? Glucose Curve

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Jenny and Grady

Member Since 2016
Hello -

I did Grady's glucose curve today and was disappointed with the numbers. He is on 3 units of lantus twice a day. I am using the vetgauge glucose meter. Any insight would be greatly appreciated. From what I have been reading, the increases in insulin were probably too great over too short of a time period.

Here are his numbers:

AMPS 200mg/dl
2+ 335
4+ 343
6+ 160
8+ 344
10+ 421

I was sure we were heading in the right direction! We have been giving him low-carb canned food, which he loves. Just start him on the methylcobalamin supplement (despite the vet not thinking it would help). Watching him try to walk is awful and he keeps getting worse. We now have to carry him up to the litterbox to make sure he goes. He seems ok otherwise. He has never been the perkiest of cats so we haven't seen a huge change in his personality.

For reference, here are the results from the first two GC (and I know I should be plotting all of this on the spreadsheet and will start doing so once we figure out how to get him regulated):

12/2/16 (receiving 1 unit of lantus twice a day)
AMPS 444 mg/dl
2+ 464
4+ 498
6+ 405
8+ 397
10+ 441

12/19/16 (receiving 2 units of lantus twice a day)

AMPS 370 mg/dl
2+ 362
4+ 359
6+ 315
8+ 378
10+ 419

Thanks!
 
Welcome to the group. My Doodles had severe neuropathy and it took 6 months for him to recover. The IM vet said he likely would not. The B-12 and getting him regulated with this board brought him back 100%.

We really need you to create the SS and use it every day in order to help "get him regulate". Here are the instructions Spreadsheet Instructions. If you need help let us know. Once it's up and linked to your signature please enter any tests you currently have.

Are you testing before each shot and at least once during each cycle or just doing curves at this point? How long ago was he diagnosed and how much does he weigh? Was he always eating LC wet food since the start of insulin or did you transition him off dry?

I'm going to leave it at that instead of burring you with information and more questions.
 
Thanks for the response Karen. I am glad to hear that the neuropathy can be resolved!

I have filled out the spreadsheet (hopefully correctly) with the 3 GC since that is all I have done up to this point. I will start testing before each shot once we get closer to getting regulated. The meter I am using has very expensive test strips so I am trying to get through the curves and I will then shift to a human meter which will hopefully be more cost effective.

He was diagnosed about 6 weeks ago. I cannot remember how much he weighed at the vet. He is a big boy and has lost some weight. I would say around 13 lbs. We have transitioned him mostly to fancy feast classics but there is still some dry food available upstairs for our other cat. Grady is not eating it though because he pretty much stays downstairs and eats the canned food before he gets his insulin. If he does get any, it is only a few pieces because we are trying to watch what he is eating very closely.

I didn't add it to my signature but Grady is 9.

Thanks for taking a look!
 
I will start testing before each shot once we get closer to getting regulated

It's really important for you to be testing now......We have seen cats go from 400's to 40 and back to 400's again by their next shot time.....without testing before each shot and at least once mid-cycle, you'd think the cat needed more insulin, when in fact it needed less!!

The only way to get regulated is to test....before each shot and if at all possible, at least once mid-cycle on the AM cycle and always a "before bed" test on the PM cycle.....Most cats go lower at night so getting that "before bed" test could prevent you from waking up to a tragedy

We also never do increases in whole units.....Insulin is a very powerful hormone and even small changes like .25 unit can make a big difference in the numbers.
 
Chris -

I appreciate the information and the advice about testing now. Right now, it takes 2 of us to test him so 3 times a day with us working and on very different schedules will be difficult. I have not been increasing the insulin on my own; I am following the direction of my vet with the increases in insulin based on the 2 previous curves. I will discuss the most recent GC with her on Monday and figure out next steps.
 
I understand about the difficulty testing......we just want to keep Grady safe

Here's something I wrote up for others that needed help with testing...maybe it'll help you too!

