Giving my cat Trooper 2 units and not sure if I should skip his next shot

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by catdaddy1, Jan 1, 2018.

  1. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

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    Hi, I'm pretty new to all of this and still haven't figured out how to read a chart, plus I'm terrible at math so a lot of these conversations are like they're in a foreign language to me. My vet gave me a prescription for Prozinc and told me to give 2 units 2 times a day every 12 hours. I've been doing that and have missed the dosing time and so skipped it a couple of times. In the last 5 days though, we have been on schedule. The thing is that today he seems more sluggish and a little more wobbly in the legs than he has. So what is better? To skip his night time shot tonight? Lower the amount of insulin? 2 units sounds like a lot compared to what others are giving their cats and also I'm not real sure my new vet really cares because the only instructions he gave was to give him insulin and he didn't even show me how or tell me where to get it. Or just skip the shot all together?
     
  2. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/
    AND:
    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/understanding-the-spreadsheet-grid.156606/
    The usual starting dose is 1 unit twice a day. Try for as regular a dosing schedule as you can manage so you don't have to skip shots.

    The only way to know if a dose is too high or too low is by testing blood glucose yourself. From what you've said your vet hasn't been very helpful. We can help with just about anything diabetes related.

    • When was your kitty diagnosed?
    • What do you feed him?
    • Does he have any other medications or health problems?
    • How old is he?
    Welcome! Lots of help and support here. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  3. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

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  4. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

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    I just wrote a long reply and I don't know if it went anywhere so here it goes.
    My cat Trooper was diagnosed about 3 weeks ago and at that time the vet said his blood glucose was 633. I finally got some blood out of his ear yesterday for my ReliOn Prime meter and it read 128?

    I have been feeding him fancy feast classic since he was diagnosed, I just inherited my mom's cat too so she is also on a fancy feast diet like it or not.

    Trooper's only other problems are ear mites which I'm giving him drops for and fleas which I need to get something to defeat them for a while.

    Trooper is 14 and mom's cat is 15 so basically I tell people I'm running a home for elderly cats lol.

    I did end up skipping his shot tonight because I remember reading that it's better to be safe than sorry and I can just start up again with his shot in the morning. However, that may have been the exact opposite of what I should do? I'm having a heck of a time getting blood out of his ear, not because of him but I guess due to operator error so obviously other than the fact that I don't yet know how to do a chart for him, I don't think one meter reading is going to cut it since I'm supposed to do it every 2 hours, I'm going to practice some tonight on a lemon.
     
  5. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    How long after the shot was that 128 you got? Is it time for the shot now? Can you try to do a test and see where he's at and then post the number? We can't really tell you what to shoot without knowing how high of low his blood glucose is.
     
  6. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    What size lancets are you using? There should be a number on the box - something usually something like 28, 30, 33...

    Also, try warming his ear up before you poke - especially at this time of the year their little ears get chilly and it's really hard to get blood from a cold ear. And if you aren't already, try adding a couple of tablespoons of water to his fancy feast. Diabetic cats tend to dehydrate easily and when they are dehydrated it's harder to get blood - adding water to the food helps with that.
     
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  7. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    If you've decided to skip, then you can ignore my post asking if you can do a test right now. But if you do one in the morning before you give the insulin it might help to decide how much to give.
     
  8. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Definitly cut that dose to 1 unit moving forward. Test this morning and if it's over 200 give 1 unit. Test, then feed, then shoot. Then try to get a few mid cycle readings.
     
