Getting Wilbur inline and on track with Vetsulin

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (The Main Forum)' started by johnt, Feb 21, 2018.

  1. johnt

    johnt Member

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    At the request of @Kris & Teasel I'm starting a new thread:

    Looks like the 3u worked well. AMPS is 245.

    I assume stick with 3?

    Also, to make it fit better on the cells, I removed the extra text on the +2.5 times and added a note to the cell. cleaner. that OK?
     
  2. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Yes, try 3 u. It can go up if today's data shows it's necessary. Yes, you can add notes to cells as you did.

    Is he eating canned food right now? What type? I know you're whittling away at the Temptations.

    Thanks for the new thread. :)
     
  3. johnt

    johnt Member

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    Dosed 3
    I withheld the temptations almost completely yesterday. I also fed him more tuna to compensate, making sure he ate the simple servings. I also reintroduced the Dr Elsey's Salmon hard food and he actually ate it! This will now replace the temptations completely, while still giving me an option for treats during dosing. I would switch him for food, but it seems awful expensive. However, if we can get him to level at 3 it will save enough from the Insulin cost alone to make it viable.

    I will admit though, i did give him just a tiny bit of temptations again this morning. I put tuna out for him, he gobbled it up, then some of the whitefish and tuna simple servings (wet) and he kept crying. So i gave him 6. That satisfied him. I don't plan on giving him more today
     
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  4. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    That's a nice mid cycle number! :)
     
  5. johnt

    johnt Member

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    it sure is. Since it's looking consistent I'm going to give him a break. he's getting a little unhappy when i start, so i might get one more, but most likely i'll wait for the PMPS.

    that work?
     
  6. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    That'll be fine.
     
  7. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Nice AMPS! Stick to 3 u for now.
     
  8. johnt

    johnt Member

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    Sounds good!
     
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  9. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I saw your note about Wilbur getting into the kibble - and he blessed you with a pink number. :confused: High carb food can actually abort the insulin action for the remainder of the cycle. Maybe increase to 3.25 u tomorrow AM.
     
  10. johnt

    johnt Member

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    OK. i'm TRYING to get him off the temptations completely too, but he will sit and cry for 30 minutes and he is extremely loud. i'm a wimp and he knows it :)

    I'll get him.

    I'll increase, but i assume if he stays at those low to mid 100s i should got back to 3 when i can keep him off the kibble and temptations.

    I'm ordering the Dr Elsey's food tomorrow. That will replace the temptations immediately. when he turned and liked it he gobbles them up now.

    Wish I could use it for all grazing food. But i need to see about the other cats. If I can get him and him ONLY to eat it, I can get him off the Hills Prescription Diet and everything he'll have then is low carb. I bet I can drop to 3 or lower when I get him there
     
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  11. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    You can try another day at 3 u if you want. No rush - especially if you get good nadir numbers. The eventual goal is to see some high dark greens on his SS.
     
  12. johnt

    johnt Member

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    Also, 306 PMPS and administered 3 i'll go up in the morning
     
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  13. johnt

    johnt Member

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    Forgive me if You answered this already. what again is nadir?

    We've gone back and forth so many times you likely already answered so i'm sorry for asking again. i believe you're talking about the readings that are blue right now? at the lower point of the curve?
     
  14. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the lowest part of the curve, ususally around +4 to +6 for Vetsulin.
     
  15. johnt

    johnt Member

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    OK thanks. I have an early breakfast today (it's 5:10am here right now) and I'll be out. but i'll get his AMPS, then check him later. any thoughts on when I should check again? i'm going to 3.25 today.

    I had to give him a few temptations at dosing time, but have refused him this morning (not to his preference). I was figuring i'd get +4 and +6 today to get a better idea on his nadir with the dose change. that's considering my work schedule allows me breaks at those times, but i should be ok. as long as I don't get too embedded in a task (i lose track of time when that happens)
     
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  16. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Game plan: give 3.25 u tonight and both AM and PM tomorrow. If mid cycle is still yellow or high blue increase to 3.5 u on Sunday.
     