It can be really helpful to establish a routine with testing.
Pick one spot that you want your "testing spot" to be (I like the kitchen counter because it's got good light and it's at a good height....it also already blocked 2 escape routes due to the wall and the backsplash) It can be anywhere though...a rug on the floor, a table, a particular spot on the couch...wherever is good for you. Take him there as many times a day as you can and just give his ears a quick rub and then he gets a yummy (low carb) treat. Most cats aren't objecting so much with the poking..it's the fooling with their ears they don't like, but once they're desensitized to it and learn to associate a certain place with the treats, they usually start to come when they're called! Or even when they hear us opening the test kit!

You also have to remember...you're not poking him to hurt him...you're testing him to keep him safe and understand what's going on inside his body. There's just nothing better than truly understanding what's going on inside your kitty's body and with this disease, the more knowledge you have, the more power you have against it. The edges of the ears have very few pain receptors, so it really doesn't hurt them. Also, if you're nervous and tense, it's going to make your kitty nervous and tense too. As silly as it might seem, try singing! It forces you to use a different part of your brain!

It's also important to make sure his ear is warm. A small sock filled with a little rice and microwaved or a small pill bottle filled with warm water (check temp against your wrist like you would a baby bottle) works well.

When you're first starting, it's also important to use a lower gauge lancet, like 25-28 gauge. Most of the "lancet devices" come with 33 gauge lancets and they are just too tiny to start with. The bigger lancets (that are lower numbers) make a bigger "hole". As you poke more and more, the ears will grow new capillaries and will be easier and easier to get blood from...we call it "learning to bleed"

Finding the right "treat" will be a great help too! Freeze dried chicken, bonito flakes, little pieces of baked chicken...whatever low carb treat you can find that he really enjoys will help him to associate the testing with the treat! China's Achilles heel was baked chicken, so I'd bake a piece, chop it into bite sized pieces, put some in the refrigerator and freeze the rest to use as needed. It didn't take long for her to come any time I picked up the meter!
 
Hi Jenny!

Great job getting the spreadsheet set up!

I think it would help to understand a little more about the process of getting regulated. Dogs are very easy to regulate. A vet will keep the dog for a few hours, inject insulin and measure the blood sugar drop that results over the next few hours. You get a dose to give your dog, and for the next 6 months or so, that's the dose the dog gets til the vet checks the dog again. If you see signs of hypo, a little karo syrup brings them up. I have a friend whose dog was diagnosed while Punkin was still alive - so probably 4 years ago. She's been giving her dog the same dose since then, and I think twice has had to give Karo to the dog. She doesn't hometest at all.

Cats, on the other hand, are an entirely different beastie! They have a several quirks that make it so that particular process doesn't work for them:

~ when the Lantus or Levemir dose is increased, the cat's blood sugar sometimes will rise for a day or so after the dose increase. We fondly call this "New Dose Wonkiness." No one knows why this occurs, but it goes away on its own so you just wait it out.

~ a cat's body will accept whatever blood sugar level it is used to as normal. It looks like Grady is spending some time over 300 - if so, then that's going to be the level that his body now thinks is its norm. That's called Glucose Toxicity - sounds worse than it is. Nevermind that a non-diabetic cat has blood sugar in the 30's-60's range (on a human glucometer, around 50-80 on your pet meter). When you give insulin and that drops the blood sugar out of the 300's, Grady's body is going to think that he's having a hypo - even if it only goes to 200, which is still too high. His body will release stored sugars and counter-regulatory hormones to bring it back up over 300, where the body now thinks it is safe. That can often shoot a cat's blood sugar to 500 even. We call this a bounce - and it can last for as long as 3 days. The body will eventually clear out those hormones and sugars and then the blood sugar will drop back down again.

Those high bounce numbers do not signify that the cat needs more insulin. This is a time to wait and see what happens when the bounce "clears" so you can see accurately how low the cat's blood sugar is capable of going on that dose.

~ cats also have the ability to have their pancreas heal and potentially begin putting out insulin again. That is unique to cats - once dogs are diabetic, it's rare (impossible?) for them to become diet-controlled and for their pancreas to heal. If a cat's pancreas begins to heal, then they need less insulin injected. That's critical - cats don't stay at a dose endlessly like a dog might.

