Frankie, Newly Diagnosed

Hi,

My name is Dan and my cat Frankie was just diagnosed with diabetes. I have read through the stickys on the board here and have acclimated myself to a lot of the terminology, however I know I am not alone in that fact that I have no idea where to start. The vet has recommended hospitalization as she is very emaciated. Sadly, I cannot afford to do so. Frankie has a sister, Mollie, who I have raised from when their umbilical cords were still attached and their eyes still shut. I rescued them from a vacant home when it was 110 degrees outside about 9 1/2 years ago. The vet has said that we can do in home treatment, but the costs there were adding up exponentially and I have already spent over $300 on the testing to find out what was wrong. Adding to the stress is my wife and I are currently pregnant with identical twins and we also have a 5 1/2 year old son. Last night, I was ready to take her in to be euthanized, but today i have been reading a lot about in home management and I have some renewed hope. At this point the Vet has indicated that the diabetic consult will be another $100 and there will be several tests needed ranging from $25 per day to $75. Again, I cannot afford to do so. Every penny we have right now is being devoted to medical and necessity needs of the twins. I have several friends who are diabetic... and I have an aunt who has successfully treated a diabetic cat as well. I know I need quick action at this point and it seems that I need a home tester, some Karo syrup, insulin and syringes. Like I said she is very emaciated and she needs to gain weight, so I am not sure where to start. I am afraid to talk to my vet about what I am going to do, but my only other option is to euthanize and that kills me because she seems happy and does not seem to be in pain. Please can I have some insight on where to go, what to do next.... I need to figure out what I'm going to do because my 5 1/2 year old thinks I was taking her in and if I am not I want to be confident that I am doing the right thing.

Thank you!!

Dan

 

hi Dan

welcome to FDMB - its really overwhelming at first but just take a step back and try to relax a little.
After initial dx, I didn't take my cat to the vet for 3 mths - and that was for a cold, nothing to do with her diabeties.

As long as there are no other health issues, you can manage her condition at home - it doesn't need to be a death sentence

Ok - so, first off is why is Frankie so emaciated?
Is she not eating or eating but losing weight? If eating ok, weight loss is normal with an unregulated diabetic - she will improve as she gets in better blood glucose numbers.
But, you can feed her more food in the meantime - wet/canned is preferable as its sooo much better for them and can reduce her bg by maybe 100 points so she may not even need insulin.
You can put her on Friskies pates or Fancy Feast classic pates - both low carb so good for diabetics.
What does she eat at the moment?

Next, has she started on insulin? If so, then yes, you do need to start bg testing. If not, the switch to wet food may be enough, but don't switch if you've started insulin as you could end up over-dosing her. That would need to be a more gradual transition.
Do you have any bg numbers for her - the ones from the vet?
Any other blood work results?

PS. you don't actually need to tell your vet anything - remember, they provide a service for you ;-)

 

Frankie has always been much slimmer and dainty than Moliie, who we lovingly call fatty. The reason I took Frankie in is that she was urinating blood. I read up online and determined it to be a urinary tract infection... I'm now learning that it is because of the diabetes. On Saturday they gave her a shot of antibiotics for the blood in urine and took the blood sample for the full senior cat work up. They also did a test to besure there was not kidney damage... or renal failure. He 1st level was high due to the dehydration, but the other level was normal so no renal failure. When she came home, I put her in the bathroom with a towel in the tub, one of the litter boxes (clean) and some food and water.... she peed, but no poop and it looks like she ate a little, but I could not tell for sure. They both currently eat Nutro indoor dry food on an open basis which I know has to change. Mollie eats some Friskies Pate wet food at night, but Frankie has never shown interest in wet food (sometimes she have a bit, but Mollie is a freak about it)

I have not started any insulin (currently I have nothing and am planning a trip to Walmart shortly) I don't know what insulin to start with or even if I can get it (I'm in AZ so it doesn't look like I need a prescription)

At the moment I don;t think the switch to wet food will be enough because she is very bony, but I'm very new at this, so I have no clue.

 

This site has some tips for transitioning to wet for ardent kibble lovers - catinfo.org - transitioning to wet food

I haven't heard about blood in urine as being related to diabeties (may be wrong) - I would have thought UTI.
You said she had an antibiotic shot - do you know what she was given?

The prefered insulins on this site are lantus, Levemir and prozinc. Most members probably use lantus.
Walmart have it, Costo was cheaper - I needed a prescription.

 

I think is was UTI but as a complication of the dehydration.

 

Also the shot she was given was covenia

 

I spoke with the pharmacy and the OTC insulin Relizen N, Humilin R, Humilan N and Humilin 70/30 are $25 per 10ml (1000 units) These are within my affordability range and also do not require perscriptions. I will not be able to afford the ones you have stated above. Is there much success with these forms of insulin?

 

Generally, no - they are considered a 'harsh' insulin that causes the bg to dip fast and then they wear off fast.
So that cat is on a roller-coaster ride.

I've asked more experienced users to come over and give some advice.

 

The Vet says Glargine (Launtus) is the only thing I can give her... They are refusing to give me the prescription without the consult, so what do I do? I can't afford the consult and the glargene...

 

I thought you had a consult when they did the blood work - they said it was diabeties.
Do you mean they want to show you how to give the shot?

Where are you located? There may be another vet someone knows of who can help.

 

It is possible to obtain limited control using Humulin N, which lasts about 6-8 hours in the cat, but you'd need to be able to test and shoot 3 times a day for the best success.

We advise that you always home test before giving insulin, to make sure it is safe to do and when starting out, do not give insulin when the test is under 200. That number may be gradually reduced when you have data showing it is safe.

We advise testing about midway between shots to see how low the glucose is going; you want it to go no lower than 50. For Humulin, this would be 3 to 4 hours after the shot (+3, +4).