  17. johnt

    johnt Member

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    ok. he's starting to go back in and sneak the other cats food whenever i refuse him the temptations. until i get the new cat food i'm stuck. i either give him temptations or he's going to eat the other cat's food
     
  18. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Do what you can. ;)
     
  19. johnt

    johnt Member

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    I will. everyone here is sick right now so we are moving slow
     
  20. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Rest, fluids, Netflix ... ;)
     
  21. johnt

    johnt Member

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    no kidding. I'm just praying it's not the flu. I think I just have a sinus infection to that's a perfect itinerary :)
     
  22. johnt

    johnt Member

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    @Kris & Teasel I got a little lazy since I'm sick. i did the tests and dosing just didn't get it logged.

    I raised him to 3.5 this morning. I can't wait to get the new food and replace his treats and kibble needs. this should be really good!
     
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  23. johnt

    johnt Member

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    I'm starting to think he's going to need to sit around 4.5 to 4.75 based on his charts. 3.5 doesn't seem to be enough until I can get the new food here.
     
  24. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    That’s possible but I’d give it another day at 3.5 u before increasing. General rule: keep a dose 3 - 4 cycles before changing it.
     
  25. johnt

    johnt Member

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    ahh ok. great to know. hey honestly, at least I know he's controlled and not lethargic from way overdosing him.

    I feel so much better, and since I've been withdrawing the temptations, he lost a tiny bit of weight and was able to clean his back feet yesterday.

    I bought some rinseless shampoo (foam) in the meantime to try helping him out. poor ole guy

    EDIT: i noticed I forgot to put his +6 in, i jusdt did but it's pretty much inline with +4
     
  26. johnt

    johnt Member

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    @Kris & Teasel (or anyone that knows), I keep trying to look for food, but even on the site for the CleanProtein I don't see any direct info on carbs. How do you determine a hard foot (any food really) to be low/high in carbs?
     
  27. Chris & China

    Chris & China Well-Known Member

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    Although it's not terribly accurate, you can use a Cat Food Carb Calculator to get a general idea if the food you're considering is even in the ballpark
     
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  28. johnt

    johnt Member

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    wow thank you!
     
  29. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    One last dose of 3.5 u tonight then up to 3.75 u tomorrow AM.
     
  30. johnt

    johnt Member

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    Got it!
     
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  31. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Nice AMPS! It'll be interesting to see what the increased dose does today. :)
     
  32. johnt

    johnt Member

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    exactly. i have a job today to finish my wiring but i'll get some mid cycle readings
     
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  33. johnt

    johnt Member

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    I'm going to try a +4 and +6 today if I'm feeling better. i finished my work but boy am I not feeling well. I'll try.

    I can actually see that he's lost a tiny bit of weight. That makes me feel really good. Since he's able to at least try to clean his bits (he can't reach them yet but he's close) and he cleaned his feet it's a good sign.

    I've struggled keeping him from begging. Today to circumvent the crying, I went to bed late and woke up 15 minutes before his AMPS so i could be assured he didn't eat +2 from dosing.

    its harder at night, but i'm getting there. Since I can already see he's moving better it's encouraging.
     
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  34. johnt

    johnt Member

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    had to look 3 times at the meter for the +5. 102!
     
  35. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    That's fantastic! :D:D:D
     
  36. johnt

    johnt Member

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    except I'm feeling too ill right now to get out of bed, I'm going to sleep for a few hours. I'll test him when I get back up
     
  37. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    You could just wait until tonight's pre shot test. He'll be fine.
     
  38. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Good yellow PS today. Try for one between +4 and +6 if you feel up to it. Really good progress!
     
  39. johnt

    johnt Member

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    he's been crying a Lot but i've been witholding the temptations as much as possible. it's helping. I am sure he's going to start losing weight too.

    I'll get a +6. His +4 is 156
     
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  40. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Any luck with the Young Again Zero or Dr. Elsey's kibble?
     
  41. johnt

    johnt Member

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    i can't order it until tomorrow, but i will be getting a big bag then
     
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  42. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Up to 4 u tomorrow AM. The hard work testing and increased food policing is paying off. :smuggrin:
     
  43. johnt

    johnt Member

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    This is frustrating. my doctor called me today asking how Wilbur was doing (the vet). I gave him a link to the spreadsheet.