  9. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

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    Ok, I will try to answer these questions, Trooper and I both fell asleep but we're up early because I have to start a new job today which isn't the best timing but it's part time so I will be able to keep up his shot schedule. As far as the 128 reading, I didn't write down when I gave him the shot and when I tested the blood, I copied the spreadsheet last night so if I can get this figured out then I can keep track of that.
    The lancets are a size 30
    I will try to get a blood sample from him in a few minutes and I will definitely lower his dose to 1 unit, his eyes looked a little dilated yesterday but his pupils are always huge so it's hard to say if they were really dilated or if I'm just freaking out more than I would normally. I won't be able to get any mid cycle readings today due to the starting of the job but Friday comes on Wednesday this week for me so I could try and start a chart Thursday morning. I had no idea what all was involved with cat diabetes, never heard of it until now.
    His history is basically this. He found me when I moved out to my brother's house in Kentucky about 14 years ago. I was only there a couple of months and things didn't work out, I was looking for work at the time, I was packing up stuff in my rental car to drive to another relative's house in Indiana when this guy, about as big as a tiny mouse came crawling out from under the porch, eyes closed, and started crying so I scooped him up, lucky for him because I don't know what happened to the rest of his family but I think they ended up in a cat barn whatever that is. Couldn't find work in Indiana so we jumped on a plane and flew back to California. These moves were the reason his name is Trooper, for putting up with all the moving. He still loves to climb into his cat carrier, I call it his house because that was his portable house when we were bouncing from place to place. He spent the rest of the time here in california but went from a house to an apartment to another apartment and yet to one more apartment, we are now down by the beach but I had to make him an indoor cat because of all the dogs around here. So a few weeks ago he started drinking a ton of water and peeing a lot and it was obviously not normal but money has been tight so we had to ride it out for a couple of weeks before I could do anything about it and so here we are, and I've inherited mom's 15 year old blind cat who I call Trooper's sister because they have lived together on and off throughout the years. The only issues he's ever had is fleas and hairballs until now and I would hate to be the reason for anything to go wrong now because he's like my kid and even though I know he's lived a pretty long life for a cat, I don't think he's lived a long enough life yet and I want to learn what I can to keep him comfortable with me as long as we can both handle it. Thank you all for your help, I've been winging it and trying to read up on everything but there is way more information out there to filter through than any human has time for. So any more questions I will be happy to answer but I might take a few hours to respond because of work. Have a good day everybody and Happy New Year!!
     
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  10. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Good luck at your new job today! Trooper sure is lucky he found you. :).
     
  11. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    You've come to the right place! We can help you to get organized around Trooper's treatment so keep posting here. This is a small forum so your posts will be seen. :)

    Those are very thin. Go to a human pharmacy and ask for 26 or 28 gauge lancets. Sometimes the box will say "for alternate site testing". Warming the ear before testing helps a lot. Many of us use what we call a "rice sock" - old, clean sock with about 1/2 cup dry uncooked rice in the toe, tied off, heated in the microwave until it's quite warm to the touch. Test it on yourself first - not too hot. The outer upper edge of the ear about 1/2 inch down from the tip is a good place to poke. Don't worry if you poke right through occasionally. The ears heal well.

    Here's the recommended testing schedule. Do what you can around your work schedule.
    1. test every day AM and PM before feeding and injecting (no food at least 2 hours before) to see if the planned dose is safe
    2. test at least once near mid cycle or at bedtime daily to see how low the BG goes
    3. do extra tests on days off to fill in the response picture
    4. if indicated by consistently high numbers on your SS, increase the dose by no more than 0.25 u at a time so you don't accidentally go right past a good dose
    5. post here for advice whenever you're confused or unsure of what to do.
    One thing we really need to see to help you as well as we can is a spreadsheet like the type you see here:
    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/
    If you set one up ASAP and post any/all blood glucose data you have we can get you moving forward right away.

    I see that he's eating Fancy Feast classics - perfect! No dry food at all?
     
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  12. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

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    Ok, I managed to get a test done before he ate and before his insulin shot and it reads 129 on a ReliOn prime meter. So what does this mean?
     
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  13. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Whew! Good thing you tested him! No shot last night, right? This morning's BG is too low for insulin because you don't have enough data yet to assess how he might respond to a tiny dose. I suggest you test once or twice today if you can and certainly again this evening at what would be pre shot time (no food at least 2 hours before). Those results will help you to know what to do but post here for advice.

    Your kitty certainly doesn't need a 2 unit dose. However, he might need a small dose but we need data to judge that. :)

    BTW - the ReliOn Prime meter needs a larger blood drop to register correctly. Did you get a good drop with this test?
     
  14. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

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    Oh and I lowered the dose to 1 unit, I hope that was the correct thing to do?
     
  15. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

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    Yes, it took a few little stabs but I finally got a decent drop, he is no fan of the ear poking because of the ear mite problem his ears are sensitive, who knows where he gets all these fleas and mites, he doesn't go outside. I gave him a 1 unit dose because if I didn't give him any at all then I would have skipped two in a row and I don't know if that's good or bad. I got your message to late to see that you said he was too low for insulin, I feel like I'm going to kill him by accident because I'm so clueless. I called in to work, probably not the best idea but like I stated earlier, Trooper is my kid and I won't even be able to do my job while my head is at home and they were ok with it because of the holidays, so I will be able to test him again in about an hour and a half which will be two hours from his last test, he's gonna hate me today but it's gotta happen.
     
