In Ohio, My Kitty Boo

This week has been a very emotional week. Kitty Boo was loosing weight and had become lethargic. I took him to the vet on Monday and at first he said he thought he was in kidney failure and said it was up to me to do blood tests but that they would be $110.00. I cried..

A little history, I am a 2 times organ transplant on disability. Due to the costs of all my meds, and the limited income, I don't have any extra money for added expenses. My daughter had just gotten her taxes back, and offered to help me and she is currently living with me to help with my costs. There is no way I could pay for my house payment, utilities and food with the cost of my meds. I felt bad taking her tax money also (she pays part of my bills already).

I had a gut feeling that kitty boo was a diabetic as I noticed him drinking a lot and peeing a lot. So I went ahead and did the blood work..The doctor called me later and said his kidneys were fine, that his sugar was 426! So let's get going on helping him. He said that this was not good diagnosis as taking care of a diabetic cat is expensive...again I cried. So I went back to the vet to get his instructions.

Here is the instructions the vet gave me. He sold me Vetsulin 2 units 2 times a day before he eats. He gave me a bag of dry cat food...Royal Canin and to give him 1/2 cup 2 times a day and bring him back in a week. He showed me how to inject the insulin into his neck/shoulder area by pinching up the skin being careful not to put the syringe thru his skin but into the fold. Charged me another $125.00. When he told me to bring him back next Monday to have his glucose tested, the assistant told me that would be $39.00! I told her I was a diabetic and I have a glucometer, but she said they don't work for animals. I am concerned that $39.00 for a glucose test, I wondered to myself how often I would have to bring him..as I test 4-5 times a day on insulin and I am wondering how you can correctly monitor Kitty Boo's blood sugar by testing just 1 time. So I decided to do my own research.

Kitty Boo has been my companion for almost 13 years. He is a beautiful cat with a great personality and the most gorgeous eyes I have ever seen. He was born to a Hemmingway mother, but he took after his father and does not have the multi toes. His brothers do. I also have 2 of his brothers. Kitty Boo is the type of cat that is more like a dog. He greets everyone as they come over because I swear he thinks they are there to see him..or he has to give his approval..not sure which, but he loves petting and attention. Most cats seemed aloof, but kitty boo talks to me, and has been my best friend..he has been there with me through all of my medical problems, and it is time for me to take care of him. We are both getting older, and he deserves the best of care. I came to this board looking for help, and I have been reading a lot on your boards. I thank you for being here and if you have any questions, or suggestions, please let me know. I can use all the help I can get!!

 

Welcome Emma (assuming that's your name) and extra sweet Boo!

Yes you CAN use your test meter for your kitty! Technically it's not calibrated for pets but that's no big deal - 'Normal' for a pet with a human meter is 50-130-ish. Vets like to sell you that expensive 'pet' meter, the strips are VERY expensive. Since you already have meter and strips, you can do your own testing. You don't give YOURSELF insulin without testing first, why would we do it to our kitties? 'We' test before each shot and somewhere mid-cycle to be sure they're still safe and insulin is working.

What kind of insulin do YOU take? I know vet put BooKitty on Vetsulin but you don't have to stay on it. We actually find that Lantus, Levemir and PZI are the best for kitties. Sharing your insulin with Boo would also cut your costs.

Most of us don't have our vets test nor manage dose changes - saves BIG TIME money too!

Take that expensive DRY food back and tell the vet Boo won't eat it...then head to any store for Friskies pate's and Fancy Feast 'classics' (also pate's). The gravy food will spike his sugar so stay with the ground foods. Dry food is HUGE in carbs and BAD BAD for Boo! Just changing food may cause his numbers to be lower so testing is VERY IMPORTANT right now! We can help you learn! It's no big deal - my two diabetics come running when their meter beeps.

BIG HUGS!

 

Vet stress may raise the glucose 100 -180 mg/dL.

Diet change may lower the glucose as much as 100 mg/dL.

Start with a low dose of 0.5 to 1.0 units if you are doing both a food change and starting insulin so you are less likely to risk hypoglycemia - glucose that is too low. It can kill.

 

Hi Emma and Boo!

Welcome to FDMB!

I just wanted to tell you your vet is over charging you and man do I get upset when they do that. :twisted: The folks here will help you as they already have. You being diabetic is actually a good thing for Boo since he can use your meter and your insulin! Cost 0.00! :lol:

Just listen to the kind folks here because they really are experts and if you can get a SS going for Boo that will help them help you. You can home test him in his ear just like you prick your finger. You don't have to take him to the Vet for that so save your money and cancel the appointment on Monday. fancy feast cat food was 44 cents a can today at walmart and test strips for Scooters meter were 9.00 for 50 and his meter was only 16.00. So hopefully that will put you at ease a bit on price. Remember you wont be buying kibble anymore.

Just ask questions you will get answers!!
This is one of the greatest place on earth!