    He came back and told me I should be only giving him 2u twice per day because raising his insulin is causing his cortisol to go up, because his body is fighting against the higher level of insulin. and that's causing the higher numbers. he said that's also how Wilbur survived those 10u doses, because his body kept producing more cortisol to fight it

    It's like he doesn't understand that the food is influencing this.

    it's really disappointing working so hard to fix him to have the doctor tell you to go the other way
     
  44. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    We all at some point had to go against our vet's advice to get better treatment results. I know I did. It's your call of course but I truly don't understand what your vet means. Wilbur's SS is showing definite progress according to the BG evidence. You weren't testing or keeping a spreadsheet when he was on those crazy high doses and, yes, it was probably extreme rebound that saved his goose, along with lots of high carb food.

    I'd have to do some research to see where cortisol fits into the biochemistry behind the phenomenon we call bouncing. Bouncing is the result of a mobilization of glycogen in the liver which can be converted to glucose to prop up BG when it drops too low because of an insulin dose that's too high. Cortisol might be part of the pathway and that might be what your vet is talking about. For what it's worth, I see no evidence of bouncing on your SS right now. Rather, I see an insulin dose that's working quite well but needs to go up a little.
     
  45. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Here are some questions for you - and I don't mean to be rude or snarky: in all the time since Wilbur's diabetes diagnosis do you feel this vet or others you might have had have been on the ball with his treatment and have given you good direction wrt diet, dosing, etc. Were you given a clear explanation of why he had those seizures and why you got up to those 10 u doses? Were you given good advice on how to get his weight down safely?

    If you can answer yes to all those questions then you can follow his advice with confidence.
     
  46. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Yep! That's what he's referring to. Here's an article:
    https://dtc.ucsf.edu/types-of-diabe...y-processes-sugar/blood-sugar-other-hormones/

    So he's talking essentially about bouncing and his take on it is that you're overdosing Wilbur and driving his BG too high. The only BG numbers that support a lower dose are those at 1 u on Feb 20. That's where the dose was dropped because of a low PS. If you want to satisfy yourself on this issue you can drop Wilbur down to 2 u tomorrow AM and leave him there for 4 cycles or so to see what happens. Try to keep the food as low carb as you can. You might feel better after trying this. If it works, great! If it doesn't you can go up in dose again.

    BTW - I said I see no evidence of bouncing right now because his BG data if plotted on a graph would give the typical smile shaped curve of Vetsulin. Bouncing usually inflates PSs a lot and often pushes them into high flat numbers for the whole cycle. That's not happening.
     
  47. johnt

    johnt Member

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    I should have been more clear.

    1. I like this vet a million times more than the one I had previously. I feel like he does care. Shoot how often does a vet call a patient's owner a month after the visit just to check up? it wasn't a secretary etc, it was the same Doc that saw him. So i feel good that he cares.
    2. I think his advice is likely correct given the technical aspects..... but
    3. I don't think he has a full picture of what Wilbur is going through. he didn't ask about food, etc. I think he's basing his opinion as though all of those tests are based on the same diet each day.
    4. I am not going to follow his advice, and although i know you aren't a vet, I feel you and I have a much more sound grip on the whole picture and we will get better results this way.
    5. Some things irritate me. I have always followed my vet's advice. When i first arrived he requested a fructosamine, even though i asked for a glucose curve since I couldn't test him then. Just so happens a fructosamine costs me about $300 since it includes blood draw and lab work, whereas a glucose curve just means testing every hour etc and costs less than half.

    His numbers were good according to the doc, saying he came in around 300 which I have no clue what that means.

    this was Oct 2016. He never had a glucose curve done.

    Last month, when this fiasco started, I had been having growing concern since I couldn't test wilbur and I felt i was giving him too much. The day i was able to test him is when I was worried, and he was lethargic, stopped eating etc and it worried me about him becoming hypoglycemic (i think that's the right one), and at that time I had Karo Syrup in my hand incase something happened. it didn't, but that's when i was finally able to test him with low resistance and I started that crude spreadsheet before talking to you. You evaluated it, persevered through my panic and lack of understanding and got me on the right path.

