From Hypo To Serial Poker, Figuring Bear Out

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (The Main Forum)' started by EllieAviles, May 18, 2017.

  1. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Hello. My name is Ellie and I have a 7 year old diabetic male cat named Bear. He's one of the loves of my life and was diagnosed with diabetes about 9 months to a year ago.

    When he was firat diagnosed the vet said he was being resistant to the insulin, so it was gradually increased to where we are today. He is currently on Novalin N and takes 8 units twice a day at 10 am and 10 pm. We started him off on the diabetic dry food from the vet but have recently (about a month ago) switched him to soft food (Fancy Feast Classic). He has been eating half a can twice a day and doing fine. All has been okay until about an hour ago.

    My stepdad came in to wake my husband and me up around 3:30 am. Bear was sleeping on the pillow beside him and seemed to be scratching at him. He said he was drooling and jerking. I rushed in and found him stretched out and biting the blanket. He wouldn't let go, but I gently pulled it from him. He wasn't stiff so I cradled him and brought him back to our room. His eyes were wide and he was looking back and forth with full head turns (not shaking his eyes). He let out a couple startled cries but calmed down as I pet him. When I laid him on our bed he stumbled forward and couldn't seem to get his feet to work. I continued petting him and gently laid him down. My first thought was a seizure or drop in his blood sugar.

    While my husband looked online, I got him 1/4 cup of basic hard food (I'm not sure of the brand because it's the stuff my mom gets for her two cats to go with their wet food. I think it may be Meow Mix.). He nearly inhaled it. I placed some water in front of him and he dipped his head quickly, but was startled by water instead of food. His pupils retract slightly in the light and his ears are very waxy (which I noted yesterday).

    Once he calmed down I pulled him to my chest and he has been laying against me ever since. We don't have a monitor for him (we can't afford it and have used all our medical resources trying to regulate him), but my husband has his monitor. If we check his blood sugat, what levels am I looking for on a human monitor. What could be the cause of all this? He's my heart and soul, my little love. Please help us.

    **UPDATE** 6:00 am
    We tested him on the ear with with my husband's One Touch Ultra 2 and it read 53. He was still lethargic and not very responsive to calls (which he normally is). We tried feeding him his normal half a can of Fancy Feast, but he was not interested. Instead, my husband brought him a bowl of the hard cat food he had earlier. He devoured it instantly. We'll try testing again in 30 mintes. Our vet opens at 7:30 am.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
  2. JohnZ

    JohnZ Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2015
    You want him above 65... please test him right away! It's great that you got him to eat the hard food. Do you have any high carb wet food you can give him? Please read the below... which I copied and pasted from the Stickly from the Health Links forum ( http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-to-treat-hypos-they-can-kill-print-this-out.15887/ )...


    This document was written for those using a meter calibrated for humans when measuring their kitty's blood glucose. However, users of the AlphaTrak brand blood glucose meter using AlphaTrak brand test strips in their meter please note:

    2008 Abbott AlphaTrak User Manual Page 4

    • Hypoglycemia/Hypoglycaemia (low blood sugar) levels are: Below 65 mg/dL (3.6 mmol/L) for adult cats and dogs.

    ****************************************


    GENERAL RULE OF THUMB FOR TREATING HYPOGLYCEMIA

    This document may be printed or email Melissa at jur@eee.org for the newest file to keep on your computer.

    Your best defense against hypoglycemia is home blood glucose testing. If you’re not already doing so and your cat allows it, I HIGHLY recommend you test before each shot.

    Hypoglycemia or low blood sugar is a dangerous condition that must be treated immediately. Also known as insulin shock or insulin reaction, hypoglycemia occurs when there is too much insulin in the body potentially leading to neurological damage and/or death.

    Knowing how to respond to a hypoglycemic event whether or not symptoms are present can save the life of your diabetic cat. The following general guidelines are intended for those who home test the blood glucose levels in their cats. These guidelines are not intended to replace the advice given by your Veterinarian. It is very important that you discuss any and all treatment options with your cat’s physician BEFORE an event has occurred.

    SYMPTOMS
    Some cats may have NO symptoms whatsoever, but here are the most common ones:

    MILD HYPOGLYCEMIA
    Sudden ravenous hunger
    Shivering
    Weak or lethargic

    MODERATE HYPOGLYCEMIA
    Disorientation
    Trouble with vision... bumps into furniture
    Poor coordination, such as staggering, walking in circles or acting drunk
    Changes in head or neck movements
    Restlessness
    Urgent meowing
    Behavioral changes, such as aggressiveness

    SEVERE HYPOGLYCEMIA
    Convulsions or seizures
    Unconsciousness


    TREATMENT

    During treatment for hypoglycemia, try to test every 15 - 20 minutes until you see the bgs begin to rise. Then continue to test until you are satisfied that the cat is out of danger.

