HELP! Squamee going low

Got too aggressive. Shot 1.1 this morning with AMPS of 167. Now at +3 she is 45. Gave some 19 carb food. Is that enough carb? I will keep testing.

 

yeah that should be enough carbs in that food. 45 to me isn't really panic time just yet so i'd probably test again in 30 minutes and go from there.

 

except for the fact that squamee has a lot of isulin in him..

 

Just saw the 52 - good stuff so far. You can post in here and I'll get the email too.

 

thank you gator for the pm wake up call...

 

Please don't say anything more to scare me. I am more than scared enough. I did not shoot the numbers, and I don't know what I was thinking.

 

I'm saving my input until we are all smiles again. ;-)

You are handling this fine - it's at least giving *me* confidence. :smile: I'm sorry you have the additional worry today.

 

You're home with squamee, and testing regularly with all the high carb food you need- I'm sure you'll do great at pulling her through this! Positive thoughts!

 

+4 53

 

I've got to go work away from the computer for likely a few hours. I'm PMing you my cell phone just in case. Do not hesitate to post elsewhere if you feel you need to.

 

Don't be too hard on yourself. I've done that exact same thing on more than one occasion.

You are handling everything just fine, except maybe your nerves, take a slow deep breath in through your nose and blow out through your mouth.

You have all the tools you need to keep her safe today, you're testing, have HC food on hand and will be home to do it.

We'll be here with you.

((((Judy))))

 

i'm sorry judy. you are doing great. i don't know what Iwas thinking (reost in pzi)

 

+4.5 49 She ate a small amount just now. edited to 49.

 

I might hit her with the high carb again since you are at only +4.5 and you didn't get that big of a response.

 

Good - high carb?

 

you're doing fine. as was said, the key is to keep your wits about you so remember to breathe and just know that you're not alone.

 

i'm surprised she did'nt get a bigger response from that 19 carb myself. but it is probably just working against the insulin.

 

I think I am going nuts---too much with these different postings. Will just stick with this thread. I will go look at food lists, but does anyone know what is high carb? I will run out to the store between tests.

 

nutro max cat lite chicken and lamb is 26 carbs but honestly i think the 19 carb is good. don't fill him up...let him lick the gravy. i think that holds most of the carbs.

 

nine live chicken and cheese has 23 cARBS

 

Thanks for the info. I have various FF with gravy, but I don't know the carb count on that. I just added some of that gravy to the 19 carb one she was eating and she lapped it up.

 

IMHO the best is something that they will eat - so a flavor that is relatively higher in carbs that they will totally love. It won't do any good if they won't eat it.

My go to was Science Diet 7+ Chicken that was 22% carbs [his prior "death diet" for a number of months that he loved].

 

+5 53

 

good. in theory, and looking at your spreadsheet, you should start tinkering out here in the next hour or so. i'd perhaps feed another small spoon of what you've been feeding if you're uncomfortable with the 50's and test again in 1/2 an hour or so.

 

That's good, you've gotten 2 like numbers. Prozinc tends to drop, drop a little more then coast for a few hours.

The food you been giving her isn't zooming her up but seems to be keeping her steady.

Good job.

Waiting for next update.

 

Don't be so tough on yourself.

We have all made mistakes. Heck, I have made my fair share.

Hang in there, just keep checking her... you will be fine.

 

+5.5 70 Whew!!! Thank you all soooo much! I feel much better, and Rob, it helped a lot when you said you have done the same. Can you imagine if I had been following vet's orders? (On Thursday, because of a fructosamine test that said poorly regulated, he told me to shoot 1.5 and stay with that). Where would I be without this site and all of you? I do believe Squamee would be long gone!

Edit--maybe the ff with gravy is a lot higher than 19 carbs? that's what I added before she went up.

 

awesome!

i'd probably get one more test in half an hour or so just to make sure stays up and if it is up still, i'd say you can have a good drink or something

 

Great news! I'm glad your both here with us.

I don't think that gravy was very high carb or she would have zoomed up faster and higher. I once brought Harley up by giving him 8% carb gravy, he came up slowely just like Squamee is and didn't get much of a bounce. So fingers crossed she will do the same.

I agree with Cindy, keep testing once in a while to make sure she stays up.

You've both earned a treat for tonight. A tunarita for Squamee and a glass of wine and chocolate for you.

 

You set a good example for me to learn from! You did great pulling squamee through!