We recommend you monitor for ketones, a by-product of fat breakdown. Ketones may indicate diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA), a complication of diabetes which is expensive to treat and may be fatal. See my signature link Secondary Monitoring Tools for info on how to do that, as well as other tactics for assessment.

You may need to shop around for another vet; I have a signature link on Vet Interview Topics which may be helpful in the search.

The consult may be to esplain diet, feeding, shooting, testing, and monitoring your diabetic cat. It can be a lot to master on your own. If you can do that on your own, then tell them that, or show them test numbers and health status monitoring to prove it.

 

Did I miss any mention of the food you are giving your cats? If you are feeding any dry food, switch to a low carb wet food.... you may not even need to give ANY insulin because several cats are DIET CONTROLLED.

I would for sure start home testing, fix up the diet, and then after you have some numbers, you can re-visit the insulin part of the picture.

Quite often, cats BG numbers can be high because of infections as well, so once the UTI is cleared up with meds, and you have both cats on a good low carb WET food diet, you will know what's the next step.

 

Is the Purina Glucose test in addition to the Keto test, or is it one or the other?

 

Okay, I am going to make the switch to wet foods. They are both open fed Nutero Catmax indoor formula currently. But Mollie likes an evening treat of Friskies Pate... Frankie will sometimes come over and have some as well, so the transition should be relatively easy, what should I do yo make this happen? I will pick of a glucose tester today as well... which one is most cost effective?

 

Glucotest only shows rough glucose levels in the urine. For those to occur, the blood glucose must be over 240, the renal threshold. You get much more precise information from blood glucose testing, plus it is current at the time you collect. Urine tests reflect the accumulation over several hours and are affected by dehydration.

Urine ketone testing is done with Ketostix or similar generic product, obtained from a pharmacy section. In my signature link Secondary Monitoring Tools it explains how you use these.

WalMart ReliOn (Confirm, Prime, Vital) meters have been used quite successfully here, and the strips are inexpensive. Plus, the unbranded, generic versions of them are available at our shopping partner ADW (link above; purchases help subsidize this board)

 

What is meant by this?

 

Phoenix AZ.... I don't think I would have trouble giving the shot... but I am wanting to determine if this is necessary first. I am going to switch them over the the wet food only (they are used to Friskies Pate) so I am thinking I'll start feeding them each 1/2 can in the morning and again at night. Or is there a better brand that I can try?

 

There is a group called Diabetic Cats in Need (DCIN) that can help with supplies if you send in a request. This is their link
http://fdmb-cin.blogspot.com/p/education.html

One of the quickest ways you can help Frankie is to change his diet and get him off of the dry. It's best to do this before the insulin shots begin because it will change his overall blood glucose trends tremendously. Some kitties actually only need a change in diet and no insulin, but most need insulin for a while too. Also there are food charts of carbohydrate contents for popular canned foods, you want to stay below 10% so stay away from the gravy style ones completely. Here's a link for one called Janet and Binky's food charts
http://binkyspage.tripod.com/canfood.html Hopefully there's something on there that Frankie will LOVE!

Lantus is the best insulin and while the initial cost is a whopper when you're on a budget (approx 120.00) it lasts for 4 months so if you think about it, that's 30.00 a month, not too bad. As BJM said above, the other insulins aren't so great but if that's all you can afford, then follow BJM's advice...
Wal Mart has inexpensive syringes.
Make sure you get the ones with half unit marks on them for easier dosing. Also get a consult on this forum on how to read the syringe markings before you try dosing! Some people have misread and given 10 x the dose they really intended and it's been disastrous, so take your time getting prepared for all of this. There are stickies above with dosing recommendations (depending on the insulin you choose) images of how to read the syringes, videos of how to test your cat, and how to give a shot etc. Take your time learning to test blood glucose before you get into giving shots. Any questions on any of these processes or where to find the stickies or images, just post a new subject and click on the question mark icon. People will answer as quick as they are able.

Folks here will help you tremendously with advice on how to home test, which blood glucose meters are best (some are crappy for cats....ok for people, so ask here before buying! and some have very inexpensive strips and some have super expensive strips which add to costs tremendously over time.....basically the Walmart Relion meters are good and have the cheapest strips...look for the ones that have a low sample volume so it's easier to test your kitty)

The nice thing is that there's the potential for going into remission so these costs are only temporary (best chances of this are using Lantus or Levemir....but is has happened with other insulins, just not often). My Molly only needed insulin for 3 months...she's on canned food and diabetic lifestyle for life, but at least for now all of the shots and testing are finished.
Best of luck for Frankie!

 

Sorry - those are models of glucometer.
ReliOn Confirm, ReliOn Prime, ReliOn Vital.


My friend misread the syringe and gave 10 units instead of 1 unit; that resulted in a $2,000 stay at the emergency vet.

You want U-100 syringes, with half-unit markings, in a 3/10 cc (also called ml) volume, with 5/8", 30 or 31 gauge needles. (slender, short needle tip, doesn't hold very much, and lets you measure as low as 0.5 units without eyeballing it).

 

Welcome to FDMB.......Relion is the brand name of the meters sold at Walmart.....confirm, prime are the diffent models under the relion brand. I use the relion confirm & the test strips are $20 for50....I think the prime test strips are $10 for 50. Also look at the top right hand corner of our site "home Testing Kits"...need one our webmaster & all the wonderful folks get you one, just pay s/h....click on the link above......again welcome & you'll have the experienced members walking you through & the rest of us giving you support & :YMHUG: :YMHUG: Cindy & Sabrina cat_pet_icon

 

Here is a pic of Mollie (Calico) and Frankie (Tabby)in better health (Probably about 5 years old here) They are both female... (Frankie was thought to be a male at first, and was named Frankie before we realized she was a female)

Anyways, I am off to Walmart to pick up the tester and some wet food... I haven't heard anyone mention that the Friskies Pate is a bad Idea, so that's what I'm getting, but I'll only pick up a bit just in case (They eat this anyway, but I am currently needing more)

 

Friskies Classic Pates, nothing with gravy, fish only 1-2 times a week.

