Food intolerance

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (The Main Forum)' started by Sean & Rufus, Jan 10, 2018.

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  1. Sean & Rufus

    Sean & Rufus Well-Known Member

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    Hi all-

    New here. Posted long intro in other forum. Cat has food intolerance and used to eat RC selective (rabbit), but now eats Fancy Feast because it's low carb and really he wont eat the RC right now because of being picky and nauseaous.

    So, I'm pretty sure the Fancy Feast is causing pancreatis which is why we cant get him regulated but also is causing him to be very selective. I need to get him back on a rabbit protein, but am worried because they are higher carb, but at this point his numbers are high so whats the difference.

    Do you think it's better to give low carb food, which I'm sure he an intolerance to, or selective food that is too high in carbs, but could possibly help with the pancreatitis?

    Thanks for any thoughts on the matter!
     
  2. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Yes, low carb canned food is best. However, there are many members with kitties that have a variety of needs (meds, special diet, etc.) related to other health issues that have to be accommodated. In those cases, insulin has to be dosed around the other needs.
     
  3. Sean & Rufus

    Sean & Rufus Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. That is what I was thinking now. He has zero carb limited ingredient dry food, but can't really eat it yet. It's all a catch 22 with this. Jjust got to get him to eat consistently, and on his own and I think the dry food will be a great thing!
     
  4. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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  5. Sean & Rufus

    Sean & Rufus Well-Known Member

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    He's on pepcid 5mg a day. If I miss a day, it takes days to get back to "normal". Yes, he had a blood test for the pancreatitis. Can't remember the name off hand, but it was positive. He hasn't had an ultrasound.
     
  6. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes - especially when dealing with issues like pancreatitis and IBD - the 'right food' is the one the kitty can actually eat reliably and comfortably.

    As you say above, it can be a real catch-22. :(


    Mogs
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  7. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Spec fPL gives a numerical result indicative of level of inflammation. (Needs to be sent out to external lab for processing.)

    SNAP fPL gives a yes/no result for pancreatic abnormality. (Usually done in house by general practice vets offering the test.)


    Mogs
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  8. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I read your intro post and see three areas of concern:
    1. food (or other) allergies that need attention - food, meds, etc.
    2. possible/probable ongoing pancreatitis - treatment of symptoms is the usual approach
    3. several insulin dose changes in a very short time and in large whole unit increments.
    Numbers 1 and 2 are tricky to treat. You can post about these specifically on this forum. Number 3 is something we can address with you now. You'll get the best Lantus dosing advice over on that forum. There are many experienced members there who can help. They likely have experience with the other health issues too.
     
  9. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Here's a very helpful document from IDEXX labs with all the recommended treatments for kitties with pancreatitis:

    IDEXX Feline Pancreatitis Guidelines

    Ondansetron and Cerenia can help much more with nausea issues than Pepcid AC.


    Mogs
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  10. Sean & Rufus

    Sean & Rufus Well-Known Member

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    My biggest concern is we keep upping the dose, but the numbers stay relatively the same. Not saying I have the answer, or don't trust the vet, but just seems odd to me that he is off the pred, eats minimal carbs, and we keep upping the dose and no changes in numbers. I was really thinking and hoping that stress from the vet was elevating the numbers. We did do a fructosamen test and it came back "poor" though, so not sure it is stress elevating his numbers.
     
  11. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    How long has he been off the steroids?
     
  12. Sean & Rufus

    Sean & Rufus Well-Known Member

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    Thanks critter mom. We've tried the cerenia shot and the pills and they don't seem to do anything. I'll ask the vet about Ondansetron.
     
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  13. Sean & Rufus

    Sean & Rufus Well-Known Member

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    Off the steroids since diagnosis. Nov 21st I believe.
     
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  14. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    Are you home testing his glucose, or are all test numbers from vet?
     
