Found out Joey is diabetic this week.

We started him on 1U of Humulin N, as our vet instructed us. I have read it's not the best kind of insulin for cats.

Joey had been losing weight, passing lots of urine, and drinking lots of water in the past couple of months. We took him to the vet about six weeks ago. When we first tested him, he had a tiny bit of sugar in his urine. I transitioned him from kibble and some wet food to a combination raw and low-carbohydrate canne food diet. He started losing lots of weight, which we attributed to the change of diet at first. He had begun to drink less water, so we thought we might have caught whatever it was on time.

But last week he started drinking more water again, and when tested, his blood sugar was 370. That's when we began the insulin. Our vet hadn't mentioned a glucometer, but on reading up on diabetes, I decided to get one for him. Today his reading was 222. We gave him 1/2U of insulin because he seemed so week and lethargic on any higher dose. Our vet had said not to give him any insulin if his reading was under 200, so we just gave him a small dose.

We are really flying blind. I'm reading up all I can on all the good studies and advice that is available, but I'm concerned about Joey. He's only 8.5 pounds, down from 13. His once-powerful muscles are skin, bone and sinew. I'd appreciate any suggestions that might help him. We have a good vet, but he's not a specialist in cat diabetes.

 

Hi and welcome to the group.

Changing his diet is a great start! And home testing is vitally important. You need to know and understand what's going on. So good for you!

Regarding the insulin, you're right to be concerned, N is not an easy insulin to use. It's a short acting insulin - meaning it only lasts 8-10 hours and if you are shooting twice a day (BID) then he is going several hours without insulin and this can be hard for him and a rollercoaster for you.

May I suggest that you go back to the vet and ask for a different insulin. The ones I recommend are the L's - lantus or levimer. Even the new PZI - prozinc is a better option than N.

Here is the link to the Lantus forum - please go over there and read the starred posts at the top and you will learn all about lantus and levimer. viewforum.php?f=9

These two insulins work very similar in the cat, which is why we lump them together.

The weakness and lethargy could be because the dose is too high, could be because it's working fast in his system and may have dropped him too low, too fast. I used Lantus and was pleased, I was even able to get Maui into remission using Lantus.

I recommend you put together a hypo tool kit: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2354

And you read this on how to treat hypos: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1122


It's great that you are now home testing, you can start to build up his spreadsheet with information, which will make it easier for others to help you. Here are instructions on setting up your own spreadsheet: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=16

I do know the one thing you will be told repeatedly is to change insulin. Trust me, change and within a couple weeks, you will be thrilled that you did.

And please remember to breathe - you are doing great so far, food, home testing, now we just need to help you change insulin and you will start to see results.

 

Yes, Humulin N is a faster acting insulin, so it can bring their blood glucose down quickly, but it does not stay down long enough to give them relief.

Have you asked your vet about different insulins? If they are unwilling to consider one not FDA approved for cats (Lantus aka glargine and Levemir aka detemir), please consider a different vet as well. The research is out there, especially on Lantus and they should be able to contact any veterinary teaching hospital about it to learn more.

In the meantime, continue home testing his blood glucose, especially before each shot. Make a chart or graph to help you keep track. We have links in our tech forum available for how to make a Google spreadsheet.

Good luck and keep asking questions.

 

Thanks so much for the advice. Joey is so weak and lethargic it's pitiful. He's always been so strong and vibrant, it troubles me to see his rapid decline.

I gave him less than a half unit today, and also injected some B12. All he seems to want to eat is raw liver, and I don't know if that is OK or not. He drank some water, and was able to stand to drink, but he's been dozing all day. He's really run down.

I'll do the research on the other insulins and call my vet today. Maybe I can get him started on another insulin by this evening. I'll do so tomorrow at the very latest. Meanwhile, if I can't reach my vet today, does anyone think I should divide up his dose and give him a small amount of Humulin N every eight hours? And has anyone had any luck with herbal and/or homeopathic supplements for their cat's diabetes?