 

+6 68. She ate some more of the FF gravy.
And I got the best news! I have been struggling mightily to get her to take the phenobarbital pills--gave up on the gabapentin awhile ago. She would not eat the beef flavored liquid, and gives me a hard time with the pill pockets. For a week or so she had been happily taking the pill in a pocket rolled in fortiflora, and then she stopped. She has been less enthusiastically taking it rolled in fortiflora and parmesan cheese--but taking it. And I had been giving 15 mg am and 7.5 mg pm (instead of 7.5 TID--to make one less pill time) but I have gone back to TID because 2x she vomited up the pill and I decided giving half the pill might be easier for her to get down. So, if you can follow this, you realize that pill time is a horror for both of us. Well, I just found out that my local compounding pharmacy can give me the phenobarbital in a transdermal patch!!! I am seeing the vet tomorrow and ask him to prescribe it. Keepings paws crossed there is no problem with that. ( I had checked out the possibility of a patch for the gabapentin and was told they don't do it because it doesn't absorb well---and then never thought to ask about the phenobarbital)

 

that's pretty much the same number so if this were me, i'd still test at least one more time and then see what's needed. whether you do it in 30 minutes or an hour, i'll leave up to you

great news on the patch too!

 

My guess is that she's going to hover in these numbers until +8 or so, keep doing what your doing.

Great news on the patch, much less stressful for you both. I havn't been keeping up to speed very well lately, or maybe I missed it but, no luck on an injectable?

 

Just checking in. Good to see things are looking better. Thank you, thank you Cindy and Robin for keeping tabs on thing and pitching in. :smile: I wouldn't be surprised if she coasts for an extended period tonight. She's done that before. 68 is just fine.

 

+7 62 I gave her some more ff gravy. will test again.

 

Ok guys, I will keep checking, but I am breathing again. Gator, I think I can stand hearing your analysis now (or whenever you have time). And what about shooting tonight if she goes above 200?


edit---the pharmacy said they did not make an injectable and suggested the transdermal.

 

hmmmmmm, looks like you're gonna have to keep testing you're not in danger by any means if she stays in this area but we just need to make sure she doesn't drop too much. i wouldn't expect her to given the +hour but better to be safe

i think we can say now that clearly that ff with gravy is not high carb. is this the new gravy lovers ff? or one of the older ff that just has more of a gravy to it? i got some here while back of the new gravy lovers (good deal on it so i couldn't say no) and have been feeding it to the stray cats. but if it's not high carb i wonder if Mousie could have it from time to time

 

I need to eat and get my thoughts together. I do 100% plan on giving my input before shot time tonight - normal shot time would be about 8p? Plus I kind of want to see where things go. And I have a bunch of stuff goings on right now. :smile:

 

This was FF Gravy Lovers Beef Feast in roasted beef flavor gravy. You say it is not high carb--if it were, how would you know? What numbers would you expect to see?

 

Gator,
+12 shot time would be 8pm (4.5 hours from now), but assuming all is ok, I will be out from about 7:30 to9:30. I figure tonight is not a night I should have to worry about shooting late!

 

if a food is high carb, on the initial feeding of it, i would have expected to see numbers at least 20-30 points higher within the first half hour or so. in a cat that is super carb sensitive, even more. but it looks like it took Squamee about 3 hours or so to go only that high.

then, how many times has she gotten it? she's had enough that to be honest, i'd expect to see triple digit numbers by now sooooooooooo, either it's not high carb orrrrrr, she is carb resistant

and actually, now that i'm looking back at things, which food did you feed that you called the 19 carb stuff? that might tell us something because if it is indeed a 19 carb food, i would have expected it alone to have raised her up higher than she went, thus no need for the gravy off the ff gravy lovers. hmmmmmm.

yeah she had a fair chunk of insulin on the preshot number you had but a 19 carb should have shot her up, then she would have possibly teetertottered as the insulin battled the food but you've had none of that.

 

not necessariy teeter tottered. i can imagine with that dose on that low of a number with a potentially working pancrease (evidenced by that am-ps) that without the high carb she could have nose dived a lot farther. soooo, maybe this was keeping those #'s up significantly but still not up in our eyes....does that make sense?

 

Mmmm not so "working" ;-) in this case. This is one majorly sputtering pancreas [like off off off ON ON off off off] if that is what is going on. I've asked Judy a couple times now about any signs - eating etc that was going on right before [in my experience about 1.5 cycles before a big dive]. Strange thing is that I don't think Judy has noticed anything??

With H I weighed all of his food - so I knew how much he ate. I actually weighed 100g every 12 hours which was about the max he would eat in a day. Then if he ate less than that I could guestimate how much less he was eating. I would see the appetite dip then about 1.5 cycles later I would get a dive. It was a big help. So just looking at the numbers one might have said it looked like a sputtering pancreas but it was not. And I'm just mentioning all of this and not saying that appetite is going on here - but I'm very suspicious. I can't reasonably expect that another diabetic cat owner is going to weigh their cats food - so I'll just say I found it helpful.

