Help with Elmo Hypo

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (The Main Forum)' started by Beth 73, Dec 8, 2016.

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  1. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    May have overdosed ....have given 8 carb food at 15 minute intervals 3 times with BG of 60 then 50 then 50 and just now 42...rubbed syrup on gums ab 5 minutes ago
     
  2. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Testing every 15 minutes...next test on 10 minutes
     
  3. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    He is acting fine ...
     
  4. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    How much syrup ??? Sent in into DKA back in July cos gave too much syrup
     
  5. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Rechecked with husband ....said he is sure he gave only the 0.5 dose
     
  6. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Hi Beth,

    Just saw the 911. Glad you've given syrup. Just to double-check:

    - are you still using an Alphatrak meter and treating with Prozinc (always like to make sure when numbers are low)

    - how long after shot time were the readings taken?

    - have you got any carby wet food with gravy?


    Mogs
    .
     
  7. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Just took BG after small amount syrup rubbed on gums...got a 61
     
  8. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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  9. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Using alpha trak and vetsulin..husband is sure he gave only 0.5 dose with morning PS of 173....got 60 at +2 then every 15 minutes of 50, then 50 then 41....at 41 stopped food and went to syrup rubbed little on gums
     
  10. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Elmo is on Vetsulin, Mogs.
     
  11. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, Kris. :bighug: I'm very, very tired today (have CFS among other things) and my concentration is very poor, hence checking whether or not I've got correct info to work with.

    .
     
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  12. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    And yes I have DM with gravey....had given Hills a/d 12 carb...
     
  13. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Alpha trak and vetsulin
     
  14. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Ta, Beth. You're still early in the cycle so keep checking.

    BRB ...

    .
     
  15. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    His nadir is usually around +4 according to his SS so if you dosed around 7 AM (?) he's into the lowest BG phase. If you have a minute, could you post all your BG numbers since his AM dose in one column on here so it's easier for us to see what's happening?
     
  16. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Doing that now
     
  17. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Rub some more syrup on gums before replying - you need to get numbers above 70 at minimum as soon as possible and then work to keep them up.

    I would prefer to see them a lot higher than 70 because of where you're at in the cycle.

    AMPS - 173 [Beth: did Elmo eat OK before his dose?]
    Dose: 0.50 IU Vetsulin

    AM+2.00: 60 - gave 8% carb food
    AM+2.25: 50 - gave 8% carb food
    AM+2.50: 50 - gave 8% carb food
    AM+2.75??: 41 - rubbed syrup on gums
    AM+??????: 60 - c. 5 mins after syrup on gums

    Is this correct?

    You're still very early in the Vetsulin cycle and the most powerful fraction of the insulin is in full force at the moment. Have the car ready to go in case you need to take Elmo to the vets.

    .
     
  18. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Just posted on ss chart...last BG just taken was 71
     
  19. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Should I rub more syrup or give high carb food to keep steering up ?
     
  20. Tuxedo Mom

    Tuxedo Mom Well-Known Member

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    Just keeping an eye on this posting. Where exactly are you at in the cycle right now...I am thinking +3...is this correct??
     
  21. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    A bit rattled but settling down ( me not Elmo).... our desk top computer is lagging so why I'm posting BG here too
     
  22. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Yes +3.5
     
  23. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    @Tuxedo Mom -

    I'm glad to see you here, Mary Ann; I'm not in such good shape right now so it's good to have more eyes on this.

    I don't know how carby DM is with gravy. If Elmo's numbers don't come up soon I'd recommend a vet trip for safety; 41 on an Alphatrak this early in a Vetsulin cycle is very hairy.

    .
     
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  24. Tuxedo Mom

    Tuxedo Mom Well-Known Member

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    OK..If you are at +3.5 and have Elmo up to 71, I would give a small amount of HC gravy and then retest in 20 minutes. I was looking at your S/S and when he hit 37 on Oct 30 you were able to get him up with just HC food according to your notes. so it seems Elmo is quite carb sensitive. The syrup will be wearing off shortly so please post after the next test. He is at an acceptable number right now.