  15. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    It's possible that the insulin dose is causing a phenomenon we refer to as "bouncing". It happens when the dose is too high and the BG levels shoot up to high numbers and stay there. The dose is increased over and over until the cat crashes. Her's something I use to explain bouncing:
    1. BG goes low OR lower than usual OR drops too quickly.
    2. Kitty's body panics and thinks there's danger (OMG! My BG is too low!).
    3. Complex physiologic processes take glycogen stored in the liver (I think of it as "bounce fuel"), convert it to glucose and dump it into the bloodstream to counteract the perceived dangerously low BG.
    4. These processes go into overdrive in kitties who are bounce prone and keep the BG propped up varying lengths of time (AKA bouncing).
    5. Bounce prone kitty repeats this until his body learns that healthy low numbers are safe. Some kitties are slow learners.
    6. Too high a dose of insulin can keep them bouncing over and over until the " bounce fuel" runs out and they crash - ie., have a hypo episode. That's why we worry so much about kitties that have had too high a starting dose prescribed by the vet and the owner isn't home testing.
     
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  16. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Ondansetron dosing for 10lb/4.5kg cat is 1-2mg q8hrs up to a maximum of 4mg/day. Many find that starting on 2mg ondansetron q12hrs gets it working faster, although it can take 24-36hrs to reach full therapeutic effect. Some members here administer Cerenia and ondansetron in tandem. Both drugs work on different receptors to alleviate nausea, plus Cerenia can exert some anti-inflammatory benefit. B12 injections can also help with inflammation (and appetite).

    If pancreatitis symptoms are more severe then buprenorphine may be needed for pain management (and it may be occult pain one is dealing with, so tricky again).


    Mogs
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  17. Sean & Rufus

    Sean & Rufus Well-Known Member

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    I'm not testing at home, because both vets told me I didn't need to and because I really didn't want to due it because of being uncomfortable doing it and I am already pestering him enough that he's starting to give me dirty looks :)
     
  18. Sean & Rufus

    Sean & Rufus Well-Known Member

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    He was on buep for 3 days in Nov. Day 2 was super awesome, day 3 was so-so. That med is super expensive though. I was given some gabapentin by the Vet dentist. Didn't seem to improve anything, and made him super tired (more so than already).
     
  19. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I'll encourage you to give this some thought. It's really the best way to know whether insulin is helping and to keep your kitty safe from a hypo.
     
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  20. Sean & Rufus

    Sean & Rufus Well-Known Member

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    The extremely hard part of this is he is only eating super liquified foods right now. 1 can of food to 1/2 can water in food processor. Last week he tried and ate dry food for the first time in a couple months. Both vet and dentist vet think it's not a tooth issue, but the pancreatitis. Dentist won't do anything until he's "fair" on the fructosamine test. The dentist gave me the gabapentin. I tried it for 2 days, no noticable diff. Also, didn't give him a pepcid for a day, and been kinda downhill since.
     
  21. Sean & Rufus

    Sean & Rufus Well-Known Member

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    thanks Kris, I am actually going to talk to the vet tomorrow and get a home test. I do think that is the best idea, because I know he gets stressed at the vet.
     
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  22. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    Please do consider home testing. It’s not hard. To do and is really the only way to keep Rufus safe and k ow how well the insulin is working. Are you testing for ketones?
     
  23. Sean & Rufus

    Sean & Rufus Well-Known Member

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    Sharon, Those are my exact worries. I am so impatient to get him regulated, but I think she's moving the doses too fast. I keep asking how do I know if he's hypo and she said I'll know because he'll be lethargic. Well, he's almost always lethargic now!
     
  24. Sean & Rufus

    Sean & Rufus Well-Known Member

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    Not doing ketones either. I assume I need to read up on this too!
     
  25. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Urine ketone testing is another good tool. Here are some ways to do it:
    • put the end of the test strip right in his urine stream as he's peeing
    • slip a shallow, long handled spoon under his backside to catch a little pee - you don't need much
    • put a double layer of plastic wrap over his favourite part of the litter box and poke some depressions in it too catch pee.
    Most test strips have to be dipped and allowed to develop for 15 seconds before viewing the colour change in very good light.

    You can buy urine ketone test strips in any human pharmacy.
     