I get the Turkey and Giblets for my 14.

 

Thank you, I can afford the tester and strips.... I just can't afford being forced into hospitalizing my cat and doing diabetic consults with the Vet... I am really disappointed about them anyways... don't have a lot of options in close proximity though.

 

Thank you!! I'll be back in a few hours...Need to pick up my son from school too.

 

Those are different models of BG meters sold by Walmart under the Relion brand. Target (if that is closer for you) also has a house brand meter Up & Up which is one of Consumer Reports top picks. The price is about the same. Most of us buy strips online or even on eBay for much less than in retail stores. Those strips are really the most expensive part of feline diabetes management. BG testing is done on the ear between the edge and the vein. If you've read the stickies, you know the basics. Or ask here when you have a question.

Lantus is a great insulin for cats. Generally we buy the pens in a 5pack. More expensive initially, but it saves a lot of money in the long run because thy last so much longer. if you have family members who have diabetes, do they use insulin? Could you buy a single pen from them if they use Lantus? Some Costco stores will sell a single pen as will some hospital pharmacies. I've also heard of extra pens sometimes being available on Craig's list.

As for the bloody pee, that is generally a sign of a UTI, either infection or inflammation. Although Convenia is not a great antibiotic for cats it should help to clear it up. Did the vet give any pain meds? That will help as UTI can be painful, cats associate the pain from peeing w/ the litter box and can start to go outside the box.

 

Another question for you..... HOW was your cat diagnosed as diabetic?
If the vet tested just his blood sugar and the meter gave a high number or bloodwork showed the high GLUCOSE number, then it is not proof of diabetes.

Usually, there is a test done, Fructosamine test, and it's the average of your cat's blood sugar over the last few weeks. If that number is on the high range, chances are good that your cat is having problems.

YES, Friskies pates are just fine. So are lots of the more economical wet foods like Special Kitty.... just stick to the pates - NO gravies, or grilled flavors.... if you do need to start insulin, you do need to keep a couple of the gravy / high carb cans around, just in case your Frankie goes a bit low on the insulin. If you do need to go with the cheaper humulin N, you definitely want to keep some high carb and karo on hand.

No, you don't need the vet to manage feline diabetes at all! All you need from the vet is the prescription for the insulin and then everything else can be done by YOU and AT HOME.

Here's a list of foods from which you can choose.... stick to the lowest carbs
http://www.catinfo.org/docs/FoodChartPublic9-22-12.pdf

The trick to it all is to home test and feed a low carb wet food diet.
Way too many cats get whisked onto insulin by their vets and at too high a dose and told to feed the expensive vet food.... just crazy. .. and expensive for no reason!

You test Frankie's BG at home with the meter ... those numbers will be true because Frankie's at home .. the numbers at the vet are most likely skewed by stress at being there, so I say those numbers are pretty much useless. No need for further tests or curves at the vet office. Test her at home.

The food is such a HUGE factor... one cat came to the site on 20units of insulin, but eating dry and high carb food. Once that cat got fed properly, that dose dropped like a rock down to 1u

Other cats on this site have started on insulin before they joined here and within weeks of switching to decent food, the cat was off insulin. Just think of the expense of buying all the supplies: insulin and syringes, and it's not needed.

Give Frankie some time to adjust to the food change, get used to testing, and keep posting.
She may well need a bit of insulin, but it will be a lesser amount, and maybe it will be for just a short time.

ETA: many cats have higher BG when they are sick, so once you clear up the infection, you will see lower BG

 

The test that was done was a senior profile blood test (cost $205)On the invoice it says T4,Fel/FIV,UA 90

They also did an in house test which was AHL-BUN and Creatinine

 

We have several people in Phoenix. Some have not posted in a while. I will send them emails and see if any can help.

I'm with the try the food first crowd. Change the food to all wet low carb, learn how to test and see what numbers she gets with the new diet.

 

I have the Reli on Confirm and 20 test strips to start. I have not fed the cats yet, but I don't know if they have been eating dry food today. I am going to put it away right now. I need to test Frankie before I feed her right? If so, what do I do?

 

Welcome Dan and Frankie Your cats are very beautiful, by the way.

Here is a link to how to home test.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J49mi-RtTdE&feature=youtu.be

 

Dan, what part of Phoenix are you in? If you're within driving distance of central Phoenix. I highly recommend Blue Cross Vet Clinic at 36th St. and Indian School Rd. and even more specifically, Dr. Brian Peter. He's been our vet for over 12 years now and has helped my cats through a lot of different illnesses.

 

I definitely would ask for a copy of the test results. I don't think a fructosamine is normally included in the senior profile. A single blood test is inconclusive because cats can be very stressed at the vet and that can raise the blood glucose levels.

I'm not sure what is meant by the UA 90. Different testers us different abbreviation, but I would think it is some sort of urine test panel.
T4 is a thyroid test
Fel/FIV is for virus testing
"AHL-BUN and Creatinine" not sure about the AHL (Animal Health Laboratories perhaps) BUN and creatinine are part of the normal blood panel and measure kidney function.

 

Thank you.

Her test is 467 mg/dl

I am going to put her in the bathroom with some food and water and monitor to see if she eats.

 

I'm in Laveen (51st Ave and Baseline)

 

I am going to pick that up tomorrow... I was pretty upset with the strong arm they were giving me to come in for the consult. I have a right to them , right?

 

What do I do with the lancet when it is done? I assume they are single use?

 

What is the glucose number on the bloodwork? It does not look like any fructosamine test was done.

 

Yes, you discard the used Lancet.
Since many are giving insulin, they have a Sharps container for discarding the syringes ... I just tossed the lancets in the same container.

