? Griff ups and downs

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by primalkitty, Jul 1, 2017.

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  1. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    Hey all,

    Griff was in the yellow and now showing some pinks. Wasn't sure if it is time to change the dosage. I can tell he is feeling better, he is soliciting more affection and playing with his toys!!!:)
     
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  2. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I think you can guess what we're going to say ;) : there's not enough mid cycle data to know what he's doing on this dose. If I had to go out on a limb, I'd say the dose has to go up to 3.75 u. I suggest you do that for several cycles then do a complete curve on Sunday or Monday.
     
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  3. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    Yes, I kinda figured ;) I got a +3 362. I will try a +5, too.

    Thanks!
     
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  4. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Don't let that stop you from asking though! We want to help. :)
     
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  5. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

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    Definitely never feel you shouldn't or can't ask us ;)
     
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  6. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    Of course I will, I a-purr-ciate all your help!!! +5 323
     
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  7. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    tonite was 384. Interesting that his numbers are staying pretty steady. Is that good news? Upped dose to 3.75 tonite.
     
  8. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Great job getting some mid-cycle tests!!! On prozinc, you actually want the numbers to go down in the middle and up at the ends - so if you graphed them, they would look like a smile. Here's an example:
    upload_2017-7-2_5-6-38.png

    When you have a cycle like you had yesterday morning where the numbers stay pretty flat, it can mean two different things:
    1. If the kitty drops low in the middle of a cycle, then in the cycles after that, they will stay in higher flatter numbers. We usually call that process of going low and then getting stuck high as a bounce.
    2. The kitty isn't getting enough insulin yet.

    The only way to tell the difference between the two is to keep getting the mid-cycle numbers. If it's part of a bounce (option #1), then in a few cycles, you'll see another low number in the middle. If it's option #2, then the cycles will just stay flat day after day. You can usually tell within six cycles (3 days) which option it is.
     
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  9. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    Ah, hence the term "curve". Sorry, probably could have figured that out :facepalm: +3 249
     
  10. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    Wow, numbers all over the place! Bouncing?
    Was only able to get a +5 today. We were checking out hay to buy.
     
  11. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm...not sure. That black isn't far off from the red you got last night. He did get a nice drop today though! Let's see where he goes tonight.
     
  12. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    Will do. He didn't get into anything "naughty". And, he was acting like he felt great and was flingin' his favorite toy around.
     
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  13. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    Going flat again. 343, 341, 339. Couldn't do any mid cycles, we were unloading hay.....arrgggg
     
  14. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

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    Probably bouncing from the yellow yesterday from black PS. Hang in there :bighug:
     
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  15. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    t'anks!!!!
     
  16. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    That black one is pretty high. I'm curious what's going on with the nighttime cycle. AM and PM cycles can look quite different for some cats. If there is anyway you can get some before bed tests, or grab one during the night if you wake up for something, it would be good to get a peek at what's going on there. The AMPS on 7/3 might have just been one of those things, but it also might be hinting at some nighttime lower numbers.
     
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  17. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    I will get a before bedtime.

    411 this a.m. and 487 +9.
     
  18. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    489 PM test :arghh:
     
  19. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    before bed 461. 2 1/2 hours after testing, 2 hours after dinner.
     
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  20. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Congrats on those extra tests! Very helpful. Time to try 4 u I think.
     
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  21. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    Thank you!
     
  22. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    Raised to 4 u. Trying to get some mid cycle readings. Mostly pink and yellows.
     
  23. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Keep on keeping on. Try 4.25 u tomorrow AM.
     
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  24. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    You'll get there!!! Just got keep pushing.
     
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  25. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    Thank you again!
     
  26. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

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    Just keep swimming, just keep swimming :D
     
  27. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    Okay, last night 331. This morning 428 and tonite 510! :confused:
     
  28. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Slow and steady wins the race! You'll get there...
     
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  29. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes it's good to review the whole SS. Here's what I see: you had better PSs when the dose was around 0.5 u to 1.0 u but had little to no data in the middle of the cycles. As you've raised the dose carefully the PSs have gone up and there are higher bounce numbers. It's great that you're getting more mid cycle data but a test every evening would help.

    It's quite possible that the lack of data early on dose changes AM to PM muddied the picture and made it look like his dose needed to go up. Let's see what the other folks think: @Yong @Rachel @Djamila @StephG
    I'm sorry if I'm confusing you but I think it's important to revisit the dosing plan when you don't seem to be getting where you want to go. I might be totally wrong and that's why I'd like the others to look at your SS.
     