~ in a cat not enough insulin can cause high numbers. Too much insulin can also cause high numbers - which is so very counter-intuitive! The numbers can look exactly the same - which is why we look at the blood sugar tests in context to figure out if a cat might be overdosed or underdosed when they get here. Where the dose increases done appropriate? Long enough interval in between? Small enough dose increases? What is the cat eating? Are there any other concurrent conditions that might make the cat need more insulin? Are there any meds that could be raising the blood sugar and therefore causing the cat to need a higher dose?

~ in a carb-sensitive cat, we have seen it documented that even 3 pieces of regular dry cat food - 3 little crunchies - can raise the blood sugar by 100's of points and can keep it there for even as long as another day after they ate the food. Conversely, when a cat is switched from dry food to low carb wet food, their blood sugar can drop significantly, thereby lowering the amount of insulin they need.

~ in a sensitive cat, the stress of vet visits can also raise a cat's blood sugar by 100's of points.

One thing that we frequently see here is that vets have gotten the word that the depot insulins (Lantus and Levemir) are excellent for diabetic cats, but they might not have enough experience with them to realize that the dosing strategies are different than what was done with the older in-and-out, non-depot insulins.

To know what to do with the dose, you have to be able to answer the question "how low does this dose make my cat's blood sugar go?" Low numbers are the most dangerous ones - so knowing the answer to that question is very important. The difficulty is that sometimes, if a cat is bouncy, the low point might only show up every 3 days! That might or might not work if you're testing for 1 cycle once a week - what if it the cat is in a bounce and the low numbers were the prior day? The way to get the "just right" dose of insulin is to start with a lower dose, and increase it methodically by small amounts - 0.25u to 0.5u - slowly enough (roughly every 3-7 days, depending on the test numbers) and gradually work up until the cat is getting into normal numbers at the lowest points on a dose, under 130 or so on your pet glucometer.

I hope some of that illustrates why people are suggesting what they are. Getting regulated can take weeks, if not longer. It is the rare cat that has it happen quickly. Literally thousands of people have learned how to take care of their diabetic cats on this message board.

I'd encourage you to go ahead and switch to a cheaper human glucometer. I just put some information on saving $$ on Cricket's thread - maybe some of that will also help you.

As far as his dose, if you can create a situation where he can't get any dry food, then he will likely need less insulin. I feed my 3 cats (all not diabetic, we call them civvies, all on low carb canned food) in 3 separate rooms. Get 3 bowls ready, put one down in the laundry room for Frodo (starving but slow eater), one down outside the laundry room (McGee voracious) and one in a bedroom (Anya, would like to come back and graze, thank you very much) - after 10 minutes or so I open the doors and let everyone out. You might see if you can do something like that with yours so Grady doesn't get access to any crunchies.

Insulin is so powerful - I want to encourage you to get switched to the human meter asap so that you can test him prior to every test. That will only catch the high points, because cat's blood sugar is typically highest at shot time when the prior dose has mostly worn off, but at least you will know he is high enough to get insulin. To be able to answer the question "how low is this dose taking him?" you'll need to catch a test in between the shots. Many, many cats have their lowest numbers in the pm cycle, so we often encourage people to grab a test before bed. The only motivation we have for encouraging you to test at home is for Grady's protection, based upon what we see here every day. Just because he's been high in these 3 cycles doesn't mean that he stays high all the time. He doesn't. Cats' blood sugar goes up and down and up and down.

Here is a link that will help you find information that we use frequently in this group "Where Can I Find?" You might want to look through it and bookmark it for future reference.

You're off to a good start! You're here, you've got a great insulin, you're ready to learn! Keep asking questions and we'll do our best to help you learn how to help Grady!
 
I'm glad Julie & Chris chimed in. We're all just trying to help. I will share this with you.

When Doodles was first diagnosed in May 2015, I was told no need to home test, just give x amount every 12 hours and only feed him every 12 hours. Once every few weeks I was instructed to bring him in for a mid cycle test and his insulin was adjusted that way. This continued for 2 months where we were at 3u of Vetsulin insulin at the time. I had noticed that he was just laying in one spot for hours so we took him in and he his BG was 40 on an AT meter. We were off to the ER and almost lost him. After that he was switched to Lantus. Still instructed to only test doing curves at home and his insulin was adjusted again based only on those curves. At one point we started testing a little more. Again, we ended up in the ER when he started the day in the 400's and was in the 30's mid day. Embarrassingly enough it took me twice of almost loosing him because of not testing, getting his dose adjusted by vets based off curves every so often to "wake up".

