I ran out of Prozinc a few days ago...

So on Saturday I went to the vet to get more and saw a note on the door saying they were closed for the holiday weekend Fri, Sat, Sun, Mon (must be nice), and had the VCA number as the emergency number. VCA said without Fluffer's records (and the copies I have of all his tests aren't considered proof, nor are the receipts for his medicine) they couldn't prescribe Prozinc. Of course. But they'd be happy to for an emergency vet visit and curve and all the lab work, you know, for a few thousand dollars. I said no. I don't have that kind of cash and I'm not falling for what's clearly a scam at the expense of our pets. It's insulin. Not heroin. I'm getting a script after this. This is not happening again.

So we decided to watch and wait and see if it got really bad. There was nothing we could do about it either way. He was his normal self all day. Sunday: his normal self, but seemed happier. Monday he was running around chasing the younger kitty Luna playing tag, apparently. He even "chased the dot". Laser. Tuesday, he was great all day. Aside from making his usual mess of the litter box. He now needs a bath. I checked his glucose last night and it was 489. But he also grazes and used to be a 24 pound piggy before he got Diabetes. Now he's a 12 pound piggy. And I know a lot of you have had success with wet food or high protein food, but he refuses to eat it. He dropped to 8 pounds when we tried weaning him off of it. That's around the time the vet recommended putting him to sleep last winter and I said no, that should really be his decision, not mine.

Anyway, aside from the high test, if I didn't know any better I'd say he's fine. He's wobbly, but he's been that way for about a year and a half now. One of our beds is really high. So high I have carpeted steps on one side that are like 24 inches tall for him to get on and off easier. The other day my wife was in bed and out of nowhere Fluffer jumped up on the bed on the side without the steps. He also prefers jumping down to using the steps. He still uses his window perch, and he's up and down both flights of stairs multiple times every day. I made it a little easier with litter boxes on two floors (no room on the top floor) and food and water on both floors (except on the garage level since it's hard enough to keep track of these things). Basically I was trying to make it so he could stay on the main level if he wanted to and have everything there, or use the basement litter box or come up here and have food and water by the bedrooms. He likes spending time with us, and he still goes down two flights to greet me when I come home. He'll be 15 in like 5 months.

So, I guess I want to know how is he not crashing? On the few occasions we screwed up his shot times, because it's really hard when you both work full-time to keep a set schedule every day, he'd be messed up for a few days. He also has this cauliflower ear that's always getting infected I have to clean just about twice a day. So much work this guy, but I love him, so I don't mind. How is he not crashing and why has his mood and energy improved/increased the last few days? I'm going to get more insulin today and will probably start him off lower than before, but could he be beating this on his own? Luna, my ten year old kitty hasn't aged a day since she was a kitten. Just last night she flew up the stairs, onto the windowsill, onto a table, and jumped through the air. It was really funny. For no other reason than she's a cat.

I tried several times uploading pictures but the limitations on this thing are ridiculous.

 

That high of a bg is dangerous. He is at risk for developing DKA which can turn deadly in a short amount of time and can develop quickly. Long term high bg also stresses the other organs and will eventually lead to organ failure. He is also more prone to uti and it can lead to neuropathy which could be the wobble you are seeing. Please get insulin started again today. Cats are resilient, and I'm glad he's feeling playful, but the numbers show his pancreas had not started healing yet and he really needs insulin support.

 

I agree with Janet's advice. He needs insulin so I hope you can get it ASAP. As for why he seems to be feeling better - it's possible his insulin dosing hasn't been optimal. Maybe he was dropping too low, etc. but without test data you won't know. I know that's not what you want to read but a regular testing routine can go a long way to getting your kitty feeling better consistently. If he will only eat dry food you can dose around that to get his BG down. Many members here have crazy work schedules and uncooperative cats (for testing) but they find ways to get it done. We can help if you're interested.

