going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thoughts

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (Welcome & Main Forum)' started by Theresa6, Jan 10, 2012.

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  1. Theresa6

    Theresa6 Member

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    Dec 13, 2011
    My cat Stella is newly diagnosed, started on Lantus mid December. She was also diagnosed with hyperthyroidism at the same time.

    We started her on thyroid meds and lantus at the same time and her BG is not even close to regulated. I finally started home testing about 2 weeks ago and her numbers are consistently between 350 and 450. We have gone up and have seen no change. She was diagnosed at about 450.

    I spoke to my vet today (who I love) and she said she has been doing some more research for us, and suggested (as did everyone here!) to go to no dry all wet food diet. Easier said than done, but I am working on that part. She also said that its possible that if the thyroid is not under control that somehow she might be insulin resistant? I am not sure about that part, but we ultimately decided I would keep home testing her to monitor what her BG is doing and stop the insulin for now since it seems to be doing nothing. We would go in in two weeks to check her thyroid levels and if it is under control start up with insulin again and if not, get it under control before starting insulin.

    I guess our thought was that the insulin seems to be having no effect on her now anyway, so why pump her full of it if its clearly not helping? I mean i saw no difference between 2u and 2.5u. Her numbers are still crazy.

    Does anyone have any thoughts about this? Concerns? I would really appreciate feedback.
     
  2. MommaOfMuse

    MommaOfMuse Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    If you are going to stop insulin please make sure to test her as often as possible for ketones, and if she ever tests higher than a trace...Get her to the vet asap, ketones can turn into DKA very quickly and can be life threatening.

    I'm sure others will have more to add but that is one thing you do want to keep an eye on while going off insulin and still seeing high numbers.

    Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang.
     
  3. Squeaky and KT (GA)

    Squeaky and KT (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Jul 19, 2011
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    Insulin isn't a chemical medicine, it's a hormone that's usually produced by the pancreas. Without it, the body cannot metabolize the food it's given. A cat can truly starve to death while gorging themselves. In my humble opinion, those high BGs are damaging - even if a little bit of insulin is being used, at least there's SOMETHING there.

    Hugs,
     
  4. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

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    Feb 17, 2011
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    oh theresa, those are definitely the numbers of a diabetic cat. treating a diabetic cat is a slow process - for some cats it takes a while to get regulated. i have to wonder how much experience your vet has with diabetic cats, because an untreated diabetic cat can get very sick very quickly. high numbers for even a short period of time can lead to diabetic ketoacidosis in some cats, which is a crisis that can only be treated in a veterinary hospital.

    i'm not trying to scare you, but i think these are numbers that are serious and i would want to really encourage you to reconsider this decision. my guess is that you kinda already think that, and that's why you've posted asking for feedback. i think your gut is telling you that going off of insulin isn't going to help her and might be really bad.

    there are a number of cats here with hyperthyroid and diabetes as well, so we can help you with that too.

    we follow the Rand/Roomp Protocol that tells very specifically how to dose using Lantus. what you very likely are experiencing with the crazy numbers are a couple of ordinary phenomena that happens to cats on lantus.

    1. when we increase a dose, there is a thing we call "new dose wonkiness" that makes the BG numbers go kinda wonky for up to 3 days. we hold the dose to let it settle down and then re-evaluate at that time.

    2. if a cat's BG goes into a range that is lower than it is used to, it can trigger a response in the cat's liver. the liver thinks the body is becoming hypoglycemic and it will let loose a flood of stored sugars and hormones that are intended to save a cat's life. unfortunately, the liver can do that at 200. if the cat's body has gotten accustomed to blood sugar in the 300's, even the drop to 200 can set it off. the second circumstance that can cause this is if the cat's BG drops really fast - like 100 points in an hour or two. again, the liver reacts and then the cat's numbers go very high. we call that a bounce, and it also can last up to 3 days.

    these things both settle down, but one must watch and observe to understand what is happening.

    with regular testing you will learn how your cat's body responds to insulin. this is what we do on the lantus TR forum - we teach people how to "read" their cat. without knowing more numbers i can't tell you what stella is doing, but i (and many others) would be so happy to teach you more. then there's no guessing what's going on, you know. knowledge is power and it takes away the fear of not knowing how to proceed.

    if you want to read through some material to get you started, this is a good place to start. New to Lantus/Levemir? Start Here

    do you have stella switched to all canned low carb foods? if not, on the link above is a link to Janet & Binky's list. you want less than 10% carbs - most of us go less than about 6%. i can't tell from your "easier said than done" if you're being successful with that yet. there are a lot of tips on http://www.catinfo.org on how to transition a dry-food addict to canned food.

    we don't even consider insulin resistance until a cat is getting more than 6 units per dose (my punkin is one) - and the cat has gotten to that dose mostly by increases of .25unit not more often than every 3 days. that's the safe way to do it and not miss a good dose.

    i've got a doc for you to print out and give your vet on the protocol for dosing with Lantus. we can teach you how to apply this to Stella - and you have help here 24/7. :YMHUG:



    please continue to post here with your questions so we can help you. more hugs!
     

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  5. Teresa and Poopy

    Teresa and Poopy Well-Known Member

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    Dec 17, 2011
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    Is Stella gaining weight? Losing weight? How's her appetite? Is she grooming herself? Does she have dandruff? Is she eating like there's no tomorrow or normal amounts? How's her water intake and output? Normal for a cat or huge amounts?

    With such high BG #s, I'd be terrified to remove all insulin help from Poopy. The insulin helps him make use of the food he eats, even when it's the low carb.

    Did you start Stella on 2u 2x a day? If so, it might be too much and why you're still getting high numbers. I'd suggest doing a low dose 2x a day - .5u or 1u, home test to watch numbers, and get Stella on all wet, low carb so the carbs aren't adding to the problem. I know it can be tricky, getting our cats to change foods, but we have to do what is best for them to help them with their diabetes.

    I know we want to trust and obey our vets. Unfortunately, most vets don't know enough about feline diabetes, and don't live with it 24/7. We do. We have to for our fuzzies.