    You are doing great!! :bighug:
     
  25. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Beth,

    Just post the BG and the feedings here for the time being. Ideally post info in the same form as I did in the list above.

    .
     
  26. Tuxedo Mom

    Tuxedo Mom Well-Known Member

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    @Critter Mom I don't have the actual number but the DM with gravy is a higher carb and should work ok.


    ETA Go get some rest Mogs...I will keep an eye out here and there are a few others on that can also help. :bighug:
     
  27. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Beth,

    Remember not to give too much food at a time because you don't want Elmo to get too full; you may need to get him to eat more to keep his numbers up as the cycle progresses.

    .
     
  28. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Whew! Thank heavens others are here. I have to leave soon.
     
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  29. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Maybe mix a little bit of syrup into the gravy to bump up the carb level if numbers slip?

    Thanks, Mary Ann. I've been really overdoing things the last few days and worrying about the Noodle is making me panicky (another thing that makes the fatigue worse).

    :bighug::bighug::bighug:


    Mogs
    .
     
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  30. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Better summary: +2 ..60..1t high carb........+2 1/4...50...3t high carb"......+2.5...50..3t hi carb........+2.75..41...syrup on gums and he licked a little......+3...61...1t high carb...........+31/4....71....1/2 t high carb.......next reading will be his usual nadir at +4........advise ?????
     
  31. Tuxedo Mom

    Tuxedo Mom Well-Known Member

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    Go take care of yourself Mogs. We need you healthy!! :bighug:
     
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  32. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    The DM chunks with sauce is 10.2% carbs according to the product monograph at my vet's office. The pate is 5.7% carbs. I'm in Canada so I don't know if that makes a difference. It shouldn't.
     
  33. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Beth,

    Mary Ann is now keeping an eye on you two. Fingers and paws crossed that Elmo stays in safe numbers for the rest of the cycle. Good catch on that scary low; thank the gods for home testing.

    :bighug:


    Mogs
    .
     
  34. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    :bighug::bighug:
    Bless you, Mogs....please go get sleep...will be keeping u and Noodle in thots and prayers
     
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  35. Tuxedo Mom

    Tuxedo Mom Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the summary..this is easier to follow. Right now he is ok at the 71. Let's see what your +4 reading is...the syrup should have worn off by then so we can see what is needed
     
  36. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    That particular ship sailed over a decade ago, Mary Ann. :(

    :bighug:

    .
     
  37. Tuxedo Mom

    Tuxedo Mom Well-Known Member

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    Well we want to make sure you don't get any worse Mogs...we all care and your help and advice on here is so valuable!! :bighug: :bighug:
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2016
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  38. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    I just saw this post. I'm here too so will keep an eye on things too.
     
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  39. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Oh mercy, the Kitty Cavelry has arrived...Elmo and I are truly blessed:bighug:........will be taking +4 in 15 minutes ....will post here and hope my desk top is cooperating as well:banghead:
     
  40. Tuxedo Mom

    Tuxedo Mom Well-Known Member

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    That is SO cute ;)

    Please post as soon as you get your next reading. If you could post it with your other summary then all the numbers will be together on the post.

    Thanks :bighug:
     
  41. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    @MrWorfMen's Mom -

    Thanks, Linda! (Haven't seen you around much lately otherwise I'd have given you a heads-up earlier.)

    :bighug:


    Mogs
    .
     
  42. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Speaking of kitty cavalry ...

    [​IMG]

    I'll get me coat ...


    :bighug:
    .
     
  43. Squalliesmom

    Squalliesmom Well-Known Member

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    I'm here, too, and will lend whatever help I can.
     
  44. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    +4.....91
     
  45. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Oh that is way too cute :)
     
  46. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Ok, fearless kitty leaders, got a 91 at +4..... further advise ??...
     
  47. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Been running around with some family issues so haven't been on the board as much as usual...was just checking in periodically but not posting much. :(
    Love the cavalry pic! :D

    @Beth 73 That +4 is looking encouraging but Elmo still needs to be watched. I'd test again in 30 minutes with no further food/syrup for now so we can see if he holding his own or if that number is food influence.
     