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  30. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    I'm inclined to think that the lower numbers earlier on and the higher numbers now are more the result of time passing. Griff has been on insulin since February with very little to indicate that he's getting the right dose yet. That's kind of a long time to be hanging out in high numbers. But it's also possible that the bouncing we're seeing is indicating that he's getting closer to an effective dose and so he's getting more reactive.

    One big question is that we have no data in the PM cycle to tell us if he's dropping lower at night. If you look at @Jen and Alfie's spreadsheet, we see really active PM cycles, and then high flats during the day. It's possible something like that is happening here too - we're getting closer to a good dose, so the night cycles are getting active later on, and causing the current high flats during the day, and those icky black numbers.

    Most of us need more sleep than Jen seems to though ;). I love the data she has, but I honestly couldn't stay up that late myself on a regular basis! At some point, those lower numbers should start popping up during the AM cycle. So I would say to keep on with the six cycle increases, and get data whenever you can since there is still the possibility that we've just had some bad luck with the current data set and somehow managed to only catch the high numbers and miss the low ones! And especially if you or anyone in the house could grab an occasional middle of the night test, that could be really helpful.
     
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  31. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for this Djamila! Good thinking. I was wondering whether I was seeing something significant or not. :)
     
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  32. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Djamila. I think more tests when you can and continuing the increases is a good plan. One question I do have. How old is your current bottle of insulin?
     
  33. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    I just refilled a couple of weeks ago.

    I keep having little "freak outs" when I see big numbers.:eek: Griff still seems to feel better as he is more affectionate and playing with toys, so that makes me feel better.

    Wow, @Jen and Alfie really is getting a lot of tests! I will try to get one or 2 at night.

    Well, gotta go do the morning test and feed the kitties. Miss Maya kitty is letting me know that I am late!!!!

    Thank you everyone!!!!
     
  34. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    326 this morning
     
  35. Jen and Alfie

    Jen and Alfie Member

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    Ha, well I'm very lucky that hubby stays up to do the late shift most of the time and I do the early starts in the morning.

    Plus, green numbers are still freaking me out so on those nights hubby has been up and down stairs giving me numbers every hour! I wouldn't be awake otherwise! I'm normally tucked up in bed by +4! :)
     
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  36. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Ah-ha! That's the trick! Two people testing! I was thinking you just had some magical superpower or something that allowed you to go without sleep! :D
     
  37. Jen and Alfie

    Jen and Alfie Member

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    I wish! I couldn't possibly do lates and earlies! And I'm keen to try and push him into better numbers asap so testing a lot to get as much data as possible. I dream of him being regulated enough one day to just do two or three tests a day! :cat:
     
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  38. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

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    Part of me really thinks a good dose was around the 2.0U :bookworm: but can't say for sure, obviously. The other part agrees with Djamila for what's going on in his PM cycles
    While doing the sugar dance, this is also very important :cat:
     
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  39. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Interesting! What are you seeing that's making you think that?
     
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  40. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

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    Mostly just based on the PS patterns on 2.0 and 2.5U and I could be wrong. I think he bounced all through 2.25U dose :rolleyes:. I also wonder what 2.75U would have looked like :bookworm:
     
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  41. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    566 tonite
     
  42. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

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    Have you been able to test for ketones yet? I'm really wondering if the dose is too high :bookworm:
     
  43. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    I did a couple of weeks ago. It was negative. It is hard to get him since 6 out of the 7 kitties use the same dang litterbox when there are 8 about the house.
     
  44. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

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    lol go figure :smuggrin:.
     
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  45. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    Last time I had to put a strip up next to Griffy's "stuff" after a litterbox visit. He wasn't too thrilled about it but I can try again :D
     
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  46. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    They always have a favorite box don't they???
     
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  47. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I'm still wondering if the dose is too high. @Yong? @Djamila ?
     
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  48. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    At this point we're really all just guessing. The last time we have a +6 was three weeks ago, and there isn't enough data to even guess at when Griff is hitting nadir. So he could be bottoming out at some point and we just aren't seeing it. My gut is still going the other way, but again, it's purely a guess. I certainly wouldn't do another dose increase until we get a curve or at least something in the +4 to +6 range for a couple of days in a row to get a better idea of what's going on.
     