    Paw hugs from Poopy and well wishes from me. :smile:
     
  6. Theresa6

    Theresa6 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2011
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    Thanks everyone for the responses! The reason the vet and I thought we should take Stella off the insulin temporarily is that her numbers are the same as what they were before she was even on the insulin. So it seems that we are giving it to her for no reason because her BG is the same with or without it.

    I am working on the food transition, but it will most likely not be possible, at least not entirely. I posted a couple of threads about this but Stella is a barfer, and pretty much everything that wasn't a prescription hydolized soy protein diet makes her throw up. She can tolerate a small spoonful at a time of a very limited few canned foods. So unfortunately at this time the best I can do is a spoonful of wet three or four times a day. But as I said, I'm working on it!

    I also wanted to say that I tested her today after what would have been two rounds of shots. Her BG was 460, which is basically what I was getting with the insulin.
     
  7. Theresa6

    Theresa6 Member

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    Dec 13, 2011
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    also, I don't understand how a higher dose of insulin could be giving her higher numbers. Can someone explain that to me please?
     
  8. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
  9. Eva & Butters

    Eva & Butters Member

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    Apr 18, 2010
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    Hi, Theresa ~

    "I finally started home testing about 2 weeks ago and her numbers are consistently between 350 and 450. We have gone up and have seen no change." -- When you get a chance, could you please post Stella's bg numbers that you have for the past 2 weeks along with the Lantus dose amounts? That way, some of our experienced Lantus users might be able to give you a better idea of what might be going on with Stella. Are you getting any mid-cycle numbers to see how low Stella's going, Theresa, in addition to the preshot numbers?

    Theresa, as others have mentioned, I'm also very concerned about your stopping Stella's insulin now. I can only speak for myself and my diabetic cat, but I wouldn't do that. Are you and your vet testing Stella for ketones?

    Hang in there, Theresa! You'll get this figured out. With more information, I know you'll get some good suggestions from other Lantus users here.

    Take care,
    Eva
     
  10. Sienne and Gabby (GA)

    Sienne and Gabby (GA) Senior Member Moderator

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    Dec 28, 2009
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    Without seeing a spreadsheet and your cat's numbers, I'd be very hesitant to draw any conclusions as to whether Stella is experiencing rebound or is insulin resistant. As far as the latter, there's a very simple way to make that determination. Michigan State University is the only lab in the US that can test for feline insulin autoantibodies (IAA) which is what causes true insulin resistance.

    If this is insulin resistance, the only way to overcome the antibodies is with more insulin. There are several cats on Lantus with an IAA diagnosis. In fact, Sandy's Black Kitty is an IAA cat who eventually went into remission.

    I agree with what everyone else has said. If you are determined to take Stella off insulin, please test religiously for ketones. DKA can kill your cat. It is a serious medical emergency should it occur and it will literally cost you thousands of dollars in ICU vet charges. The cost of Ketostix is about $15 and it's the most cost effective thing you can do to prevent ketones from developing into DKA.
     
  11. Theresa6

    Theresa6 Member

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    Dec 13, 2011
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    Thank you everyone for your posts. I am working on a spreadsheet, but the reality is free time in my life is in very short supply :) I have three human children, the oldest of which has very severe and chronic special needs. The youngest is an infant. Of course there is Stella, and I also have two dogs. I stop by the computer when I have a free second, but I usually don't have more than a minute or two at a time.

    In terms of rebound, would it have lasted this long (a month)?

    Also, I understand everyone's concerns about taking her off of insulin, but her numbers on and off are no different... why would I all of a sudden need to be concerned if over the last month her numbers were the same even though she was getting insulin? It was clearly not impacting her BG. I don't see how taking her off of it is dangerous since it wasn't working in the first place.
     
  12. KarenAmelia

    KarenAmelia Member

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    Jan 2, 2012
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    I'm seeing something similar with my cat Terra, whom I started on 1.5 u/2x day of Lantus on Dec 31. There was a response where she went down to single digits after a few days of dosing, then has bounced back up and seems to be staying in the 400s BG numbers. My spreadsheet is attached. The replies here are helpful. I didn't realize that a drop of 100 or more in an hour could cause bounce. Nor did I realize that a number as high as 200 could cause bounce in a cat that has become accustomed to high BGs. No, my vet doesn't seem to know that much about FD. He is pretty hands off. I'm wondering if the Lantus "wonkiness" will settle out soon. Terra is listless today, after having had a couple of good days where she played and was almost like her old self. The numbers seem consistently high the past few days, and I just got 400 at +6.5. I'm taking heart that I should just continue to do what I'm doing and hope for some improvement in the near future. How do I know when it's time to do something different? How long do I keep doing the same thing?

    Thanks for this thread and good luck Theresa. You're doing the best you can.
     
  13. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    Theresa,

    I can set up a spreadsheet for you. I just need some info. See your pms if you want me to get to going.
     
  14. Julia & Bandit (GA)

    Julia & Bandit (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    Without daily mid-cycle tests, it's impossible to know how much the insulin was lowering Stella's blood glucose. Until a cat is regulated (and it can take months to regulate), you'll have ups and downs in the cycle throughout the day. This is because when a cat has been experiencing high numbers for a while, their body thinks that the high numbers are the now normal, so when you get a normal number the liver releases glucose into the bloodstream to counteract the "low" number. This is the same reason why a dose that is too high will keep numbers just as high as too low a dose.

    I would strongly urge you not to stop insulin. It's impossible to know without seeing your data, but unless you were testing at least three times a day, with a curve once a week, you really don't know how much the insulin is working. Also, if you were making dose adjustments in whole units then it's very probably you missed your cat's ideal dose. Regulating blood sugar is kind of like shooting an arrow at a bullseye--you have to get the dose in just the right spot or it doesn't work. That's why we increase in .25u increments.

    Also, if Stella was eating dry food then she would require more insulin than a cat on a canned diet. 2u simply may not be enough insulin to counteract the high carbs from the dry food.