Worse case Judy's just going to have to watch for those unexpected drops like what happened from last PMPS to AMPS and be cautious the next cycle.

 

+8 69.

Friskies Prime Fillet Chicken and tuna dinner in gravy was the one I believe is 19 carbs. (I had that written on the can after checking Janet's list).

edit--I kept feeding her the food and gravy every 15-30 minutes. And once she went and got it on her own.

 

yeah i don't necessarily see it as a working pancreas either just because the morning number was lower than usual. in this situation. but yes, if a kitty had a working pancreas, what you say totally makes sense lori.

but fwiw, for all we know, the lower amps this morning was actually the upswing from a possible low last night. without numbers from the middle of the night it's hard to say. (nothing bad though judy because i'm not one to test thru the night either. when i go to sleep, i go to sleep )

eta: ok, editing because judy posted that food info as i was typing. that food is definitely listed as 19% carbs. that really should have raised her substantially, without the extra ff gravy added in even. hmmmmmm......so now i must rethink the pancreas thing a little. if you're going to be around judy, i'd be tempted to stop feeding now and see what happens.

 

I will be around for about 2 or 2 1/2 hours. I can stop feeding. How often should I test? I was just getting ready to do the +5 test.

 

I am thinking about what Gator said about my noticing anything. Anything in particular?

She has been drinking a lot more lately. I am not sure if she is eating more---I leave so much damn food around it is impossible to tell. She has certainly been eating, and the vet said (earlier this week, when was that? I am too confused) that she had lost 8 oz, but I don't know since when. I have been thinking she has kidney problems---and her BUN and creatinine numbers were up. She is dehydrated and I am taking her in for subQ fluids tomorrow morning. (was supposed to be yesterday but vet didn't show). Last night she got under the covers with me when I went to bed. Something she used to do every night but has not done much at all for a LONG time now. She left after awhile (typical) but woke me at 5AM to get back under the covers (UNHEARD OF), stayed for just a minute and then left. Soon I heard her making the funny clicking sound she does when she is trying to eat and having problems, and then I heard gagging. I got up and looked around, but found no vomit.

 

+9 73

 

hmmmm......without anymore food, i'd want to test about an hour since the last feeding. just data gathering at this point. gotta wonder if she'll drop or rise

i have several thoughts running around in my head at the moment, so many and all over the place that none are making complete sense to me at the moment

pancreas working? prolonged hypo? hidden pile of barf somewhere? reformulated friskies? typo on the food chart? see what i mean by discombobulated thoughts?

 

How long do I not feed her? She was just looking for food and I NEVER not feed her.

 

ugh! if this were Mousie then she'd stress over me not feeding her and her BG would rise. soooooo, experimenting may be out of the question really.

ok, have you switched back and fed her any of her regular food? if not, maybe feed her a little of that, assuming it is low carb

 

She disappeared for now, so I guess she is not stressing too much. I will wait till she asks again and then give low carb.

 

I'd just feed her regular food. Not the high carb. Let her eat on her own like you normally do. I think [hope] you are out of the woods.

 

She ate a little of her regular FF at 5:30. I can test her in a few minutes--How long before the food changes the numbers? I am thinking that if I test her 20 minutes after she ate, the food will not be a factor(?) and it will just be 10 minutes early for +10.

 

OK so here we go. Here's my input as things stand now.

I would not shoot until she is up over 150. Then I'd shoot like .4u under 200 and maybe .5 or .6u over 200?? I'm basing this off of the last time of 10/30 and 10/31. I do bet she's going to coast for a while. It's just hard to know if whatever is going on [that caused the drop] will continue or resolve pretty much instantly like before.

Anyone else have any input?

And I'd show you vet today's numbers and explain that you fed what you assume to be high carb food at the 45 which probably helped her from going any lower. I also take some responsibility in this for pushing you to be a little more brave in your dosing without making clear the game plan when numbers took an unexpected turn. If it were me this morning [and I did not notice any visible signs] I might have done approx .8u which might or might not have have still been too much at the time. Sooooo. We'll live and learn from this.

 

almost +10 159.

 

interesting. now she's zooming a little.

i'm with gator as far as reducing the dose some for sure at least for a little bit and see what happens. it very well sounds like something happened thru the night last night that set her up with that lower preshot this morning and she very well could go right back up to higher numbers but shooting less is better than shooting more and pulling too many of these long kitty shifts. you might end right back at this dose but next time if you hear gagging noises, you can be cautious, note that, and shoot accordingly.

the high carb not shooting her to the moon though is what's got me. i mean, i've seen high carb and insulin fight each other out but usually it's with overdoses, and i mean big doses as in husband shot and wife didn't know it so wife shot too. given her numbers in general, i wouldn't think 1.1u would be enough to hold out against high carb for hours like it did today.

