I ran out of Prozinc a few days ago...

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (The Main Forum)' started by acsmith1972, Sep 5, 2018.

  1. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

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    Dec 19, 2016
    So on Saturday I went to the vet to get more and saw a note on the door saying they were closed for the holiday weekend Fri, Sat, Sun, Mon (must be nice), and had the VCA number as the emergency number. VCA said without Fluffer's records (and the copies I have of all his tests aren't considered proof, nor are the receipts for his medicine) they couldn't prescribe Prozinc. Of course. But they'd be happy to for an emergency vet visit and curve and all the lab work, you know, for a few thousand dollars. I said no. I don't have that kind of cash and I'm not falling for what's clearly a scam at the expense of our pets. It's insulin. Not heroin. I'm getting a script after this. This is not happening again.

    So we decided to watch and wait and see if it got really bad. There was nothing we could do about it either way. He was his normal self all day. Sunday: his normal self, but seemed happier. Monday he was running around chasing the younger kitty Luna playing tag, apparently. He even "chased the dot". Laser. Tuesday, he was great all day. Aside from making his usual mess of the litter box. He now needs a bath. I checked his glucose last night and it was 489. But he also grazes and used to be a 24 pound piggy before he got Diabetes. Now he's a 12 pound piggy. And I know a lot of you have had success with wet food or high protein food, but he refuses to eat it. He dropped to 8 pounds when we tried weaning him off of it. That's around the time the vet recommended putting him to sleep last winter and I said no, that should really be his decision, not mine.

    Anyway, aside from the high test, if I didn't know any better I'd say he's fine. He's wobbly, but he's been that way for about a year and a half now. One of our beds is really high. So high I have carpeted steps on one side that are like 24 inches tall for him to get on and off easier. The other day my wife was in bed and out of nowhere Fluffer jumped up on the bed on the side without the steps. He also prefers jumping down to using the steps. He still uses his window perch, and he's up and down both flights of stairs multiple times every day. I made it a little easier with litter boxes on two floors (no room on the top floor) and food and water on both floors (except on the garage level since it's hard enough to keep track of these things). Basically I was trying to make it so he could stay on the main level if he wanted to and have everything there, or use the basement litter box or come up here and have food and water by the bedrooms. He likes spending time with us, and he still goes down two flights to greet me when I come home. He'll be 15 in like 5 months.

    So, I guess I want to know how is he not crashing? On the few occasions we screwed up his shot times, because it's really hard when you both work full-time to keep a set schedule every day, he'd be messed up for a few days. He also has this cauliflower ear that's always getting infected I have to clean just about twice a day. So much work this guy, but I love him, so I don't mind. How is he not crashing and why has his mood and energy improved/increased the last few days? I'm going to get more insulin today and will probably start him off lower than before, but could he be beating this on his own? Luna, my ten year old kitty hasn't aged a day since she was a kitten. Just last night she flew up the stairs, onto the windowsill, onto a table, and jumped through the air. It was really funny. For no other reason than she's a cat.

    I tried several times uploading pictures but the limitations on this thing are ridiculous.
     

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  2. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    That high of a bg is dangerous. He is at risk for developing DKA which can turn deadly in a short amount of time and can develop quickly. Long term high bg also stresses the other organs and will eventually lead to organ failure. He is also more prone to uti and it can lead to neuropathy which could be the wobble you are seeing. Please get insulin started again today. Cats are resilient, and I'm glad he's feeling playful, but the numbers show his pancreas had not started healing yet and he really needs insulin support.
     
  3. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    I agree with Janet's advice. He needs insulin so I hope you can get it ASAP. As for why he seems to be feeling better - it's possible his insulin dosing hasn't been optimal. Maybe he was dropping too low, etc. but without test data you won't know. I know that's not what you want to read but a regular testing routine can go a long way to getting your kitty feeling better consistently. If he will only eat dry food you can dose around that to get his BG down. Many members here have crazy work schedules and uncooperative cats (for testing) but they find ways to get it done. We can help if you're interested. :)
     
  4. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016

    We got tired of freaking him out with daily tests for his glucose. He really started hating us and would run when he saw the stuff to do the test. And his ears started looking bad from getting poked all the time. We played around with the levels and settled on 2.5 units. At 2.5 his glucose would be around between maybe 100 give or take at the low end and around 200 on the high end. I had the money for this Saturday, but I just paid $1700 for rent today. So it's going to have to wait one more day. I'll get it for him in the morning and get him back on track. Should I start lower since it's been a few days?
     