    Again, it's impossible to know exactly what the problem is without seeing your testing data, but all of these things can be easily fixed. I would urge you to try using the insulin with the correct dosing protocol before you dismiss it as being ineffective. There is a window for remission for cats with diabetes, and the longer you delay treatment the more likely it is that your cat will require insulin permanently.

    Untreated diabetes is not a kind condition. The cat slowly and painfully starves to death because their bodies cannot metabolize their food.
     
  15. Theresa6

    Theresa6 Member

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    Dec 13, 2011
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    I have been testing midcycle daily, she gets her insulin (got) at 7 and 7 and we started at 2u and went up to 2.5. her midcycle tests have been consistently the same.
     
  16. Julia & Bandit (GA)

    Julia & Bandit (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    2.5u is probably not enough insulin for a cat eating dry food. I've seen cats on dry food end up on much higher doses. A few cats on canned food end up at 3-3.5u. I don't think you've given treatment enough time--like I said it can take months to regulate, and in your case maybe longer since you are unable to remove the dry at the moment. But just because your cat isn't regulated doesn't mean the insulin is working.

    Again, I would urge to to continue insulin therapy while utilizing the Lantus protocol. Also, if you could share your data with the spreadsheet Sue set up for you, there are very experienced people here who might be able to shed some light on what's going on. My guess is that you need to raise the dose--but that's a guess without seeing the data.
     
  17. Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    What have they been? You said you are getting 350-450 range numbers. Is that the preshot numbers, or are the 350's the nadir numbers?

    When she was originally diagnosed, did your vet keep her for a day or two and treat her with insulin, maybe a different type than lantus?

    This question is for lantus users - do you ever see where a cat won't respond much or at all to lantus, but then they switch to a different type and it works better? Like noticeably and immediately better? I'm thinking maybe try a different type of insulin, even just for a couple days, and see if the numbers respond to the different insulin. I mean, you shoot 2u of Humulin or PZI into a kitty, and the numbers are going to do something that cycle, aren't they?

    ETA - that is, unless the reason really is "insulin resistance" in which case, probably no type of insulin is going to show a quick result.
    Carl
     
  18. Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    Theresa,
    To echo what lots of people have already said..... checked often for ketones. High numbers and ketones can go together really quickly.
    Bob was diagnosed on a Friday, I ordered insulin Saturday, didn't get it in the mail until Tuesday. In those few days, he went from "just diabetes" to DKA and required 3 nights of emergency care. Big bucks, but even worse, the vet told me just one more day and he probably would have died. It can happen that quickly. (10 weeks later, he was in remission)


    Carl
     
  19. Ann & Scatcats

    Ann & Scatcats Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2009
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    Simba wasn't responding to the Lantus, and the vet believed he had Cushings. But all it was, was really the dry food, and when I changed the food he became better and responded to the Lantus. That was 4 years ago.
     
  20. Theresa6

    Theresa6 Member

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    Dec 13, 2011
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    Thanks to Sue's kindness and patience, I now have a spreadsheet up :) Thank you Sue!

    Clearly my testing has been imperfect in terms of timing and things, but I'm trying! Please take a look and tell me what you think. With the exception of that one day that she has low(er) numbers, she has been consistently high. Thanks!
     
  21. Julia & Bandit (GA)

    Julia & Bandit (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    Theresa, are you giving insulin once a day or twice a day?
     
  22. Theresa6

    Theresa6 Member

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    Dec 13, 2011
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought


    Twice daily, 7am and 7pm.
     
  23. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    Then we forgot to go over the right hand side of the spreadsheet, Teresa. :oops: The U after the pmps column is your evening dose amount. If you include the doses given each night, that will fill out the picture for people.
     
  24. carolynandlatte

    carolynandlatte Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    First of all ...WOW! Do you ever have your hands full!!! :eek: Kudos to you for doing all you do.

    I am really glad you got help with the ss. That makes things so much easier. Hopefully you can jump on every day or two and fill it in.

    Regarding the insulin, I have little more to say than what others have already cautioned you about. If it were my cat, I would feel uneasy taking her off insulin with such high numbers. The risk of DKA would not be worth it in my eyes. It could be as soon as you take her off the insulin her BG's will actually go higher. The insulin you were giving may not be enough to bring her down to safer numbers, but may be keeping her from even more dreadful ones.

    When were you planning to stop the insulin? Today? Would you be willing to at least stick with what you are giving for a few more days while you gather information about which way you want to go? What time do you go to bed? Would it be possible for you to get a test in right before that? I know its another thing to do. I suspect Stella is staying pretty high (as you have said) most of the day and night. But there are clues in the testing you have done (YA! GOOD JOB! :mrgreen: ) that show she may be going a little lower than her body is used to and then her liver is freaking out and dumping a load of sugar into her system. Thus you wake up in the a.m. and see her in those dreaded 300s. Quite often when that happens they will stay in higher numbers for up to 3 days!

    Is there anything else we can do to help make this easier for you? Keep asking questions and for clarification until you have gathered all the information you need to make an educated/informed decision. In the meantime, I really do think giving insulin is going to be your best prevention to an emergency or worse.

    Hang in there! You are doing great!!!!
     
  25. Anyname

    Anyname Member

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    Jun 8, 2010
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    The thing is that even though her numbers are high your kitty is probably feeling a little better then she did without insulin. Their behaviour is a good barometer of how the diabetes is affecting them. If she's starving. If she's drinking a lot. If she's pee'ing all the time on 2.5 units twice a day then she needs her dose to be increased according to the protocol.
     
  26. Theresa6

    Theresa6 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2011
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    Thank you everyone. After speaking to my vet and her recommendation to stop temporarily and keep testing, I actually stopped giving Stella insulin. It has been roughly 48 hours, and her testing shows about the same numbers as it did when she was still getting the insulin. I don't generally do any testing after her evening dose mostly because she (and I!) are relaxing watching tv on the couch or reading a book together, so I hate to disturb her. But I can try to do a few.