 

Sounds like you first attempt at testing went well. Always try to test before feeding, any food eaten from 20 minutes to 2 hours before a test can really spike the numbers up. Especially when we shoot insulin we try to have a "fasting number" that means no food for 2 hours before the test.

yes, you definitely have a right to any test results! There should be no charge for them either! If you do decide to go to a new vet you can get full copies of all chart notes, but they may charge you a copying fee for that, usually about $10.

:lol: :lol: You type faster than i do. Lancets should be disposed of in a "sharps" container. An old milk bottle is good. Find out at a pharmacy what the local regulations are.

 

Get copies of ALL testing done; you want the results and tell them you keep a binder of everything for your cat. Even urinalysis results. Before you leave with the copies, look them over and ask questions on all items that you don't understand.
I also kept prints of all the billings; I wanted to see the breakdowns of every item in the total..
All those items, UA-90 and the rest, have them explained to you and take your time to write it all onto your copy of the billing.

 

Since I dont have a sharps container what is the safest way to dispose of them?

 

I don't know, I dont have the results yets

 

Frankie went right for the food. I am cooking the fam dinner right now, so I will check on her when we are done. When should I test her again?

 

I'd wait for at least 2 or maybe 3 hours since she last ate. An empty milk container works well for a sharps container.

 

Just peeked in on her and she hasn't eaten much.... but she did show interested and was eating when I put it down for her. How long should I give her on it?? Should I just leaver her in there with it? If so, when should I test again?

 

For testing, you don't need to worry about when you fed Frankie, except for the test at shot time.

You want the number at shot time to be free of food influence, so people pull up food 2hours before shot time, and that way, your test 2 hours later, at shot time, will be a true number with no food influence. A food influenced number may have you thinking it's safe to give a shot, but then an hour later, the food wears off and the numbers drop and then the insulin kicks in and drops the numbers even more.

During the cycle, just feed as usual because you want to know how food reacts with the insulin for your cat.... some cats spike high from meals and may need for their food to be spaced out into smaller mini meals. Test whenever you like because every test number contributes to the whole picture.

 

Since I tested before her meal (as if she ate the whole meal) would I want to test after to see what the food does to her levels?

 

Dan

Test her three hours after she eats to see if her pancreas is bringing her blood glucose down.

I live in Tucson but when I lived in Phx I used Apollo Animal Clinic....they are at Peoria and 51st Ave. Dr. Chuck Tobin....he's a sweetheart. He doesn't know alot about feline diabetes but he is very compassionate and I don't think he will require all of those tests, etc, especially if you have all the results with you. Also, Dr. Haskell Wright is also really kind. I believe he is an owner...he's been there for a very, very long time. It's kind of a drive from Baseline, though.

In Arizona, you can put lancets and syringes into heavy duty laundry detergent containers and mark them in big bold letters "SHARPS DO NOT RECYCLE" and then throw them in the trash.

I'd also strongly recommend that you get a script for lantus (and you will need one for lantus). The cheapest place I've found for the 5-pack of 3ml pens (and make sure the vet writes the prescription for the Lantus Solostar Pens), is Costco. If you call around, some places might sell you an individual pen so your layout is not as much at one time or, as someone else suggested, you can check Craigslist but I would be really careful about that. I think a couple members said that their Target and KMart would sell individual pens but the ones in Tucson will not.

There's a member in the Lantus Insulin Support Group who knows where on the internet to get Lantus Solostar coupons and I'll send her over to tell you. I no longer use lantus so I'm not sure where she gets them.

 

Hi & welcome! My name is Kat and Gobbles is my super-sweet sugar boy! He's a lantus user and I want to help you in any way I can. I get his Lantus for only $25! Here's how: Have your vet prescribe Frankie - Lantus Solostar Pens. These pens are sold in a 5 pack, which here in Ohio, costs about $225, however, some pharmacies will sell them one at a time. I called around and found a "mom & pop" pharmacy that sells singles. The cost of one single is $57, but there is a Lantus Solostar savings card that can be printed online and brought with you to the pharmacy: http://www.lantus.com/sign-up/default.aspx Click on "Sign Up & save up to $25....". My pharmacist honors the savings card and with the savings card, you pay only $25. A pen lasts me about 2 months; there are 300 units in it. The pens are hardier than the vials. If you get the pens, do not let the pharmacy talk you into buying the "needle tips"--you will not be able to use them and they are very costly. You will be inserting a syringe into the end of the pen (same way you draw insulin out of a vial).

Are you located in the states? I have some supplies I'd be willing to send you, if there is anything you can use: a box of 28 gauge lancets & about 3/4 box of 5/16" short U100 syringes (no half increments). Let me know

Please, please try to get Lantus (not Humulin or Vetsalin!!!!) for Frankie.

 

Yes, if you want to test before her meal and then a few hours after she eats, you will get an idea how she utilizes the food.
The first 2 hours, you may see a spike from the food, but then if the pancreas is doing its job, you should see a drop in the numbers..... that's pretty much what's seen with a non diabetic healthy cat.

Big spikes can be lessened by dividing the main meal at shot time. ..... some people may give 1tbsp with a shot and then 1tbsp every hr for the next 4 hours.... stops a food spike and helps to keep numbers leveled. Using an auto feeder is a great way to space out the food as well.

 

So why do I get the pens, when the 10ml vial is $143.19 at costco for the generic Glargine? Also Thank you for the offer I will PM you my address in a minute. I am in Phoenix AZ. Question, though... you say "no half increments" isint half increments what I want?

 

One of the reasons you want the pens instead of the vial is because you get 5 pens to a package that you open one at a time, yes they are a little more pricey up front but with a pen which is only 3ml 0r 300 units you can use almost every drop in the pen before it starts to loose its punch, where as a vial is 10ml or 1000 units, most of the time the vial will begin to lose its punch after 2-3 months and will still be about half full by the time you need to throw it out because it is no longer effective. Most cats take very tiny doses of Lantus usually around .5u to 1u b.i.d. so you got a lot of shots to give before you use up an entire vial. With the pens even if something happens to one and it looses it effectiveness earlier than it should you are still throwing out far less insulin than you would with a vial.