    VERY LOW NUMBERS – WITHOUT SYMPTOMS
    Retest glucose using a large blood sample to make certain you have enough blood, and if you still get a very low number (under 40 mg/dL or 1.9 – 2.2 mmol/L) administer a teaspoon of corn syrup, liquid glucose, pancake syrup or honey, or INSTA-GLUCOSE and follow with food until the blood glucose numbers rise to acceptable levels. The syrup can be mixed with wet food or poured over dry if the cat will eat the mixture. If using liquid glucose, dilute with water for a thinner consistency.

    LOW NUMBERS – WITHOUT SYMPTOMS
    Retest glucose using a large blood sample to make certain you have enough blood, and if you still get a low number (40 – 60mg/dL or 2.2 – 3.3mmol/L) give food or treats until the blood glucose numbers rise to an acceptable level. If the cat refuses to eat even his/her favorite foods, you can syringe feed or administer a small amount of syrup.

    LOW NUMBERS – MILD SYMPTOMS
    Try feeding first or give a little syrup or honey followed by food until the blood glucose numbers rise to an acceptable level and the symptoms disappear. The syrup can be mixed with wet food or poured over dry if the cat will eat the mixture. If the cat will not eat, syringe feed. If your cat will eat dry food. the high carbs will help to increase his/her bgs quickly, but remember the effects of dry food usually takes longer to clear kitty's system once the crisis has passed. Feeding a high carb canned food is preferable to feeding a high carb dry food because the effects will clear kitty's system faster. You can then follow with his/her favorite canned food. Keep in mind that giving syrup (Karo, etc.) or honey is not enough because the effects wear off quickly. You need to follow with food.
    IF IN ANY DOUBT, TELEPHONE YOUR VETERINARIAN.

    LOW NUMBERS – MODERATE SYMPTOMS
    Give a tablespoon of syrup, a teaspoon of liquid glucose, a tablespoon of honey or a tablespoon of sugar syrup followed by food and continue doing so until you see the blood glucose numbers rise to an acceptable level and all symptoms disappear. The syrup, honey, or glucose can be rubbed against the inside of the cat’s cheeks or on the gums for quick absorption. You can also mix the syrup with wet food or pour over dry if the cat will eat it. Continue to give syrup and food as needed and observe your cat for signs of recurring hypoglycemia. Keep in mind that giving syrup (Karo, etc.) or honey is not enough because the effects wear off quickly. You need to follow with food.
    IF IN ANY DOUBT, TELEPHONE YOUR VETERINARIAN.

    LOW NUMBERS – SEVERE SYMPTOMS
    Rub syrup, honey, or glucose on the gums and cheeks if your cat will allow it. Another option for administering syrup, diluted liquid glucose, honey or sugar syrup to a cat who is seizing is to fill a needleless syringe with the mixture and insert via the rectum.
    NEVER TRY TO SQUIRT SYRUP, HONEY, OR GLUCOSE TO A CAT WHO IS SEIZING AS THE CAT COULD CHOKE ON IT! RUSH TO EMERGENCY.

    AGAIN! ANYTIME YOU CAT IS SEIZING OR LIMP, RUB KARO, GLUCOSE OR HONEY ONLY ON GUMS OR ADMINISTER RECTALLY AND GET TO EMERGENCY OR YOUR NEAREST CLINIC IMMEDIATELY!!!

    Remember that syrup or any other sugared syrup/preparation will spike the blood glucose ONLY for a short period of time, so food is really important with mild and moderate symptoms. Dry food (high carbohydrates) will keep the blood glucose numbers elevated longer.

    After a hypoglycemic episode cats may be more sensitive to insulin, so a reduction in dosage is generally required, especially considering too much insulin – whether due to dosage, inadequate food intake, or the cat’s changing insulin requirements – caused the hypoglycemic event in the first place. With moderate to severe episodes, your Vet may have you skip the next injection altogether.
    IT IS VERY IMPORTANT THAT YOU DISCUSS YOUR CAT’S HYPOGLYCEMIC EVENT WITH YOUR VET, SO TOGETHER YOU CAN DECIDE UPON THE NEXT COURSE OF ACTION.

    Always keep in mind that with low blood glucose and no symptoms, the BG you get is not as important as where it is headed. In other words, if you get a BG of 100 mg/dL or 5.6 mmol/L or less and there are still several hours or more before the insulin peaks, your need to watch your cat (and the numbers) carefully and take appropriate steps. With very low numbers and NO SYMPTOMS, a cat can be fine one moment and seizing the next.

    BE PREPARED! KNOW THE SYMPTOMS AND KNOW THE TREATMENT!


    Copyright © 1998-2010
     
  3. babyBoo

    babyBoo Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2016
    Get some syrup high in sugar such as pancake syrup or mix warm water with sugar to make a syrup, dip your finger into the syrup then rub on the cats gums. The cat probably needs sugar fast. If your test on the human meter is less than 50 and given the symptoms he probably should get to a vet.
     