    I am working really hard to stop the dry food and see if that helps. I know she likes and can tolerate plain tuna, so I have been dribbling tuna in the raw food and the canned to see if I can get her to eat it. So far today she hasn't had any dry food, but she also hasn't eaten much in terms of wet. Maybe two ounces of food total. I am hopeful that the change in diet (if I can accomplish it, I am still waiting for the dreaded barf fest!) will help keep her lower, but if I can't manage the switch I suppose I will have to try to regulate her with the prescription diet.

    I am getting some mixed advice and feel a bit confused. Some people are saying keep her where she was in terms of dose or up to 3u, some are saying go down low in case of rebound. I am not sure what to do at this point! I wanted to take her off for a few days (maybe 3-5) to see what her numbers are doing. If they start spiking higher of course I will do something (start up again? I don't know) but so far there isn't really a change since taking her off, which is what I suspected.

    So what is the recomendation? Do I go up to 3u the vet recommended? Stay at the 2.5u dose? Go back to our starting dose of 2u? Or do I go down to 1u? I am confused :(
     
  27. Anyname

    Anyname Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2010
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    WE don't know what Stella weighs. Is she a big cat or a little cat? Also, be careful about letting her go too long without food. That is something you need to watch out for. Sometimes the owners are so anxious to get their kitties off dry food they try to rush the process along by letting them go without food until they eat the wet food. This is a mistake. Make sure she is eating regularly. It might be that she's not getting enough food that is driving up her numbers. So there! That's something else for you to worry about! ohmygod_smile

    Keep thinking of insulin as a life preserving bodily chemical that her body is too sick to make for herself I would rather err on the side of caution - to give insulin rather than to with hold it - if it's not doing any good then wheres the harm in giving it?
     
  28. carolynandlatte

    carolynandlatte Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    I agree you are getting some conflicting advice. I too would be confused. I do however think the majority are encouraging you to continue with the insulin. Now that you have some information (data/spreadsheet), you may start getting less confusing suggestions on dose. Anyname does have a good point on weight. Do you know your kitty's weight?

    It is great you are working so hard on the wet food transition! Do be mindful that Stella is getting enough food and water, k?

    Since you are choosing NOT to give insulin and Stella is staying in the 300 range I am going to post info, including symptoms you need to watch out for signaling ketones/DKA. You can test for these at home with something called "ketostix" available at most pharmacies for about $15.

    http://felinediabetes.com/ketones.htm

    If you do not have this link regarding information on how to switch from dry to wet, you may find reading it helpful (I know you are a busy bee...but just in case!):
    http://catinfo.org/

    Now that you have a ss set up, you may consider visiting one of the Lantus ISG's. These are people who use lantus daily and post regularly for updates, suggestions, and help. THis link: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1581 should lead you to information on how/when to know if you should increase/decrease your cat's insulin on Lantus.

    Many good wishes to you and Stella
     
  29. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    here's a bit of advice for you - when people give you advice, you can look on the right column by their name and see how many posts they have and when they joined FDMB. it takes a long time to learn feline diabetes and Lantus in particular, in my opinion. we all speak from our own experiences. that doesn't mean that people don't learn and have good information to offer even when newer.

    of the people who have posted here, sienne is by far the most experienced with Lantus. i would take her advice first. after that, you'll have to just listen and do your best to figure out what makes sense to you. this is a site of peers who treat their own diabetic cats, not professionals.

    so - my advice - when we look at spreadsheets, we are looking at trends, not individual numbers. a cat who is well-regulated or on the way to becoming regulated, is eating low carb canned food mostly in the first 4 hours after a shot, getting 2 shots a day 12 hours apart will have a curve. the highest BG numbers will be roughly 12 hours apart at the preshot tests. the lowest BG numbers will be roughly in the middle hours between the shots. cats are different, however, some hit the lowest point as early as 3 hours after each shot. and there are these other things to mess up the numbers - a cat can bounce easily in a short time.

    here's what i see on Stella's ss (and you do have quite a few numbers that tell us some - more than most new folks starting out!)

    on 1/6 stella had a 175 at preshot, followed by 239-379-486 by the end of the day - that is a bounce. what that means is that stella hit that 175 (could've even gone lower during the night before) and her liver let loose the hormones and stored sugars that i referred to in my post above because it thought she was in danger. the cat's liver is equipped to save stella's life and did it's job here! when that happens, it is common to see 3 days of sustained high numbers before the body finally clears out all those hormones and sugars and the numbers come back down.

    on 1/10, the 4th day after that 175, you again see a lower number - at preshot she has a 266. then boom - the next test is 382 and then a 464. then you've taken her off of insulin, so we don't know - her numbers may just stay high from that new release of hormones and stored sugars or they may go down a little. no way to predict.

    there are cats with high dose conditions, and anyname, i suspect you have one, as do i. cats without those special conditions would never need that kind of high dose that you are talking about. the formula for starting a dose on Lantus is

    the thing that is concerning me the most tonight is that you've said your cat hasn't eaten much today. the recipe for diabetic ketoacidosis is illness + insufficient food + insufficient insulin. it is better for your cat to eat anything, including high carb dry food, than to not eat enough. if a cat is eating high carb foods we can increase the insulin to compensate. this is very likely why you haven't seen the BG numbers dropping yet - the high carb food is like a diabetic person eating a candy bar every day and trying to work their insulin around it. it's difficult to do and requires more insulin. however, it is better to do that than to have the cat not eating. i'd go ahead and put out the dry food and let stella eat.

    my niece is severely disabled - 13 years old - and i have worked a lot with special needs kids. i know how intensive it is. i can only imagine adding a diabetic cat into the mix with a full family . . . so let us know what we can do to help you. we'll try to teach you as quickly as possible how to help stella and keep her safe at the same time while not overloading you!

    hugs! :YMHUG:
     
  30. Theresa6

    Theresa6 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2011
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    Thank you to everyone for all the time and effort you are putting in to helping me help Stella :) I do love my cat (all my pets) very much and take my commitment to them very seriously. In my nonexistent free time I volunteer (a couple times a month) at a local shelter working with the dogs. For me its like therapy! I just feel overwhelmed because treatment doesn't seem to be working, and there are no clear answers. I have spent hundreds of dollars in the diagnosis/buying meds phase, and there seems to be no end in sight. It feels demoralising.