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  48. Tuxedo Mom

    Tuxedo Mom Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree with Linda
     
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  49. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Just about to sign off.

    A reading of 91 at +4 isn't very far above the Alphatrak hypo threshold level. Remember that the crystalline fraction of the Vetsulin is going to kick in - typically anywhere from about +7. If it were my cat I'd be looking to get numbers comfortably into the 100s before then and I'd keep testing until after +10 even if numbers are safe. The plus is that Vetsulin's an in-out but I'd be cautious about how much to give (if any) this evening; today's low might make Elmo more sensitive to the insulin.

    :bighug:


    Mogs
    .
     
  50. Tuxedo Mom

    Tuxedo Mom Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like good advice. The last hypo of 37 on Oct 30 Elmo did continue to go up without more intervention, but it is always best to be safe.
     
  51. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    :bighug::bighug::bighug:
    Thank you, thank you Mogs....now please go take care of yourself
     
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  52. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Will do...Gotta go feed rescue kitties but will take BG right after at about +4.5
     
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  53. Olive & Paula

    Olive & Paula Well-Known Member

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    Watching
     
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  54. Tuxedo Mom

    Tuxedo Mom Well-Known Member

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    @Beth 73 Have you done any more tests yet?
     
  55. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Just now took +5 ....got a 137.....he has had no food in 2 3/4 hours since + 3.25..... is bummed that after I took last two BGs he looks at me like " what??? No treat ???"....advise as to how to proceed...keep taking BG every hour ? Ideas on what dose to give later at PM? The hypo back in Oct was human error as was the slight one last week but if my dear husband is correct he swears he only gave Elmo his 0.5 this morning ..... I had filled the syringe ....
     
  56. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Also what is good gravey based high carb to have on hand ??
     
  57. Tuxedo Mom

    Tuxedo Mom Well-Known Member

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    I would say that Elmo will be fine for the rest of the cycle. It seems that he is fairly carb sensitive so the foods that you were using today work well with his low numbers. You could keep a few of the Fancy Feast or Friskies with gravy on hand for future use (anti-jinx) but he does respond well with the ones you were using today. If you normally give a small meal of regular food before the next shot you could continue with your normal pattern, but at this point he is still rising without any added help. Hopefully he won't jump up too high for the PMPS. You could do another test in a few hours just to see how the numbers are going, but I think you can take down the "911" now. ;)

    Great catch and great job on steering Elmo back up :bighug:
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2016
  58. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Looks like Elmo is staying/going up now although that could be some bounce due to the low number too. I'd check him again in a couple of hours (when the second volley of Vetsulin action should be clicking in at about +7). If you usually feed Elmo between shots and want to give me him anything more, I'd stick with his usual LC food.
    As for tonight's shot, Elmo earned a reduction so I'd be inclined to give no more than 0.25u as long as the pre-shot number is high enough. Let's see where he goes the rest of the cycle and make tonight's shot decision once we see what he does the rest of this cycle.
     
  59. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Thank u so very much, Mary Ann...I am semi techy illeterate so could u please tell me how to remove the 911...saw ur fur babies are litter mates...I have two 13 yr old sibling brothers as well... litter mates are really extra special !
     
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  60. Olive & Paula

    Olive & Paula Well-Known Member

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    All sounds good to me. Nice job steering.
     
  61. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    And thank u , Linda ....hope all is calming down in ur family life...I totally relate...I am oldest of 3 with two brothers and 94 year old mom and often feel like the only grownup in the room:banghead:;):cool:
     
  62. Tuxedo Mom

    Tuxedo Mom Well-Known Member

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    At the top of this page on the right hand side you will see "Thread tools" If you click on it it has the option to edit the title. Just go to the title and use the drop down box where the 911 is and select the nothing ...no prefix...icon
     
  63. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Thank u so much.....I would know none of this if not for all of u on this priceless message board....:bighug:
     
  64. Olive & Paula

    Olive & Paula Well-Known Member

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  65. Tuxedo Mom

    Tuxedo Mom Well-Known Member

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    Yes my two are brother and sister litter mates very bonded. I love the different personalities with the two of them. I DON'T love that they both decided to be diabetic. No real reason for either of them to be FD kitties, so there must be some genetics that came into play.
     