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  49. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

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    That was my wonder too :bookworm:
     
  50. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    I did get a bedtime and a 3 a.m.. reading. Today was tough, we are hauling hay and not here much. I have noted the +4 and +6 time. I will do my best to get those readings. Sorry things are so sporadic :(
     
  51. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Do what you can and we'll have a look. The rest of life gets in the way sometimes. ;)
     
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  52. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Do you live in the Palouse?
     
  53. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    No, we are NW of Spokane about 40 miles.
     
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  54. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    I've been starting to think about moving east. It's just so crazy crowded over here on the west side of the state! But y'all get those crazy hot summers and freezing winters. Might be worth it to have a bit more breathing room though. Plus, it's so beautiful over there!
     
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  55. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    295 this morning and 179 +4 Yay, a new color!!!!:D
     
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  56. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    Our new neighbors just moved here from the east side. Property prices are a lot cheaper and, yes, it is beautiful! And, yes hot summers, but the winters have been pretty mild. Well, coming from CO and WI, the winters around here are nuthin'!!!
     
  57. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I can well imagine, she says from Ottawa, Canada - second coldest national capital in the world after Moscow. ;)
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2017
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  58. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

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    Well Griff, you look good in blue :cool:
     
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  59. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Yeah for blue!!! :cool::cool::cool:
     
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  60. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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  61. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    It's okay. He's just bouncing. He's probably not all that used to blues. Although they may have had something to do with those blacks the other day, too. Hang in there. He'll settle down.
     
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  62. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

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    Yup, just getting his excitement out by bouncing on the trampoline :bighug:
     
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  63. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    Hah hah, good visual :cat: I will hang in there!!!
     
  64. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    586 +12. So I looked around on the site to find something about "bouncing" as I really don't know what that means. Is there a post or something I can read?
     
  65. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I wrote this for someone else quite a while ago. Maybe it'll help:

    Here's how it works:
    1. BG goes low OR lower than usual OR drops too quickly.
    2. Kitty's body panics and thinks there's danger (OMG! My BG is too low!).
    3. Complex physiologic processes take glycogen stored in the liver (I think of it as "bounce fuel"), convert it to glucose and dump it into the bloodstream to counteract the perceived dangerously low BG.
    4. These processes go into overdrive in kitties who are bounce prone and keep the BG propped up varying lengths of time (AKA bouncing).
    5. Bounce prone kitty repeats this until his body learns that healthy low numbers are safe. Some kitties are slow learners.
    6. Too high a dose of insulin can keep them bouncing over and over until the " bounce fuel" runs out and they crash - ie., have a hypo episode. That's why we worry so much about kitties that have had too high a starting dose prescribed by the vet and the owner isn't home testing.
    7. Many vets have little/no understanding of the bouncing phenomenon.
     
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  66. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Oops! I'm sorry! Kris has the best explanation of it, so I'm glad she posted already!
     
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  67. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    Thank you thank you!!! So, anything I can tell my "slow learner"???? :p
     
  68. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I've tried teaching my slow learner that he doesn't have to do that but so far it hasn't worked. :confused:
     
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  69. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Starting to get wonky numbers may actually be a good sign. It sometimes indicates that you're getting closer to a dose that will bring some good insulin responses. I'm going to make a stab in the dark here and guess that his nadir is around +5 or +6, so anytime you can grab a test in that range it might help catch some more of those blues. Any chance your weekend would let you run at least a mini curve? There are a few options: one is to test every two hours for the whole cycle. That's what is traditionally meant by a curve. Other people do a +3, +6, +9 test. You can also just curve around the most likely nadir, so start testing at +4, then +5, +6, etc. until you start to see a rising number. That version gives you some time earlier and later in the day when you aren't tied to the house, and still has a high chance of capturing what you need. I find the side-by-side tests to be really helpful in finding the nadir. It does move around sometimes, but it at least gives you an idea of the time you're most likely to catch the lowest number.
     
  70. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    I can't do to much of a curve this weekend because we are doing tours, hauling hay and buckin' bales. I did just get a +5 and got a blue! 198 I will try to get a couple more after our next tour slot and between hauling and unloading.

    Thank you!!!
     
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  71. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Nice blues. There's a lot of room to drop so I suggest you go to 4.5 u tomorrow AM.
     
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  72. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    Okay, will do. +7 328

    Thanks!!!
     