    I don't want anyone to worry... today is the first day I tried switching Stella from dry to wet. Its not like days have gone by without her eating, certainly I wouldn't let it go that far! She had nibbled on the wet food 3 times today, and I suspect in all its been a couple ounces (2 to maybe a little more?) and she definitely has fresh water available at all times. If she doesnt eat well for breakfast, I will for sure put some dry under her wet so she has something, and I left a can out for her overnight.
     
  31. Theresa6

    Theresa6 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2011
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    Just a small (*small!) update.

    Stella woke me up this morning and clearly let me know she was hungry, and she ate almost the whole can of fancy feast! This is definitely cause for celebration. She still will NOT eat the raw but I'll take the canned. She did throw up a bit last night but I don't know if it was the canned or the tuna. I'll have to keep an eye.

    I also took her bg this morning and she was at 333. Thats still very high of course, but its one of her lower numbers, and this is without any insulin (which of course is temporary). I am hoping its the lack of dry food thats doing it.
     
  32. Eva & Butters

    Eva & Butters Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2010
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    Good Morning, Theresa ~

    "Just a small (*small!) update." -- That's a great (and big) update! :D Hope you can find a few flavors of Fancy Feast Classic that agree with Stella's sensitive digestive system, Theresa. When our cat Willie was diagnosed with steroid-induced diabetes in 2007, she was 15-years-old and had always eaten mainly dry food with just some canned. To get her to eat more canned food, we'd pour a teaspoon of juice from a can of tuna on her Fancy Feast. That helped a little. When that didn't work, we'd crush a little EVO dry food and put that on top of her Fancy Feast. We weren't able to wean her off the dry entirely (not sure we tried that hard at her age...), but she went into remission anyway still eating some EVO dry.

    Sounds as though you're off to a good start transitioning Stella to canned Fancy Feast. Way to go, Theresa!

    Hang in there,
    Eva
     
  33. Julia & Bandit (GA)

    Julia & Bandit (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    I suspect once the dry food is removed, she will probably only need less insulin to lower her BG, so you might see some action on a lower dose. However keep in mind that the numbers will go up and down in the beginning, from cycle to cycle while the cat's body relearns what a "low" number is. It can take months for this to resolve, so you need to have patience with the treatment.

    If you are able to successfully change the diet, I would start back over at 1u of insulin. Cat's blood sugar levels can drop 100-200 points with a diet change alone.
     
  34. Anyname

    Anyname Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2010
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    Fantastic to hear that Stella is letting you know what she needs. It doesn't have to be raw, a low carb canned is excellent. Sorry that I confused you. Julie helped me understand bounce more than anyone else has so I'm grateful to you for this thread. You are doing really great!
     
  35. Theresa6

    Theresa6 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2011
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    I am feeling really good today :)

    I have had Stella on nothing but canned for 24 hours now, and when I tested her tonight she was at 267! Now I know that is still a very high number, however, this is without any insulin. I was getting numbers between 350-450 (some even higher) WITH the insulin and dry. I am crossing my fingers and hoping that in a few more days her number will be consistently lower and then i can start up Lantus again, and hopefully this time get some results :)
     
  36. MommaOfMuse

    MommaOfMuse Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    Yep sometimes just getting rid of the dry will do the trick...My Maxwell was 485 when dxed, took away his dry food and started him on a low dose of Lantus, a month later he was in remission and has stayed there for over a year now. :D

    And my civies with allergies that was living on prednisone to keep him from clawing his face apart is now allergy free as well.

    Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang
     
  37. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    Theresa:

    I'm glad you are switching her off the dry....that will help and maybe already has to some degree. But, as everyone has said, these are still FD numbers. Sometimes, kitties fed dry food just need a diet change and a bit of insulin for a while.

    I can understand your confusion that her numbers are about the same with insulin as without. We tested Gracie for several days prior to starting her on lantus and we experienced the same things. I would encourage you to look at Gracie's SS in my signature block. When you open it, it is on her levemir SS so click on the tab at the top right that says "Lantus". You will see how we gradually increased her in accordance with the protocol....her numbers were quite high but then started coming down. What is most important is that she ceased having symptoms of FD. She started eating less, putting on weight, sleeping less, drinking and peeing less....all of this even though her numbers were still high.

    Stella "may" be eating the wet food so well because her body is starving for food because she is a diabetic cat. The longer you allow her to stay at numbers like this, the more insulin resistant she may become and the more insulin it will take to get her into normal numbers. It has been mentioned many times, but we cannot express too much how dangerous it is to let her go at these numbers because of the possibility of DKA.

    Considering that you are taking her off the dry food, I also would recommend that you start shooting her again tomorrow morning with 1u twice a day. Lantus is an insulin that works by building an insulin depot under the skin. The depot must be full before the kitty begins using the daily injections. It usually takes 5-7 days to fill this depot with her daily injections before she then starts using the insulin. We do not raise the dose by more than .25u at a time as you can likely miss a "fitting dose" and too much insulin can look like too little. We have a very specific protocol for increasing the dose...allowing her to adjust to each dose before we increase.

    Please do not delay in restarting her insulin. Studies using the tight regulation protocol for lantus/levemir found that 84% of cats started on the protocol within 6 months of diagnosis went into remission, and only 35% for cats that began more than 6 months after diagnosis.

    Good luck and we hope to see Stella back on insulin and coming down into nice, normal numbers.
     
  38. Theresa6

    Theresa6 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2011
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    What range do I want to see her bg be in? Her vet said 70-170 is normal. I just wanted to check.
     
  39. ohbell

    ohbell Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2011
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    Good am to you!!!

    I have sat here and read the whole thread! WOW! What support and suggestions you have received and look at that number!!!!!

    This is going to be a great Friday! :smile:

    One thing that I will add, have you thought of doing a puree on the canned and dropper feeding to help with the transition of foods?