 

We got tired of freaking him out with daily tests for his glucose. He really started hating us and would run when he saw the stuff to do the test. And his ears started looking bad from getting poked all the time. We played around with the levels and settled on 2.5 units. At 2.5 his glucose would be around between maybe 100 give or take at the low end and around 200 on the high end. I had the money for this Saturday, but I just paid $1700 for rent today. So it's going to have to wait one more day. I'll get it for him in the morning and get him back on track. Should I start lower since it's been a few days?

 

If his ears looked bad then you probably were hitting the vein. My cat that gets tested 4+ times a day doesn’t have bruised ears because I test on the very outer edge.

 

Idjit hated testing also, I think because we were so nervous about it and when we got better at it, he settled down. We also began by bribing with a treat before and rewarding with a treat after, successful test or not. And even the experienced long time members here have unsuccessful tests now and then. Try to find the testing station, and only test there. Find a treat that Fluffer likes, the freeze dried Pure Bites works here for Idjit, or a piece of diced cooked chicken breast. Some people use dried bonito flakes also. Do you have another person there to help? My husband and I team up, he holds, I poke and test, and one of us rewards. It does take practice on your part, and conditioning on Fluffer's part. Try going through the motions a few times in the day, pick him up, warm his ears with the rice sock, (I rub it all over Idjit's head and chin too, he loves that warmth), squeeze one ear like it's a poke, and then reward. Sing to Fluffers, it actually makes your brain work a little differently and calms you, so you can perform the test. The more you test in that "sweet spot" on each ear, the more capillaries develop and the easier it is to get that little blood drop. After you get the drop on the strip, and the test is completed, use that cotton ball, or pad, or folded tissue or paper towel to compress the poke site for a few seconds. That helps prevent bruising. We hit the vein a few times too, and got more blood than we bargained for, but we kept trying and got better. Please keep trying and don't shoot blind. Having a hypo is very scary and can be fatal.
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/testing-and-shooting-tips.85113/#post-1377750

 

Both my cats are spoiled and don't like anything outside their routine of being in charge of life around here. There is no safe area to do Fluffer's ear. There are no treats to bribe him with. He tolerates insulin shots, but the ear thing he squirms and even occasionally scratches to get away from that. His favorite treat is any flavor Temptations. He'll turn his nose up at anything actually good for him. Neither of them even particularly like Tuna on the rare occasion I put that out for them. And neither of them even like milk, cream, or even the creamy stuff for cats. Although Luna does like butter apparently. I put my empty bowl of cream of wheat down and she went to town on it. Then tried to bury it. lol

 

What about a pinch of catnip?

 

The decision about whether to test or not is entirely yours. We here on FDMB rely on those numbers to guide our own dosing decisions and to help others. I will say, though, that the issues around testing are usually more on the human side. If the care giver decides it HAS TO happen to get a better grip on their kitty's FD then he/she finds a way.

I'm sorry if that seems harsh. It's just that there have been many others who have come here in a similar situation and at some point they made the decision to try to do things differently and were eventually successful. They've often written posts describing their testing problems and reluctance and what they did to overcome those things.

 

Yeah, not every cat is the same. Fluffer knows when he's about to get his ear tested like he knows when he's about to get his ears cleaned. And he runs and hides and he just doesn't cooperate. I literally just had to stick his ears 6 times to get a drop of blood. He has really bad circulation in his ears, but it's the only place he'll somewhat cooperate with. And now he's hiding in the closet because he's pissed. And this happens every time I do it. Treats don't work after sticking pins in his ears. Imagine what treats would make any of you okay with someone sticking pins in your ears multiple times a day. Or even once a day. Assuming you had no choice and the other person was going to physically restrain you and do it to you no matter what. Probably not much would work.

So it's been about a week now and his levels are back where they should be. I just tested him and it was 85, which is fine. But he's been moping around for days, he has no energy, he's clearly unhappy, he's no longer snuggling or playing, he's hiding in closets or under beds, he's back to making a mess in the litter box and getting litter stuck to his feet; maybe my wife is right and he's just healthier with screwed up insulin? I hate seeing him this way. He looks miserable, like he's given up on life. He's not eating, he rarely drinks water, he just hides all day. How is this better than high glucose with lots of eating drinking, running around and playing, cuddling, purring, talking, being loveable? The last time i brought him to the vet like this he suggested putting him to sleep. I'm not going to do that. I've seen him get much better since that visit. But this isn't right. Either this insulin sucks, or maybe he needs less of it. I think I'm going to try going down from 2.5 units twice a day to 2 twice a day. Maybe if his levels are slightly higher he'll perk up. Honestly, if the Lantus is better than this, I can get that one. I know it costs more, but the per day cost is still very reasonable.