  4. Dyana

    Dyana Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    That sounds like a pretty high dose of insulin, and a small amount of food and calories. I think Fancy Feast is about 90 calories per can and most cats need somewhere around 200 calories a day.
    I feed my cats 1 can each in the morning and 1 can each in the evening and thought that was low. He might have had a hypo. I would decrease the insulin and increase the food. I hope he is okay.
     
  5. JohnZ

    JohnZ Member

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    Apr 22, 2015
    How is Bear doing? Were you able to test him?
     
  6. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

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    May 18, 2017
    Thank you all so much. I have updated the post because I didn't notice the replies.

    We tested him on the ear with with my husband's One Touch Ultra 2 and it read 53. He was still lethargic and not very responsive to calls (which he normally is). We tried feeding him his normal half a can of Fancy Feast, but he was not interested. Instead, my husband brought him a bowl of the hard cat food he had earlier. He devoured it instantly. We'll try testing again in 30 mintes.

    Our vet opens at 7:30 am.SSadly, we don't have the money for a vet visit. I lost my job recently due to cut backs and my husband's work has cut down on his hours.

    He's back to laying on my chest and sleeping. When should we test, what numbers am I looking for?
     
  7. babyBoo

    babyBoo Member

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    May 15, 2016
    Keep giving him something high in sugar, such as wet food mixed with pancake syrup or honey, fancy feast gravy lovers works good as the gravy is high sugar,
    Keep testing every 30 minutes , you want to see his numbers higher than 50.
     
  8. babyBoo

    babyBoo Member

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    May 15, 2016
    You want to keep monitoring until he stays above 50 for two hours without food. But keep feeding him high sugar every half hour until you see something more in the 80 or up range.
     
  9. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

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    May 18, 2017
    He stopped eating the hard food on his own (he may be full). Should I give him syrup? If so, how much and which type is best? (I have raw honey and maple syrup. I'm not sure if I have Karo syrup, but I might.) So, if his levels are under 80, continue to give him food/syrup? I'm sorry, I'm just slightly confused and don't want to do something wrong. We'll test him in 6 more minutes.
     
  10. Dyana

    Dyana Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    I believe Novalin N's duration is about 8 hours in cats, and that 6:00am test was about 8 hours after you gave his shot at 10:00pm. We would call that the end of the cycle and when the effect of the insulin was close to it's lowest point. I would definitely lower his dose. I'm so glad your stepdad woke up and woke you up. He helped to save Bear's life.
     
  11. babyBoo

    babyBoo Member

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    May 15, 2016
    yes, if he won't eat food with syrup, put some on finger and rub it on his gums. You want to make sure he stays above 50. so if test is over 80, skip the food but keep testing every 30 minutes until at least 2 hours go by above 50. if less than 80 i would give high sugar after each test.
    he might be ok without the vet if you can keep him above 50. this could take all day monitoring him.
     
  12. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

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    May 18, 2017
    As am I. I'm extremely luck he wasn't on his favorite heating pad alone.

    I'll be calling his vet as soon as they open to talk about his dosage. I also need to find a way to get more test strips and I've been worried about what I've read about the Novalin N insulin on here.
     
  13. babyBoo

    babyBoo Member

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    May 15, 2016
    given the circumstances, its ok to have high sugar levels today.
     
  14. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

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    May 18, 2017
    I'm okay with spending all day monitoring him. And thank you, we're about to test him now.
     
  15. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

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    May 18, 2017
    Alright. We just tested again (with my husband's last strip) and it read 94. Thats good, right? So, I don't give him any food and test again in 30 minutes? I'm not sure how to get more strips.
     
  16. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

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    May 18, 2017
    Also, is okay to test on the same ear?
     
  17. JohnZ

    JohnZ Member

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    Apr 22, 2015
    That's very good!!! Same ear is fine! Good job.
     
  18. JohnZ

    JohnZ Member

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    Apr 22, 2015
    Yes... test again in 30 minutes...
     
  19. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

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    May 18, 2017
    Thank you. Going from 53 to 94 in 30 minutes isn't bad?
     
  20. JohnZ

    JohnZ Member

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    Apr 22, 2015
    Not bad at all... it's a good thing... you don't want him that low...
     
  21. Dyana

    Dyana Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    If you can get some money, I think you can buy the Relion meter and the test strips that go with it from Walmart for less than a bottle of test strips for the OneTouch. I used to use the OneTouch and the strips were about $50 for 50. The Relion Prime meter is $9 and a bottle of 50 Relion Prime test stips is $9 Just a suggestion. I don't know if it's the best meter, but it will do for now.
     
  22. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

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    May 18, 2017
    I was actually just looking that up. I was trying to figure out which meter was good and afordable. This whole experience has shocked me and I plan on following his little butt around and testing him on a regular basis, at least for now.
     
    JanetNJ and Sharon14 like this.
  23. Dyana

    Dyana Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    You can go through test stips amazingly quickly. If you can afford it, I would buy 100 strips, and be sure to always buy more before you run out. It's the middle of the night and no test strips or a hypo situation and no test strips that you want to avoid. If your Walmart is open 24 hours and close by, that is even better.
     