Linda

 

thank you so much for your information, so I don't need the vet to follow him? I can do this myself and use my Lantus/Levimer? I use Levimer and I have some Lantus (I used to use) in the fridge. It is a flex pen..is that ok to use? do I need the vet's approval or do I just do this myself? I manage my own diabetes and keep my A1C at 5.8 to 6.1 with diet and exercise..so I do the same for kittyboo? I am a little scared yet, and I have been in touch with a group that will help pay for kitty boo's meds..but I need a prescription..I know my insulin is expensive, so I wait each year until I am through the "donut" hole and get enough to last me. With my transplant meds, I get into the donut hole immediately, so I have to wait on my regular prescriptions until I get through. I get help with patient assistance each year to get my through the donut hole. I try to keep 6 months of insulin on hand for me. You mentioned canned cat food. I have heard that fancy feast is good as it is high in protein. I got him some..30% protein prior to taking him to the vet..so is the canned food higher? What should I look for? I will go to walmart today to get some food.

Just a little scared, nervous. I guess..worried I won't do this right.

thanks a lot for you help!

Emma (it is my name)

 

Yes, you can use either Lantus or Levemir (pick one and stick with it). I would at the very least advise your vet that's what you want them to do and have them write out a prescription for it (that you don't really need to fill since you already have it on hand). If they won't do it, switch vets. You want a vet willing to work with you and who is up-to-date (or at least willing to be educated) on the latest treatments for feline diabetes, which includes using the right insulin (Lantus, Levemir, or ProZinc/PZI).

Cats metabolize insulin a little differently than humans and have a slightly different reference range for BGs. For example, Lantus and Levemir are dosed twice a day, every 12 hours, and the dose is much smaller (usual starting dose is around 1u). You can use the pens, however, you want to use syringes and NOT the needle tips and draw the insulin from the pen like it's a mini vial. This is because dosing changes are done in .25u increments (since cats are so much smaller than humans) and the pen tips only dose in whole units.

For food, the Cat Info.org website has a nutritional information list on most of the commercial canned food available (you want anything less than 10% carbs, the lower the better).

 

Yes, you should get a prescription from a vet.

You can do a lot of the management at home - home testing means you don't need to take him in to the vet, you can do occasional curves at home (serial glucose tests from shot to shot).

Friskies pates are the least expensive; Fancy feast is roughly double that and only comes in 3 oz cans.

What city are you in? If anywhere near Columbus, Northarlington Vet is where I go. She is willing to prescribe Lantus and is more experienced with ProZinc.

 

I live on the Southside of Columbus. So I am thinking to keep the appointment tomorrow with the vet (I will charge the visit), get the testing and then ask him to discuss options where I can discuss him prescribing Lantus/levemir either or, check his blood sugar.(I will make him do it in front of me so I can make sure he does an ear stick) that way I can see how he does it, and see what kitty boo's sugar is fasting tomorrow after a week on 2 units of vetsulin. At least maybe we will have a basis to move forward and hopefully he will cooperate with me. If he chooses not to, then I will be looking for a new vet. When you say North Arlington...are you talking Upper Arlington? Would that be above campus, or is it closer to Hilliard? I know you can get there both ways. I live down by Scioto Downs off Lockbourne Road.

Emma

 

What is ProZinc? I haven't seen it posted yet. I am trying to read as much of the boards as possible this weekend.
Should I ask the vet to check his urine to make sure it it ok? I know his kidneys (via blood work) was good. and I guess all of his counts were good. They did CBC/liver/kidney functions

 

Emma,

I am on the south side of Columbus as well in Obetz. If you need any help please let me know, I can PM you my phone number. Do you live in Hamilton Meadows?
What vet are you currently using?

Terri

 

I live on Lavender lane. Please message me your phone number. I am using Parsons animal clinic

 

I think it is called Hamilton Heights

 

What do you want them to check for in the urine?
Ketones? A blood test is better.
Infection? They should do that as a cystocentesis (sterile needle withdrawal of urine).
The fructosamine is a blood test using blood generally drawn from the leg, not the ear. Bring your meter to compare to the lab's equipment and test from the same blood at the same time it is drawn. Note that they will be different and the human glucometer is likely to read lower by as much as 30 -40%, depending on how he is.

Yes, I'm in NW Columbus; my vet is on Dierker Rd, about 1.5 miles west of State Route 315. Probably more expensive than the Parsons Rd vet.

I mention ProZinc and PZI as they are both good and there's less sticker shock than Lantus. I got a quote from the SAM's club on Sawmill Rd with a Lantus pen 5 pack at over $300. Makes me want to get a passport so I can drive up into Canada to get it!