  66. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    And my boys are both FUS....I have switched them from Hills c/d to Core Wellness due to Elmo giving me heads up ab high carb food....
     
  67. Tuxedo Mom

    Tuxedo Mom Well-Known Member

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    Sorry you have to deal with an ongoing urinary problem. Good thing Elmo gave you "the talk" about a better diet for them ;) Again it sounds like there is some genetics going on there, although better food choices will help a lot with the FUS. Sometimes "sharing" is not such a good thing.

    I remember when I brought my two home. My son was around 11 then and asked which one was my favourite. I just said BOTH. He never understoof that until about 9 years ago when he adopted two girlies. I asked him the same question once and he just laughed. :)
     
  68. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    :);)
     
  69. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Hi Beth et al,

    Just checking in quickly. Good to see Elmo back in safe numbers.

    I'd like to share a little of my experience with Caninsulin/Vetsulin here.

    When Saoirse started getting low nadirs on this insulin when it came to dosing I put most weight on the NADIR BG and not the preshot BG. At that stage a small dose might produce a relatively moderate drop from a mid-range preshot BG level but it could potentially produce a very big drop down to similar low numbers from a high preshot BG. Here's an example from Saoirse's data:

    20.07.14 - Dose 0.5IU Caninsulin. PMPS: 265 / +3 139 (nadir) - Difference between preshot and nadir: 136 points.

    21.07.14 - Dose 0.5IU Caninsulin. AMPS: 407 / +3 155 (nadir) - Difference between preshot and nadir: 252 points.

    Saoirse's feeding was very well regimented and her activity levels were pretty constant at the time so it is reasonable to deduce that the insulin was the main factor responsible for the drops observed. On the second cycle above the same dose lowered her BG by c. 120 points more than it had the previous cycle.

    Looking at Elmo's data he has been uncomfortably low for a Vetsulin cat on the 0.5IU BID dose many times in recent days. (If it were my cat and I were using Vetsulin I would not like to see it going into double digits at nadir as measured on an Alphatrak; it's safer to have a decent buffer in case numbers take an unexpected dip, e.g the pancreas decides to sputter and produce a little more insulin of its own.) Today's numbers were dangerously low and it took a fair bit of intervention to get Elmo back into safe numbers again. Also I note that Elmo seems to metabolise the Vetsulin quickly; his data shows that the Vetsulin's work is well on the way by +2, and his insulin needs seem to be reducing.

    I would give serious consideration to reducing the dose for safety reasons; today's reading of 41 (Alphatrak) was dangerously low so the 0.5IU dose is too high. Even if numbers drift up a little bit on the reduced dose I'd still be inclined to stick to the lower dose (for reasons given above). Also for safety, I suggest you get a +2 or +3 before bed test every evening to see where the cycle's heading overnight so that you'll know whether or not to monitor Elmo more closely for that cycle.


    Mogs
    .
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2016
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  70. Tuxedo Mom

    Tuxedo Mom Well-Known Member

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    Mogs

    Your insights from your own personal experiences are invaluable!! :bighug: :bighug:
     
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  71. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    I had a fair number of brown trouser moments when Saoirse was on Caninsulin. :oops: It didn't help being a complete FD numpty at the time. I'm just so glad I was home testing (and to this day I'm still cheesed off at the vet who refused to give me any help with it).


    Mogs
    .
     
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  72. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Ditto to Mary Ann's comment! Your experience and insight are so valued Mogs!:bighug::bighug:
     
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  73. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Mogs, thank you so much for ur wisdom and care. Praying you get extra restful and restoring sleep this night .:bighug:
     
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  74. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Much of our best education comes from experience rather than "instruction" or "book learning". Instructions and books give you base guidelines but experience is what really counts because our cats don't read the manuals and every one is so individual.
     
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  75. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    <blushes>

    :oops::oops::oops:

    .
     
  76. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    This.

    .
     