    At this point i took Wilbur in that day before being able to check him. HIs blood sugar then was 375. The doc said he was not hypoglycemic. I did his recommended blood work again which included another fructosamine which came back at 290.

    He never did a curve, and now I have another $600 vet bill with zero answers. The answers i did get came from you. Although I didn't get answers, at least I am sur3e now his kidneys are working right, his pancreas and all organs came back good under that blood check

    So would I follow his advice or yours? i think common sense answers that without question. I think he has good intentions and obviously the knowledge, but i do not believe he has the whole picture or really understands in depth what's been happening.

    This is why i'm so appreciative of your help (and all of the others that have stepped in)
     
  48. johnt

    johnt Member

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    you don't need to convince me at all. I would have stayed with your advice either way. you'll see in my reply above,
     
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  49. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Well, you've thought this through really well and it seems you know what you want to do. I'm here to help. I certainly can't claim I know everything but I've learned quite a bit in my time here on FDMB and am always willing to research something or defer to someone with more knowledge or experience. The numbers speak for themselves! :)
     
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  50. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I'm still going to nag about not letting him get into high carb food, though ... ;)
     
  51. johnt

    johnt Member

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    I agree completely.

    tomorrow I am going to take him to 4u as advised and we'll jsut stay on the same path. I get what he's saying and will read the link you sent, but I think you and I have a firm handle on the whole picture and I think this is the better path. it would waste most of what we've accomplished over the last week to drop him back to 2 and start a whole new process.

    I know i don't always get him at the perfect +4 or +5 but i have to balance his stress too, and I think i've gotten him tested enough to give us the info we need.
     
  52. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Unless he takes a nose dive into lime green and you're trying to get him up with carbs (and need to track their effect) I don't think you need a ton of tests. Eventually, when you get to a dose that seems to be really good a full curve can be useful to fully evaluate his BG profile over a whole cycle. That involves AM/PMPSs as well as every two hour tests in the time between. Those would be rare though. I almost never do them myself.
     
  53. johnt

    johnt Member

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    oh i know. listen I fought him hard today, and I think those red numbers were a direct result of the bouncing, as well as the high carbs from the treats.

    Tomorrow I'm going to order a small bag instead of the big one. Just so I can verify that he'll let me replace it. Wait, no I can't do that. The shipping on the 2.2 lb bag means if costs nearly double the price of buying the lower bag. I'll get the big one. I wish they sold those little bags they sent as samples so I could verify it'll work instead of spending $50 on food to do it. if I weren't restricted in cash flow it woudln't matter.

    IF i can get him to transition I honestly believe we'll be able to balance in within a week's time of changing. Just have to get him there.

    On the horizon I have submitted several proposals for new work (I work from home) and we've been approved for a 7 figure govt contract. We aren't through, but making it this far is very positive.

    the only negative with that, is working for the us govt means you have to agree to accept it might take 120 days aftre invoicing to get paid. That'd make it tough, but once past that point I wouldn't have the stress level I do right now
     
  54. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    The down side of working for the government. One of my brothers works for the federal government here and has endless frustrations with bureaucratic red tape, etc. Good luck on getting the contract.

    Re low carb kibble: If it's the YA Zero, I've read here that some cats have adverse effects in the poop department. It's also very concentrated so you don't feed much. Not sure about the Dr. Elsey's.
     
  55. johnt

    johnt Member

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    i've thought about that too. But I don't know if I want to jump that hard on that side. I don't really buy into that 'they'll eat less' stuff. I think maybe, over a long period, it might decrease, but if just simply eating more healthy food would reduce your intake, why aren't people doing that in swarms to lose weight?

    To me it's a combination of diet, exercise and through management. Which I think we're doing. I don't think trying to make myself believe he's suddenly going to eat less is a viable prediction

    not to mention i think he's borderline constipated already. when he poops he can't sit down for a while. he 'eases' onto his bum. it's obvious it hurts. and his little tootsie rolls are huge and dry. I was almost worried enough to take action.