This forum is very helpful, and the input is appreciated. Like others here, my fur people are beloved family members, and I want to take the best possible care of Joey in his time of need.

 

I also meant to add that his reading was 238 this morning on half a unit last night. I gave him another half, but am very uncertain about dosing.

 

Hi and welcome.

Was a full blood panel done? It's always good to rule out other things too. Rule out hyperthyroidism for the weight loss and infection for the sugar, things like that.

Do you have any ketone testing sticks? You can pick them up at the pharmacy. I'd want to check for ketones and that can be easy, some cats will just let you put the strip in the urine stream, some folks use a soup spoon to catch some, or you could try to dip the strip as soon as he pees to get a test.

The weakness on one unit is the only reason I'm concerned. In the past when I used N, it would wear off pretty quickly, Tucker would metabolize within 6 hours, then he'd spend six hours going high before his next shot, it was a roller coaster for him.

Was he weak before today?

Great that you are hometesting already, that's the best way to help your kitty, that and the food that you've changed to. By changing food the BGs (blood glucose numbers) usually come down naturally. Have you been able to spot check today to see how he did on the 1/2U?

 

Yes, a full blood panel was done, and all came back within normal limits. That is part of what is confusing me. He had been growing weaker before today, but had seemed to rally on his raw diet.

The past couple of days have really seen him crash. I'll get the ketone strips and test for that. I'm also having trouble getting through the instructions on how to do the spread sheet. All the information and concern about Joey's health is making doing the spread sheet a bit of a challenge.

 

Until you can get the spreadsheet can you post some numbers?

AM PS (Morning Preshot BG), with + (number of hours) with BG

As an example:

AM PS 222 1/2U N
+2 ___ (2 hours later, what BG)
+4 ___ (4 hours from the AM preshot, what BG)
+6 ___ (6 hours from the AM preshot...)

Just whatever times you got, doesn't have to be 2, 4 and 6 hours. Let's just check and make sure you don't have a hypo situation or ketones situation.

How's his appetite today?

 

The only other read I have is this morning's read, which was 238, and I gave him a half unit of insulin before he ate. His appetite was excellent. He ate about 1 1/2 chicken livers greedily. But he's weak, and not drinking as much water as he has been. He usually rests on our bed, but has chosen to use our dog Sophie's old crate, which we keep open as a place to retreat for the furbies. There is always fresh water there for the two cats and Sophie. It's in a cool, quiet part of the room. He can see us, but it's dark and cave-like in the interior, as I put a cover over it.

Joey stirs and re-settles himself from time to time, but that's the limit of his activity today.

When Joey had a vet visit last December, he weighed 13 pounds. At 8.5 pounds, he's a shadow of his former self. We are going to get some ketone strips to test his urine. Other than that, I don't know what to do. Our vet is out on an emergency call.

 

Just want to clarify... he eats more than just chicken livers right? He gets canned food or raw that has the vitamins and minerals he needs?

Sorry if you mentioned that already, I just want to clarify that.

 

Joey is being very fussy about food. The chicken livers are the only thing he will eat today. Yesterday he had some low-carb canned food in addition. I tried him on some cat vitamins that are made with liver, but no go. He refused canned food today, too.

How often should I be feeding him? I have been trying to get him to eat every four hours or so.

 

He is going to need more than the livers, as you know. What type of canned are you trying.

There are low carb versions of Fancy Feast, Friskies, and 9-lives as well as Wellness and other higher end canned. We feed Fancy Feast the loaf varieties, the gluten free becaue Tucker is allergic to gluten.

To entice kitties to eat you could try warming the food in the microwave to bring out the scent and flavor. Sprinkle with parmesian cheese, crumble some freeze dried chicken on top, sprinkle with catnip, add tuna juice.