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  73. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    WOOT WOOT!!!! My G'iffy is back :joyful: Today he came down into my workshop for the first time since December and did his usual roll around on the sewing machine and getting into the 'nip. It used to be "our thing" and I have missed it so much! His numbers are still a work in progress, but he is definitely feeling better.

    :bighug: to all of you for helping to bring him back!!!!
     

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  74. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    How cute! I'm glad he's feeling better!

    Are you thinking of increasing soon? Looks like he still has room to go down.
     
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  75. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

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    That's great! :joyful: I definitely remember the first time Maury did one of "our things" a few months into insulin therapy. Makes us sooo happy[​IMG]!
    I think you might try the 4.75U next too, in a day or two. It looks like he may still be bouncing from those blues on 4.5U :bookworm: but like Rachel said, he still has a good amount to safely give lower blues :cool:
     
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  76. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    I got a 539 this morning. Should I go ahead and increase to 4.75?
     
  77. sherrib

    sherrib Member

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    Following along
     
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  78. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

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    Jessie, I'd hold the 4.5U since it may have taken him into blues last night and we don't want to increase on a bounce. We'll see what the others think too ;)
     
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  79. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Maybe it's because of the number of kitties who have come down with DKA in the past couple of weeks, but I would go ahead with the increase and try to get those numbers down. Feeling nervous about kitties with high numbers right now.
     
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  80. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    That black is out of nowhere huh? Any chance of a mid cycle number tonight? I tend to be on the side of increasing because you've gotten a couple mid cycles lately and they've been flat...but it COULD be from a bounce cycle. Lol basically I'm on both sides!!

    Okay, I'll just tell you what I'd do if it was me. I'd get a mid cycle tonight if I could (if you can't, I get it). I think I might increase tomorrow though because as Djamila says, you don't want to hang in the high numbers for too long...and you have been getting some pink mid cycles lately. That's just MY thoughts though...I see what Yong means about not increasing on a bounce cycle, but maybe an increase tomorrow AM would help give time to clear it if it WAS a bounce....

    Either way, do you test for ketones?
     
  81. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    I tested for ketones a couple days ago, negative.

    I can do a before bedtime which will be a +2 and then try for one through the night.

    Oh, it is time for his pre-shot/feed test. I will go do that right now and post in a few.
     
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  82. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    411 tonite. I was gone all day so couldn't get any other tests during the day.
     
  83. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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  84. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I suggest moving up to 4.75 u. The more mid cycle/before bed tests you can get, the better (yeah, I know - broken record!) but I'm basing this on the blues he had on 4.25 u. At this point, I wouldn't stay more than 3 days on an ineffective dose. It can contribute to insulin resistance - ie., they get "stuck".
     
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  85. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    Okie dokie, I will raise today. +6 was 353

    Thank you!
     
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  86. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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  87. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    +4.5 272
     
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  88. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    +12 477
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2017
  89. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Get a couple of extra tests at this dose today. I think it'll be time for 5 u tomorrow AM but more data would be helpful. :)
     
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  90. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    521 this morning. I will get a few more tests today.

    Thanks!
     
  91. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    +5 311
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
  92. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    PM 339. I will get a test tonite before bedtime.

    Do you think I should raise the dose to 5 tomorrow?
     
  93. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    I think I would. We'd like to get him down and I think you just need to keep moving up to hopefully break through any resistance that's going on.
     
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  94. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

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    I think you're OK to move to 5.0U too, Jessie :). Even with the blues he's hit back at 4.25U, there's still quite a safety net for him to get lower :cat:
     
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  95. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

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    Jan 28, 2017
    Upped to 5 units. This a.m. 567, + 4.5 296
     
  96. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Ignore the black and keep on. :)
     
    primalkitty likes this.
  97. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2017
    Heh, heh love it!
     
  98. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2017
    Hello all,
    I am going out of town for a day 1/2, so hubby will be doing the insulin. He doesn't do testing, so hoping all goes well. Griff is doing well. I noticed he isn't as water obsessed and isn't peeing as much. I am guessing that means we are getting closer to a good dose. His numbers are not showing much difference.

    Also, was gone all day yesterday so couldn't get any mid-cycle readings.
     
  99. primalkitty

    primalkitty Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2017
    Is it time to raise again or???
     
  100. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Yes, I'd try 5.25 u tonight or tomorrow AM.
     
    Rachel and primalkitty like this.
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