    On a sidenote, that hacking problem still exists. he'll hack for a few minutes, then be OK. when it happens I can tell it hurts because he swallows real gingerly after, and he jerks his head as though it hurts.

    then when he goes to drink water it's audible that he's not swallowing normal.

    My problem is i don't think I should introduce that in the middle of what we're doing. I think I need to get him balanced first. Or do you think I should address the hacking first?
     
  56. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I'd keep at the BG/eating thing as you go along. As for the hacking, I wonder if he has something like a nasal polyp or something. That might interfere with proper swallowing. Is the abnormal swallowing all the time or only after a hacking episode? Is he doing fine otherwise? Does he go for an annual checkup any time soon? Maybe think about having the vet assess it when you can spare the cash?
     
  57. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    My cat had been eating young again for the past two years in addition to fancy feast twice a day. They don't eat as much of it because it's high in calories and nutrient dense. At first until they get used to eating less they may get diarrhea. If that happens you can only make one serving at a time available rather than free feeding it, or do what I did and put it in a food puzzle so they eat more slowly and realize when they are full.
     
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  58. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Try 4 u this AM. Nice curve yesterday - classic Vetsulin.
     
  59. johnt

    johnt Member

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    Did still recovering so i'm a bit slow. but he had a good AMPS and things are looking good!
     
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  60. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I see that pink PMPS yesterday. If he didn't get into any kibble then it could be a bounce from a possible lower number after AM+3.
     
  61. johnt

    johnt Member

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    he had to have. I made a comment. I didn't see it but i just don't believe that high number without it. he did not get temptations though.

    I'm still waiting on being able to order the food, but should be today.

    he was back down to expected numbers this morning. I'll get a +5 today for good measure.
     
  62. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Nice AMPS. :) I think a +5 is a good one.
     
  63. johnt

    johnt Member

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    Sounds good!
     
  64. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Except for that pink last night the last 4 days' numbers are pretty darn good - PSs in the 200s, nadirs roughly 50% of those. I think if the nadir can slowly be nudged down to the 90-110 range and stay there quite consistently you'll be in great BG territory with Wilbur. A low carb diet (99.99% of the time! ;)) will bring on slow and safe weight loss - think a year or more. He's learning new habits even if he protests and he'll be a much healthier kitty. You can have that cough checked as soon as your finances permit. I ssume you haven't seen any of that weird seizure activity?
     
  65. johnt

    johnt Member

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    No seizures yet but I'm weary. this is very close to the dose i was giving him when he was having them last time. They are so violent and he's broken both canine's off having them when i couldn't get to him or he wasn't in a position where i could pick him up.

    When he has those he is messed up for at least a day. he'll run around the whole house sniffing and rubbing on everything, meowing (sounds more like caterwauling) for a day. Then the next several days i can see he fights going to sleep for some reason.

    I pray he doesn't have another.

    But I think he'll start losing some weight soon too. True he's not happy all the time but he'll get used to it. I can already see just a fractional bit of increased activity in him. He likely hasn't lost much at all, but either way I can see him changing.

    I'm happy with the numbers too. I can't wait to get the low carb stuff and keep him out of all the kibble. Not sure it will all happen that way, but i'm steering him the right way best i can

    I got the rinse free shampoo the other day. i doubt it really cleans anything but it sure does make his coat soft and fresh again, and boy it smells better :). I've only put it on his belly and back 1/4 of his back. don't want to do too much at once
     
  66. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    You were up at 5 u earlier in February and he wasn't having seizures then was he? I'm not sure that it was the 4+ u insulin dose that was the underlying reason for them but who knows? Fingers crossed they won't happen. Meanwhile you're doing a lot of things right for him and that has to be helpful to his overall health. For what it's worth, Teasel's brother lost about 2 lbs in a year when I switched him to Teasel's low carb wet diet.
     
  67. johnt

    johnt Member

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    I wish i could remember what dose he was on then, but the best I remember he was taking 4u in the morning and 2u at night. his seizures were almost always initially in early to mid evening.

    Several times if he had one at night, he'd have another, mild one, about 12 hours later.