 

Today I took kitty boo back to his vet and he checked is blood sugar. It was 346 and I also did it on my test meter and it was 341 to they were close. I asked him about switching him to Lantus and so he is ok with that. He told me to give him 2 units, but I understand since he only weighs 9 pounds, he should be on a lower dose. He told me I could go ahead and monitor his blood sugar and to follow up with him as needed..preferably at least every 6 months, but if I have any problems to call them. He was very nice and helpful. Terri called me and offered to show me how to do a BG test on boo. He was also good with switching him to wet food. So I went to Kroger last night and got him 24 cans of Friskies pates as they are on sale this week for .50 cents a can. He said I could also give him the dry in his dish to nibble on as a snack as he needs now to gain weight.

Charge today..$39.00

Emma

 

So he's a bit underweight. That will come back as he gets regulated. It helps to feed several small means or leave the food out for 10 hours after each shot. You pick it up 2 hours before the next shot so the next test is not a food influenced number.

The formula to estimate his starting dose is as follows:
The lower of his current weight or ideal weight
In kilograms (pounds divided by 2.2)
Multiplied by 0.25
Rounded down to nearest quarter unit.

If the lower is his current weight (9 pounds), the starting dose should be about 1 unit, every 12 hours.

 

BJ,

I told Emma that 2 units twice a day would be to high of a starting dose for Lantus since Boo only weighs 9lbs per our conversation on the phone. Thank you as you have confirmed his starting dose should be 1unit every 12 hours which is what I calculated as well.

Terri

 

Thank you so much! I will go ahead and switch him over tonight with his 1 unit 2 times a day. I put out 1 can of wet cat food in the morning and leave it all day for him to finish? And if he finishes it I can give him more? I have been feeding him 2 times a day. I feed him in the morning and give him his shot, then feed him in the evening and give him his shot. Should I feed him during the day? If so should it be wet food or dry? Can he have snacks and if so when or what kind?

could someone give me a sample day? Do I test his blood sugar before each meal? after a meal? 2 hours after? morning..mid day...night?

Emma

 

Canned low carb food may be left out for 10 hours at each feeding time. (Test, feed, and shoot within about 15 minutes)

Low carb treats may be given, such as freeze dried meat, fish, or poultry, or cooked pieces of meat.

If the pre-shot test is under 200, wait 30 minutes without feeding and retest. If still below 200 check in with us.

Test around +5 to +7 hours after the shot to see how low the glucose is going. Below 50 mg/dL is an automatic dose reduction.

Also, if Kitty Boo goes below 50 mg/dL, feed 1-2 teaspoons high carb food, post here for support and feedback, wait 20 min, retest. repeat until in safe numbers and rising.

 

Emma,

Have you been able to test Kitty Boo yet? Please try to test him if you can using the ears and if you need help please let us know. We must be able to know what his numbers are.

Terri

 

Not yet. I plan to do it this evening. I have had a most eventful day and have only checked my own only once this morning. I am hoping things will calm down after dinner and I can get a reading for him. I am a little scared to do it. I read all about it from the earlier posts that were shared with me, and I know that it may take a few tries, but it also suggests to have another person to help the first time, so I am waiting on my daughter to help so I need to wait til after dinner. He ate all of his food this morning and I went ahead and put a little more out for him.

 

I am so frustrated trying to get a picture of kitty boo on my profile. Is there anyone out there that can do it for me if I email it to you and you can email me back?

I have used every program I could find to resize it and got it down to less than 9 kb but I can't get the pixels as there is no where I can remove the pixels cat(2)_steam

 

Perhaps this post in our Tech support section will help.

 

That didn't work either even the file size is the right size. it is given me a pixel error still

 

got it! You have to go to custom and reduce down to 90 on the setting!

 

What a pretty Kitty Boo!

 

Thank you..that was taken a few years ago.

 

I hope someone is still monitoring this as kitty boo has stopped eating and drinking. I noticed he didn't eat all of his food that I put out yesterday morning so last night I went to give him his food and he just walked away, so I didn't give him his shot. I was up with him all night petting him and talking to him, but he hasn't touched his food.

I even tried giving him the Sheba pate (which is usually a eat it up right away) as opposed to the Friskies Pate. No bathroom no water and no food. I have not given him his shot last night nor this morning. Should I take him to hospital? or wait and see if he eats today..by the way, Boo has always been a vomiting cat..but lately he is vomiting liquid, sometimes clear, and sometimes with a pink or red tint and when he vomits he cries out like it hurts.

Please anyone help? My phone number is 614-748-1044

Emma :cry:

 

Vomiting pink suggests bleeding and a vet visit is needed.
Not being able to eat for 2 days or more puts the cat at risk for hepatic lipidosis, which can be fatal. Again, a vet visit is needed.

If the stomach is upset, 1/4 of a tablet of regular Pepcid (nothing but famotidine), given 20 min or so before eating can help. I think the vet visit should happen regardless.

 

I agree with BJ. My kitty wouldn't eat at one time and I took her to the vet. If your cat is sick, they can help. They can also give appetite stimulanys, fluids etc. please let us know how it goes!

 

Emma,

Please take Kitty Boo to the vet he probably either has pancreatitis or ketones. I would call right now and get him him.