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  26. Sean & Rufus

    Sean & Rufus Well-Known Member

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    I do truly believe this all started because of food intolerance. I just got some new food for him today and he's actually eating it, so I'm crossing my fingers and this will help the pancreatisits! Thank you all for helping me, so frustrating seeing him look "well" and have high numbers and crappy and have high numbers.
     
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  27. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    Please get the ketone strips and test. High numbers and not eating enough can lead to ketones and the sooner you catch that the better
     
  28. Sean & Rufus

    Sean & Rufus Well-Known Member

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    Ok will do. What are ketones?
     
  29. Sean & Rufus

    Sean & Rufus Well-Known Member

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    Bladder infections?
     
  30. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Ketones can form and circulate in the bloodstream of a diabetic cat when their BG is too high, they're dehydrated, haven't been eating or have some infection/inflammation going on. The kitty's body starts breaking down its own tissues and releases ketones in the process. If they build up they can make the kitty very seriously ill, a disease called diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA). Treatment usually involves a very expensive stay in a veterinary ICU for several days. It can be life threatening. This is one of many reasons why we're such huge proponents of tracking BG at home and being very hands on with the diabetes treatment.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
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  31. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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  32. Sean & Rufus

    Sean & Rufus Well-Known Member

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    Oh wow! I'm surprised the vet never discussed this. Thank you for the info!
     
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  33. Sean & Rufus

    Sean & Rufus Well-Known Member

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    btw, not sure if anybody can answer this. I want the vet to give him sub q fluids, because when he had it the first time it seemed to help a lot, and also and if he's short on any vitamins. She won't give it to him though because she's worried it will raise his already high BG. Do diabetic cats ever get sub q or is that normally reserved for kidney cats?
     
  34. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    If anything sub-qs are more likely to lower BG levels by dilution. My Saoirse has had IV fluids at times for dehydration (related to pancreatitis and eating issues).

    I suggest posting a separate question on Feline Health asking for input from caregivers of diabetic cats who also use sub-qs. I would imagine that caregivers managing FD and CKD concurrently should be able to offer some insight.


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  35. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I know that sub Q fluids can help with pancreatitis and owners often learn to do it at home. I'm not sure why your vet thinks it would raise his BG - stress?
     
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  36. Sean & Rufus

    Sean & Rufus Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I really just want to try it once more to give him a kick start so to speak.
     
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  37. Sean & Rufus

    Sean & Rufus Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure why either, except she said there are sugars in the fluids and also about disrupting the lantus. I really think she hasn't been asked about this before and didn't know how to respond. I've asked her to give him a treatment a couple times and she pretty much says he doesn't need it because he's not dehydrated. I'll put this on my list of questions for her tomorrow.
     
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  38. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Normally the subQ fluids don't have sugar in them. I think it's just saline solution. An IV drip of glucose can be used in hospital as part of the treatment for other things including hypoglycemia.
     
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  39. Sean & Rufus

    Sean & Rufus Well-Known Member

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    So sorry if this is a dumb question. Hard to wrap head around it. So if he is getting too high of a dose, yet his BG numbers are high, how would we know if the dose is too high? He would eventually have a hypo incident? His new dose it 5 and 5. If I home test and the number is normal, does that mean everything is Ok and the increases had been warranted? My concern is that his body is just adjusting to the higher doses and hopefully isn't needed. Isn't 5 and 5 a lot? And who even knows where the numbers will end at as hes still not regulated.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
    Reason for edit: added info
  40. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Yes, as per item 6 in the bouncing explanation. Basically, kitty is using up reserves of glycogen in the liver to convert to glucose (complex biochemical processes) to prop up the BG that's being pushed down hard by too high a dose of insulin. It's a self protective measure. Once those reserves are gone, down goes the BG and kitty crashes. It's also possible the the bounce-inflated high BG levels can trigger ketone formation which can lead to DKA.

    You don't know if a dose is too high unless you see hypo symptoms or you have a BG testing routine in place.
     
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  41. Sean & Rufus

    Sean & Rufus Well-Known Member

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    Ok. thank you so much for helping me. I truly appreciate it. I think for the sanity of me and and Rufus's health I need to be a big boy and home test him!
     
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  42. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    :):D:smuggrin::woot:!!!!
     