Everyone is different, but my cats eat four times per day simply because I am able to come home for lunch. They get 1/2 can of Fancy Feast at each feeding. One of my boys does like raw food so he gets a medallion of Nature's Variety raw, sometimes two medallions, but he also gets some canned.

For snacks they eat freeze dried chicken, freeze dried tuna flakes or deli turkey/chicken or baked chicken, depending on what my husband decides to share

If Joey won't eat the new food, feed him some of his old food so that he can get his strength back. Eating is as important as insulin.

 

I use Wellness canned food. He finally ate some this afternoon, but he is still very, very weak and listless. He is definitely weaker today than he was yesterday, and I'm very worried. He has eaten about the same amount of food, but isn't drinking much water.

 

Can you get a blood sugar number and post it?

Do you know the signs of Hypoglycemia?

 

I'll get the reading and post it, and have read about hypoglycemic symptoms but don't really understand them.
Back with numbers.

 

Hi Bonni
This is s atough welcome for you.
I am not familiar with how Humulin works as we were Lantus users but eyes are on you so plesae come bck with an BG number for Joey.
Did you give im any insulin tonight or was this morning the last time.

It is very important for Joey to eat.
Do you have baby food you can get. Plain chicken or turkey, no other ingredients.

 

The Glucometer Elite reading said "lo". Joey is in my lap, purring. We will try for another reading.

 

Lo means hypo, do you have any karo syrup or honey? Any gravy canned food.

 

I'll give him some maple syrup. The vet said 2-3CCs yesterday. I'll see how he does.

 

Give him the syrup and then check his BG in about 10-15 minutes. Post the number when you get it.

 

I tried to give him 2 1/2CCs, but I think I only got about 1CC down his throat. I'll check his blood in another 10 minutes. I hope help is back by then. They were off to get him baby food and to try for new batteries for the glucometer, as we didn't know how to interpret a "lo" reading.

Will 1CC of the maple syrup do, or should I try to give him more?

He's been very restless all day. Joey will partly sit up, then turn around, and sit down again. He seems to prefer the cold floor of the crate to his usual perch on the bed. He refused the canned food he usually loves. I don't know whether to try him on more raw chicken livers or not. Chicken liver seems to be his favorite food at present, and he needs to eat. I don't know if it is better to wait for the baby food or give him liver.

At least there's still a purr in Joey when I feed him or prick him. We call it his chocolate purr, it's so rich and beautiful.

The guys are back with the food. Will check in after a bit.

 

Hi Bonni
Not sure what you mean about the cc's but a good thing to do with the syrup is to rub it on his gums as it will get into is blood faster.

 

You want to rub the syrup on his gum's and repeat if necessary - until you get him to eat some food on his own - canned, with gravy is good, or even some dry food.

LO on the meter is usually less than 20 - need immediate action on your part. If you can't get the number higher you need to take him to the closest ER.

Please repeat the syrup, and test in 10 minutes.

 

Did you give insulin tonight? Also, can I confirm you gave only 1/2 Unit of N this morning. It's halfway up to the first mark on the syringe or the halfway mark on the syringe if you have 1/2U marked syringes. It wasn't have the syringe, right? Sorry if that sounds like an obvious question, I just want to be sure we're talking the same dose.

Definitely give the more syrup as others mentioned.

 

Just took the blood. Reading 81. Will try him on the baby food now.

The vet said no insulin if the reading is under 200, so it looks like no insulin tonight.

Is just trying to get him to eat enough for the night?

By CCs above I meant cubic centimeters. The vet gave me a syringe to use when he's hypo.

 

Okay, 81 is a safe number. No insulin tonight.

Tomorrow's BG may be high because of the syrup but do not increase the dose.

Regarding the dose of insulin, I wanted to be sure it was only 1/2 a Unit, not 1/2 a CC. It's not half of the syringe for the insulin, is it?

 

Definitely only half a unit. I use the tiny insulin syringes.The syrup gets measured in CCs.