Terri

 

I have an appt for 10:00 so I will be taking him. However I just went upstairs to his room and he was drinking water..and he used his litter box and peed. He snubbed his nose at the food in his bowl, however I opened a fresh can, and spoon fed him and he ate just a little, maybe like an ounce or less...his eyes and attitude seems good, responds well. I am going to have him checked out since it has been a couple months since he has been seen. Just don't have like $100 to spend right now... :cry:

 

What are his BG levels this morning?

Terri

 

they were 203 this morning..I didn't give shot last night or this morning.

 

I would have them check him for pancreatitis, although I am not sure if he could still have ketones I have no experience with a cat having ketones.
My guess would be pancreatitis, but if they can check him for ketones it should would not hurt.

Terri

 

how do they check for pancreatitis?

 

Spec fPl test I think, there are two but I think that is the most accurate.

 

Marje who posts over on the Lantus board wrote a very good article on pancreatitis.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=79693&p=1219206&hilit=Primer+on+Pancreatitis#p1219206

 

Also, there is a Feline Pancreatitis Support Group on Yahoo - https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Feline_Pancreatitis_Support/info

 

Can you give us some BG readings over the last week or so? There might be something going on, like not enough insulin or maybe too much. Would need to see data to know.

 

Took him to the vet and he did blood work. Boo had gained 2 1/2 pounds and the Vet was very impressed with how well he is doing. However by the time I was seen at the vet his bs was up to 400 because I didn't give him his shot last night nor that morning due to him not eating. His kidneys are normal however his BUN is at the high normal. He told me that I would have trouble stabilizing his blood sugar with what he calls regular food even though I had him on Pate'. So I went ahead and splurged for the diabetic food this time and bought the 3 oz cans, and also a bag of dry as he can nibble on it anytime he said. We upped his insulin from 2 units every 12 hours to 3 units in the evening and 2 units in the morning. I am to call him in the morning. So when I returned from buying the diabetic food, I opened a can and he began eating it..and I wanted me to give him 3 units then and then give him 2 units tonight..then put his food up at midnight and then retest his BS at 8:00 and if it is still high, to go ahead and do 3 units..and then recheck in the evening before he eats and he will either get 2 units or 3 units. He is up to 11.9 pounds now.

 

I am not surprised he was high with no shot, plus vet stress. So the 400 isn't a real number.

What kind of dry food is it? Diabetic dry is usually over 15% carbs so likely his regulation issues are going to get even worse. I can recommend a low carb dry if you want to try that.

Also that mixed dosing is not the way lantus is usually dosed.... Because lantus is a depot insulin, any change needs to settle in the cats system.

If you can get 3 tests a day for a few days before you start the dry food, we may be able to really help advise what's going on. We look at hundreds of diabetic cats every day and might be able to tweak him towards remission.

Wendy

 

Thanks Wendy. The dry cat food is the diabetic made by Royal Canin. I don't know the content but don't a diabetic cat need more than just meat? If they have zero carbs won't that put them in Ketosis?? wouldn't that be hard on the kidneys? I know nothing about diabetes in cats, only in humans, and I have to have some carbs in my diet to get all the vitamin and nutrients, and I just adjust my insulin accordingly.

Today he is still just laying around sleeping, and about 6:00 this morning he was vomiting again as there were 6 little puddles on his floor that I had to clean up, this time the puddle colors were tan not pink, but there were 6 small ones, where he moved around the floor..didn't see anything in them, and he still hadn't eaten all of his canned food from last night..where I gave him a 3 oz can of royal canin diabetic. That is all I am giving him right now. I gave him 2 units of Lantus this morning.

Emma

 

Cats are obligate carnivores (humans are omnivores), which means they do not need fruits, nor vegetables, nor grains. The cat can break down both protein and fat and create glucose as needed.

 

Ok because he is still vomiting (this time it is the color of ice tea), the vet wants me to bring him back at 2:00 for a shot for him vomiting???? I am so confused and so scared...I wish I knew what to do. He is not eating, and is just vomiting with a yelp.

Is he is pain? Is this good for him? I love him and don't want him to suffer and my daughter is telling me he needs to be put down, but I think he can still be ok? He still gets on my lap and lets me pet him, he is crying or moaning...he is just sitting in the sunlight like he always does...dosing.

Help????!!

Emma

BTW it will cost another $28.00 for this shot...and it is good only for 24 hours?

 

So went to the vet and she gave him a shot for vomiting, and I brought him home and put a fresh can of cat food. Terri had called earlier and offered to come to my house to help me with Boo. She came over and we checked Kitty Boo's BS and it was 121. She brought me a meter and a few test strips. The vet said the cat was not in ketoacidocous but told me how to check for ketones. Terri and I discussed what could possibly be wrong as all of his blood work is good. So it may have been all the company I had at my house on Sunday and it stressed out Boo. Anyway, I feel much better. Boo had eaten a little bit of his food, so this BS was after he ate. I have a question for the board though...