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  16. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Please do your best to test his BG at around the 2 hour mark since giving insulin. If he's much lower post here. You'll have to do a bit of food intervention if that's the case. I know he eats FF classics but do you have a can or two of gravy style wet food around in case you need higher carbs? In a pinch you can add honey or other syrup to his FF to carb him up. Don't do any of that until you know it's needed.

    Meanwhile, how about setting up the spreadsheet I gave you the link for in post #11 above? If you have to monitor his BG more today it's the best way to track his progress and the easiest way for us to see what's happening.
     
  17. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

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    I have the spreadsheet, the only thing I didn't figure out was how to put it on this website. It' said there would be instructions on how to do that on one of the pages I looked at but it didn't have any, the last step was to copy the link and then I guess somehow I put that on my signature page? I think I have a couple of cans of the gravy style food, the problem is that he doesn't like it, what else could I give him if necessary? Last night I gave him tuna but that's only because I didn't know what the heck to do.
     
  18. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

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    ok, at 2 hours it dropped to 64 so what should I do next?
     
  19. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Re SS: I'm not very techie but go read from step 5 onward again on the how-to link. You have to click on "publish to the web"
    OK. Give him a small snack of his regular low carb food, about a teaspoon or two. Not too much because you'll probably have to repeat this and you don't want to fill him up. Retest in 15-20 minutes and post here as soon as you do.

    ProZinc usually reaches its peak action about 5 to 7 hours after an injection. Feeding small snacks periodically is to control the descent of his BG. You don't want it to go below 50 because then you're getting close to hypo territory.

    For now, his low carb food will suffice. If he goes lower later you can try squeezing the gravy out of one of the cans of that food and put it aside to use a bit at a time. Honey or karo (corn) syrup can also work. If you end up using those later, it's best to drizzle a little onto a teaspoon of his regular food.

    Keep good notes of everything you do:
    • dose
    • BG test numbers and how long after the dose they were done
    • snacks to prop up BG - what, how much and when.
    Any questions?
     
  20. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Recent BG?
     
  21. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Yikes. Do you have honey or Karo syrup in case it drops any lower?? You don't want to see that number fall below 50.
     
  22. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Janet, are you around to help going forward? I have to leave soon and I think there'll be some activity that needs food guidance.
    @Djamila
    @FurBabiesMama
     
  23. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    @catdaddy1 When you're in a situation like this and we're trying to help, we need to get update posts from you to know what's going on. I don't mean to sound bossy. We trying to keep your kitty out of trouble.
     
  24. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I have to go out now. If you need help fast, go post on the main health forum and add the red 911 icon to your thread title. Lower right area of title bar - "edit title" then left end of title bar you'll see a little icon menu.
     
  25. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

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    I gave him some more food but couldn't get a blood test, he's pretty pissed off at me for making his ear look like a minefield but I will at least try to get the 2 hour tests done.
     
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  26. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

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    I'm trying to keep you updated as quickly as I can, between chasing him around and answering the phone I might be slow but I will keep updating. Also I do have honey and I will go buy some of the Karo syrup mentioned above. In fact I have to go out in a few minutes so I will pick some up then.
     
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  27. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

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    By the way, what do you do when the ear prick thing isn't working out due to the fact that it seems to be hurting him enough that I'm the one who ends up doing all the bleeding?
     
  28. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Have you tried warming his ear before you poke? I described a rice sock thing to make in my post #11 up above on this thread. Some of us find that free handing the poke instead of using the lancet trigger device works better. If you have low carb treats to give after every poke he might be a little happier. Little bits of plain cooked chicken work well. You can also buy freeze dried meat or fish treats (no other ingredients added) at most pet food stores.

    Get a BG test when you can and post it here.
     
  29. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    @catdaddy1 Sounds like you all had quite the adventure this morning! Is everything okay? Testing is really tough at first. It took awhile and lots of tears for me and my cat. I hope you and Trooper are both okay after all of that! If you check in here, I would suggest skipping the dose tonight. It sounds like Trooper is running low enough that skipping will be okay, and it also sounds like you could both use a break. Please give us an update whenever you can. Hugs to you both! :bighug:
     
  30. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

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  31. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    I completely understand. I felt so awful for my kitty when we first started because he hated getting the tests and even though everyone says it doesn't hurt them, it sure seemed like it was hurting him! He will get used to it as it becomes more routine for both of you. I would still say my kitty hates the tests, but he'll hop up on the counter when it's time - even if I'm not in the kitchen - because he knows that he gets lots of head scratches while we're doing the test, and treats as soon as it's over.

    Kris' suggestion to get the bigger lancets will help. Then you only have to poke once (most of the time) to get enough blood, so that helps. You can also try a little neosporin (the gel kind, not the cream) to help heal a little faster. And if he'll let you, after the test, gently squeeze the poke spot a little between your fingers to keep it from bruising.
     