  77. Tuxedo Mom

    Tuxedo Mom Well-Known Member

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    YES YES and YES!! :woot:
     
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  78. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Amen and amen !!! My friend who is a vet but also trained as a holistic vet says our kitties are more than their numbers...it's also what we know, what we sense about them that is just as important .
     
  79. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    So much wisdom here!

    Pssst ... U100s ... 'nuff said. ;)
     
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  80. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Above all, this.

    BG testing is only a guide; it's a tool for helping us to 'listen' to their little bodies and helping us to keep them safe, nothing more.

    :bighug::bighug::bighug:


    Mogs
    .
     
  81. Marlena

    Marlena Well-Known Member

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    OMG! I was not aware at all that you guys were dealing with hypo. Very well done everybody, Mogs, as usual is AMAZING!
    I'm glad that Elmo is OK.
    I just had hypo with Rocky and was not really prepared for it as he dropped on quite a small dose which I assumed was very safe - how wrong I was! We are learning all the time.
    Best regards to everybody and congrats to Beth for catching and dealing so well with scary hypo!
    Marlena
     
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  82. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    +5....137.........+7....147
     
  83. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    +4..91......+5....137......+7.....147
     
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  84. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    I need caffeine :coffee:
     
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  85. Tuxedo Mom

    Tuxedo Mom Well-Known Member

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    Those are actually decent numbers, especially with the AT2 pet meter. If Elmo is a nice kitty [​IMG] he will just surf the blues nicely. It will be interesting where he is at PMPS. But regardless a reduction is in order, or who knows. If the numbers are too low you may have to come up with another plan ;)
     
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  86. Tuxedo Mom

    Tuxedo Mom Well-Known Member

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    I think you could feel quite safe in grabbing yourself a nice nap right now :bighug:
     
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  87. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Thank u, Marlena....could not do it without all of you !!!:bighug:
     
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  88. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    OR , maybe decorate the Christmas tree before the 25th;):woot:
     
  89. Tuxedo Mom

    Tuxedo Mom Well-Known Member

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    upload_2016-12-8_14-29-35.jpeg
     
  90. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    :joyful::D:joyful::D:joyful:.....oh I needed a laugh...between u and Mogs with her earlier" brown trousers" comment :joyful:
     
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  91. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

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    Aug 2, 2016
    You are a hoot :joyful:.... I was actually trying to order some this a.m. When this hypo distraction occurred....did U tell me that U100 come in half unit markings??? Guy at ADW could not find them...or did I misunderstand you ( probable more than possible o_O) .......
     
  92. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2015
    Beth, here are the ones I use as do many other folks here. There may be other options at less cost (although these look pretty reasonable to me given what they cost here in Canada!:mad::blackeye:)
     
  93. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    Sometimes with added bicycle clips! :eek:


    Mogs
    .
     
  94. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2016
    :joyful::joyful::joyful::bighug:.....u r the BEST, Mogs :)
     
    Critter Mom likes this.
  95. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2016
    Thank you, Linda :)
     
  96. Squalliesmom

    Squalliesmom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2015
    Glad Elmo is doing okay now, you did a great job dealing with the hypo! Just be extra-vigilant tonight after his evening shot, even with the reduction! :bighug:
     
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  97. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2016
    Absolutely and thank u for checking on us :bighug:
     
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  98. Chris & China

    Chris & China Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2013
    Great job today Beth.....and the kitty cavalry!!

    All these are U100 with half unit markings and are available from ADW online:
    UtiCare
    Monoject
    Carepoint
    Sure Comfort
    BD Ultra-Fine

    They're also available at WalMart if you have one near you..Their Relion Brand 3/10ml, 3o or 31 gauge, 8mm insulin syringes all come with half unit markings and are only $12.58 for a box of 100 (although it seems a lot of WalMart employees don't realize that they DO come with half unit markings!!)
     
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  99. Beth 73

    Beth 73 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2016
    Hey Chris !! Hope all is well up in Versailles !! Thank u for needle info...after a good night's sleep I will order tomorrow !
     
  100. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Yes, you need half unit markings on them.
     
    Beth 73 likes this.
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