Glen - just started Lantus on Dec 22

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Islandmomma

Member Since 2016
Glen spent the day at the vet on December 22 for his first dose of lantus.

He did ok so he came home in the evening.

He was started on 2 u BID.

I did give him 2 doses of 1 u because he didn't eat much & the vet said I felt he doesn't eat much to cut the dose in half.

At first I thought he was doing pretty good but now he is running high. Not sure if this is norm?

Thanks for any insight!

Tammy
 
hello Tammy and welcome... you are most likely experiencing a bounce... your cat has to relearn that the normal levels are normal again... when he gets low right now his liver panics and sends out hormones thinking he needs them now... they take a few days to clear initially but as you go on the bounces get less intense and last less time... there are a lot of experienced people here that will explain it all better... i am still learning myself... @Doodles & Karen @Wendy&Neko @julie & punkin (ga) @Chris & China

welcome again
 
Hi Tammy. I'm glad that you posted here and congrats on getting the spreadsheet up so fast. It takes time for the depot to build and lantus likes consistency. You were being cautious by dropping to 1 unit when he wasn't eating which was smart but that effects the depot and it needs to build again. It likely was too low a dose.

I don't think it's a bounce.
 
hello Tammy and welcome... you are most likely experiencing a bounce... your cat has to relearn that the normal levels are normal again... when he gets low right now his liver panics and sends out hormones thinking he needs them now... they take a few days to clear initially but as you go on the bounces get less intense and last less time... there are a lot of experienced people here that will explain it all better... i am still learning myself... @Doodles & Karen @Wendy&Neko @julie & punkin (ga) @Chris & China

welcome again
Thank you so much!
 
Hi Tammy. I'm glad that you posted here and congrats on getting the spreadsheet up so fast. It takes time for the depot to build and lantus likes consistency. You were being cautious by dropping to 1 unit when he wasn't eating which was smart but that effects the depot and it needs to build again. It likely was too low a dose.

I don't think it's a bounce.
Thank you so much!
 
When you have time please read the yellow stickies at the top of the lantus forum. You will need to decide if you want to follow TR or SLGS. Which one you choose will determine your dosing. Also read and perhaps photocopy how to handle low numbers because you will be in that situation some time, likely sooner than later. There will almost always be someone here to help you through it but sometimes it happens at in the early morning when the west coast folks are sleeping and the east coast not up yet.

BTW good for you to start home testing right away. It took me a couple months to do it. Keep asking questions. We like that here.
 
Copied from other thread in Health

Most vets don't know how to treat diabetic cats.....they see a lot more diabetic dogs than cats

The sad truth is that they only get about 5 hours of "formal" training on diabetes when they're in school (and that covers all species!!)....so unless they have a particular interest in feline diabetes, they don't get much in the way of continuing education on the latest treatments. That's why the people here are so great....we have nothing but time to research the latest treatments and we have lots of real life experience in what works and what doesn't

There's actually a "starting dose" for lantus that's based on how much they weigh
 
OK...if he weighs 7.3kg, if you do TR, the starting dose would be 1.8 (but we usually start a little lower for safety while the depot is filling) so I think I'd start at 1.5 and test to see how he does.

How much you start at also will depend on which dosing method you choose.....the Tight Regulation Protocol or the Start Low, Go Slow method

It makes a difference on dosing advice we'd give you. TR is the only protocol that's been published in a veterinary journal so it has a lot of science behind it, but it requires you be able to test a little more often than SLGS. It also gives the best chance at remission. We've had cats go OTJ (Off The Juice) on SLGS, but it's much more common on TR because you adjust the dose more often in response to the numbers you're getting.

Some of the basic differences are:

TR...dose adjustments can be made as often as every 3 days (6 cycles)...this is most effective because if they're staying in numbers we don't like, we can increase more often
SLGS...dose adjustments are made once a week....this can be hard on the caretaker IF the cat is "stuck" in high numbers very long

TR...reductions in dose are given if they drop below 50(2.8) on a human meter, 68 on a pet meter
SLGS...reductions are given if they drop below 90 (5.0) on either meter

TR...You'll want to get the 2 PreShot (PS) tests and at least one other test....preferably at least 2 other tests.....One somewhere between +4 and +7 on the AM cycle and a "before bed" test on the PM cycle...if you can only get 1, the "before bed" test is most important since most cats go lower at night
SLGS...You still must get the 2 PS tests in, and then do a curve once a week (testing every 2 hours for 12 hours or every 3 hours for 18 hours)

Read over the dosing methods and see if one appeals to you more than the other....You can always change later if you want to

It's also important to get syringes that have half unit markings (especially when we do dosing at .25 and .75!) The half unit markings are as good as we can get.

Just FYI....most of us here are in the US and we are used a different scale than the rest of the world....to convert your numbers, just multiply by 18 (and to convert back, divide by 18!)

Where do you live?
 
Last edited:
OK...if he weighs 7.3kg, if you do TR, the starting dose would be 1.8 (but we usually start a little lower for safety while the depot is filling) so I think I'd start at 1.5 and test to see how he does.