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  32. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Sorry I wasn't around.... I was on lunch break at work
     
  33. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

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    Hi, I'm back. Yesterday into this morning became a nightmare as far as trying to test this little hair ball (Trooper). I was embarrassed to come back on here just to let you know that I can't get him to sit still long enough to get a sample. He will let me poke him once, maybe twice, but after that, if I still haven't gotten a decent drop then the race is on and I lose every time, he managed to get blood out of me again this morning though. I'm going to buy the size 26 lancets today so that I can get this moving forward before I turn fifty (I'm kidding, that would be in November, I know I have to figure this out today). I have what little bit of a chart started I just have to figure out how to post it up here to my signature page.
     
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  34. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Here's Djamila's excellent video how-to for linking your spreadsheet into your signature:




    Mogs
    .
     
  35. srk4cats

    srk4cats Well-Known Member

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    I haven't been able to access your spreadsheet. Until you get it figured out, please keep track in a notebook and give us his numbers and times in this forum. There's a thread about setting up and linking your spreadsheet somewhere. One of those posts with the red pins I think. You have to copy the address for this website and link your spreadsheet to that. There might be a place to copy and paste the address on the top right of your spreadsheet, I think.
     
  36. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Please don't ever be embarrassed!!! The first few weeks of testing are really hard. They were hard for all of us. Okay, a couple of people have easy kitties to test, but most of us have had a tough time at the beginning. A big part of it is that as you test (or try to test), their ears actually "learn" to bleed - they get more little capillaries - so it starts to get easier. Plus, our cats start to associate testing with feeling better so they cooperate more as time goes on. So even the attempts that don't work are part of the process leading towards this being easier.

    Make sure that you give him a low carb treat every time you've poked - even if it hasn't resulted in a number. And after a couple of attempts, let him go, take a deep breath, give it a couple of minutes, and then try again. Oh, and you do kind of have to "milk" the ear to get it to bleed. If you kind of push blood towards the poke spot it sometimes helps. At this time of the year, even after I've warmed Sam's ear, I still have to do a fair bit of milking to get a good sample. My house is always a bit chilly so even a kitty who's been at this awhile isn't much for bleeding when he's cold.

    Great job getting the spreadsheet started by the way. There is so much to learn and do at the beginning and it can all feel like just too much sometimes. You're doing a great job, and I promise it will get easier!
     
  37. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Oh, and to turn on "sharing" for your spreadsheet, click on the blue "share" button.
    View attachment 33263
    And then select "anyone with the link can view"
     
  38. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

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    Ok, I've added what there is of my spreadsheet, at least I think it's added. I only gave him the one test tonight because this morning was a disaster but now I have different lancets and it only took a treat and a poke tonight. So as of an hour ago he was at 204 and I'm now giving him the 1 unit every 12 hours but this morning it got missed basically because he thought I was trying to terrorize him I think but I've settled down and so has he so we are friends again.
     
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  39. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Hooray for a good test! And hooray for being friends again! I'm so glad to hear it went well today. There may still be some ups and downs along the way, but you'll start to see more and more of those 'easy' test times as you go forward.

    You've been feeding him fancy feast for about three weeks now, is that right?

    You've had some pretty low numbers so far, and I'm wondering if he may become a diet-controlled diabetic with just a bit more time and insulin support. Because of that possibility, getting the pre-shot tests like you did today is going to be really important, and for now I would suggest skipping the shot if he is below 200. We'll lower that number soon so you can shoot below that, but I'd like to see the testing be a little more secure first. You really don't want him to go below 50, and he was getting pretty close yesterday.

    Also, here is a link with an explanation of the different columns on the spreadsheet since it isn't really self-explanatory. The AMPS and PMPS columns are for the pre-shot blood glucose number, so for this morning you would enter the 204 in that column. And since you skipped the shot this morning, you'll put "NS" in the column for "U"
    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/understanding-the-spreadsheet-grid.156606/
     
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  40. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Oops. "NS" means "no shot"
     
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  41. srk4cats

    srk4cats Well-Known Member

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    I try to avoid giving 'no shot's. If the numbers are below 150, I give half a dose and monitor. Have you tried using the rice sock? Warm it in the microwave for 28 seconds and massage her ear with that for a minute before poking. Also, if her ear is on the rice sock when you poke, you won't get your finger pricked. Unless you want to check your own blood sugar. I remember how nervous I was the first month. Often, Chloe will yelp when I put the needle in, but I've caught her yelping before I even pricked her. The insulin shot seems to hurt her more.
     