    They told me he had epilepsy then and put him on phenobarbital, but 1.4 years ago when i moved here we weaned him off right away (well it took awhile because i slowly reduced his dose over a couple months to keep him from withdrawing).

    But during that time he was having them sporadically. i believe they were about every 3 to 5 weeks. they told me not to bother coming in when he had them. just to log it.

    then i took him in and his blood sugar was over 500. what they failed to consider was, when he has these seizures and comes around he eats like he's starving to death. well no wonder his BG was so high!

    Anyway, i'm probably worrying for nothing. time will tell. I wasn't able to test him then so i have no clue what his BG was then. it's entirely possible he was bouncing so it dropped really low? after what you said it sounds like they were shooting in the dark claiming they were from high BG levels.

    The strangest part is that when we went from 4/2u to 10/10u they stopped right then.

    oh well, i'm rambling. i'm watching him and just praying they don't come back!
     
  68. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Many cats eat like this when they have a hypo episode.
     
  69. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Two choices this AM: leave him at 4 u for a third day because it’s working quite well or increase to 4.25 u. The goal is to nudge the nadir down a little bit more. The pre shot numbers usually come down a little too.
     
  70. johnt

    johnt Member

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    Feb 14, 2016
    I don't mind raising it. b ut if so i need to get a +4 and +6 at least so i know i'm not putting him too low during nadir

    Do you agree?
     
  71. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I agree. As you get closer to his "magic dose range" you'll need a clearer picture of its action coming up to and moving through and past nadir. That's the determining BG range for a Vetsulin dose because of the insulin's ability to drop them quickly and low. From what I see on your SS, Wilbur doesn't overreact to Vetsulin - his responses are pretty much ideal.

    Looking ahead: if you can find a dose that gets his nadir in the 90-110 range with low-ish yellow pre shot numbers and if he can sustain that over time, that's good regulation. It's likely that the good dose will have to be tweaked a little up or down even then and you'll certainly have to stay on top of the food issue but you'll have reached the best end goal. The last few days' data are showing you it's possible. :)
     
  72. johnt

    johnt Member

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    OOOk. so I just took it. His AMPS is only 209 because I was able to keep him out of the kibble (it's the PM that it's hard). SHould I still give him 4.25 right now? that seems to low to dose doesn't it?

    Also I'm glad you mentioned the range we're looking for. i thought under 100 was bad. but now I see high 90's low 100's are ideal. so that's very good to know.
     
  73. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    No, don't raise the dose. I suggest you stay at 4 u but get a +2 as your first test. If he's dropped significantly (say, 50+ points) then you'll need to test a bit more. This is scary but you need this data. The 4 u seems to be working some magic right now and you don't want to lose momentum. I'm at home today so I can check in often.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
  74. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Ideal ranges showing good regulation on Vetsulin: pre shots in the low to mid 200s/ nadir in the high double digits to low 100s.
     
  75. johnt

    johnt Member

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    ok no problem. i'll do 4.0 and get a +2. i will need to step out today some time but I will adjust to make sure I can test.
     
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  76. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    And don't forget - if he drops into low green numbers (I really don't think he will but I don't have a crystal ball!) you have a supply of "kitty donuts" (AKA Temptations) to prop him up. ;)
     
  77. johnt

    johnt Member

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    I actually let him have some this morning just prior to posting. I didn't give him any last night and thought I should now since his AMPS was so low. but I think today might be the last day for them
     
  78. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Do what you can. :) At least now you have good evidence of their impact when you look at his SS. I'll watch for that +2. It'll be around noon my time.
     
  79. johnt

    johnt Member

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    Sounds good. I always test at the exact time, but sometimes I get a bit delayed recording them if I have a client call etc. but i'll get it on the sheet ASAP

    thanks Kris!
     
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  80. johnt

    johnt Member

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    blech. well they borked the whole process.

    That's it. i'm done with the temptations. whether i have the other food or not, he's done
    +2 = 267

    It's going to be rough, but that's it. I'm done. I stopped buying them but have a bad habit of stocking up on things. i've got two big bags left and i'm opening them and trashing.

    it's time.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
  81. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    All is not lost - it might actually be a post breakfast food spike with a bit of added oomph from Temptations. Try for a +4 or +5 to see if he's come down - good info.