    My Civvie Slappy is almost 16 and she has eaten dry foods all her life ~ right along with the rest. Well, when Bean was dx - 4/11....we all switched but Slappy...she just would not change and Bean is such a sneak, she would steal her food. Then Slappy just stopped eating one day, lots of $$ at the vet, and still dont know why except the thyroid issue.... Longer story short, momma had to have help (from this site) to have someone come teach me to burrito her, puree her food which was script a/d (hi carb) and dropper feed. This worked and she would finally eat from a bowl. This was in July... Now, just this last month, I would puree the chicken f.feast and dropper feed again (without the burrito). She is NOW eating the pureed f.feast in her bowl! MOMMA is soooo happy as now when my Sugar Bean sneaks her foods, it is all ok. I would have bet you my last dollar that this girl would never ever eat wet foods.

    Just thought that dropper feeding might help keep it down, make transition a bit quicker and definately get some food in her.....

    good going momma
     
  40. MommaOfMuse

    MommaOfMuse Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    The range your vet gave you is what it would be on a animal only meter which are calibrated for cat's blood...with a human meter which most of us use the range is between 40-120...human meters read slightly lower than pet only meters, but are more economical and strips can be purchased at most pharmacies, where pet only meters are expensive and the strips can only be purchased at the vet's office which is bad if you need to run out for more strips in the middle of the night on a weekend etc.

    Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang
     
  41. Theresa6

    Theresa6 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2011
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    just wanted to say she tested at 206 after breakfast this morning :)
     
  42. Violet and Garland

    Violet and Garland Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2011
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    hi!! I wanted to tell you Garlands story. My kids are running wild, I only have a quick minute, so it will be a short summary :) But maybe it will help?

    Garland was diagnosed in March 2011. At that time my human kiddos were 10 months old and 2 yrs old. I am a stay at home mom, so our household is on one income. I also have another cat, Connick.

    I learned all about hometesting and what I should feed her. I switched her to all wet, I tested 5 times a day, I was diligent about her shot and shot times. The first month her numbers ALWAYS were between 250-350. I never saw any change what so ever in her numbers. It got to the point I slowly stopped testing as often as I should, because in my mind I thought, why bother, shes always the same. Plus, the strips and wet food were so expensive, I had to buy diapers first and foremost. She was acting fine, so I just figured she was fine. NOTE: at diagosis she was in the 500's, she dropped to 250-300 when I switched her to an all wet diet, BEFORE I started her insulin. So basically, when I started insulin, I saw no change in her numbers.

    I knew she needed an increase, but because I hadnt been writing down all her numbers anymore, there was no real way anyone could know exactly how much insulin she needed. I also stopped being diligent on her food. I let her eat dry. Then I would miss a shot occasionally. Not really on purpose, but because I was so busy with the kids and overwhelmed I just would forget sometimes. In my mind I thought "shes fine, her numbers never change anyways, shot or no shot". One weekend in July I went out of town to visit inlaws, left Garland with my mom. My mom never could give her a shot, she went 4 days without insulin. (Garland is mean and aggressive towards strangers,she wouldnt let my mom near her)

    One random day in August 2011, after always acting spunky and healthy, I noticed she wasnt eating as much and she seemed to not have much energy. It progressed quickly. Within 2 days she couldnt even walk. She spent over a week in the ER. She almost didnt make it through. What had happened was, because I wasnt giving her enough insulin, she developed DKA. And then the DKA caused her to not eat, which caused FHL. She ended up with a feeding tube for over a month.

    This board, the people here and the advice I got here saved her life. I will forever be grateful to every single person here.

    Once I brought her home I started testing and writing it down, diligent about her food and shot times. We kept giving her increases to bring her numbers down. At one point she was up to 5u per shot! Just goes to show low her original dose of 1u was not enough. No wonder i never saw a change, her dose was way too low. Now shes been decreased and is on 3.5u.

    I guess I wanted to tell you her story because Garland's numbers were doing the same thing your little kitty's are now. I wanted to tell you how bad DKA is and how it strikes out of nowhere, progresses quickly and the #1 cause of DKA is not enough insulin. Garland almost died that week in August.

    Diabetic kitties NEED insulin so badly

    Good luck!! I know how hard it can be. Especially with little humans running around :)
     
  43. ohbell

    ohbell Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2011
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    Not familiar w/ lantus but isnt she using what is in her shed right now that could be helping keep those numbers lower? Of course along with no dry?
    :?:
     
  44. carolynandlatte

    carolynandlatte Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    The shed is likely depleted at this point. Stella has not had any insulin for over 2 days.
     
  45. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    In actuality, it can take three days to drain the shed. I would say by tonight her shed should be drained. I also notice her +4 is 252. Even at 206, she is still easily showing diabetic numbers.

    I know it was hard for Violet to share that story.....it was a difficult and emotional time. Garland would also not be alive today if it weren't for Violet because taking care of a kitty with DKA and feline hepatic lipidosis is all-consuming not to mention the care her two small children needed. I was in awe of her every single day and still am. Please take her story to heart, Theresa. She's walked the path and knows how incredibly difficult it is and how close she came to losing Garland.
     
  46. all4stvoyager

    all4stvoyager Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2011
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    Holy smokes those numbers are coming down really nicely on their own! That is so awesome (I am so jealous).

    I don't have any advice, but I just wanted to congratulate you on those numbers!
     
  47. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    really great, great response to going off of dry food - it just shows how much the food matters. great job making the transition!!!

    just wanted to comment more on your question about normal cat numbers - as momma of muse said, 40-120 on a human glucometer is normal. i've tested a couple of non-diabetic cats and they were in the 40's. we expect that after eating the BG will rise, perhaps to the higher end of the normal range within a couple of hours, and then as the pancreas lets insulin out the BG will come back down to that 40-60ish range.

    vets often say a higher range because no one wants a cat to become hypoglycemic. if one isn't home-testing, but instead going to the vet's once a week for checking BG, as i did, you need a higher threshold for safety. don't know what your vet's philosophy is on that - some are pro-home-testing and they aren't as concerned about lower numbers because they know the owner will be testing.

    the number that i've seen in research studies is that dogs experience organ damage with sustained numbers over 200; cats over 250. i've heard people here, who have checked their cats urine for sugar spilling over, say that it can happen in some cats at a lower range - that's anecdotal though. many of our cats are over 250 here and there because cats are simply hard to regulate, but for those following the Rand protocol the goal is to keep a cat's number in the normal range (40-120) as much as possible. doing so allows the pancreas to heal and sputter back to life.

    my goal for punkin is in the 100's, and today he's been over 250 all day - it does happen just because they are hard to get them where you want them! as you know, cats have their own minds! :lol:

    if you do think you want to go back on insulin, marje has given you a great plan for starting back on the lantus. it will likely take the 5-7 days before you see a lot of action, but you would want to keep testing just to be safe. kitties seem to take great pleasure at sneaking surprises in on us!

    we all know how incredibly stressful the start of the sugar dance is. we're here to help make it as easy as possible for you! the passion you're hearing is all about caring - because we are farther along in the dance than you are and we want to help you keep your little one safe!