  43. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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  44. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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  45. donnalea

    donnalea Member

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  46. donnalea

    donnalea Member

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    Our Callie has been going quite well for almost 2 years. I noticed that she had some diadestive problems. I noticed that she got dierahha when ever we gave her salmon flavored food. I stopped giving it to her but just about every thing caused problems. I talked to the vet who suggested we give her only one flavored food for a week and keep a journal to see what foods bothered her. It turns out that Callie can eat turkey and chicken as long as there is no fish or liver. I order Fancy Feast by the case from Amazon. Mostly chicken or Sheba turkey. Ours next plan is to buy frozen ground rabbit and see if she likes it. It takes time and patience, but it is well worth it
     
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  47. PussCatPrince - GA

    PussCatPrince - GA Well-Known Member

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    Hi from New Zealand S&R.
    You've definitely come to the right place. Since me and Tyler landed here my pusscat has been doing far better.

    You'll find your intro post in the Lanctus forum now <---- click the link. It had so much good details it got moved there where more Lanctus people hang out.

    Welcome :bighug:
     
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  48. Sean & Rufus

    Sean & Rufus Well-Known Member

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    I suspect the intolerance is to turkey, but could be fish. He is (until last night) only eating Fancy Feast seafood flavors. It's hard to say for sure what is in those canned foods as far as protein goes. I switched him to Wysong rabbit last night and he's eating it so far!
     
  49. PussCatPrince - GA

    PussCatPrince - GA Well-Known Member

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    Rats! That's difficult. Hope you pinpoint the issue.

    I expect you are already aware that Wysong is not considered a balanced food for our cats but a supplement which can be fed in with other balanced foods.
    From the food guide HERE
     
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  50. Sean & Rufus

    Sean & Rufus Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I know unfortunately. I'm trying to get him to eat some of his dry food also. I'm hoping that eating this wysong for a couple weeks will help improve his pancreatits and in turn will get him to have less pain and be able to eat the dry food. Other plan will be to look for taurine supplement or have to go back to RC selective.
     
  51. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    I was on another thread discussion today about pancreatitis and the subject of catnip came up. Several of us have noticed that catnip seems to help kitties with pancreatitis. It has analgesic properties. It certainly helped Saoirse to lick her catnip toy when she had a bit of discomfort after eating. (She did need bupe during flares.)


    Mogs
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    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
  52. Sean & Rufus

    Sean & Rufus Well-Known Member

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    Thanks I'll give that a try!
     
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  53. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    I'd be very interested to hear back from you about whether it helps Rufus any.


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  54. Sean & Rufus

    Sean & Rufus Well-Known Member

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    Well, vet refuses to allow sub q fluids...I really don't want to rock the boat with her, but jeez. He's definitely has bad stomach right now. She's going to look into ondansetron for him. Gave him some gabapentin and he's been sleepy all day.
     
  55. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    If you need a reference to cite for the appropriateness of ondansetron for nausea control from a highly reputable source, here's a helpful document:

    IDEXX Feline Pancreatitis Treatment Guidelines

    Covers all anti-nausea and appy stimulant treatments.


    Mogs
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  56. Sean & Rufus

    Sean & Rufus Well-Known Member

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    She wasn't opposed to it, she offered cerenia again but I said it didn't really work last time and was expensive. I also said that by the digging around I did, generic ondansetron seemed to be less expensive. She was going to get back to me on cost and dosage today but never did. He wouldn't touch the wysong rabbit today, but ate the fancy feast so at least he's eating something!
     
  57. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    That's the most important thing of all.

    :bighug:


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  58. Larry and Kitties

    Larry and Kitties Well-Known Member

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    Ondansetron is mainly for nausea while Cerenia for vomiting. Both can be given together. Also, Cerenia is dose once daily while ondansetron twice daily
     
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  59. Sean & Rufus

    Sean & Rufus Well-Known Member

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    Thanks! He never vomits (Or VERY rarely), so maybe that's why the cerenia had not effect on him. Hopefully we can give the Ondansetron a whirl. He has been eating pretty good, just not what I want him to eat. What I really need to find is something to make his rabbit food smell like fish :)
     
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