 

I tested him last night and he was at 230 I think, and tonight he was at 211. So that seems like where it should be and that's still on one unit twice a day. But he's super wobbly. He wasn't like that before when we were doing 2.5 units twice a day. But even then when I tested him he still was in that 200+- range. This is why I'm wondering about this insulin. You'd think if he's somewhat normal on 2 units total for the day that at 5 units total he'd be all screwed up, but he seemed a lot happier with the higher dosage.

 

Those readings were preshots or mid cycle numbers? Please update your spreadsheet so it's easier to see what's happening and give you advice

 

Someone has to explain how to use that spreadsheet. It still make no sense to me. Every time I go to edit it it says I have to request access from the owner and every time I do that I never get permission to edit it. I don't get why you guys can't just use excel. I don't need to request permission from anyone else and can do it locally on my pc and upload it when needed.

Those readings were between his morning and afternoon shots and a few hour after his night shot.

 

If I had "permission" to edit the one online I could maybe copy and paste everything into Excel. Otherwise the only thing I get is a blank Excel page to work with without all the stuff at the top.

 

You have it set up wrong then. You shouldn't have to ask permission. Are you signed into Google drive with a different email than you set it up with? That would probably cause that problem. I'll tag Chris... She's good at setting these things up. @Chris & China

 

I checked him at around 3am and he was at 300. He's been really bad all night, head tilting to one side, he can't walk, and he just peed all over the bed. Trying a bath to clean him off and maybe wake him out of this. My wife wants to go back to no insulin to where he was happy and alive.

 

Post bath he's looking really unhappy. My sister had a cat a few years ago that needed some sort of medication. I forget for what. And he had adopted the cat as an adult cat. She started on the medications and tried various things through the vet and the cat was miserable. It went from a happy cat to a sick all the time cat and it was sick because of the medicine, not the condition. The condition did the cat in eventually, but it was the treatment that had the cat in pain and misery day in and day out. So she stopped giving the cat the medicine. And he got better. And he was happy and back to his old loving self, playing, and cuddling and everything else cats do for us. And then six months after that, he was gone. But she was convinced she did the right thing because his life sucked no matter what medicine they tried. There's a difference between sick and suffering. I want this to work, but he's not getting better. He's getting worse.

 

We'd really like to help but you have to meet us half way. Human nature is such that when we really want to accomplish something, we move heaven and earth to get it done but when we don't want to do something, everything is a major obstacle. Your kitty might be feeling awful from unregulated BG. You've convinced yourself that it's the treatment that's making him feel sick and that you can't test him regularly and keep the spreadsheet we use here. Yes, it's possible that ProZinc doesn't agree with him but it also might be from not dosing in a way that controls BG better. A different insulin might work better - Lantus works well for many cats. You have to be willing to reconsider the whole testing thing. Please get help setting up the spreadsheet.

You might be feeling that posting here is a waste of your time because we're not providing helpful advice. It's more a case of us wanting to help you get on top of things with your kitty but you've told us repeatedly that you can't or won't do what we know works.

I apologize if this post seems too blunt. We're very clear on FDMB about what we do to help kitties and that is the advice we give to anyone who comes looking for help. Please give this some thought ...