How much you start at also will depend on which dosing method you choose.....the Tight Regulation Protocol or the Start Low, Go Slow method

It makes a difference on dosing advice we'd give you. TR is the only protocol that's been published in a veterinary journal so it has a lot of science behind it, but it requires you be able to test a little more often than SLGS. It also gives the best chance at remission. We've had cats go OTJ (Off The Juice) on SLGS, but it's much more common on TR because you adjust the dose more often in response to the numbers you're getting.

Some of the basic differences are:

TR...dose adjustments can be made as often as every 3 days (6 cycles)...this is most effective because if they're staying in numbers we don't like, we can increase more often
SLGS...dose adjustments are made once a week....this can be hard on the caretaker IF the cat is "stuck" in high numbers very long

TR...reductions in dose are given if they drop below 50(2.8) on a human meter, 68 on a pet meter
SLGS...reductions are given if they drop below 90 (5.0) on either meter

TR...You'll want to get the 2 PS tests and at least one other test....preferably at least 2 other tests.....One somewhere between +4 and +7 on the AM cycle and a "before bed" test on the PM cycle...if you can only get 1, the "before bed" test is most important since most cats go lower at night
SLGS...You still must get the 2 PS tests in, and then do a curve once a week (testing every 2 hours for 12 hours or every 3 hours for 18 hours)

Read over the dosing methods and see if one appeals to you more than the other....You can always change later if you want to

It's also important to get syringes that have half unit markings (especially when we do dosing at .25 and .75!) The half unit markings are as good as we can get.

Just FYI....most of us here are in the US and we are used a different scale than the rest of the world....to convert your numbers, just multiply by 18 (and to convert back, divide by 18!)

Where do you live?

The vet didn't give me any of this info. Just said to give 2 u BID, watch for hypo & decrease by half if vomiting or doesn't eat well. Geesh!
Looks like I have a lot of reading to do!!

I work Monday to Friday, 8-4 and have a kiddo to get ready/take to school. Not sure how I will manage to get all of his tests in :(
 
Hi Tammy! Welcome to the best place you never wanted to be! You're on the right track - you've found a great website that has the most current information on feline diabetes, you've got a very good insulin - so your vet is helping you with that, you've got a spreadsheet and you've learned to hometest. Those are all the hardest things - so now you're just going to learn the fine points.

People here are very knowledgeable and generous with their time - we have many dedicated people who check in throughout their day to answer new member's questions and teach them how to help their cat.

I'd suggest a couple of modifications to your testing schedule - first one is can you get a test right before you go to bed? Cats often have their lowest numbers in the pm cycle, and Lantus dosing is based upon how low a dose can cause the blood sugar to go. So a test before you go to bed can be really, really helpful.

Also, I'd suggest switching your +1 test in the morning to grabbing a test before you give the shot. With 2 little kids and a job, I'm sure the testing is a challenge, but if you can do that, it will help you know that his blood sugar is high enough to give his shot.

I'm going to agree with your vet and disagree with my friends here . . . I think at the stage you are in, when we don't really know if the dose is ok yet or not, it was ok for you to reduce his dose when he wasn't eating. Lantus is a little different than the older insulins used with cats. Traditional insulins used with cats begin their action very quickly after eating, the cat's blood sugar drops fairly quickly over the next few hours and then the insulin wears off. You basically start from scratch with each shot.

Lantus is a depot insulin meaning that it builds up in the body and then sort of slow releases. There is a great link that explains the process here. Because it is a gentler insulin, meaning that it starts its action a little more slowly and the cat's blood sugar will decrease a little more slowly, it is less critical that the cat eat a good meal before the shot is given. As long as Glen doesn't seem ill and you can expect that he will eat over the next couple of hours, then it's probably ok to give his regular shot. But if he does seem sick, definitely post here and ask for help on how to proceed. You don't want a cat that is ill and not eating to get into low numbers - at the same time, a diabetic cat needs their insulin, so it's a balancing act. Because you are still figuring out the dose I think it's ok if you are flexible - but if he's sick, definitely get help here.

Regarding the dose and the suggested dosing guides people have linked - the Start Low Go Slow and Tight Regulation guides - I looked back through your earlier post and don't see what Glen is eating. Is he eating any dry food at all? If so, that means you would use the SLGS guidelines and would start at 1u. With the Tight Reg protocol (no dry food on a regular basis) it is weight-based. 2u is a little higher than we would normally start at, but it looks like it was getting him into the 50's, which is a good goal. Some things for you to think about on how you want to proceed.

You'll be able to do this with kids and a job - it might be a bit crazy at moments, but all of us here have lives. You'll get the hang of things - the first couple of weeks are definitely the hardest. It becomes as routine as brushing your teeth before long. The single best thing I would suggest is a timed feeder. There is a discussion on those in the link Elise (tiffmaxee) gave you above on how to work full time while following Tight Reg guidelines that talks about the feeders. We loved ours.