If kitty boo's BS is 121 or lower when I feed him at 10:00 tonight, do I still give him the 2 units, do I reduce it, or do I feed him and then wait for 2 hours, test him, and then see what I should give him as at midnight when I go to bed, I take up his food, so I can test his BS tomorrow morning? I am not sure what to do. I have been feeding him and giving him his 2 units but that was when he was eating his whole 3 ounces of cat food. Now or until he returns to his normal eating, I am lost.

Emma & kitty Boo

 

Emma,

Just check to make sure those strips are not expired, I did not think to do so. Emma if you have to tonight and need immediate help, please post over on the Lantus board and put up a 911 icon for help right away. There are many more people on that board than here.

Terri

 

Thank you very much! I really appreciate that you took the time to come over today to help me. I feel more comfortable now to test Kitty Boo's Blood Sugars. And maybe he will continue to rebound from this little set back.

Emma

 

1) wait 30 min and retest
a) if he is still below 150 mg/dL, I think I'd skip tonight and start over in the morning.
b) if he has risen above 150 mg and you'll be able to monitor, you might stick with 1 unit.

The formula for calculating the starting Lantus does uses the following steps:
How much does he weigh?
How much should he weigh - more? less?
Take the lower weight.
Convert it to kilograms (ie pounds/2.2).
Multiply by 0.25,
Round down to the nearest quarter unit.
That is the dose you might stick with for the next 5 days, so long as he remains above 50 mg/dL - a safe level

 

Thank you..I know what he weighs but don't know what he should weigh..he was a big cat and weighed 20 pounds prior to diabetes. I might guess about 15 pounds? He was down to 9 pounds in February, and he has gained over 2 pounds and now weighs 11.9 pounds. So not sure but the vet told me 2 units was what I was up to..Started out on 1 unit and went up gradually since Feb to 2 units but yesterday he had a blood sugar of 465 or something like that...today he was 121 after eating when I brought him home after he had the vomit shot, I fed him and he did eat about 1/4 of his 3 ounce can.

Emma

 

I would measure him and see where he is. If he is over 200 I would shoot 1.5 units at the most. But if not, don't feed him, come on here and let us know where he is. We may wait 30 minutes to see what he does without food.

If after 30minutes he still isn't over 150 then skip.

I will be here. Let me know what the test number is.

Wendy

 

I will do that. I will be doing one here shortly. Thanks!

 

Wow..so now it is 427...so now I am doubting the afternoon reading..yes he ate a little more of his canned food, but shouldn't have jumped like that? So what do I do??

 

You are fine to shoot.

I suspect he is bouncing. Bouncing happens when the cat blood glucose drops low, or lower than its body is used to.. Since it's become used to being high! The liver panics at the "low" and causes the blood sugar to rise artificially. The blood sugar will sit high for up to 72 hours, no matter that you are shooting insulin, and then come back down again.

The important thing is we need to know how low he went. If it was under 50 it might explain him not feeling well. And if it was under 50 it means his insulin dose was too high.

So now we need to catch the next low. So hold the same dose (I would choose 1.5 units) for 3 days and test to see how low it takes him once the bounce clears. I would test before every shot, plus a test during the day and one before bed. Once you see his numbers drop, which could take a couple of days, start to test every 2-3 hours , or more often if it looks like he will go under 50. And keep us updated.

Wendy

 

Because he wasn't eating, he might have gone lower than normal, or lower fast, either can trigger a bounce.

Really keep an eye on his eating, as vomiting, diarrhea,or lack of appetite can really drop numbers if you don't spot it. My first diabetic, Spitzer, developed IBD, and it was nearly impossible to use Lantus at a stable higher dose because he'd have an episode of vomiting and it would be too much. I had to get creative and use supplemental short acting insulin to handle when he was higher.

 

Thank you. I will do give him 1.5 units. I don't know how low he went or even if he went low? So in the morning I will check it again, before he eats and if it is the same..like 400's I should give him 1.5 again...and keep going with that for 3 days...keeping track of mornings, before he eats..afternoon..and before he eats at night. I will post every time I check it and will monitor his food..giving him only the Royal Canin wet canned food.

Am I understanding right? I am going to give him his 1.5..should I wait a couple hours and retest before I go to bed?

BJM. You mentioned about the short acting...you see...I am a diabetic, and sometimes I get a bounce if I may have gone low at night, but my sugars will be high the next morning, but I still have to get it back down in the normal range, so I use the short acting and do my carb count to eat and then the extra and give my short acting..humalog or novalog.

Boo is having some bad gas..(which he never has had before) not sure if it is this new food. Never had diarrhea, but his stool has been less consistency and stinks to high heaven.

 

If his pancreas is inflamed, it may be disrupting normal digestive enzyme production. That, or a bacterial overgrowth in the GI tract (among other things) can cause very foul smelling feces. This is something to discuss with the vet. It could be worth an empirical trial of pancreatic enzyme supplements and something to treat a bacterial diarrhea.