 

I get annoyed because your spreadsheet really doesn't tell me anything. i've looked at other people's and all these people have different results with the same doses depending on the cat. Some do better with more all other things being equal, some people do better with less. 1 unit twice a day doesn't help, 2 units doesn't help, 2.5 units twice a day doesn't help. His glucose comes down but he feels like crap. All those symptoms started after doing various insulins for the last two years. We've done the curves, we've tried antibiotics for his ear infection, we've done vitamin B, nothing seems to help. So, yeah, it's a little frustrating because first of all both my wife and I are out twelve hours a day and could really only test when we're here, but if we keep injecting him and he keeps feeling like crap what's that going to tell you? Literally if there's no number where he feels good, what does that tell you? The best mood I've seen him in in a long time was off the insulin, which wasn't by design, but it happened because I didn't know the vet would be closed the Saturday before Labor Day, but that was when he was the happiest in months. And he was around 450, I think. He was playing with Luna, running around, jumping, talking, being super cuddly, and then with the insulin it's like he lost 3 pounds, he's lethargic, miserable. Right now he's downstairs shaking and meowing at the door to go out and he's an indoor cat and knows he can't go out. He can't use the litter box, he can barely get water, he can't eat, and, yeah, it's frustrating to hear people say the solution is just keep sticking him and see what happens. If it turns out he is allergic to this insulin that method could kill him.

 

Just been reading this thread and trying to think of something new to add to what's already been said... it's a difficult situation that's for sure. I might have missed any reference you may have made to your vet's opinion, but I think in your shoes I'd want to take Fluffers in for a thorough health check and also ask your vet if he/she can suggest any further lines of enquiry that you could pursue to try to get this sorted. There may be something we're missing here that could provide a clue to what's going on... I don't know but sometimes a verbal conversation wins over a time-delay internet discussion.
Sorry, not very helpful, but I don't know if we're going to get much further here.
Best of luck.

 

Have you checked into this?

If you're still having trouble, I'd be happy to set up a new spreadsheet for you and Fluffer and help you learn how to use it.

Learning to interpret spreadsheets correctly can take years. That's why so many people may want to help but can't because they don't have the experience to interpret them right. There are also lots of people here that CAN….it's a matter of learning who has the experience to ask sometimes....but everybody here really does want to help and will give you what knowledge they are comfortable sharing. Nobody wants to be responsible for hurting someone else's cat, so if someone doesn't fully understand how each insulin works and knows what signs to look for on the spreadsheets, it's better that they don't give dosing advice.

Insulin is a hormone.….it can act differently from cycle to cycle. It's not like taking 2 aspirin and your temperature goes down.

Yes, it is possible that your current insulin isn't the right one for Fluffer. We've seen it before....but without seeing the numbers on the spreadsheet we're used to using, it's a total guess what's going on.

 

We think he had another stroke. He's had some in the past. His head is tilted to one side, he has vacant eyes, he can't walk right, he doesn't seem to know where he is; I just tried to help him go pee, but I guess he doesn't need to go right now. He does get up on his own and walk around but not very far, just for water occasionally. Gonna have to start baby feeding him again. Last time we woke up one morning and it was like nothing had happened when the night before we thought it was the end. We're both hoping this will pass, too. I checked his glucose today and it was 340. Not terribly high, but that's probably because he basically stopped eating. So now we're trying to deal with the stroke stuff. I know if I take him to the vet they're just going to do the same battery of tests, charge me another $500, then tell me they can't help him and what I should do. It's funny how they have to do those expensive tests first before those diagnoses. I'm not sure what to do for him other than just give him water, food, and lots of love at this point.

 

Has Fluffers ever had a seizure? They can be subtle but some of the symptoms you're describing really make me wonder. Maybe it's something to talk to your vet about...

 

Can you just ring your vet for a quick word over the phone... ? I hear what you say about expensive tests but if a kitty is really poorly and you don't know what to do for him, the vet might be able to give you some pointers going by your description of symptoms... and then whether you decide to take him in or not is up to you.

 

The best thing at this point would be to take your kitty to the vet. He could have thrown a clot, he could have heart issues, he could be going into DKA, he could be having seizures....but without having it checked out by the vet and having appropriate blood work done, there is no way to know. By not doing anything it is possible that Fluffers is being subjected to unnecessary suffering which is not fair for him. If he is not eating properly that will also impact his liver and could lead to further serious problems.

 

Can toy get a ketone strip test? You can get them at any pharmacy

 

He always tests negative for that here or at the vet.