 

I have to go out in about an hour and will be gone about 2 hours. So I am leaving at +11.25 and back at +13.5. I am assuming I should wait to shoot. Gator, will you be around if I post the PMPS? Or should I just follow the numbers you already mentioned?

 

i know how hard it is to not feed. but she's been eatting all day so she's probably not really that hungy.

 

If you want me to react [instantly] after you test and before you dose - post AND call me [just to make sure I'm not distracted]. I'll try to watch at 9p Eastern. I do like to make sure others have the opportunity to see/and or weigh in [that's 6pm for everyone on SoCal time ;-) ]. You will be safe to shoot at +13. Personally I'd rather that than shoot early in this scenario.

I'm envisioning trying to work her out of high-ish numbers gently for the next couple cycles.

The other part about this is that I would like for you to sleep well tonight and not shoot something you are going to be worried about. :smile: I-)

 

+11 283. Who knows where she will be by the time I can shoot.

 

Weeeeell the known difference between this time and the 10/31 episode is the presumably high carb food. And I think that is another reason to error on the side of caution on the first dose out of this.

 

well i would love to be here but i'm leaving in about 15 minutes and won't be home till about 9 cal. time.
calling gator is a really good idea.

 

i might be here. it's only 5:30 here so i've probably got nearly a couple more hours here at work before we go home and then it depends on if we feel like hitting the japanese restaurant or not. if we go straight home then i'll only be off board for 30-45 minutes i would say as i tend to boot the ol' thing up as soon as we get home and just have it on all weekend and check in here and there. i'll post what i end up doing if need be

 

I'll be around if you want my help, we're waiting for our first winter storm to arrive so, not going anywhere.

 

+13 384. What to shoot--.4? .6?

 

hmmmm, we do want to reduce some as some of this most likely is bounce and we don't want to put him on a rollercoaster by giving too much so i would go with the .6 if this were me, for tonight at least.

i'd try to get a +2 or +3 too if you can. if not, i understand. been a long stressful day i'm sure.

 

Either one should be ok. You need a good nights sleep. Although I would test befor you go to bed to see where she is headed.

I checked your ss where Gator mentioned and .6 would be half of what you shot that night and got the 64 in the morning, so I based my vote on that.

 

.6u. If you felt you wanted to test tonight then .7 or .8u. I'm basing .7 or .8 on the last time which may not be the best representation of what is going on here since the HC was used. So probably playing it safe is best.

Depending on the rise, tomorrow morning, you might need to ramp up in a .2u increment if she continues to go higher tomorrow morning.

 

nothing to add but ((((((hugs))))))

Judy, you are doing awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!

and everyone helping her out :YMHUG: .... yeah, PZ Island ROCKS!!!! flip_cat

 

OK,all, I shot .6. By the time i was ready to shoot it was +14 and she had gone up to 409, so probably .8 would have been fine, but I am quite exhausted and want to sleep. I will try to get in 1 more test before I go to sleep--to see how she's going with this reduced amount. I am mystified by her and this process. Everytime I think I am beginning to understand how it goes, it changes!

Anyhow, I thank you all SOOO much! Going through this alone is unimaginable. I wish you all sweet dreams.

 

You did a great job today! and you will never be in this alone.

Night night.

 

OK so moving forward - for right now at least. IF she has one of these unexpected drops like she did this time - you were moving along at 1.1-ish looking like needing 1.2 then BAM! get a PS drop from something high of about 1/2 the previous PS, especially into the 150-200 range, at least 1/2 the dose you had given previously. I say 1/2 because I'm assuming something is also going on with the appetite or there is some other reason for what is going on - perhaps psycho pancreas - otherwise I'd 2/3 [but 2/3 does not apply here]. But in your case at least 1/2 the dose for the next cycle when you see an unexpected drop like today. You might get punished by high numbers the next cycle or so while you recover, but I think for your kitty it is a wise move.

If you get into the 100-150 range then least 1/3 the dose or probably no-shoot.

Pretty nuanced advice - it would be interesting to see if anyone else had some sort of rough guideline to offer??

Her little P is like all love or like all hate. :YMSIGH:

 

+2 304.
I am unnerved. She is not eating at all, and moving very slowly. Shows no interest in taking the pill, I will try and give liquid phenobarb. God, I hope tomorrow is a better day. We see the vet in the morning, perhaps the subQ fluids will help.
Gator, I would like the info that you mentioned on where to buy the subQ stuff. Thanks!

 

awwwww, poor girl. she might not feel good from the ride she took today perhaps?