The bolus principle is the same, however we don't suggest that for new folks managing feline diabetes. We like to get them steady on the primary, long acting insulin first, then determine if there may be special circumstances to be managed, such as acromegaly, Cushings, or insulin autoantibodies (IAA).

 

The vet said he didn't have pancreatitis. I read the article on this, and looking at all of his blood work which is normal..only thing that was maybe a watch is his BUN was a high normal.

The only other way to tell would be to have that one test done, and right now I don't have the funds to do that. In February I paid over $300 out and couldn't afford my meds..now in May I have paid out over $200. I am on SSDI and I only get so much a month, so I have no way of getting extra money. I have given up taking some of my meds in order to get him help. I am through the donut hole now, so my meds are less expensive, but I still don't have extra.

This morning his BS was 321. I gave him his 1.5 units of Lantus.

Emma

 

Ok, today I am told that the Royal Canin is not an appropriate food for Boo. However i am concerned as I was feeding him the Friskies pate and he stopped eating it. I have a spread sheet that was given to me...but..money is a problem, and if raw food is better for him, what all raw food can he have. I mean I can give him like fish that i make for me like Salmon? Cod? or do I do the chicken, tuna, turkey? can it be cooked or just raw?

Food is confusing for me now.

Emma

 

I have been reading catinfo.org about cat food. I found that the Friskies Pate had 9 grams of carbs and this was what I was feeding boo when he had his incident. I don't know if the vomiting and not eating made him go low, or I don't know..I am so confused right now as to which way to go. I bought the Royal Canin because that is what the vet recommends..but now I find out it is not good for Boo.

He is sleeping at my feet today. He has jumped up on my lap a couple of times but now is just resting on my shoe. :?

So I guess I should go back to the Friskies? I still have a lot of it...or am I changing too many things?

Emma

 

Emma,

Its not good to feed a cat very much fish flavors, its just not good for them. Maybe once in awhile but not all the time. There is nothing wrong with feeding Boo the pate foods if he will eat them. That's what most people here feed their diabetic cats.

Terri

 

Ok afternoon BS is 131 just like yesterday so what is happening if it jumps up again?

Emma

 

Emma

Did you go buy new strips? Those strips might not be good. Remember we also talked about the ketostix. Did you get those yet? Is Boo eating?

Terri

 

Yes I went and got some new strips. I know with me strips need to be used within 3 months of opening? Not sure with the cat...seems everything is different. Yes I got the keto, but I need to figure out a way to test him because I don't always catch him peeing. I don't have any funds left (actually I think I am in the hole..watching the bank account everyday) hopefully I don't bounce or go negative...but I have been emailing with Venita, but i found out I bought the cheapest, but not the right ones for them, so she will send me ones that fit your meter you gave me.

Emma

 

Did you check any of the other Financial Aid Resources?

 

No I haven't as I do not know of any of the others. If you would please share where I can find a list of them?



Also Kitty Boo's BS last night at night feeding was 257

This morning it was 259

I am still on 1.5 units

Also Venita told me there is a spreadsheet that I could use for Kitty Boo's BS..could someone tell me where that is located?

Emma Birch

 

Text with a blue color and underlined is called a hyperlink.
Look at my previous post.
It has a hyperlink in it.
If you click on the hyperlink in my previous post, it takes you to some info on financial aid.

 

Hi Emma,

I don't think I have welcomed you yet, so welcome! I'm so sorry you have to be here, but I'm really glad you found this site. There are a lot of wonderful people here who can help you and Boo. Getting everything set up and "figured out" (food, shot times, spreadsheets, etc.) can be overwhelming, I know.

I saw that you had asked about the spreadsheet. Click on this link here: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?p=179835#p179835. It gives you instructions on how to set one up and gives you a link to the template we use. If you have any problems setting one up, just let us know. There are some great tech people here who can get one going for you in no time.

 

Thank you all for the information.

Last night I could not get a blood glucose for Kitty Boo, Is there maybe because I have stuck him too many times and his ears are hurting? He kept jerking away from me last night and I tried and tried, but to no avail.

This morning his sugar was 294. It seems it is running consistently in the 200's..and his appetite is back and he is eating well. Now for a 12 pound cat, how much of the Friskies should he be eating? And is it safe now to return to his 2 units of insulin yet? At 2 units he was doing well..eating and gaining weight, until the episode happened on Sunday, and i am not sure what happened whether he happened to get into the other cat's food? Someone fed him something, or someone dropped crumbs of something? I don't know.