  24. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

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    May 18, 2017
    We do have one and I'm planning on running up very soon to get a new meter and strips. I know this isn't the thread for it, but does anyone have a reasonable meter preference? Personal experience or a brand to avoid, etc? I want to continue testing him, but have to get one first.

    Also, should I feed him at his normal 10 am? I plan on calling the vet, but am weary of what they may say.
     
  25. JohnZ

    JohnZ Member

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    Apr 22, 2015
    Not sure... but I think I read something about the ReliOn Prime meter not being too accurate... could be wrong here... I know a lot of folks here (including myself) use the ReliOn Confirm... a great meter... and only a few dollars more...
     
  26. JohnZ

    JohnZ Member

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    Apr 22, 2015
    Also... the ReliOn Confirm requires a smaller blood drop... a good thing :)
     
  27. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    Aug 16, 2015
    I use the Prime and have compared it to my micro (same as Confirm) and found it to be accurate. The only difference is the Prime uses a bit more blood, but the price of the strips is much lower.
     
    Cherish Gallagher likes this.
  28. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

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    May 18, 2017
    I had seen that one while browsing as well. There a positive reviews, but some have claimed it as inaccurate as well. Have you had good experience with it?
     
  29. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

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    May 18, 2017
    The Relion Prime? The strips are nearly half the price, but I got a few errors on my husband's because I couldn't get enough blood and that worries me. But you say you have no problem with accuracy?
     
  30. JohnZ

    JohnZ Member

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    Apr 22, 2015
    No problems with the ReliOn Confirm at all... very accurate and consistent... been using it for a couple of years now... only had to change the battery once... :)
     
  31. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    Aug 16, 2015
    All human meters will read lower than pet meters. As far as accuracy, I've only used the Micro and the Prime and when I compared results they were similar and consistent. Many here use one or the other of those two meters. My cats ear bleeds easily so I haven't had a problem with getting enough blood, but if you have that problem the cheaper strips may not be worth it if you have to use twice as many.
     
  32. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

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    May 18, 2017
    Okay. Update on Bears numbers. With our last strip, at 7:45 am, 4 hours after initial crash and 1.5 hours after first testing of 54, he is at 126. He hasn't eaten in an hour. Thoughts? Is this good?
     
  33. JohnZ

    JohnZ Member

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    Apr 22, 2015
    Sounds ready good to me... if you had more strips... it would be good to get another test in... but since you don't I think he's safe...? What does everyone else think?
     
  34. Dyana

    Dyana Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    If you can find some 28 gauge lancets they are bigger in width and help to get a bigger blood droplet.
    While you're at Walmart, pick up a few cans of some high carb wet food (with gravy) and store it with your hypo kit.
     
  35. Dyana

    Dyana Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    I think, if it's going to be a while before you test next, I would offer him a snack of his regular low carb food now, and try to feed small meals frequently throughout the day.
     
  36. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

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    May 18, 2017
    I plan on going up, hopefully, within the hour. I was waiting to call his vet once they get in.

    He hasn't moved from my chest/stomach since I initially laid down with him. He laid there through his food and his testing. Is it normal for cats to sleep heavily when they've gone through something similar? I'm also concerned about his wobbly state from earlier because he hasn't moved since then for me to determine how steady he is. I also don't want to push him and stress him out.
     
  37. JohnZ

    JohnZ Member

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    Apr 22, 2015
    The one time it happened Derek... he did sleep very heavily for quite a few hours afterwards... but was fine and back to his happy self as soon as he woke up. :)
     
  38. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

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    May 18, 2017
    Thank you for the reassurance. Everyone has been amazing. I'm torn between moving him and calling the vet then going to Walmart or allowing him to sleep peacefully. I know I need to do the former, but a part of me is terrified to let him out of my site and away from me.
     
  39. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

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    Jan 11, 2017
    Glad you had some help for your Bear and to hear his number is 126 after not eating for an hour. That high dose and then doing diet change on that higher dose is most likely the culprit. Might be worth switching to the ReliOn Confirm / Micro for your DH (dear hubby) and Bear :). A hypo event is very tough on kitty's body so not surprised that he is sound asleep. Just a quick note, ideally you want to give wet food like Dyana suggested when this happens because dry food takes longer to effect BG levels since it has to metabolize so to speak. Here's a Hypo Tool Kit list, I understand funds are tight but get what you can :cat:.

    Also, edit your thread title to remove the 911. You can always change it back if you have another emergency :bighug:
     
    Cherish Gallagher likes this.
  40. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

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    May 18, 2017
    Thank you. I'll be sure to read that list ASAP and pick things up here and there. I'm also worried that he may be needing a full can of food twice a day (as one suggested earlier in the night). And I've changed the title. Sorry about that.
     
  41. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

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    May 18, 2017
    Just called his vet. The doctor hasn't made it in yet and the one there is in surgery. I left a message and asked to be called back by 10 am to see what I should do about his shot. What is the general rule of thumb? I thought I read that if he is under 200 before eating to not give him his shot? Is that right?
     