All cats have patterns that emerge when they are on insulin. As you get tests recorded in your spreadsheet, the patterns will emerge. As that happens, you'll become able to predict what he'll do and once that happens, everything is much easier.

That's probably enough for now - i tend to go on, lol, because I always wanted to know the "why" of everything people suggested. Ask questions and we'll do our best to help you learn how to get Glen regulated.

julie
 
Hi Tammy! Welcome to the best place you never wanted to be! You're on the right track - you've found a great website that has the most current information on feline diabetes, you've got a very good insulin - so your vet is helping you with that, you've got a spreadsheet and you've learned to hometest. Those are all the hardest things - so now you're just going to learn the fine points.

People here are very knowledgeable and generous with their time - we have many dedicated people who check in throughout their day to answer new member's questions and teach them how to help their cat.

I'd suggest a couple of modifications to your testing schedule - first one is can you get a test right before you go to bed? Cats often have their lowest numbers in the pm cycle, and Lantus dosing is based upon how low a dose can cause the blood sugar to go. So a test before you go to bed can be really, really helpful.

Also, I'd suggest switching your +1 test in the morning to grabbing a test before you give the shot. With 2 little kids and a job, I'm sure the testing is a challenge, but if you can do that, it will help you know that his blood sugar is high enough to give his shot.

I'm going to agree with your vet and disagree with my friends here . . . I think at the stage you are in, when we don't really know if the dose is ok yet or not, it was ok for you to reduce his dose when he wasn't eating. Lantus is a little different than the older insulins used with cats. Traditional insulins used with cats begin their action very quickly after eating, the cat's blood sugar drops fairly quickly over the next few hours and then the insulin wears off. You basically start from scratch with each shot.

Lantus is a depot insulin meaning that it builds up in the body and then sort of slow releases. There is a great link that explains the process here. Because it is a gentler insulin, meaning that it starts its action a little more slowly and the cat's blood sugar will decrease a little more slowly, it is less critical that the cat eat a good meal before the shot is given. As long as Glen doesn't seem ill and you can expect that he will eat over the next couple of hours, then it's probably ok to give his regular shot. But if he does seem sick, definitely post here and ask for help on how to proceed. You don't want a cat that is ill and not eating to get into low numbers - at the same time, a diabetic cat needs their insulin, so it's a balancing act. Because you are still figuring out the dose I think it's ok if you are flexible - but if he's sick, definitely get help here.

Regarding the dose and the suggested dosing guides people have linked - the Start Low Go Slow and Tight Regulation guides - I looked back through your earlier post and don't see what Glen is eating. Is he eating any dry food at all? If so, that means you would use the SLGS guidelines and would start at 1u. With the Tight Reg protocol (no dry food on a regular basis) it is weight-based. 2u is a little higher than we would normally start at, but it looks like it was getting him into the 50's, which is a good goal. Some things for you to think about on how you want to proceed.

You'll be able to do this with kids and a job - it might be a bit crazy at moments, but all of us here have lives. You'll get the hang of things - the first couple of weeks are definitely the hardest. It becomes as routine as brushing your teeth before long. The single best thing I would suggest is a timed feeder. There is a discussion on those in the link Elise (tiffmaxee) gave you above on how to work full time while following Tight Reg guidelines that talks about the feeders. We loved ours.

All cats have patterns that emerge when they are on insulin. As you get tests recorded in your spreadsheet, the patterns will emerge. As that happens, you'll become able to predict what he'll do and once that happens, everything is much easier.

That's probably enough for now - i tend to go on, lol, because I always wanted to know the "why" of everything people suggested. Ask questions and we'll do our best to help you learn how to get Glen regulated.

julie
Hi Julie
Glen quit kibble about a week ago. Won't eat it at all! He's always liked his crunchies so not too sure what happened. He eats various tins of wet food (weruva, FF, Friskies, etc) & sometimes raw.

I will try harder to get a before bed sugar. Often I go to bed early. I'm still recovering from breast cancer - chemo and radiation so sometimes I just can't do it :(
 
Hi, welcome!
You can only do what you can do...we understand:bighug::bighug:
It will get easier as it starts to fit into your routine..sending vines for you ( our equivalent of positive vibes if you will) and good number vines for Glen!
So happy you are here! :)
 
Hi Julie
Glen quit kibble about a week ago. Won't eat it at all! He's always liked his crunchies so not too sure what happened. He eats various tins of wet food (weruva, FF, Friskies, etc) & sometimes raw.

I will try harder to get a before bed sugar. Often I go to bed early. I'm still recovering from breast cancer - chemo and radiation so sometimes I just can't do it :(

I jumped a little late on the board, but WOAH you definitely have a lot on your plate. FDMB is literally full of the kindest people and kitties you could ever imagine possible. We're all willing to help provide information and support :bighug::bighug::bighug:

I can only imagine what you're going through. You're incredibly strong for taking care of not only your child but also your three kitties, a diabetic, and yourself recovering <3 :bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
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