Yes, you will eventually want syringes with .5u marks, I use the Walmart house brand syringes Relion 3/10cc,31 gauge, 5/16 " short needle for my girl and a box of 100 costs me a little over $12 all of the Relion 3/10 cc syringes have half unit marks even if the clerks behind the counter may tell you they don't carry them.

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang

 

She ate 1/2 can of Friskies Pate!! :RAHCAT

Her BG was 526, but I think she more recently ate the rest of the food. Going to bed soon, so I will test her again in the morning... I think I'm a kindred pro at the testing... shes a little squirmish, but I think she knows I'm trying to help... and of course she loves the snuggles and praise she gets after done.... wow.... please don't tell anyone I just said that :shock:

 

Here is her picture from after we just did the last test.



I am feeling 100% better than I did this morning and last night. Thank you for giving me and Frankie Hope!!

 

She is beautiful and oh what captivating eyes!!!

 

So glad she is eating again - it is a roller coaster ride, but well worth it

 

Please let her eat all that she wants..... until their BG is regulated, cats often have a HUGE appetite.
My two were sometimes eating 30oz and 24oz a day when they were very unregulated..... they dropped way down once their bodies were settling with the insulin, and got down to 10oz and 6oz a day later.

About the pens and vial.... another good reason for pens is this:
What if you drop the vial? You are out alot of cash there!
What if you drop or wreck a pen? Only 3ml lost compared to the 10ml of the vial!
On occasion, some have received a container of insulin that's a dud.... I would rather have a 3ml dud compared to a 10ml dud.


She really is a beauty; I bet with those eyes, she gets whatever she likes from you!
I am so glad she is home.

 

Hi and Welcome!

You've already gotten some great advice. What glucometer did you end up getting?

I also agree with the others that the cheapest way to treat diabetes is to get them diet-controlled without ever needing insulin in the first place by switching them to low carb (less than 10%, the lower the better), wet food only. One suggestion I offer is to mix the Friskies with some water first. This helps her get re-hydrated better than drinking from a bowl ever could since cats don't really have a thirst mechanism because they "eat" their water in the wild. That's another reason dry food is so bad for them besides the carbs: no matter how much water they unnaturally consume from a bowl, it's never enough to make up for it missing from their food and they end up chronically dehydrated.

 

MommaOfMuse answered your ? re: why do I get pens and she is exactly right. I didn't know someone had said "no half increments". I offered them, along with the lancets, because I did read your first post about being strapped for money. I didn't have time to read through your entire condo last night. Anyways, I started with the regular needles when Gobbles was on 1.0 U and even used them when he was on 1.5 U. However, when he was bumped up to 1.75 U., I had a hard time judging how much insulin to put in the needle, so I bought 1/2 U. needles. They are yours if you'd like them.

 

Dan, regarding the coupon, I have to add that but we've found most pharmacies do not honor lantus and lev coupons when the script is written for a cat and caregivers being able to redeem them has been very hit or miss... mostly miss (cats do not fit the eligibility requirements). I am lucking enough to have found a pharmacy that will break down a pack and redeem the coupon. I hope that if you take that route, you will have the same luck

 

Like I said in the PM, I'll take anything that is offered and I will be sure to pay it forward when I can. As for my financials.... I am by no means in dire straits, I can afford to buy the prescription (as it seems that it is used over several months) contrary to what the vet was saying (hundreds of dollars a month. The looming issue is that I currently have a 5 1/2 year and we have identical twins on the way (Late July) The expenses, both medical and baby need) are mounting....we are taking hand me downs clothes, toys, equipment left and right... At first after the grim portrait painted by the vet, it looked like a death sentence for Frankie because I could not justify spending thousands of dollars on a cat when I had 2 babies being born in a few months a very unfortunate Sophie's Choice Scenario with the obvious answer being the babies. Anyways, now that I am hear I am confident that this can be managed relatively inexpensively and I feel good about the decision rather that feeling like I'm putting down my long time friend because I can't afford to take care of her.

Anyway, I tested before the ate (she was a little rough this morning) and was not cooperating as well...this might be because I brought the food into the bathroom with me before the test But he BG was 285 before she ate... may be a smidge of stress in there. So I am not sure what that means, but I am assuming it will spike after she eats. I'll test her around 9 if she finished her breakfast.

 

Glad you are feeling better about treating Frankie...plus this will be a great learning experience for your 5 1/2 year old. Because you can use Frankie's diabetes as a great way to teach that animals are forever responsibility and that when one is sick you don't just throw them away.

I have to tell you I have 14 cats (2 of which are diabetic), a large 97lb drooler, and my husband and I manage them all on a single income. Not going to lie some weeks are tight, but they would be tight regardless since my husband who's the income is a commerical roofer and we are in the middle of winter so it is always tight this time of year, but honestly my diabetics cost me very little more than my regular non-diabetic cats. Post diagnoises neither have seen the vet anymore than any of my other animals. While keeping them all on an all canned diet is pricey it is offset by the fewer trips to the vets, less litter used, and just plain healthier and happier cats.

One way to keep the other one from a scarf and barf, is to mix water with the food, and spread it on a plate rather than in a bowl, it that doesn't slow her down enough, place a small bowl upside down on the plate so she has to work around it to eat. What I discovered with all of mine was in the beginning they all went nuts on the canned food, they thought they has hit the jackpot when mom and dad brought home a sugarcat and took away the cereal and finally gave them the good stuff. Within a day or two when they figured out that this was the new norm, they stopped scarfing it all down on site and went back to eating like normal cats again.

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang

 

I know it was asked again.. but I'm not sure who asked... the tester I got was the Relion Confirm. I only picked up 20 test strips, and will need to get more in a bit. What I am trying to figure out is what are the next steps?