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  42. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Yes, with Chloe you really want to avoid no shots because she's been DKA and has been diabetic for a lot longer. CatDaddy1's cat is a new diabetic and is trending lower rapidly, so greater caution is needed in dosing. Those are great suggestions about the rice sock and sharing your experiences in learning to test! :)
     
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  43. srk4cats

    srk4cats Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it's her one-year anniversary of being diabetic.
     
  44. srk4cats

    srk4cats Well-Known Member

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    Did you tell him about the YA cat food?
     
  45. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    No, because I'm one of those folks who thinks kibble is bad for kitties no matter what the carb content might be. ;) I know lots of folks use it around here, but I don't want to promote it because of the dangers of dry food beyond just diabetes. Besides, I've found that leaving out canned or raw food for free feeding works just fine, so there isn't really any need for kibble once a can has transitioned off of it.
     
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  46. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

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    hahaa, I've been thinking he's chirping before I even touch him with the lancet too, I should be able to start getting regular tests soon, he doesn't seem to have a problem with these new lancets I got. I've tried the rice sock but he starts complaining the second it touches his ear so for now I just rub his ears with my fingers, it almost puts him to sleep.
    Yesterday's NS was more my fault than his, I woke up late because my alarm didn't go off. He seems ok today, it's hard to tell just by looking at him but I guess that's what the blood tests are for and hopefully those will be less of a problem now. He just tested at 127 and it's been about 3 hours since he had any food. I don't know If I am supposed to but I give him half a can at breakfast and then about a half can at lunch and another half can at dinner and maybe a quarter of a can in there when he's feeling hungry. I feel like it's not enough because Fancy Feast are little cans. Any advice?
     
  47. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

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    Also as far as the dosing goes, the vet had told me to just give 2 units for a month and bring him in but that didn't sound right and I knew absolutely nothing about what he was talking about. So now I am giving 1 unit twice a day. Are you saying that I should lower it to half of that?
     
  48. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 25, 2013
    No, I think Djamila is just saying that for you, some no shoots are okay. Chloe is a former DKA kitty so she really needs the insulin, even if she is lower than we would normally dose...but your cat isn't, so it's better on lower numbers to not shoot...like if your cat hit 150 at preshot, we might not recommend giving a shot that time.
     
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  49. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I was just saying that Trooper and Chloe are in very different situations right now, so the approach is a bit different between the two.
     
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  50. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

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    Ok, tonight he pre-shot at 163 so I gave him 1 unit, should I have made it 0.5 units? Or should I have not given him a shot?
     
  51. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    I think that was fine. Did you give the shot just now? How many more hours will you be awake? If you can get a test at +3 or +4 before you go to sleep, that would be great so we can see how Trooper responds to the dose. If you need to go to bed before that, it's okay.
     
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  52. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

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    Sorry I didn't get back to you, had some drama, not cat related, last night. Anyway, I haven't gotten a test from him yet today, it's way more difficult in the morning hours for some reason. I will try to get some consecutive tests today to help see the curve better. I did give him 1 unit this morning, he seems fine, I just gave them a snack which I probably shouldn't have, how do I score that on the spread sheet? should I just start at +1,+2, etc....?
     
  53. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Just a point of information to you: the columns on the SS labelled AMPS and PMPS are where you would enter the BG test done before feeding an AM/PM meal and then injecting insulin. Right now you have time of dose in those boxes.

    It's best to give insulin shots as close to 12 hours apart as you can manage. Your AM and PM shot times seem to vary a lot. If you can settle on an AM/PM schedule that accommodates your work schedule that's ideal.

    This might be helpful if you haven't already read it:
    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/understanding-the-spreadsheet-grid.156606/

    You can make notes about snacks, etc. in the right hand section of your SS.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2018
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  54. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015

    Kris has given a helpful link for understanding what information goes in which part of the spreadsheet, and you might also find it helpful to click on a few of our spreadsheets so you can see how we input the data.

    It's fine to give snacks during a curve. You just feed like normal and test at whichever hours you are checking. As far as entering the data, you start counting hours from the time of the injection. So let's say for example (I'll just make up a time) you gave the shot at 8:30am. Then you do a test at 10:30am. That's two hours after the shot, so you enter the blood glucose (BG) number in the +2 column. Then you do another test at 12:30, so you enter that one in +4 column because it's 4 hours after the shot. And on and on.

    I hope everything is okay and the drama is resolved!
     