Also I called Royal Canin yesterday and found out the dry food has 28 grams of carbs for a 1 cup serving. I never gave him this much, I would put 1/2 cup in his bowl and he would only "snack" on it along with his wet food..it helped me to transition him over to wet food. He was raised on Hill's Science Diet dry since he was a kitten, and until Feb with his diabetic diagnosis, he was always a healthy, happy Kitty. So understandably I had to transition him over to wet food. Also I found out that their "wet food" (Royal Canin) has only 2 grams of carbs per can and a cat his size should be eating a little over 3 cans a day. I told them Kitty Boo does not like their food, so they said I could return it. I have him on the Friskies Pate..sticking with the chicken, turkey etc instead of the fish flavors. He seems to like those better.

Thanks for the help..but if I could get these questions answered, I would appreciate it.

Emma

 

Thank you all for the information.

Last night I could not get a blood glucose for Kitty Boo, Is there maybe because I have stuck him too many times and his ears are hurting? He kept jerking away from me last night and I tried and tried, but to no avail.

This morning his sugar was 294. It seems it is running consistently in the 200's..and his appetite is back and he is eating well. Now for a 12 pound cat, how much of the Friskies should he be eating? And is it safe now to return to his 2 units of insulin yet? At 2 units he was doing well..eating and gaining weight, until the episode happened on Sunday, and i am not sure what happened whether he happened to get into the other cat's food? Someone fed him something, or someone dropped crumbs of something? I don't know.

Also I called Royal Canin yesterday and found out the dry food has 28 grams of carbs for a 1 cup serving. I never gave him this much, I would put 1/2 cup in his bowl and he would only "snack" on it along with his wet food..it helped me to transition him over to wet food. He was raised on Hill's Science Diet dry since he was a kitten, and until Feb with his diabetic diagnosis, he was always a healthy, happy Kitty. So understandably I had to transition him over to wet food. Also I found out that their "wet food" (Royal Canin) has only 2 grams of carbs per can and a cat his size should be eating a little over 3 cans a day. I told them Kitty Boo does not like their food, so they said I could return it. I have him on the Friskies Pate..sticking with the chicken, turkey etc instead of the fish flavors. He seems to like those better.

Thanks for the help..but if I could get these questions answered, I would appreciate it.

Emma

 

The 3 large cats in the back third of my basement (with windows), including my diabetic Gracie, share a 13 oz can of Friskies pate am and pm. I divvy it up with a bit more going to Mason, as he is a larger cat than the other 2.

p.s. they are in that area because the younger cats bother them and they cannot or will not defend themselves. That results in urine everywhere but the litter boxes, loud scuffles, and occasional punctures.

 

This morning his sugar was 199. first time under 200.. I will ask again...do I continue on the 1.5 units? What goal for his sugar?

Emma

 

We really need a listing of the numbers you've been getting, as it is the whole day profiles which guide dosing.

AM pre-shot test (AMPS )=
Units given =

+2, that means any test given 2 hours after a shot, if you do a test

+5 means any test given 5 hours after a shot , if you do a test
+7 means any test given 7 hours after a shot , if you do a test
etc.
PM pre-shot (PMPS)

Lantus drops the glucose lowest somewhere between +5 and +7

Stick with your 1.5 unit dose unless he goes below 50 mg/dL.

If he goes below 50, you start giving high carb gravy or syrup in small amounts, waiting 20 minutes, re-resting, and then repeating if still low.

 

I am confused because I was told to do morning, evening (before feeding) and one mid afternoon. Keep him at 1.5 for 3 days...

Now you want me to test how often and feed? I have been posting his blood sugars and did them all except one night when he refused to let me..I posted I thought his ear was sore, is that possible? Only because it takes me 4 or 5 tries to get his BS and I have tried both ears. Maybe I am not doing it right? I am so scared I am not doing right by him.... :cry:

 

Hi Emma,

I don't think BJ (BJM) meant that you were supposed to test at those times. She was just giving you an example of how we provide test results. For instance, if you tested 2 hours after you gave Boo the morning shot, we would report that as: AM+2 = 127. That's just an example.

Can we help you get a spreadsheet set up? If we can, let us know. That's one of the easiest ways you can report your numbers.

It's possible that the kitty's ears can get sore. One thing you can do is put Neosporin on his ear after you test. (We use the gel rather than the cream.)

Are there other questions you have that we can answer? Don't be afraid to ask!
Shelly

 

Thank you Shelly. So let me get this straight, like I usually test him in the morning before his morning feed..so I enter that...but maybe if he wouldn't let me test, or I forget or something, when I do test like if it was 2 hours later I use +2 right? and if I do a mid day...I count the number of hours that have passed since his previous shot?

Yes I do need help setting up a spreadsheet. Thanks

Emma

 

Exactly.

I edited my previous post to reflect it is IF you do a test # hours after insulin, you designate it +#.

A traditional curve is to take serial measurements every two hours beginning with the pre-shot test and going until the next pre-shot. This is what a vet typically does if you bring your cat in for a curve.

A mini curve is to take serial measurements every 3 hours from pre-shot to pre-shot.