  42. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

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    Jan 11, 2017
    No worries, you had a scare this morning :bighug:. You could also divide the meals up through the day like a lot of us do. Correct, general rule of thumb is NO SHOT under 200 until you collect lots of data! ;)
     
  43. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

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    May 18, 2017
    Thank you again. His Dr. Haddix (his BFF) had the nurse call me back and said no shot this morning and keep whatever food he will eat down for him to munch on throughout the day until she calls me back personally. I will be picking up a new monitor and strips today so I can test him throughout the day. Is every hour good? Two hours?
     
    JanetNJ likes this.
  44. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

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    Jan 11, 2017
    If you are going to stick around the forum for a bit, let's at least get your Signature set up with some basic info instructed here: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/editing-your-signature-profile-and-preferences.130340/

    If you are able to start home testing, minimum of twice a day AMPS and PMPS (morning and evening pre-shot tests) here is our Spreadsheet template. Just need Google account and if you need help setting it up, just ask: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/

    Here is the link for the Hypo info JohnZ pasted above: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-to-treat-hypos-they-can-kill-print-this-out.15887/

    Novolin N is a faster acting insulin, so dividing his meals can help reduce the big drops such insulins are known for. Usually hitting nadir (peak insulin / lowest BG) between +4 and +6. Obviously, every cat is different as I believe Bear went low around +8 so the insulin should be starting to wear off in the next 2 hours from then. :cat:

    Let him rest a little since he won't be getting insulin today and I think every 3 hours will be fine. If you see his numbers going up, do not give insulin off schedule, just wait until PM shot time :)
     
  45. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 17, 2016
    With no shot this AM his BG will rise fairly high I think. No need to worry about that. It might make more sense to do a testing curve after his next AM dose to see how that dose affects him. Testing every 2 hours between AM and PM shots should be enough for that.
     
  46. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

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    May 18, 2017
    That does make sense. Thank you. I'm probably still in overactive superprotective mode. :)
     
  47. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

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    May 18, 2017
    I absolutely plan on sticking around. I've actually followed the forum for a while when I needed education or to compare brands (that kind of stuff), but I'm here for good. I'll be sure to set up everything and look into the spreadsheet.

    Once I can get the monitor, I probably will test him regularly for a bit to get a basic look at his numbers so I know where he stands and I promise I won't freak over high numbers today.

    Now, the + numbers. That stands for the amount of hours after insulin was given, right? Is there a thread that explains basic terminology?
     
    AlphaCat and Kris & Teasel like this.
  48. JohnZ

    JohnZ Member

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    Apr 22, 2015
    You might want to also discuss with vet the possibility of switching to a more gentle, longer lasting insulin, such as Lantus.
     
  49. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

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    May 18, 2017
    I did mention that to the girl when I left my original message. I'll be sure to ask Dr. Haddix when she calls back or at his next full check up.
     
  50. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

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    May 18, 2017
    Also, if you don't mind me asking, how much does a prescription of Lantus run you? Are there discount cards available?
     
  51. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

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    Jan 11, 2017
  52. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

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    Jan 11, 2017
    Lantus in the states is expensive (I've heard $300) so most buy it from Canada https://rxcanada4less.com/ where you can get 5 pens for $150 + S&H. You use syringes to draw from each pen vial (mini vial).
     
  53. JohnZ

    JohnZ Member

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    Apr 22, 2015
    With the Lantus... depending on the dosage... 1 pen could last many months... I usually get about 3 months out of one pen... so it could work out to be only $10 to $15 a month (or something like that)... something to consider :)
     
  54. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

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    May 18, 2017
    Interesting. $150 is still high for us, but it is much better than the $300+ here in the states. My husband used Lantus pens for a while and even with his insurance it was still over $100. Well have to see, because I would prefer to him be on something calmer.
     
  55. Shoeskitty

    Shoeskitty Well-Known Member

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    Feb 18, 2016
    You can also check out the Supply Forum here on FMDB. I can personally vouch for buying Lantus from Alan. Have bought from him twice and most reliable! Others on the board have bought from Alan and there are other sellers also that members have purchased from. Good luck! My cat started out on Novolin N and was doing okay on it for 4 months, then suddenly hypoed and almost died! I strongly urge you to find a way to get off of Novolin N or reduce the dose!

    Link: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/supply-closet-for-sale-or-free.15/
     
  56. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

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    May 18, 2017
    How many units does your cat get a day? If you don't mind me asking, so I can estimate.
     
  57. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    Aug 16, 2015
    Fancy Feast is a good low carb food, but to save some money, you could switch to Friskies Pates which are much cheaper. Just stay away from the indoor ones(green lid) and any with gravy.

    I've bought from Alan in the Supply Closet Forum too, and he is very reliable.
     