He refused the baby food. I'll let him be tonight. He's hanging out with us on the bed, and purring when patted, but he certainly is weak as a kitten.

 

Tomorrow call the vet, let them know what happened and maybe it's time to look at a more gentle insulin. I would recommend Lantus, the may know it is Glargine. It's a fantastic insulin that will keep Joey's numbers relatively low and flat once you get the correct dose.

Maybe ask the vet about some blood tests, try to figure out why he won't eat. But for now, get some rest

 

Does anyone know whether Lantus or Levemir is better? From reading the descriptions of the two, Levemir seems somehow better from the standpoint that it circulates in the blood, rather than being distributed from a subcutaneous pocket.

I'm going to call our vet and ask for a prescription for one or the other. I'll post Joey's morning read in a bit when I get some help. Thanks to those who helped me get Joey through the night. I was all flustered and worried, and that doesn't help Joey one bit.

He slept on the bed last night. He had been on the floor of the crate, but jumped up during the night. I was so grateful to wake up and see him there

 

Lantus and Lev are both fantastic choices. For newly dx kitties, from what I've read, Lantus is a great choice. I use Levemir but Tucker has been FD since 2005 and on several insulins until I found the Lev.

I think you could not go wrong with either. They are both expensive, but I suggest you get, with either of them, a script for the pen cartridges.

Rather than a vial, the cartridges come in 3ML inserts for humans to use a pen delivery system. Cats don't use the pen because you can't get a small enough dose and the needle, according to my pharmacist is too small. Just use the cartridge like a vial. What this does is perserve the insulin. Rather than open an entire vial that is expensive and could possibly go bad before using it up or you drop and break it (knock wood that doesn't happen), with the cartridges they stay longer and fresher. It's expensive at first but well worth it.

If you have AAA you can probably get a discount at the pharmacy.

 

When my cat, Tray was on Cannisulin(Humilin) he had two hypo incidents, one which landed him in the ER for 2 days. After that scare I demanded my vet find another insulin. We're on Lantus now for the past few weeks and trying to find the right dose for him. I'm so much more happy with this insulin as its gentle and Tray seems so much happier and healthier.

 

Now I'm really confused. His reading was 76. That's even lower than last night. I tried to offer him his favorite food, raw chicken livers, but no go. I'll try the baby food. I have never fed him Fancy Feast, but I'll get some and try that. Basically, I'll try anything that might help him.

With the reading so low, it seems he won't need insulin. I can call the vet, but his recent blood panels were all normal.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

 

First, no insulin.

Second, we may have a diet controlled diabetic here. But that means you need to find some food that he's going to eat and that has the right balance of nutrients.

For right now, maybe ask the vet about picking up a couple cans of prescription A/D, only because most cats will eat it and it's packed full of vitamins and minerals. Then we try to find a food that Joey will eat.

I adopted an FD in December, Mr. Darcy, before coming to my house from the South they changed his diet to canned Fancy Feast from dry. The very first night at my house, after driving from VA to CT he never needed insulin again. The change in diet alone helped Mr. Darcy go "off the juice" or become diet controlled. He cannot have dry food or high carb because he will probably need insulin if he does, but he's very happy and content eating Fancy Feast and raw food.

 

Joey is still on the bed and very listless. I managed to get him to lick about 1/4th of a teaspoon of beef baby food off of my finger, but that was it.

 

Listless again but no insulin?

Can you get him to the vet?

I'm concerned about the electrolytes. I know I sound like a broken record lately regarding potassium, but from what I've only recently learned and how it affected Tucker, listless is a first sign of low potassium.

 

Maybe I should try Joey on an electrolyte solution. I'll also call the vet.

 

Get bloodwork done first if you can.

Too much potassium can also be bad.

We want to get to the bottom of why he's getting sick like this. But definitely don't give insulin at this point and at the vet, the blood sugar number could be elevated simply from stress so if the vet recommends insulin, hold off for a bit, wait for Joey to relax at home, retest and then decide about insulin. "White Coat Syndrome" or vet stress will cause higher BGs for most cats.