  55. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

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    Dec 3, 2017

    Yes, the drama is over, no time for drama. So I just tested him and it had been about 7-7.5 hours since his shot and he is at 83. Does that mean that I should feed him some treats or something? Or is 83 good?
     
  56. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    That 83 is a good number. On the face of it, it tells us that the 1 unit dose is good. However, it's possible he was lower at +5 or+6. By the way, your spreadsheet is showing 81, not 83.
     
  57. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Hey, great job getting your spreadsheet sorted! Yes, as Kris said the 83 (or 81 or whatever) is good. You don't need to do any extra feeding unless they get to 50, although of course you can always feed regular low carb food whenever he's hungry.
     
  58. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2017
    Ok, it was 81, my brain and numbers don't go together very well but I double checked and it's 81 thank you. I just got a pre-shot test and it is 123 so would you suggest I skip the shot? Give him 1 unit? or give him 0.5 units?
     
  59. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    I vote for skipping. That's too low to shoot given your current data.
     
  60. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Wait - has it been 12 hours since the morning shot was given?
     
  61. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

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    Dec 3, 2017
    Yes, it had been twelve hours.
    I didn't skip it because I wasn't sure if it could screw him up to get and then not and then get it again and so on
     
  62. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

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    Dec 3, 2017
    do you think maybe I should just not give it to him for a day or two and see if he stays normal?
     
  63. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Unfortunately, you can screw him up more by giving insulin on a number that is too low. In fact, it can kill him. A healthy cat can handle an occasional low number (which I'm assuming Trooper hit last night if you gave him one unit on such a low pre-shot), but if it happens a few cycles in a row his body won't be able to recover, and he'll have a hypoglycemic episode. We really really don't want to see that happen.

    A couple of things going forward:
    1. If you post asking a question, please stick around and keep checking for a response. Last night you asked what you should do. I responded within ten minutes that you should not give the dose. Shooting on that number last night could have been dangerous for Trooper. We can't always respond that quickly, but when you don't know what you should do, guessing can be dangerous. Safety is our first priority when treating diabetes.

    2. If no one responds on this forum within 30 minutes, you can always post in the Main Health forum and ask your question. There is often more traffic out there and sometimes you can get a response quickly. The folk out there may not know the details of dosing for Prozinc, but they know the general guidelines of not dosing when the number is too low and they could have helped. http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/feline-health-the-main-forum.28/

    3. The "rules" of when to shoot and how much do change as your cat progresses, but for right now, please do NOT give any insulin if the pre-shot number is below 150. You don't have enough mid-cycle numbers yet to know if it's safe, and keeping the cats here safe is our first priority.

    I think you should continue to give him insulin if his numbers are high enough to be safe. I think you should skip the insulin if his numbers are too low. And keep working on getting those tests in: one before the shot, and whenever possible, one during the cycle sometime between +4 and +7. That data will help to know when the dose needs to go down, and when he is ready to go off of the insulin.

    Hopefully this helps clarify a little bit. It's a big learning curve at the beginning, and a lot of "rules" to remember. We are here to help. :)
     
  64. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2017
    Ok, I apologize for that and that is all good to know information to know, thank you. I get anxiety attacks over all this so by the time 10 minutes had gone by, it felt like an hour to me but I'm trying to have more patience. I'm a gulf war vet so i have some issues but I have people to help with those too. Also, more background than you asked for, but my mom, who is 89, fractured her femur early last year and I spent the better part of that year nursing her back to health only to have my brother move her out to Tennessee but the point is that I"ve never had anxiety like I get it now just from having to get up anytime during the day or night and rush to be wherever she needed me to be. Anyway, Trooper did ok last night and fortunately he still keeps his same routine of jumping into bed with me, I had to build him stairs a few months ago because I could tell he was getting to heavy when he decided it was time for me to lift him up into bed which was an arm breaker. I think I will weigh him today and see how much he's lost being on this Fancy Feast diet. I skipped his shot this morning by the way because I couldn't get a BG test, I'm going to have to wake up before he does tomorrow and be ready for him when it's time. He's only a few minutes late on it now but I don't know if testing him right after he eats would give useful information about whether to give a shot or not, I'm guessing it's safer to not. Also I will try to get more of the +4 - +7 numbers today because it would be nice to know whether I should or shouldn't be giving him the shot and taking him to the vet is kind of out of the question because after the first trip, the vet money is gone. I spend three times as much money on everything cat now because of the problems with Trooper and the fact that I inherited mom's elderly, mostly deaf, mostly blind cat. So we will try harder to get this all right and thank you again.
     