Frankie has eaten all of he breakfast and I'll be testing her again in a few. Should I get her some more food and mix it with water after I test? Also how much food water ratio? I've been giving her a half a can.

 

In a pinch, if you don't have syringes with half unit markings, and need them, you can make a reference gauge

(I'm so glad that geometry stuck with my brain!)

 

Dan

I know Frankie is underweight and she needs to eat, but it is not true that an unregulated diabetic cat should be allowed to eat as much as they would like. please take a few seconds to read this post on Feed Kiity as Much as They Want?.

It's best to determine what her ideal weight is and then feed the number of calories per day to get her there. A good formula for maintenance is 20 calories/lb per day so I'd use higher than that for her. Weigh her, feed her 25-30 calories per pound per day, weigh her again in a week....is she gaining? Keep checking her weight and adjusting the calories per day as needed.

Also...you have to be very careful at leaving her at high numbers for very long. Even if she has been a dry food kitty and may make progress once the dry is completely taken away, alot of these kitties still need insulin for a short amount of time. They might not need much or need it long but diabetes wreaks havoc on the body and if her BG doesnt come down to normal very very soon with wet food, you are risking that she could become insulin resistant.

If she can be a diet controlled diabetic, you would probably see her BG come down significantly fairly fast if she is fed only a low carb canned or raw diet. I don't think you should wait long to make a decision on whether to give her insulin. Sometimes even just a few shots works ....we recently had a kitty fed dry food in the Lantus IG forum and I think he got perhaps six shots and his BG came down and he went into remission...of course, he had been switched to wet food.

 

A number in the 200s is not a bad thing Gobbles was 410 this a.m. and he is slowly coming down.

I didn't get your PM; can you try to send it again? Do you want the lancets and the syringes? or just the lancets?

Have a great day!

 

Sounds like the next step is to call around various vet offices and find one that believes in home blood glucose curves etc and is willing to let you test and figure out dosing at home. That way you can switch your kitties records over to the new vet, get your prescription, have a demo of how to inject and a reliable well trained vet who's on board and familiar with your cat and your situation should there be any troubles. My vet
was one of those who let me do the curves at home, didn't believe in hospitalization unless they were very ill from side effects of diabetes (ketoacidosis etc). I brought in my BG values every once in a while and received dose advice both from the vet and from the members here on the board. Take it slowly. Each vet visit was only a general exam fee, unless I had Molly's fructosamine level measured (which I did after her diet change just to see if it had solved the issue....no luck, had to go to insulin).
If Frankie is completely off the dry food and there's no external sources she might be getting into (sneaking into dog food, neighborhood cat food or treats....be careful, many of the sliced meats and rotisserie chickens etc have dextrose added which is of course going to cause her BG to spike), you're ready to begin. 1st step is to find a vet who is willing to consult for just a general exam fee and likes to use the insulin you've chosen. Sounds like you're leaning towards lantus and that's great! (They always want to see a new patient at least once just to get an idea of general health)....no testing needed, your previous vet already did that, just ask to have the records transferred before your appointment. Bring in the BG values you've taken so far as well for reference. They might want to do something called a fructosamine blood test which gives an average BG value for the past 2 weeks to prove to themselves that diabetes is really what's going on. This test is about 80-90.00. If you have your BG values with you, you can convince them this test is not necessary as it's obvious Frankie's much higher than she should be. If they're aware that you've got budget restrictions, they'd be crazy not to cooperate with you.
The sooner you start treating, the sooner she's going to start healing and feeling much better, but take it slowly. Mistakes with insulin can be fatal or very costly, so it's better to err on the side of caution, learn to measure the syringe and inject properly and how to handle and store the insulin properly, and an in person demo from a supportive vet.
Have you read about ketones and ketoacidosis yet? If not, educating yourself about this side effect of untreated diabetes is important. Once Frankie's on insulin and regulated you won't have to worry much about that at all, but at the moment, it is a risk.

 

She just tested at 417 (about 2 hours after eating breakfast) Pre meal she was 285. I gave her another half can of friskies pate and put some water in it and mixed it up. She took right to it. I will have to contact some of the decremented local vets to see about getting the prescription, but I need to get the papers from my other vet 1st. I do need to focus on getting some work done today, so I will need to get stuff done that did not get done yesterday and try to get caught up. All of this is futile if I wreck my reputation as a top producer and reliability is a key focus. So I will check in here on an off today, but I need to shift focus to getting some work done right now.

 

You are truly doing an awesome job! Take some time for yourself and have a great day with your work

 

PM Re Sent

 

I have read about it, I have not gotten the test for it yet and at this time I have just been monitoring her BG before and after meals... trying to get a feel for what is going on and get her acclimated to testing regularly. So far I have been successful, but She is defiantly not happy about getting poked. I am trying to make it as simple and painless as possible, however, I am finding the need to poke several times to get a sample and that is not helping her stress level, or mine. I have been petting her and rubbing her hear before we test to try to warm up the blood in the ear. I am testing opposite ears per test, I am also putting the tissue behind the ear (she does not like) and poking at the far edge of the ear lobe. Sometimes I'll get a good sample poke, but she will bolt and it gets all over and I have to re poke her. I know she and I will get it eventually and it will be normal routine, but it is tough ATM and I really have to shift focus on getting some work done. I will probably let her out of the bathroom after I've confirmed she has eaten the food I gave her earlier and not test or feed her again until this evening at normal feeding time.

 

I test Gobbles back paw pads more than his ears. It doesn't phase him; he doesn't even flinch. Most importantly, if you do test the paw pads, be sure to put triple antibiotic w/pain relief on after testing. I also tried it on my civvies--they didn't flinch either. I just sit on the floor or the couch, put him on my lap facing away, grabbed his foot, poke, grab the glucometer & strip, strip blood, apply pressure, apply ointment. I've never had a problem with infections or callouses...if anything, its a good respite from ears once in a while...