    :YMHUG:
     
  48. Theresa6

    Theresa6 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2011
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    Great news!

    Her BG this morning, after breakfast, was 146!!!

    Still on the high end, but my lowest number ever and still no insulin. Today is day 4 insulin and dry food free. I am of course still testing 3 times daily and watching her very carefully, but I want to give her diet a real chance to work before reintroducing insulin, so I am going to give her more time. Her numbers have done nothing but steadily drop, and I want to see about where they plateau before starting to administer insulin again.

    Thank you to everyone who has offered help, suggestions, and shared their personal stories! I definitely plan to keep updating everyone and testing Stella regularly :)
     
  49. Mystery

    Mystery Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2011
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    Wow, what a super great response to a diet change! Isn't it just the best when you realized that kitty is feeling better? With or without insulin, just knowing they are making progress is the best feeling in the world.

    I've often wondered if my Beauregard would have gone OTJ with just a diet change - he was on insulin for a very short time, and as soon as the dry was completely removed his #s became normal within a couple of weeks. I'm thankful that we had the insulin though, because his diet change occurred over several weeks and there was no recurrence of the terrible digestive issues he's had in the past. I had anticipated a pretty bad reaction, but it went very well. For a lucky few, diet change seems to make all the difference in the world.

    Keep up the great work! Hopefully you and your kitty are on the road to not needing insulin, but even if he does still need it, it's manageable!
     
  50. Theresa6

    Theresa6 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2011
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    What is the most 'bang for my buck' testing time(s)?

    I cannot keep up testing 3x per day. At .50 per strip thats an extra $45 per month! When factoring the cost of insulin, syringes, and her thyroid medication I have gone well over my monthly budget for her medical expenses.

    So, I am thinking I can test 1 maybe 2 times per day. She is currently still not on insulin and I have a new package of test strips on order. Our plan is to have her thyroid levels rechecked in about a week and a half and if they look to be under control then go forward and start her on insulin again. What time of day is best to test, if you can only do one possibly two?
     
  51. Jen & Squeak

    Jen & Squeak Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    test as you can. Some people test a ton, some people a little, it comes down to personal finances, time, etc. You have a lot more leeway while she isn't on insulin, so once a day is fine.

    I'm really impressed with how low she's come just with the food change...I really wouldn't have expected this and was thinking that you needed to be giving insulin before but this has been a great 'experiment'. I agree with others though that she's looking like she needs insulin, but likely only a 'drop' or two....won't hurt though to wait a day or so and see how things continue. How's she feeling and looking these days, and what does your vet say?

    Jen
     
  52. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    when you're not giving insulin there's absolutely no reason to test more than you can afford. i'd do once a day, maybe even skip a day. best time? i'm not sure, but i'm thinking of how doctors want to see fasting blood glucose tests to see a baseline. given that, i'd probably choose first thing in the morning before eating so you're seeing an accurate, non-food-influenced number.

    also, if you end up giving insulin, it really will save you a ton of $$ to order the strips online.

    edited to add - i missed in your last post but now see that you are ordering the strips online. hocks.com and American Diabetes Wholesale are 2 that are pretty good.

    when i look at stella's spreadsheet, although the numbers are sure better than they were, you still have all diabetic cat numbers. nothing in there is what a non-diabetic cat would have. i would encourage you to not delay too long before restarting the insulin. there is a "start low go slow" protocol that is simple to follow and very good for cats newly diagnosed. that would have stella re-starting at about 1/2 unit (0.5units) in a u-100 syringe on lantus. would you like the information on that?
     
  53. Theresa6

    Theresa6 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2011
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    one of the concerns my vet had was that Stella might not be responding appropriately to insulin because of what is going on with her thyroid. We came to the agreement that Stella would come back in for thyroid levels in about a week and a half and then if her levels looked good we would start her back up on the insulin. But, yes, I would love the lantus low/slow protocol! Doesn't hurt to be prepared when I go back in.

    Truth be told, I am really glad I took her off insulin when I switched her food. If I hadn't, I would never have known what was bringing down her numbers, the insulin or the food. Now I know 100% its the food and when I do start her back up on insulin, I will see true changes based on the medication that are not food induced.

    In terms of her behavior, she seems to be acting like her self. Her coat is not as nice looking as I would like, but she does have a good appetite (not ravenous) and is eating about 6-8 oz of wet food a day and I have been very conservative with the carb number I am feeding her not going above 4. Her urine output seems to have regulated some, and she is not flooding the box like she used to. Also, the wood pellets have been a lifesaver for that! I just wish I would have switched sooner. She is still drinking more than she used to before her diagnosis, but better than she was a few weeks ago. Now she'll finish 3/4 to 1 bowl of water daily where it was almost 3 for a while.

    Stella will have to miss a couple of days testing since I ran out of strips yesterday, and hopefully the new ones will be here soon. But i do want to continue to monitor what her BG is doing with just the diet change and then again when we start back up on insulin. The home testing has been incredibly valuable but it is also incredibly costly. I just wish there was a way to get strips for really cheap! I found my last batch on ebay.
     
  54. Blue

    Blue Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    I think people often test at normal shot times, just to see where the number is sitting.
    There's no real need to test alot as the cat can't hypo on no insulin, so you are just looking to see how high the cat is going.