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  65. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    You have a lot going on right now and we understand how hard it is to get a grip on everything you need to learn to treat Trooper. We want to help you avoid vet visits as much as possible - at least the diabetes related ones. It'll require some patience, a bit of organization and learning more about the insulin.

    I suggest you find a little breathing space today if possible, read over the yellow info stickies about ProZinc and put together as long a list of questions/concerns as you need. We can address each of them. Printing out those yellow stickies is also a good idea so you don't have to search for them every time you need to check something.

    We're here to help. :)
     
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  66. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Please don't feel badly about it! Like I said, there is a lot to learn at first, and it's hard to keep it all straight. We all needed help and reminders when we were first getting started.

    Yes, vets and all of the diabetes supplies do get expensive. I've been putting off a vet visit for my kitty too since he's already been so expensive the past few months. I wish pets were tax deductible the way that kids are!

    When a cat stays in the 50-120 range with most of the numbers under 100, throughout the cycle all on their own, that's when they are ready to go off of insulin. And they have to do that for two weeks before we really declare them done with the insulin and in remission. Sometimes a kitty will have a couple of good days and then start to creep back up which is why remission is based on maintaining the good numbers for two weeks. It will be great to see where he is today without the insulin.

    When you start to feel anxious about all of this, know that you have lots of folks out here who understand. It is really stressful, especially in the beginning, but it gets better with time and practice.
     
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  67. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

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    Dec 3, 2017
    Right now he's at 89 and I listed it as a pre-shot since he hasn't had one since last night. Do you think I should hold back on giving him a shot tonight? I will try to get another test before it's time for him to eat dinner.
     
  68. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    I'm not sure I understand. I take it you didn't give him insulin this AM, correct? If you had given him a dose this morning at your usual time, how many hours is this 89 BG after what would have been the AM dose time? Enter the 89 in the appropriate box on the spreadsheet - eg. +7 or whatever. Leave the AMPS BG test box blank for this AM if you didn't get a test done. The only time you type something into the AMPS or PMPS box is if you do a test right before the AM or PM meal/injection.

    What time zone are you in? How many hours from now would his normal PM meal time be? The only way we can understand what's happening is to know BG reading at a certain number of hours after a shot. Because we live all over the world we need those +2, +3. +4 etc. time labels on the spreadsheet.

    Try to get a BG test right before it's time for his PM meal. If it's under 150 DON'T give insulin. Post here for help.

    Is there anything else about the spreadsheet you need help with?
     
  69. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Let's see...I think you've been giving the injection around 6am/6pm in my time zone, so that would mean the 89 is most likely around +5, does that sound right? If so, that's a great number!

    Test him at or a little before your usual shot time (like 15-20 minutes before) and post here. Depending on how high he gets, I might suggest a very small dose, but I'm pretty happy to see that 89 with no insulin today. Fingers crossed he stays low like that! :)
     
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  70. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

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    Dec 3, 2017
    I think I was going to put it in +6 before I decided to put it as a pre-shot. I'm going to test him right now, I'm in the same time zone as you I guess, I try to give him the shot at around 5:45am and pm. I will post what I get in a few minutes depending on how this goes....
     
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  71. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

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    Dec 3, 2017
    He tested at 97 just now, it's 5:30pm
     
  72. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2017
    I think I've got the spreadsheet figured out for the most part and since he just tested at 97 before dinner I won't give him the shot which means he hasn't needed one all day. Cool beans, I hope I can keep him at lower levels without the insulin
     
  73. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    That's a definite no shot number. If I understand it correctly, he hasn't had insulin since last night, right? He's doing great and it could be because of the low carb wet food. :)
     
  74. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

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    Dec 3, 2017
    Yes correct, no insulin since last night. I will try to test him again before bed and again in the morning if he will let me, he hates more every time when I use the lancet on him. He likes the treats but not the sticks. Anyway thank you, I needed that advice and will keep posting hoping he stays low but not to low
     
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  75. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    I'm so glad Kris was here to help! My parents have been sick and I got caught up at their house helping with some things for a few hours. That's so great that he was at 97 tonight! Are you using the lancet free hand, or using the clicker thingy? I'm wondering if the click is scaring him? Or if he just doesn't like the sticks?

    It's great that he's doing so well on the low carb food. Fingers crossed he keeps at it with these nice healthy numbers!
     