Luckily I found this board (5 months after his DX), started testing appropriately, adjusting his dose according to the protocol and following advise here. It saved his life.
Low and behold those miserable 5 months for him quickly turned around with regulation and reversed neuropathy. You have an advantage by finding the board very early in your kitties dx. We were also using a meter with very expensive strips and switched to the human meter after coming here so we could afford to treat him appropriately.
 
Julie and Karen -

Thank you got taking the time to explain everything to me. It makes a lot of sense. I will go ahead and get the human glucometer. How close will the numbers be to the vet one once I switch?

Also, how do I deal with this with my vet? I mentioned that she was not receptive to the b12 supplement (which I am doing any way). Should I just go back to the 1 unit of lantus and work up from there? Do I tell the vet or just do on my own? Obviously I want what is best for Grady and I have no problem following what is suggested here.

Dry food will be gone :)

Again, I appreciate the information and support.
 
Hi Jenny and Grady,
My story is similar to @Doodles & Karen, except that I shot--the old- style insulin--"blind" for 4 years, never testing and only taking my diabetic cat, Stu, in for occasional curves at the vet. When Stu's insulin was discontinued he was switched to Lantus by a vet who didn't know that depot insulins are treated very differently than the old in-and-out insulins. Stu's dose was raised by 1 or 2 units at a time for weeks until he crashed. We almost lost him. That's when I found this board and began following the protocol, which saved Stu's life. There are so many knowledgeable people on this board.

If you can establish a good relationship with your vet, that would be great, because we need our vets for prescriptions and for things other than feline diabetes. But many of us have found that it works just to nod in agreement with the vet, but then follow the protocol established here.

Welcome to our board.

Ella & Rusty

p.s. A glucose meter is just a way of measuring. You don't need the alpha trak. You are so new at this "dance" that you can just switch to a good human meter and go on from there. Many people use the Walmart Relion brand (the Confirm or the Micro). The strips are very reasonable and the meters are fine.
 
I'd suggest you keep the vet glucometer, and every once in a while get some numbers on it for your vet. I'd probably choose to do that when you catch a low number on your human meter.

As far as how off - they will be different. How much is unknown. We've had people do side by side comparisons and not been able to say "a 50 on a human meter = x on a pet meter." It's not a percentage, it's not a straight number difference. Most people use human meters because of 3 reasons - 1) they are considerably cheaper and 2) our dosing guidelines were developed with human glucometers and 3) more people here will help with human meters because they are familiar with the numbers.

Your human meter numbers will likely be lower. We used to say 30%, but now we know that's not accurate. The glucometers are closer to each other in low numbers than in high numbers.

For your vet, you have choices. You can smile and nod. You can try to educate her as you learn things. You can get some tests using the pet meter and give her that data.

For the dose, it's always good to get testing first before you make drastic changes. I'd get the new glucometer asap. I wouldn't take away all dry food without reducing his dose.

You have a choice with this - we have 2 dosing guidelines that we use in this group. The Tight Regulation Protocol and Start Low Go Slow. I wrote this post for another new member a while back and gave her some of the significant differences between the 2 guides. Take the time to read the part about the depot while you're reading that thread - it really helps to understand it.

And a fyi - sometimes people look at the word "tight" and think that it means testing hourly and being difficult. It does not. Even people who work full time can and do follow these guidelines. You'd want to be able to get at least both preshot tests and at least 1 other test before you go to bed - at a minimum. Then most people following this guide will test more when they are home. The main thing with either dosing method is that you want to be confident how low the dose is dropping a cat's blood sugar before you increase the dose. Most people will post here to get help on when they should increase the dose before they do it. Experienced people can look at Grady's spreadsheet and help you see what's going on and how to decide.

If you can get rid of Grady's access to dry food for the most part, then you have the option of the Tight Regulation Protocol. That has a weight-based formula to begin with, and a cat that weighs 13 lbs (= 5.9kg) would start at (5.9x0.25= 1.47) either 1.25u or 1.5u per shot.