  5. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    If his ears looked bad then you probably were hitting the vein. My cat that gets tested 4+ times a day doesn’t have bruised ears because I test on the very outer edge. C6548E00-F72C-47C4-86C7-6C56548D072B.jpeg
     
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  6. Idjit's mom

    Idjit's mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2018
    Idjit hated testing also, I think because we were so nervous about it and when we got better at it, he settled down. We also began by bribing with a treat before and rewarding with a treat after, successful test or not. And even the experienced long time members here have unsuccessful tests now and then. Try to find the testing station, and only test there. Find a treat that Fluffer likes, the freeze dried Pure Bites works here for Idjit, or a piece of diced cooked chicken breast. Some people use dried bonito flakes also. Do you have another person there to help? My husband and I team up, he holds, I poke and test, and one of us rewards. It does take practice on your part, and conditioning on Fluffer's part. Try going through the motions a few times in the day, pick him up, warm his ears with the rice sock, (I rub it all over Idjit's head and chin too, he loves that warmth), squeeze one ear like it's a poke, and then reward. Sing to Fluffers, it actually makes your brain work a little differently and calms you, so you can perform the test. The more you test in that "sweet spot" on each ear, the more capillaries develop and the easier it is to get that little blood drop. After you get the drop on the strip, and the test is completed, use that cotton ball, or pad, or folded tissue or paper towel to compress the poke site for a few seconds. That helps prevent bruising. We hit the vein a few times too, and got more blood than we bargained for, but we kept trying and got better. Please keep trying and don't shoot blind. Having a hypo is very scary and can be fatal.
    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/testing-and-shooting-tips.85113/#post-1377750
     
    Leah, AshleyDiamond and Sharon14 like this.
  7. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    Both my cats are spoiled and don't like anything outside their routine of being in charge of life around here. There is no safe area to do Fluffer's ear. There are no treats to bribe him with. He tolerates insulin shots, but the ear thing he squirms and even occasionally scratches to get away from that. His favorite treat is any flavor Temptations. He'll turn his nose up at anything actually good for him. Neither of them even particularly like Tuna on the rare occasion I put that out for them. And neither of them even like milk, cream, or even the creamy stuff for cats. Although Luna does like butter apparently. I put my empty bowl of cream of wheat down and she went to town on it. Then tried to bury it. lol
     
  8. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Jun 8, 2016
    What about a pinch of catnip?
     
  9. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 17, 2016
    The decision about whether to test or not is entirely yours. We here on FDMB rely on those numbers to guide our own dosing decisions and to help others. I will say, though, that the issues around testing are usually more on the human side. If the care giver decides it HAS TO happen to get a better grip on their kitty's FD then he/she finds a way.

    I'm sorry if that seems harsh. It's just that there have been many others who have come here in a similar situation and at some point they made the decision to try to do things differently and were eventually successful. They've often written posts describing their testing problems and reluctance and what they did to overcome those things.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2018
  10. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    Yeah, not every cat is the same. Fluffer knows when he's about to get his ear tested like he knows when he's about to get his ears cleaned. And he runs and hides and he just doesn't cooperate. I literally just had to stick his ears 6 times to get a drop of blood. He has really bad circulation in his ears, but it's the only place he'll somewhat cooperate with. And now he's hiding in the closet because he's pissed. And this happens every time I do it. Treats don't work after sticking pins in his ears. Imagine what treats would make any of you okay with someone sticking pins in your ears multiple times a day. Or even once a day. Assuming you had no choice and the other person was going to physically restrain you and do it to you no matter what. Probably not much would work.

    So it's been about a week now and his levels are back where they should be. I just tested him and it was 85, which is fine. But he's been moping around for days, he has no energy, he's clearly unhappy, he's no longer snuggling or playing, he's hiding in closets or under beds, he's back to making a mess in the litter box and getting litter stuck to his feet; maybe my wife is right and he's just healthier with screwed up insulin? I hate seeing him this way. He looks miserable, like he's given up on life. He's not eating, he rarely drinks water, he just hides all day. How is this better than high glucose with lots of eating drinking, running around and playing, cuddling, purring, talking, being loveable? The last time i brought him to the vet like this he suggested putting him to sleep. I'm not going to do that. I've seen him get much better since that visit. But this isn't right. Either this insulin sucks, or maybe he needs less of it. I think I'm going to try going down from 2.5 units twice a day to 2 twice a day. Maybe if his levels are slightly higher he'll perk up. Honestly, if the Lantus is better than this, I can get that one. I know it costs more, but the per day cost is still very reasonable.
     
  11. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    I tested him last night and he was at 230 I think, and tonight he was at 211. So that seems like where it should be and that's still on one unit twice a day. But he's super wobbly. He wasn't like that before when we were doing 2.5 units twice a day. But even then when I tested him he still was in that 200+- range. This is why I'm wondering about this insulin. You'd think if he's somewhat normal on 2 units total for the day that at 5 units total he'd be all screwed up, but he seemed a lot happier with the higher dosage.
     
  12. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Jun 8, 2016
    Those readings were preshots or mid cycle numbers? Please update your spreadsheet so it's easier to see what's happening and give you advice
     
  13. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

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    Dec 19, 2016
    Someone has to explain how to use that spreadsheet. It still make no sense to me. Every time I go to edit it it says I have to request access from the owner and every time I do that I never get permission to edit it. I don't get why you guys can't just use excel. I don't need to request permission from anyone else and can do it locally on my pc and upload it when needed.

    Those readings were between his morning and afternoon shots and a few hour after his night shot.
     
  14. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    If I had "permission" to edit the one online I could maybe copy and paste everything into Excel. Otherwise the only thing I get is a blank Excel page to work with without all the stuff at the top.
     
