieved that I was able to find such a helpful and considerate group. Sabian has been with me through a lot of really bad times, and I've always considered her one of my favorite "people" in my life. It chokes me up to think what might have happened if I had blindly done what I was told and not researched, joined the board and asked the questions. I usually just wallflower on forums for a while, but today, something told me to go ahead and post. You helped save her life today, and you saved me from a heart-wrenchingly catastrophic experience.

Thank you all. I just hope I can help someone here in the future the way I was helped today. If any of you ever need anything, let me know. I am in your debt.

 

Re: First shot this morning 2/4! Prozinc +15~280

Awww shucks that is just what we do here.

It won't be long and you will be right up there with the rest of us, coming on to hold the hands and paws of the newbies, telling them how upset and scared you were when you first got here, and guiding them as you were guided yesterday. That is just the way this family of cat lovers works.

You may even find yourself among those of us that get crazy enough to adopt other sugarcats. That's what happened to me. I found these great folks when my first girl Muse was dxed thus my board name. However, Muse was just too ill to pull through, so when my current diabetic boy Max came up for adoption here on the board I jumped at the chance to adopt him. It wasn't more than a couple of weeks after I adopted him that he was going into remission, home testing literally saved his life as well, because he and I didn't know each other well enough at that time for me to know what was normal behavior for him, I could have very easily missed signs of hypo in him.

I know at times it can be hard to buck the Vet's advice afterall they are the professionals but here we eat, drink, breathe and live feline diabetes 24/7. And actually everything feline, so there is always a good chance we have someone around that can offer advice on anything that comes up.

You and Sabian are going to do just great! Your off to a fantastic start.

Mel, Max & The Fur Gang

 

Re: First shot this morning 2/4! Prozinc +15~280

Thanks, Mel.

I just took her level this morning and it came up 313. Looks like a 1u shot is in order for her.

 

Yep that is a nice safe number to give insulin on...try to get a +3 and a +6 on her as well just to do a couple of spot checks to see how she reacts to the lower dose. But I'm guessing she will do great. I am so thankful you found the group as quickly as you did, and got that meter...Sabian has a great kitty-dad looking after her, she is one lucky girl.

Mel, Max & The Fur Gang

 

Good Morning, Patrick. One unit sounds great. Any tests you can get in will be great, but especially around 5-6 hours after this am shot.

Did you get a chance to read the info on PZI?

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=32799

 

I think I've read everything there is to read about this stuff over the past few days.

Just gave 1u (that barely looked like anything in the syringe) at 8:15 with an AMPS of 313 while she was eating some 9L Ocean Whitefish.

 

Years ago I pulled up 1 unit of water in a U-100 syringe and squirted it on the counter. Just a tiny drop of water but that was all Baby needed, 1 unit. Some cats need only 1/2 unit. Always go by the meter reading and never think that "it doesn't look like much"...potent stuff. I have also seen people come on here with a hypo on their cat that has been diabetic for several years. Reason for the hypo.....they had a well regulated cat, figured they knew what the number would probably be, and didn't take the time to test before shooting. Always, always test before shooting insulin.....Mishka has been on it now for close to 7 1/2 years and I never have given a shot without getting a test in first.

 

actually Patrick. it is you we/I must thank. first for finding this board and then actually listening to what we all said and act upon it. YOU saved her life. cause we could have talked and talked and talked and unless you put your faith in us and acted on our suggestions, the outcome could have been very dire.
thank you for putting your trust in a bunch of internet animal lovers

 

Good Morning Patrick and Sabian!
What a GREAT # she gave you for your first *real* shot! :mrgreen:
I am so impressed to see you have a ss set up so quickly! Great Job Patrick. I was going to ask you to work on that this weekend, but see you are way ahead of the game. :thumbup

One suggestion for today (aside from what others suggested regarding tests):
Could you start a new thread? Title it: 2/5 Sabian (new PZI) AMPS-313. In your first post of the thread put a link to THIS thread. Youre seem pretty computer savvy...but just in case.. ;-) http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopi ... 28&t=35957 (just copy and paste). We can work off the new post today, with easy reference to yesterday.

I agree with Dian, YOU are really the one to thank. YOU did the work and trusted us to help. We could not have helped you, without your cooperation. :smile:

My Latte's problems started when I gave a medication my vet highly recommended. I didnt do any research on it because I figured my vet knew best. It ended up putting her in acute renal failure and lived the remainder of her life with permanent renal damage. I was fortunate to find a group (not this one) who insisted she *could* survive and live many more happy years, if I did Xyz. The vet just said pts, there was no hope. I listened to the group and She lived another 3.5yrs. Our vet got an additional education on the importance of not giving up and keeping more up to date on their profession. I certainly hope your vet will learn something from this experience, after you present the facts of what happened. If there is no learning to be had, than I hope you will be able to find a new vet...one who will work WITH you and Sabian. One who will be on the team.

Look forward to seeing numbers the rest of the day. Hope Sabian is feeling well, and you are a little more relaxed.

 

also...in a new post, as the day goes on you can add numbers to your main subject line. Go to the first post and edit the subject line.

2/5 Sabian (new pzi) AMPS-313, +3-244
(as an example)

 

I am computer savvy, thanks. Should I start a new thread in this forum or somewhere else?

 

Entirely up to you, Patrick. You can get dosing advice here; just make sure people know you are using PZI as it works differently than the other two most often used insulins, Lantus and Levemir. This forum is also best for general health advice. And any time you have an emergency, it is best to post here as you will get more people responding.

We do have a PZI forum that is for PZI users. It is not as busy as this one, but someone is always on in the am and pm. It is a small, friendly forum and you can see how others are working with PZI and what kinds of doses they are using. viewforum.php?f=24

 

I'd like to keep it here. Some boards have differing rules about which forum to put which types of posts. I run a couple of motorcycle msg boards and we're pretty strict about some things like that.

Thanks!

 

We're not picky. :mrgreen: I post both on Health and in PZI. It's all one big FDMB family.