If you want to follow the Start Low Go Slow guidelines, a cat eating all wet low carb food would begin at 0.5u. A cat eating any dry food begins at 1.0u.

That said, it's not required that you start entirely over again. If you can get some tests in so that we can see what's going on in his body on his current diet and dose, then we can also guide you to increase or decrease his dose as you make the diet changes.

So there are choices. Please ask about anything that's confusing so you understand things and can make a decision that works for you and your life.
 
One more thing about your vet - she works for you. But you have to meet her partway to keep her happy and wanting you as a client, unless you want to switch to someone else. My guess is that she doesn't have much experience with using depot insulins. That's likely not her fault - so many people euthanize their diabetic cats upon diagnosis that many vets just don't have that experience. When I got Punkin's spreadsheet going I was super excited about it and showed the vet. I think they didn't have any idea how to read the spreadsheet, so no one was nearly as excited about it as I was, lol.

Soon after punkin was diagnosed with acromegaly, I realized that our favorite country vet just didn't know enough about diabetes, much less acro, so I went looking for a new vet. There was one cat-only clinic that I went to visit. We saw a young (20's) vet who said she would be in charge of the dose. I'd already been testing Punkin for a few months and knew that wasn't going to work for me.

Instead I switched to a vet that had 14 cats at home, including 2 diabetic cats, and THEN learned that she didn't even hometest. If her cat exhibited hypo symptoms, she ran them to the vet clinic and put them on a glucose drip. Still, she saw that I knew what I was doing with the dose adjustments and she didn't give me any trouble. She knew lots about everything else and that's what I needed for Punkin. So that's where we stayed.

I'd just suggest you take it slowly with your vet, whatever you do decide. Not too many vets are keen on their clients getting info off of the internet. So learn here, take care of Grady the way you want, and proceed carefully with your vet.
 
Ella and Julie have covered everything. Just to add one more thing about the difference in meters. A human meter is calibrated for human blood and the pet meters are calibrated for feline blood so they will never read the same for this reason. However the TR protocol was published using a human meter. The most important thing is to know normal numbers on a human meter are 50-120. I personally love the Relion Confirm....sounds funny to "love" a meter.
 
Sounds good. I will run to Walmart tomorrow and pick up a new glucometer and start testing. Hopefully we can get a better picture of what is going on with Grady and then make adjustments from there. And I will not cut him off of the dry food cold turkey.

Thanks for advice on the vet. She is very young and I have not had a good vibe from her but our town is kind of limited. She is not responsive to emails (although she specifically gave me her email so I could get in touch with her) and does not have a warm and fuzzy bedside manner. There is an older vet at the practice whom we have used for our dogs and I love him. I may see what we can do about switching.
 
Not all WalMart carry both the Confirm and Micro....if yours has either one, they use the same strips and are both great meters....the only difference is the size of the actual meter
 
Just purchased the Confirm and did a quick test to try it. LOVE IT! So much easier than the vet glucogauge...much more time to get the sample, the lancet device was easy to use and did not seem to hurt Grady at all, and the little tiny drop of blood I got was perfect. And the fact that the strips are not over $1 each is a huge plus!

Thank you to everyone!
 
Quick follow up about testing before bed time. What should I be looking for as a red flag? Since I will have already given insulin earlier in the evening, I just want to make sure I am clear about what to do.

Thanks
 
We have a loose "+ 2" rule around here that we've seen works pretty well for most cats on Lantus (some do better with a +3 though....testing will let you know which one Grady is)

If the +2 is about the same as the Pre-shot, it's usually a normal cycle....going gradually down until nadir and then gradually back up again to the next PS

If the +2 is higher than the PS, that can be your signal that he's starting a bounce....those are usually the cycles where you can rest easy and take a break in testing

If the +2 is lower than the PS, that's your "Early warning" that Grady might be going much lower later in the cycle....that's when you want to plan on getting more tests in later in the cycle....depending on how much of a drop that +2 is will dictate how much sooner you need to test again
 
So should I do a +2 test after the AM shot and the PM shot or should I try to get a +6 shot after the morning shot since that seems close to where his nadir is?

The +2 in the evening makes sense. I am going to start testing today so hopefully once I put the numbers in this will all make more sense to me.

Thanks for the response!
 
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