  58. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

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    May 18, 2017
    Wow. I'm sorry to hear that. Bear started off on an insulin that was supposed to be good for remission, but he didn't take to it. Then came Humilin N, which was increased and increased, then Novalin N (the "off brand") and a final increase to 8. He was good for about a month and then last night/this morning happened. And thank you for the link. I'll be sure to check it out.
     
  59. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

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    May 18, 2017
    Yeah. Bear has two brothers (Ninja and Tails) and they all have to eat together and the same thing or its like I gave someone th better toy and they each want what the others have, so it's expensive to feed them now, let alone going from a total of e cans a day to 9 of the Fancy Feast.
     
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  60. JohnZ

    JohnZ Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2015
    You could just get 1 pen (although it's more cost efficient to get the 5) from CVS for about $80
    It varies... but he averages 1 unit twice a day... I always draw up a little extra... and then measure the amount...
     
  61. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Interesting. Thank you for sharing. I'm definitely going to talk to the doctor about it.
     
  62. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Another quick question since your signature says you switched from Humulin to Lantus. Did his dosage stay the same and was it difficult to switch?
     
  63. JohnZ

    JohnZ Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2015
    No... not difficult at all to switch...

    Switched over 2 years ago.

    He was on 6 units of Humulin... and went hypo 1 night... we immediately switched him to 1 unit of Lantus (a big difference)!...

    Since then his dosage has varied somewhat... from just 1/2 unit to 1 1/2 units...
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
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  64. Squalliesmom

    Squalliesmom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2015
    Someone has posted in the Supply Closet that they have Lantus vials for sale, I believe they are less than $100, and at least one member has made a successful purchase from him.
     
  65. babyBoo

    babyBoo Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2016
    Just got home from work and checked in to see how you made out with Bear as he seemed to be in a lot of trouble early this morning. Seems he made out OK. Congratulations, your quick attention may have just saved Bear's life this morning.

    As for feeding Bear at a low cost, you need a food he will eat. As an example, most of the brands that are lower cost than the 5.5 oz cans of Friskies pate don't seem to agree with my cats, they get diarhea. So the Friskies 5.5 oz cans are the lowest feeding cost I can get, however grocery store or WalMart brand pate may be a lower cost for you if it agrees with him. I generally feed 3 of those cans to my 2 cats per day. One cat is 12 lb the other 19 lbs. So the lightest is getting less than 1 1/2 of those cans per day, and Boo the heavier cat is getting a bit more than 1 1/2 cans.

    When I started dosing insulin I figured 100 test strips would last me many months if I just did a curve once every week or two. Now I more willingly buy 100 strips every two weeks just knowing that its keeping him safe.
     
  66. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Just as a small update, Bear is doing fine so far. We skipped his morning shot yesterday. At 4:17 PM yesterday he tested at 572. When Dr. Haddix called she didn't want him to stay so high all day so she had me give him 4 units of his Novolin N (which is half of what he was taking) and offer him a full can of food. He wasn't interested in the food, but I gave the shot anyways. It gradually decreased throughout the rest of the evening. His AMPS was 414. I was told if it was over 250 to feed him again and give another 4 units. He ate a whole can of Fancy Feast Classic. I've been checking him every two hours. At +2 he was 365, at +4 he was 198, at +6 he was 105, and at +8 he was 96. He's up and moving around and his little nose is wet, which (with him) is my first sign of him feeling either good or yucky. He even played with his brother late this morning. I'm sure you guys understand that when you see your sick baby up and playing it's one of the greatest moments ever.

    My only worry is that he's at 96 and he still has 4 hours until his next shot. I do plan on doing another test in 2 hours at 3:00 PM (+10) and, of course, again one before his shot at 5:00 PM. The good news is his vet is open until 6:00 PM, so if I'm unsure of myself, I sure as heck am going to call Dr. Haddix and see how she wants me to proceed. What would you guys normally do if he is under 200 before shot? Wait an hour and test again? Feed him? Don't feed him? I'm going to ask his vet either way, I just wanted some other opinions (especially in case I ever find myself in a similar situation when his vet is closed). I also understand that he may go up before his shot, but I just want to be prepared.
     
  67. Shoeskitty

    Shoeskitty Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Good to hear that Bear has recovered from his episode! No dosing advice from me however. Thanks for letting us know how Bear is doing!
     
  68. JohnZ

    JohnZ Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2015
    My thoughts here... seems that the dosage of 4 units may still be to high... since it took him from 414 AMPS to 96 (+8)... which is late in the cycle for Humulin.
    You might want to further reduce the dose... maybe to 2 units.
    Due to limited history/data... it's probably best to not shoot if he's under 200.
    I would also skip the shot if he doesn't eat.
     
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  69. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    I agree with this.
     
  70. Shoeskitty

    Shoeskitty Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Good advice here!!!
     
  71. Nan & Amber

    Nan & Amber Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2016
    I also can't help on dosing (esp. for Novalin N), but as a general guideline, if the pre-shot number is below 200 but not wildly so, you can stall a bit to see if it comes up. Don't feed (you don't want food influencing the BG), test again in 20-30 minutes. Other than that, I agree with the previous posters-- a reduced dose is probably indicated given the 96 today, and skip altogether if he doesn't eat a meal before a shot. Safety first!
     