Please know I'm no expert or vet, so it's best that you do talk to your vet about electrolytes and what else may be going on.

You're doing great so far

 

Thanks so much, Jennifer. I'm really at a loss, and I have business matters I need to attend to. My husband will cancel his day and look after Joey, but I'll have to be the one online and consulting back and forth with him.

There's a vet who also uses Chinese herbs nearby. Maybe we should consult with him. He might have some other ideas. Have you every tried anything like that?

 

Tried Chinese herbs for a diabetic name Sadie who had heart disease, tried them for her heart, but didn't help. Also tried a homeopathic vet for my neuro kitty, Lilly Grace, but that didn't help. However, those are just my experiences, maybe it would help your boy, but right now, my concern would be getting some bloodwork done and see what the values are.

Glad DH ("dear" "darling" or whatever D-word - "husband" or "honey") is helping out today. My DH is sometimes a "dumb husband" but most of the time dear when it comes to helping with the cats

 

By the way, what City and State are you in, assuming US Maybe we have a member nearby that can help out if need be.

 

Bill is feeding him some water with electrolytes with a dropper, and he's permitting this without too much fuss. I own a health food store, and have many forms of electrolyte solutions. I added a small amount of B12 to try to give him a little energy. I'll report in when I see how he does. I agree that you have to be careful with potassium, so I added only a couple of milligrams.

 

I'm in Vermont, and the nearest vet that I would use is in Morrisville. Our regular vet is Steve Woodard in Waterbury. He is very well-respected. Do you think we should have more blood work done today? The last test was taken less than a week ago, and I hate to traumatize Joey with another visit, but will do so if necessary.

 

Joey is attempting to stand up, but his hindquarters are very weak.

 

Do you have the bloodwork results from last week? Maybe we can see if something was on the low end.

B12 is great for energy. Tucker recieves B12 injections usually once a week or once every two weeks.

 

Great idea! I have a call into the vet. Will report in as soon as I hear. My heart lifts a little every time Joey lifts his head, which he just did. At least his tail isn't ker-flicketing, which it does when he's annoyed. It stopped after he had the electrolyte solution. He seems a bit more calm. Right now I'll take anything that looks like improvement.

 

Improvement is good.

 

Hi Bonnie,
I hope you are getting Joey in to see the vet. The weak hindquarters, lethargy, inappetance, and rapid weight loss are worrisome. There may be something besides diabetes going on. I think any cat too weak to stand or move around much needs to see the vet.

 

Hi Bonnie,
I'm just reading through your thread for the first time and want to make sure I have everything straight in my head.
Am I correct in thinking that Joey had a reading of LO last night but after administering karo he came up to 81 -- then this morning (12 hours after his last shot of insulin) he had a reading of 78 ?

My questions are:
1.) how long after his shot last night did he get the reading of LO? -- was it 2 hours after or 4 hours or 6 etc... ? (this makes a difference as to whether he was done dropping or not )
2.) did you test him anymore after getting the 81? (I ask this because he was 78 this morning and he may have dropped again last night after the short acting karo wore off)

I'm concerned about his listlessness -- any additional info would be helpful

edited to add --- if this is a correct run down of how his numbers went last night, please be sure to inform your vet when you speak to him.

 

He had no insulin last night. I'm waiting for the vet to call, and will call another if I don't hear back from him soon.

 

okay sorry - no insulin last night.
How long after his insulin shot was it when he had the LO reading?

 

It was about seven hours after his last insulin shot that he had the lo reading.

 

I finally heard back from the vet's office. Joey is going in at three this afternoon. The assistant said to give him some more maple syrup, which we will do, then check his level 15 minutes later. I'll report back on the reading then.

 

I'm going to start a new thread for Joey, as this one is getting long. Thanks again to all who are helping Joey - it also helps me