 

It may be the best thing but I have a $300 balance at the vet and I have $50 in my account. There's no way our evt is going to let me rack up another $500 in vet bills on top of that. Plus, the vet's answer is going to be what it always is when he's like this that maybe it's time to kill him and I'm not doing that.

 

It's not whether or not I decide t take him: if the vet were free I'd take him every time. But the vet gets between $130 to $500 or more per visit. I could tell him I have $50 and can he do $50 worth of help, but he'd probably say it doesn't work like that. It really sucks that for animals they can be turned away due to lack of funds, unlike people who can go to an ER and get help if they need it.

 

I think either seizures or strokes. The vet had said it happens a lot and it clears up in cats and the last time it happened he did clear up. There was a day where we thought he was gone. He was literally suck to the blanket from drool and wasn't moving at all. That was a really bad day for me. After shaking him for a few minutes he popped his eyes open like, "What? Trying to sleep here." And then he went back to a semi-comatose state. Three or four days later he was walking around like nothing happened. He had the same head tilt way to the left then, too. But it had gone away.

 

Last night, my wife said goodbye to him. That really pissed me off and I told her so. I told her, "Goonies never say die." Anyway, I slept on the couch all night. My back is killing me, but I wanted to be close to him if he needed me. I can't have him upstairs because he might try to go down. I should probably put the gate up to the lower level where the garage is. But we have two water bowls on the floor he's on, two food bowls, which he's ignored, and, unfortunately a litter box (having a litter box in the living room sucks, but it makes it easier for him then using the basement one that Luna uses). I baby fed him his wet food last night and I'm going to get some more today, some of the cans with better food than what he has. I was also thinking of smooshing up his vitamin B pills (Amazon) and putting them in his food once a day. For me, money wouldn't be the issue if I had it. It's not like I need anything else and want to go shopping over helping him. I have a few bills I have to pay right now like rent and the gas bill, but everything else could get put off. But I still owe our vet from last time.

This morning when I woke up he was looking out the window. I put his harness on and attached a leash last night and took him outside and he was walking in the grass before plopping down in it. It looked like he wanted to either crawl under the porch or just go wander off into the night. He was meowing at the door last night till I took him out. He's always been an indoor kitty, so this is new. Today, he's still sitting by the door, and moving around a little more than yesterday. He still looks really bad, but maybe a teeny tiny bit better? I can't tell. He just tried coming upstairs and wound up falling back a few steps. I don't have two of those gates right now so I figured it was better to block him going down than up. Now he's in his kitty bed in the living room. He's still not eating but he is drinking water. Not a lot, and appropriate amount. I hope he' using the litter box, I haven't seen. I put him in it a few times and held him up, but he didn't go. Since I fed him last night and he's surrounded by junky treats in case no one's here I'm thinking he'll be okay on the food front. I'll baby feed him again before I head out to work and again when I get home.

I can deal with the insulin stuff after. It's a separate issue and it was making him miserable. My plan when he gets better is .5 units twice a day to start.

 

I just tested him again and he's at 311. As far as I know all he's had for food today was the wet food I put in the syringe earlier around 5. He might have had some crunchies, he looked interested, but he fell down after a bite and hobbled away. Right now he's back to not being able to walk. I don't know what else I can do for him. I gave him some water just now and tried to get him to use the litter box, but he didn't have to go or he's waiting to pee in the kitty bed later, which would mean another bath. This time I'll use a hair dryer to dry him if that happens again. He takes too long to dry naturally and shivers the whole time. I might try half a unit a little later and half again in the morning. Just enough for a little extra help without pushing it. The irony here, for me is it wasn't the stopping of the insulin when I ran out that did this, it was restarting it at the same level per the vet's advice.

 

I know you believe that restarting insulin caused the current state of affairs and I really don't want to debate that.

Although I strongly doubt that insulin is the root cause of Fluffer's problems ... it is possible, and I say this very cautiously, that insulin is a small contributing factor.