 

See if you can start associating the 'stress' time with treats? are there any low carb treats around, or even bits of boiled chicken you can give her each time you give her a poke? The sooner she associates getting a poke with getting a treat, the better for you both. She may even start asking you to give her a blood test with time!

Mine would not tolerate me holding anything on the inside of his ear. It's not really suprising as their are a lot of sensitive hairs in there. Don't tell anyone else, but I gave up with cotton pads & toilet roll wads & now just poke it against the callouses on my finger. Not pretty, but it does the job, and my kitty gets an ear rub at the same time. I also hold him like a set of bagpipes, with his back end tucked under my arm, so he gets a cuddle too.

It might be worth sticking to just the one ear. As you keep breaking the skin & bursting the tiny capillaries, the tissue will 'revascularise' & more blood vessels will grow in their place. As more vessels grow, then the ear 'learns' to bleed & it will get easier to get a decent sized bead of blood that you can test.

You're doing really well. Keep going!

cat_pet_icon

 

Is white Albacore Tuna good for treats?

 

As long as it is in water it is fine, but read the label to make sure it is just tuna and water without anything else like broth which may or may not contain spices or sugar.

For my girl I just boil chicken breast in plain water and chop them into bite sizes pieces, but then again I have 14 cats so if one gets treats they all want them and chicken is far cheaper to hand out to everyone that shows up at test time than commerical treats...lol

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang

 

Just for now.... I have Abacore Tuna in the packets, not can... Ingredients list is White Tuna, Water Vegetable Broth and Pyrophosphate

 

Hi Hon, although I've been watching, I haven't chimed in, being a 7 week newbee myself. @-)

I just wanted to add, that my Lucian was very difficult to test and using the 'kitty burrito' method was the only way I could do it. I sit him in my lap, he doesn't want to lay down, and wrap a towel around him, from the neck down, snug it up and criss crossed in the back. This puts him in a cocoon, kind of like swaddling a newborn. He's not going anywhere and I can get the test done. It took about a month of using the towel before I could test him without it. Even now, I still use it if I have to warm his ear, due to the time it takes. If no warming is required, I don't need the towel, since I have the test down to a matter of seconds. Some cats are calmer when they can't do anything about it, some fight even worse, but it's worth a try, whatever it takes to keep track of their BG's is a good thing. Plus, it keeps you from getting shredded! :lol: I thought I would need stitches before it was over! :lol:

You are doing a fantastic job! :thumbup

Only other thing I would add is about food......someone, I can't remember who, explain to me just HOW cats get food in their mouths. When a cat eats dry, it flicks the piece into the mouth with it's tongue. Very difficult to flick wet, soft food, so they actually have to learn to eat it. Mixing with water helps and they need all the water they can get. I make 'cat food soup' a couple times a day and during other feedings, I take 1/4 - 1/2 a can and cut it in little cubes the size of dry food pieces with a thin sharp knife and they are able to flick it a little better. :lol: I still have a civvie that's not too keen on the wet food, but she's getting used to it.

Hang in there, the multitude of information can be overwhelming, but you'll get it and Frankie will be healthier and happier for your efforts. cat_pet_icon

As per the tuna, the veggie broth might be a problem.

 

I'll hold off on the tuna and get some chicken breast thawing. Both of my cats are used to eating wet food, but not as their only food. She did not eat much of the food I mixed with water. I don't know if this is going to work for her... she is drinking water though and she is peeing.

 

Don't get frustrated, it WILL work, it just takes time. She is having so many new things thrown at her, she's pretty overwhelmed too. Relax and breathe, it's not gonna happen in a day. As Mel has told me numerous times in the last 7 weeks..."Its a marathon, not a sprint". Thank you Mel, for your patience!

You're doing great! :thumbup

 

One of the other problems that I am having is my Wife's Take on this whole thing.... she seemed very stoic when we decided to put her down, but now that I have decided to take this on, she is very upset because she thinks it is going to cost too much and that it will be impossible to manage when our babies come. She is not as compassionate about animals as I am, so her logic is flawed and being 4.5 months preggers with twins is not helping on the hormonal side.... This is a battle I am dealing with right now as well... she has seemed to come off it, and I don't want to upset her, but there is no way I am putting down a cat that I feel is perfectly happy, and just needs help.

 

There is no logic with pregnant women. Good luck with that one.

You sure have a double whammy going on. :lol: Ya gotta laugh, it takes too much energy to cry and you need that energy to 'deal' with wifey and kitty.

 

A lot of us use freeze dried chicken - my cats were all on dry food until Honey's dx and I think this treat appeals to them because of that.
I just shake the bag and they all come running!

You can also try FancyFeast Appertizers for around $1.25 at Walmart - sometimes cheaper.
I would give Honey a little at each poke - so it would last about 5/6 times. I've also crushed pills in it if needed.
Mine loved the really smelly Tuna ones.

The testing gets easier as their ears start to bleed better. I could never get a good result on the outside part of the ear so I test on the inside rim - less hairs so the blood doesn't spread. I still use vaseline to make the blood bead up.

 

Yeah, I think I'm gonna put the Chicken Breasts away... thats a lot of food to waste. I'll pick up some treats later when I go to pick up Jacob from school.

 

While this may not be the right time since your wife is preggers but ask her this...if one or both of the twins were born diabetic...would she want to treat them or if it was an option with a human put them down? And the thing with cats is so many of them go off insulin and are just controlled by diet alone, I have one guy that has been insulin free for over 2 years.

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang

 

If you can find the PureBites freeze dried treats, you have a selection of flavors, I think they come in chicken, turkey, fish, shrimp and liver.