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  76. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

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    Dec 3, 2017
    I hope your parents are ok. Yes I'm doing the freehand, the clicker thingy I couldn't stand and it's kind of intimidating to him to have me poking around his ear with it. No his problem is he had ear mites and still has fleas no matter what I do. They now have something called Revolution which repels both fleas and ear mites so I'm going to get some of that in the next couple of day for both cats. He just scratches at his ears so much that the last thing he wants is for me to be poking him in the ear but he does start crying about it before I even poke him. I hope I don't have to do it very often if he does go into remission, neither one of us likes it.
     
  77. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Oh that's right - I forgot about the ear mites. Hopefully the Revolution will give him some relief! If he goes into remission you only need to test about once/week for a month or so, and then once every two weeks after that. Cats do sometimes come out of remission (mine did) so you need tests every couple of weeks for life so that you can catch it as soon as possible if he starts to rise.

    But one step at a time -- we have to get him into remission first! Yesterday looked pretty good. Let's hope he keeps that trend going!

    Oh, and yes, my parents are okay - they caught the flu and being older it hit them hard. They are doing well now, but don't have their energy back so I've been taking care of the cooking/cleaning/chores around the house for them. Thanks for asking!
     
  78. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    How's Trooper this morning? How are you?
     
  79. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

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    Dec 3, 2017
    Hi, well to be honest Trooper seems to be fine, I couldn't get an early BG from him this morning and was busy all day so couldn't get one. I just did get a BG from him before he has dinner and it is a 106 and this is still with no insulin, so that's good right? Oh and I'm glad to hear your parents are ok, I know how it is when they need help.
     
  80. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Yes, that’s still good. So still no insulin. Keep trying to get at least one test each day for awhile. If you don’t have time to post, just put it on the spreadsheet and I can check on there to keep an eye on him.
     
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  81. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 17, 2016
    Yes, that's a good BG. Is he eating only low carb wet food now?
     
  82. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

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    Dec 3, 2017
    wwwwwwwwwwwwww
    Yes, it's been all FF classic since I found out but I do give him a couple of soft treats after taking blood. What I didn't realize is that I was giving him all seafood FF for the last month because my brother ordered it from Tennessee and I'm in California so I never told him to switch it up an put some poultry in there too. I read somewhere that you shouldn't give them to much seafood but I can't help but wonder if maybe that helps somehow. Anyway, so far so good, I will keep updating because I know things aren't always as they seem and anything could happen.
    Yes I will keep updating, I can't help but feel like that all happened way to fast for it to go into remission that quick but if it has I am not complaining
     
  83. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Frequent seafood isn't great, but you're right - it does tend to be the lowest carb foods. When you can, try to mix in some days with turkey, chicken, etc., to spread out how often he gets the fishy foods. As for treats, do you have a pet store near you? treats that are freeze-dried meat are best (one ingredient only), but they aren't usually sold at the grocery stores. Getting off of the high carb treats might seal the deal on keeping him off of insulin.

    Here are a few you could try:
    https://www.chewy.com/wellness-core-grain-free-100-salmon/dp/141799
    https://www.chewy.com/cat-man-doo-life-essentials-chicken/dp/45664
    https://www.chewy.com/vital-essentials-rabbit-bites-freeze/dp/121706
    https://www.amazon.com/Kaneso-Tokuy...&qid=1515376916&sr=8-2&keywords=bonita flakes

    Another option is buying one of the freeze dried raw foods (like Primal), and breaking the chunks into little bite sized pieces and using them as treats. They are really really dry, so you don't want to feed them that way for a whole meal (dehydration is always an issue for cats and their kidneys are a bit fragile), but just feeding a couple little pieces for treats isn't too bad.
     
  84. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

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    Dec 3, 2017
     
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  85. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

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    Dec 3, 2017
    Update, Trooper still is testing fine with no insulin, just FF Classic and I did buy freeze dried treats for him today, he likes to play with them anyway, I'm sure he will start eating them. Tonight's test was the only one I gave him today and it was 101.
     
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  86. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Aug 1, 2015
    He's playing with them?!? oh, cats...:rolleyes::cat::cat::cat:
     
  87. catdaddy1

    catdaddy1 Member

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    Dec 3, 2017
    This morning he tested 83 at the +7 mark with NS and tonight I tried to get him to eat his flea medication, comfortis which is the only thing I've ever used that works on him, and he didn't like the new flavor FF I bought. I thought he would like a switch from the seafood. So that is one $18 meal he's snuffing his nose at no matter how many times I tell him he will stop jumping around like a jumping bean if he eats it. I just mixed seafood in with it and I'm sure he will get hungry enough to eat it tonight sometime.
     
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  88. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Yeah for the 83, boo for the food refusal. Hopefully mixing in the fish will persuade him to eat it for you!
     

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