    Keep some Temptations around. They work really well should he ever get into hypo numbers. Maybe donate the bulk to the SPCA or a rescue place?
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
  82. johnt

    johnt Member

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    i can do that. i'll keep one of the big bags.

    man, when I was feeding those to him regularly he got so spoiled he wouldn't eat them if they were left out too long because they'd get stale (that's the only thing I can think of).

    I have a humidor here and I'd have to put them in that to get the moisture back in them so he'd eat thema again.

    Now that's not an issue because it's so rare he gets them he just gobbles up whatever is in his bowl.

    I'll keep some on hand, but i'm done feeding them to him.

    I'll get a +4 and +6
     
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  83. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    As I said before, if nothing else you've seen the impact of those treats on his BG and know I wasn't just blowing hot air ...
     
  84. johnt

    johnt Member

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    I never thought that, but you're correct. I don't think i thought it would be as big of an impact but it certainly validated your statement. I hope I haven't sounded like I didn't believe parts. I trust what you say and have tried to follow all the advice.
     
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  85. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    See?! You didn't ruin his cycle. I like that 115! :D
     
  86. johnt

    johnt Member

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    no kidding. I actually took it with two meters thinking it might have been a missed result
     
  87. johnt

    johnt Member

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    I just checked him (it's actually +5.5 and it's 80. is that too low? should I give him a few temptations?
     
  88. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    It's a little lower than ideal for a Vetsulin nadir but still above 50, the take action number. Best advice would be a small snack of wet food and save the heavy duty carbs for really low numbers. So -try a couple of teaspoons of whatever wet you're feeding and retest in 30 minutes. No need to panic ...
     
  89. johnt

    johnt Member

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    ok. actually i just fed him a little tuna just before the test.

    I tested him because I caught him walking over to the bowl of kibble that is furthest away from me. So i figured i better test now in case he got into it.

    I'll retest in 30
     
  90. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Tuna is a good snack. I'll look for the next test.
     
  91. johnt

    johnt Member

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    69
     
  92. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    This +6 now, right? OK - another tuna snack. Retest in 30 minutes. I'm not suggesting Temptations just yet. You need this data to know his behaviour on a dose that might be a tiny bit too high. This cycle is revealing quite a bit about his response to Vetsulin at/near his good dose. Are you OK with that? The "take action now" number is 50 for a human meter and he's not there. Take action doesn't mean he's in a hypo - it means the BG is low enough that a little propping up is in order.

    Looking ahead: dose down to 3.75 u tonight.
     
  93. johnt

    johnt Member

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    yeah that's fine. honestly? the fact that he survived getting 10u tells me somehow he's able to fight that. I'm not worried at 69 but I'll give him some tuna.
     
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  94. johnt

    johnt Member

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    OK it's coming up now. it's at 89
     
  95. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Excellent! He’s told you that 4 u is a bit too much right now so drop the dose to 3.75 u tonight. It might have to go up again because this kind of wobbling around a good dose is common.
     
  96. johnt

    johnt Member

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    Sounds good. i'm going to sleep awhile. worn out.
     
  97. johnt

    johnt Member

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    ok back to normal. 265. so i gave him 3.75 correct?
     
  98. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Yes. We’ll see how he does on that for a while.
     
  99. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I can see after yesterday's lows that Wilbur gave you a perfectly decent PS last night and this AM. He isn't a bouncy cat and that will work in your favour. He also gives you pretty much ideal responses to Vetsulin even if numbers are sometimes a tiny bit too high or influenced by contraband. :)
     
  100. johnt

    johnt Member

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    good. that makes me feel better. So far I've been able to keep him off the temptations. I can tell when he wants it because he ignores his tuna bowl and sits in front of the temptations bowl.

    but what I've been doing is giving him tuna then. I may not even have to introduce other stuff if this works.

    This morning I woke up a couple hours before his AMPS. he begged and begged, but after about 20 minutes he gave up and laid down beside me. like he accepted it. so i'm going to keep working on that

    i'll get a +5 today in about an hour
     
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