  72. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    I'll be sure to ask his vet about decreasing it some more. Thank you for the advice. I'm keeping a close eye on him until I test for his +10 at 3:00 PM. I have to leave the house to drop my husband off at work then, so I'm worried about leaving him if it has dropped even more. I'm never sure if I'm being hyper-protective or not.

    That makes sense. I'm making notes and trying to put together a small hypo kit for emergencies. Thank you and I agree. Safety first! :)

    That's another question I had. In the hypo kit thread, it was suggested to keep high carb wet cat food for emergencies and the Fancy Feast Grilled with Gravy Flavors was suggested. Bear won't eat any soft food unless it's pate for some reason. Is there a high carb wet food that comes in pate?
     
  73. Nan & Amber

    Nan & Amber Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2016
    Will he eat the gravy alone? That's where all the carbs are, so we often just use the gravy part for a high-carb boost.
     
  74. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    I'm actually not sure because I've never tried. Do they make just gravy packets (like as a food enhancer?) or will I need to but a can of food with gravy in it?
     
  75. Nan & Amber

    Nan & Amber Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2016
    Hmm, there might be such a thing out there, but usually we just use the gravy-containing foods and squeeze out the gravy we need. Somewhat wasteful, I guess, but hopefully you won't be needing to do it too often!
     
  76. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    You can try adding a little honey to pate wet food. That works well with my guy. The gravy foods seem to upset his tummy.
     
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  77. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    That would be an interesting idea. I'm going to make a note of that in case he won't eat the gravy food if he hypos again.
    Never. I will never be unprepared again.
     
  78. JohnZ

    JohnZ Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2015
    Did you get a chance to do that +10 test?
     
  79. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    Great job testing today. It's clear that 8 was way too much.
     
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  80. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    Whenever you aren't sure of a dose you are better off going a little lower to be safe. Feel free to post the pmps here and we can advise on dosing. I'd probably go with 2-3 units myself for a few days and see what happens. If you hold it at 2 units for two or three more days we can see if it needs to be raised.the raising of the dose should be done in small 0.25-0.5 increments.
     
  81. babyBoo

    babyBoo Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2016
    I am not a vetsulin user so I am not too sure of the differences between it and lantus but from reading a bit in the past about others using it, I think I remember it being very necessary for the cat to eat about one hour before the shot, which is a big difference from lantus which is usually done just prior to the shot.
    This is from the sticky in the vetsulin forum:

    ----- http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/humulin-n-primer.303/

    1. FOOD. Always make sure kitty eats about an hour before his/her shot. This will insure that kitty has food on her stomach to counteract the typical fast drop of the bg's caused by N (some cats do not drop fast on it, which is, again, why hometesting is so important!).

    Feeding an hour ahead also leaves you relatively sure the cat is going to keep the food down. Warning: We are dealing with cats here, which means nothing is guaranteed. Bunny vomited at peak, while we were asleep, and that is how we had our first hypo in over 5 years of treating diabetes.

    NOTE: Bunny free fed and seemed to know when he needed to eat, so we did not have to worry about his eating before hand. However, kitties getting timed feedings should be fed as stated.
    -----
     
  82. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Okay. Just got home from dropping the husband off and took a PMPS at 4:45 PM, his shot is due at 5:00 PM with his food and it was 121. I'm on hold with the vet, Dr. Haddix, now to see what she wants to do. What is your guys' opinions?
     
  83. JohnZ

    JohnZ Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2015
    Skip the shot...
     
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  84. Shoeskitty

    Shoeskitty Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2016
    I agree.
     
  85. JohnZ

    JohnZ Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2015
    Better safe than sorry :)
     
  86. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    I was told to give him his shot with his food. I normally make sure he's eating and just give him a quick poke when he's halfway (it also helps because he's distracted).
     
  87. Nan & Amber

    Nan & Amber Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2016
    What dose did the vet recommend? [I'm in the "skip" camp, by the way, but just to know]
     
  88. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Just got off of the phone with Dr. Haddix.

    She doesn't understand why he didn't peak higher at the end of his curve, but his numbers were so high yesterday. I did remind her that yesterday he had an off brand hard food that was very high carb and bad for him to help bring up his levels during his hypo and she had me leave a bowl down for him to munch on as needed. We also skipped a shot and he went nearly 17 hours without insulin.

    Once I gave him his shot, he did have a curve, but it was in the high numbers. This morning he ate a full bowl of Fancy Feast Classics (his normal food and much better for him) with his 4 units. His numbers dropped pretty quickly from the beginning, but seem to be staying in the same range instead of spiking more at the end. I've updated his spreadsheet.