    Another test you can do, if you like, is a food test..... test before a meal, then feed. Test again after an hour or so.
    It will give you an idea how things are going.
     
  55. Julia & Bandit (GA)

    Julia & Bandit (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    If she's not on insulin, it's not necessary to test 3 times a day. I would get one fasting test (before you feed in the AM or PM) and move the other test around --like get a +2 one day, a +4 the next day, and so on.

    Theresa, what meter do you have? Perhaps there is a less expensive option for you. Once she starts back on insulin, you will need to go back to testing 3 times a day to get an adequate picture of how the insulin is working in order to make dose adjustments. If the cost of the strips is your only concern, I'm sure we have some suggestions to help you out with those.

    Remember to factor in the money you WON'T be spending on vet testing into your budget. Home testing is far cheaper than taking her in for blood testing at the vet.
     
  56. Theresa6

    Theresa6 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2011
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    I have the bayer contour test meter.

    I understand about the 'vet savings' issue, but honestly, I wouldn't be able to afford constant vet testing either! $100 per month commitment for the rest of my cat's (hopefully long) life is too much... when your factoring in the cost of insulin, syringes, home testing, her thyroid medication, and then of course home testing. I love my pets and take their health care very serious (obviously) but my human children do come first, and with my oldest daughters special needs we are already incurring a lot of extra medical expenses.

    I am just trying to make Stella's healthcare sustainable long term.
     
  57. Julia & Bandit (GA)

    Julia & Bandit (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    Here you go Theresa:

    I would purchase this meter from American Diabetes Wholesale: http://www.americandiabeteswholesal...nitoring-kit-black_4034.htm?source=SiteSearch

    You're getting the meter for free, +200 strips for $45.00, which is about 22 cents a strip--half of what you're paying now. The Arkray GlucoCard is the generic version of the Relion Confirm that you get at walmart.

    After that, if you order your strips from American Diabetes Wholesale they are 250 for $46--about 18 cents a strip: http://www.americandiabeteswholesal...-vital-test-strips_4027.htm?source=SiteSearch

    If you're super drained right now and you need some time to save up the money to get the better price on the bigger lot of strips, you can also buy them individually on Amazon.

    Here's the meter +50 strips for $23 (free shipping): http://www.amazon.com/Arkray-GlucoC...ef=sr_1_3?s=hpc&ie=UTF8&qid=1327078831&sr=1-3

    And here's the strips alone, 50 for $16 (32 cents a strip including shipping): http://www.amazon.com/Arkray-GlucoC...ef=sr_1_1?s=hpc&ie=UTF8&qid=1327078831&sr=1-1

    It also looks like the strips sell on Ebay for about the same price as Amazon, 50 for $15: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trk...&_sticky=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_sop=15&_sc=1

    If you can afford to test twice a day with the contour, then getting this meter should up the test to 4 or 5 times a day for the same price. Is that doable for you?
     
  58. Julia & Bandit (GA)

    Julia & Bandit (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    There are also ways to save on insulin and syringes--I got my syringes at walmart and they are only about $13 a box. For insulin, have your vet write you a prescription for the Lantus pens, because there is less waste. They come in packs of 5, 3ml pens, which serve as mini vials. Because of the smaller size, there's practically no waste. 1 pack of pens will last you at least 6 months, more likely a year or more. And if you order them from Canada, it's nearly half the price ($125-$150). Here's a list that a member made for Canadian Pharmacies: https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1FCnrPxpYD02Gp5hWtEIbhLXm0VOyaZlAT_qeCjlx-Js
     
  59. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    julia, that is all great information! thanks for providing it - i'm making notes for myself as well.

    when you get to the point of going back on insulin, just holler and we can help you with the dosing. the main thing is to start with a low dose and once started, hold for several days, perhaps a week or so, so you can see what it does. lantus works in a cumulative way, so the first several days are not showing you a "true" picture yet of what the dose will do.
     
  60. Theresa6

    Theresa6 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2011
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    Julia, thank you for your those links! They were incredibly helpful. I just purchased a box of 50 strips for my current contour, so when I start running lower on those I can order the new meter and strips you linked to, it'll give me some time to save up for it.

    Does the testing machine you linked to work the same as the contour I have now? Is it reliable and easy to use? Is there anything I need to know about it? I just want to make sure :) Thank you again!
     
  61. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    no, the links that julia gave you are for a completely different meter and strips. they aren't interchangeable with the contour that you are using now. each glucometer has their own strips. a lot of people keep an old meter as a back-up in case they have one break or the batteries go out.

    buying the new meter and its strips will be cheaper in the long run (not very far our long run) that continuing to buy strips for the contour.
     
  62. Theresa6

    Theresa6 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2011
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    Yes, I did understand that, sorry if it wasn't clear from my post! What I was asking is how the new meter works compared to the one I have now, if it is accurate and reliable, etc. Thanks!
     
  63. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    yes, the numbers should be comparable. i think that meter is considered fine as far as accuracy and reliability goes. the non-generic is the Relion Confirm and i think it's rated fine. we all use different ones.

    by law, meters are allowed to have a 20% variance. that means that if the cat's BG is 100, the "accurate" range could be 80-120. if the BG is 300, the range could be 240-360. kinda crazy, huh? but if the cat is at 50, where the numbers are the very most important, the range then is 40-60, so it's a much tighter range at the lower numbers.
     
  64. Julia & Bandit (GA)

    Julia & Bandit (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Re: going off insulin for a while, need opinions and thought

    Sorry to get back to you so late, Theresa--I had a kitty emergency with Bandit this weekend.

    The meter I gave you the links for is the generic version of the Relion Confirm at Walmart--it's the exact same meter, just without the Relion brand name. A ton of people here use it. Right now a friend of mine uses it for her diabetic cat, and she likes it a lot. All meters will have some variances--the important thing is that you use the same meter for testing consistently--because of the +/- 20% variance allowed between meters, you'll drive yourself crazy trying to use both the Contour and the Arkray at the same time to test. So once you get the Arkray, stick with it unless you have a meter emergency and need your backup.
     
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