IF Fluffers already had low potassium (which can cause some of the stated symptoms), then it is technically possible that restarting insulin exacerbated the situation. Insulin pulls potassium into the cells and out of the circulating bloodstream. I had it happen with Charlie, who was already frail. His potassium was running low and insulin nudged him ever so slightly over the threshold into a critical situation. Yet he needed the insulin to avoid a slow and tortuous death. It was a slippery slope.

The only way to know for certain whether this might be happening with Fluffers, unfortunately, is to do bloodwork to check his potassium and other electrolyte levels. Guessing is not good enough, and avoiding insulin as a "solution" to the problem only brings on bigger problems. Not what you want to hear, I know.

We were ultimately able to get Charlie back on track but it required walking a fine line.

I know money doesn't grow on trees, and at this point I can think of at least 5 other things that could be causing the symptoms you're observing. I wish we could help ... But I do think that even a tiny amount of insulin is better than none.

 

I did give him a little with no response. He's completely unable to walk right now.

 

He can't move pretty much at all. I'm not sure if the vet will even take him at this point.

 

I’m so sorry this is happening to you. The only way to help your Fluffer is to get him in to see the vet. Do they have care credit at your vet? They will let you charge it. You could always try a different insulin once hes back on his feet. Good luck...

 

PLEASE take Fluffer to the vet. He is definitely very ill and you don't want him suffering needlessly.

 

Please please take cat to vet
This is called begging please

 

I took him to the vet. No ketones and his glucose isn't really high. He thinks itsi organ failure. He also has the same ear infection as last year. He said he can give him fluids and antibiotics, but if he's not better in the next day or two it's time to make one last appointment.

 

Oh I didnt see where u took him
I just dont want him suffering and I'm sure u dont either

 

How many days had it been since last vet visit

 

Poor baby. Sorry he's so sick

 

I'm sorry your Fluffer is such a sick furbaby!

 

He hasn't been to the vet in a while. They don't really do too much I can't do myself at home when either cat is "normal". For example: Luna hasn't been in a few years. She's 10, weighs 8 pounds all muscle and bounces around the apartment like she thinks she's 1. But I'll probably take her in the near future just for a checkup and shots even though she really doesn't need them being an indoor cat. She's also not a piggie like Fluffer. She eats just enough to survive. She's not into food like he was. She does like chewing on plastic, but I don't think she actually eats it, I just think she likes how it feels. She's also still into showers every day and being sprayed any time anyone uses water.

Fluffer was probably at the vet around 6 months ago to get his ear cleaned. The vet did say the last time he thought Fluffer was done he was nowhere near as bad as when he saw him today. There's not much we can do but watch him and wait to see if he gets better or worse. Last time he got the antibiotic shot he was sick for like two days before he got much, much better. So that's a possibility, but he's really weak right now. I just gave him water and he barely swallowed. I'm going to try wet food in a little bit. I'm hoping he has enough fight left, but if it is multiple organ failure not caused by his Diabetes, that's a separate issue. There's nothing we can do about that if that's what's going on. The vet could've done a full panel of tests to confirm, but it seemed like the watch and wait plan was better since even if that was the diagnosis there's nothing to be done about it. I'm really hoping he's just sick from his ear and not everything else. Tomorrow or the next day will be a really unpleasant trip to the vet if it isn't. Ironically less so for him, more-so for me. I told my wife if there were a way to give him some of my lifeforce, I would if it would keep him around for a while and give him a peaceful end some day, but, of course, that's not a possibility. The universe isn't that organized, apparently. And now I can't stop thinking about the visit tomorrow and what to do after.

 

So sorry to hear that it may be time to send Fluffer to the Bridge. We all know how you feel...if there was ANYTHING we could do to keep them with us longer, we'd do it but loving them the way we do, we also have to know when it's time to let them go no matter how much it hurts us.

If it comes to it, you might want to see if your vet will come to your home. Most will these days if you ask them or you may have to find a mobile vet.

Praying that Fluffer rallies and has more time to spend with you!!

 

Praying he gets to feeling better soon, sending healing vines, I'm sorry ur going through this tough time

 

Praying for you both.