  15. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    You have it set up wrong then. You shouldn't have to ask permission. Are you signed into Google drive with a different email than you set it up with? That would probably cause that problem. I'll tag Chris... She's good at setting these things up. @Chris & China
     
  16. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

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    Dec 19, 2016
    I checked him at around 3am and he was at 300. He's been really bad all night, head tilting to one side, he can't walk, and he just peed all over the bed. :( Trying a bath to clean him off and maybe wake him out of this. My wife wants to go back to no insulin to where he was happy and alive.
     
  17. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    Post bath he's looking really unhappy. My sister had a cat a few years ago that needed some sort of medication. I forget for what. And he had adopted the cat as an adult cat. She started on the medications and tried various things through the vet and the cat was miserable. It went from a happy cat to a sick all the time cat and it was sick because of the medicine, not the condition. The condition did the cat in eventually, but it was the treatment that had the cat in pain and misery day in and day out. So she stopped giving the cat the medicine. And he got better. And he was happy and back to his old loving self, playing, and cuddling and everything else cats do for us. And then six months after that, he was gone. But she was convinced she did the right thing because his life sucked no matter what medicine they tried. There's a difference between sick and suffering. I want this to work, but he's not getting better. He's getting worse.
     
  18. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    We'd really like to help but you have to meet us half way. Human nature is such that when we really want to accomplish something, we move heaven and earth to get it done but when we don't want to do something, everything is a major obstacle. Your kitty might be feeling awful from unregulated BG. You've convinced yourself that it's the treatment that's making him feel sick and that you can't test him regularly and keep the spreadsheet we use here. Yes, it's possible that ProZinc doesn't agree with him but it also might be from not dosing in a way that controls BG better. A different insulin might work better - Lantus works well for many cats. You have to be willing to reconsider the whole testing thing. Please get help setting up the spreadsheet.

    You might be feeling that posting here is a waste of your time because we're not providing helpful advice. It's more a case of us wanting to help you get on top of things with your kitty but you've told us repeatedly that you can't or won't do what we know works.

    I apologize if this post seems too blunt. We're very clear on FDMB about what we do to help kitties and that is the advice we give to anyone who comes looking for help. Please give this some thought ...
     
  19. acsmith1972

    acsmith1972 Member

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    Dec 19, 2016
    I get annoyed because your spreadsheet really doesn't tell me anything. i've looked at other people's and all these people have different results with the same doses depending on the cat. Some do better with more all other things being equal, some people do better with less. 1 unit twice a day doesn't help, 2 units doesn't help, 2.5 units twice a day doesn't help. His glucose comes down but he feels like crap. All those symptoms started after doing various insulins for the last two years. We've done the curves, we've tried antibiotics for his ear infection, we've done vitamin B, nothing seems to help. So, yeah, it's a little frustrating because first of all both my wife and I are out twelve hours a day and could really only test when we're here, but if we keep injecting him and he keeps feeling like crap what's that going to tell you? Literally if there's no number where he feels good, what does that tell you? The best mood I've seen him in in a long time was off the insulin, which wasn't by design, but it happened because I didn't know the vet would be closed the Saturday before Labor Day, but that was when he was the happiest in months. And he was around 450, I think. He was playing with Luna, running around, jumping, talking, being super cuddly, and then with the insulin it's like he lost 3 pounds, he's lethargic, miserable. Right now he's downstairs shaking and meowing at the door to go out and he's an indoor cat and knows he can't go out. He can't use the litter box, he can barely get water, he can't eat, and, yeah, it's frustrating to hear people say the solution is just keep sticking him and see what happens. If it turns out he is allergic to this insulin that method could kill him.
     
  20. Diana&Tom

    Diana&Tom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    Just been reading this thread and trying to think of something new to add to what's already been said... it's a difficult situation that's for sure. I might have missed any reference you may have made to your vet's opinion, but I think in your shoes I'd want to take Fluffers in for a thorough health check and also ask your vet if he/she can suggest any further lines of enquiry that you could pursue to try to get this sorted. There may be something we're missing here that could provide a clue to what's going on... I don't know but sometimes a verbal conversation wins over a time-delay internet discussion.
    Sorry, not very helpful, but I don't know if we're going to get much further here.
    Best of luck.
     
  21. Chris & China

    Chris & China Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2013
    Have you checked into this?

    If you're still having trouble, I'd be happy to set up a new spreadsheet for you and Fluffer and help you learn how to use it.

    Learning to interpret spreadsheets correctly can take years. That's why so many people may want to help but can't because they don't have the experience to interpret them right. There are also lots of people here that CAN….it's a matter of learning who has the experience to ask sometimes....but everybody here really does want to help and will give you what knowledge they are comfortable sharing. Nobody wants to be responsible for hurting someone else's cat, so if someone doesn't fully understand how each insulin works and knows what signs to look for on the spreadsheets, it's better that they don't give dosing advice.

    Insulin is a hormone.….it can act differently from cycle to cycle. It's not like taking 2 aspirin and your temperature goes down.

    Yes, it is possible that your current insulin isn't the right one for Fluffer. We've seen it before....but without seeing the numbers on the spreadsheet we're used to using, it's a total guess what's going on.
     
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