    She wants me to wait two hours, check him at 7:00 PM and if he is at or close to 250 give him 3 units instead of the 4. I'm now getting dirty looks from Bear because he heard his medicine and food alarm go off on my phone and I haven't made a move to put down the goods for him. :p
     
  89. JohnZ

    JohnZ Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2015
    Can you shift your testing/shooting schedule by those 2 hours going forward?... If not you should probably just skip the shot and start anew tomorrow morning.
     
  90. Nan & Amber

    Nan & Amber Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2016
    If it's going to be two hours, I think you could give him his dinner-- we usually say that we want to keep the 2hr pre-shot window free of food influence, so that's about right. If I were you, I'd give him his meal now, and then re-assess (and probably skip). I definitely wouldn't give 3 units, though.

    The high numbers after the hypo are likely due to what we call a "bounce"-- basically, the cat's body reacts to the low by dumping as much stored glucose into the bloodstream as possible. It can last a few days, it's actually surprising that Bear got back down to green numbers so quickly.

    More thoughts in a bit...
     
  91. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Yes. It's actually preferred. We had him at 10 AM and 10 PM because that's when my husband always took his medicine, so I would dose both my guys at the same time. Lol. Because of the hypo incident and Dr. Haddix wanting him to have 4 units right then, it completely shifted his schedule to 5 AM and 5 PM. I managed to get up this morning with very little sleep (we've had another emergency where my mom's cat was attacked the night before Bear went hypo, so I had been operating on only 4 hours of sleep over the course of two days) and test him then feed him with his shot of 4 units. I then continued to test him every 2 hours because that's what they did when he went for his curves at the vet's office. I'll eventually, and very slowly, move him back to an easier time, but 7:00 is much easier for us than 5:00.
     
  92. JohnZ

    JohnZ Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2015
    I agree... I definitely wouldn't give 3 units...
     
  93. Squeaky and KT (GA)

    Squeaky and KT (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2011
    Ellie - I like how you're learning to take care of Bear's diabetes better. Did you know that you can decide how much insulin, when to reduce, when to raise, what to feed, etc all by yourself? Many of us make those decisions after learning what works when for each of our kitties. The experience here is WAY beyond amazing. You're already taken so many steps toward understanding - good job!

    Using your particular insulin, I'd skip this one too....

    HUGS!
     
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  94. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    I am leery about it because that night absolutely terrified me. I'm sure you guys understand with your own kitties that he's my lil' love.

    So I should give him his (and his brothers') dinner now and then check again in 2 hours?

    I was surprised at his numbers as well, but I'm not nearly as experienced as you all are. It doesn't matter that I'm using a human monitor (ReliOn Prime), does it?
     
  95. JohnZ

    JohnZ Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2015
    I wouldn't feed him now... if you think you may still do the shot in 2 hours... still think it's it's best to just skip the shot...
     
  96. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Thank you, that means a lot.

    I'm worried I'll make the wrong call, but I'm much more comfortable with taking samples and reading the spreadsheet.

    I've also known his moods like the back of my hand, that's how we found out he was diabetic. I told my husband something was off, it wasn't right, but he wasn't acting strange or "sick", so he pushed it off. A week later he passed out in the water bowl and my husband called me at work. I left early and we rushed him to the vet. Diagnosed as diabetic. We may have fought, but he doesn't second guess me any longer when it comes to Bear.
     
  97. JohnZ

    JohnZ Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2015
    Here's a suggestion... why don't you just wait until 10 PM... that would get you back on your preferred schedule... and give his numbers a chance to rise...?
     
  98. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Okay. That makes sense, but I do have a question.

    This is hypothetical, so I know what I may do. If I don't feed him now and test in two hours and he is still below 250, should I go ahead and feed him, don't give him the shot, then continue to test him every two hours to keep track of his curve and see where his numbers go? That's what I feel I should do, but I'm second guessing myself.
     
  99. EllieAviles

    EllieAviles Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    But should I wait to feed him until 10 PM, too? Would feeding him mess with the numbers I'm getting because of the food?
     
  100. Nan & Amber

    Nan & Amber Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2016
    I'm going to have to disagree with this-- I say go ahead and feed, two hours is enough time to let the immediate food influence fade, and waiting that long without feeding all day can cause numbers to drop even further, so you'd be skipping anyway. I say, let him have his meal and his meds!

    If you don't feed and end up skipping, I think you can give him a break on testing for the night. It's good information to have, but not critical-- he's not going hypo if he doesn't have insulin on board.

    Based on your story and the numbers you've gotten in the past couple days, I am going to make a guess that Bear is one of those cats who is very food-sensitive, and that the recent changeover to Fancy Feast has had a dramatic effect on his insulin needs (not uncommon at all). It took a while for him to hypo symptomatically because of the "bouncing" kind of reactions I described above-- for a while, anyway, his body could compensate by dumping glucose into the bloodstream and get his numbers back into a safer area. Until the other day when he slipped below the line (which, yeah, I'd be terrified of it happening again, too! Thank goodness you were able to get to him in time).

    I really think skipping tonight and re-starting the whole process tomorrow "fresh" is the best move...
     
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