I tried them all, the only one Lucian will eat is the liver and it's like kitty crack to him! :lol:

Petsmart carries them, if you have one nearby. You can also get larger bags, designed for dogs, which makes it much cheaper, you just break the pieces. Petsmart also carries another brand called Simply Nourish that is 100% freeze dried meats, in various flavors. The 5oz bag is $9 and lasts Lucian about 3 weeks and he gets them often. It is in the dog treat section. The Purebites cat treats are .88 oz I believe and are 2.99 at Petsmart. Plus, you can get bigger bags of Purebites at Amazon (use the link up top) for dogs, much cheaper than the stores and break them. Treats are really important, kitty will come to associate testing with a yummy treat and not be so apt to fight you.

A dear friend once told me years ago "When you have an edge, USE IT" and that rings true here also.

 

You are Brave... but I tried that approach with using myself as the example, not the babies... didnt go well... I think we got it under control now

 

LOL I can afford to be brave...I'm all the way in Nebraska...<giggle>

And I still remember how out of control my emotions where when I was pregnant about 28 years ago...and actually caring for a diabetic cat is far easier and less expensive than children..my two were 11 months apart in age which is as close to having twins as I ever want to get. haha_smiley So I think your wife is the Brave one...

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang

 

That is a great formula and way easier to remember than that whole 13.6(X)+70 thing. Thanks, Marje! Something that helped me make sure my kitty was getting enough calories is "round big" his approximate daily caloric need. For example if he needed 250 calories/day, it was very rare that he actually would eat ~250 calories each day; it turned out that some days, he'd eat only 200 calories, other days, he might eat 300 calories. So, what I did was make sure he was averaging between 200 to 300 calories every day. Of course, ECID (Every Cat Is Different), so Frankie might be consistent in her eating and you won't have to worry about this or maybe just need a smaller window (like a range from 250 to 300 calories a day).

Guilty of this, too. I look at it that if I poke through the ear and hit my finger, then I'm doing it too hard. :lol: Michelangelo is super-sensitive already and even the neosporin bothered his ears to the point that I had to switch to vetericyn instead. Until I ditched the tissue on the inside of the ear, it was a constant battle for the two of us where I knew I was pissing him off and he knew I was trying to help but wasn't too happy about it.

Dr. Schrodinger is also correct that the ears learn to bleed better and some ears even bleed better than others. With Mikey's right ear, I can get a sample every time with one (rarely 2) pokes. His left ear, on the other hand, requires 3 pokes minimum before I might see a drop of blood (and even then, it's usually too small so I have to "milk" it). Not sure if someone has already shared this with you, but here are some additional ear testing tips that cover most of the difficulties that come with testing.

Treatwise, I generally look for any freeze-dried meats that contain pure protein and no other ingredients (eg "Premium Chicken Pieces"). Half the time, I end up buying the dog treats instead because you get a bigger bag for a cheaper price (although you do have to break up the treats into smaller pieces, usually).

Sometimes, the only way to solve that problem is to let the evidence speak for itself in a couple of weeks when Frankie turns back into the kitten she once was. Heck, you'll even see a change for the better in Mollie just from changing their food.

 

Testing gets easier. I was amazed you just went ahead and tested and actually came up with a reading the first time.....you're doing great! After you get into a routine and Frankie knows what's happening and what to expect and that a reward (treat) is coming immediately after, she'll start to relax and sit through the annoying part to get to the good part (and you'll relax too) which makes it all much easier! Also the little vessels begin to dilate a little and give sample more readily. It's a gradual thing. The same thing occurs with giving the insulin, the first few days are nerve wracking (mostly for you) and then it gets easier and easier and easier......
You're in the hardest part of the whole thing right now.
For the testing, you may find that a cotton ball works better for opposing pressure when using the lancet than putting tissue in her ear....it doesn't make strange sounds and is just the right size.

 

Dan, cosmetic pads, round ones, worked beautifully. I hold it under the ear and then just roll part of it over the top of the ear after sticking. Does patience also come with maintaining reef aquariums because patience is definitely needed Congrats on getting the first test done too.

 

One of the long forgotten, but yes ;-)

 

Got some freeze dried chicken breast bites from Petco... I will try them when I test before dinner. Hope those work.... I will be sure to rattle the bag and get her trained on the fact that its treat time :mrgreen:

 

2 of my cats loved the freeze dried treats straight off.
The other civie has recently started coming around to them but he's in love with them now, too!

 

Tested at 314 and she is eating wet. The treats didn't distract her much, but she does like them, so over time, I'm sure it will work out.

 

Yes, that's definitely Michelangelo. He likes the treats well enough, but sometimes he just can't be bothered. My other cat Henry, however, is insanely @-) addicted to treats. All I have to do is open anything ziplocked and he comes running from the farthest reaches of the house because he's thinking he's going to get a treat. And because Mikey isn't fast enough (or doesn't care to eat it fast enough), the second Henry's finished eating his own treat, he immediately goes after Michelangelo's (and succeeds in getting it about 90% of the time). I end up handing out waaay too many treats because of that little punk. :roll:

 

Frankie tested at 314 before dinner and just tested her at 349... I don't know exactly how much she ate because I fed them together today... I had her on the counter for a bit so I know she ate some and I have seen her go back to the food a few times. I used a towel this time to get the test and it was sooo much easier... she did squirm, but I got her in 1 poke and it was so much less stress on both of us. Thanks Again!!

I see this happening once Mollie catches on.... I already see a bit of the jealousy factor from her because the extra attention Frankie is getting...On the bright side, regardless of getting treat happy, I think Mollie will lose weight and probably stop puking up dry food all over the place... binge an purging and all :lol:

 

I'm heading to bed. Frankie is doing well...already feels like she is gaining weight and is up and about the house. I am picking up some surplus Lantus and supplies in the morning. I thought I would share some pictures from when they were babies as thanks for all the help so far :smile:

 

They were (are) so cute!
So you hand-reared them? That really must have been hard work but a real bond too!