 

That's right, Emma. It's really important to get blood sugar readings before you give insulin. That reading you get in the morning is called the "AMPS" and the one you get in the evening is called the "PMPS." Then you just count from those. So.....if you gave your morning insulin at AMPS and then checked the sugar again 5 hours later, that reading would be called the "AM+5" because it was taken 5 hours after you gave the morning shot.

Let me try to pull together some really easy instructions for you on setting up your spreadsheet. I'm not the most technically savvy person - otherwise I would just set one up for you!

 

We use Google Drive and a spreadsheet/grid so you can track the glucose numbers, then share them for review and feedback.
Instructions are here.

Understanding the spreadsheet/grid:

The colored headings at the top are the ranges of glucose values. They are color-coded to clue you in as to meaning.

Each day is 1 row. Each column stores different data for the day.

From left to right, you enter
the Date in the first column
the AMPS (morning pre-shot test) in the 2nd column
the Units given (turquoise column)

Then, there are 11 columns labeled +1 through +11
If you test at +5 (5 hours after the shot), you enter the test number in the +5 column
If you test at +7 (7 hours after the shot), you enter the test number in the +7 column
and so on.

Halfway across the page is the column for PMPS (evening pre-shot)
To the right is another turquoise column for Units given at the evening shot.

There is second set of columns labeled +1 through +11
If you snag a before bed test at +3, you enter the test number in the +3 column.

We separate day and night numbers like that because many cats go lower at night.

It is merely a grid for storing the info; no math required.

 

Hi Emma,

I sent you a PM (private message) with instructions for setting up a spreadsheet. Look at the top left-hand side of this page. Next to "User Control Panel" you should see "1 new message." Click on the "1" and it will open up my message. (Sorry - I don't know if you've used the private message system here yet. That's why I'm giving you directions on it.)

Shelly

 

Got it :smile: thank you!

 

Tonight he was 321. So I did 1.5 units and fed him. I also got the spreed sheet completed for today. Let me know if it is done right?

Thanks

Emma

 

You did your spreadsheet perfectly, Emma. Yay! Have you been collecting data before today? If so, I would encourage you to put in whatever numbers you have for the other days, too. That will help those who give you dosing advice see the "big picture" a little more clearly. (You can click on my spreadsheet link down at the bottom of this post to see an example of how I listed the numbers for each day. Click on the one that says "Jersey's SS.")

Can I verify which insulin you use for Boo? Is it Lantus? We have a couple of different sections set up on FDMB for people who are using Lantus. One of them is called the "Relaxed Lantus" group. The other is called the "Tight Regulation" group. I would encourage you to start posting on one of those boards. If you'll post Boo's numbers there each day, there will be users of Lantus who will be able to help you with the dosing. To locate the groups I'm talking about, click on the "Board Index" button at the top left of this page. Then click on "Insulin Support Groups." This will bring up a list of the different support groups we have for the various types of insulin.

Do you have any questions about any of this?
Shelly

 

No questions right now, thanks Shelly! I am going to bed now, so I may get a chance to update those tomorrow. However it is Mother's Day so I am not sure what is on the schedule. (never know till the last minute on anything with my family!) But I have numbers for him all week. I stayed up tonight to watch the NASCAR race. Yeah Jeff Gordon won! So it was worth it. Happy Mother's Day. Hope you have a good day. I will get to those boards either tomorrow or next week.

Emma & Kitty boo

 

Hope you have a great Mother's Day, Emma. You'll just need to decide if you want to go with the "tight regulation" group or the "relaxed lantus" group. Then just post on the appropriate board!

 

How do I update my spreadsheet? If I do it on my computer..does it update online?

Emma

 

Hi Emma, I'm new here too, but saw your post this morning. You're doing a great job! To update your spreadsheet, just log into Google Drive and click on your document. It automatically saves itself and then we can all see it here on the forum, it's pretty slick how this is all set up. It just took me way to long to figure it out, but as you can see, there are so many wonderful people that are going to help you in any way, any time.

 

Ok I have finally update his blood sugars so if you would look at them and let me know if I should increase insulin or not, or maybe I need to do that over on the Lantus boards...but someone told me about putting Neosporin gel on kitty boo's ears, and I can't find get. There is creme and ointment or creme and ointment with pain relievers. Which one do I get?

Thanks

Emma

 

Hi Emma,

Good job getting the numbers on the spreadsheet. Although these numbers can help a little, dosing is based on the where the blood sugar is at in the middle of the cycle. For Lantus, most kitties reach what is called "nadir" 5 to 7 hours after the shot. That is when blood sugar is at it's lowest. Without getting in those mid-cycle tests, we have no idea if the current dose is taking Boo too low, keeping Boo too high, or just the right amount. Can you get some of those tests in? That will really help people who are trying to help you with the dose.

I would encourage you to post on one of the Lantus boards. That's where you'll be able to get the most help with Lantus dosing. Just pick one of them to post to - either the "Relaxed Lantus" group or the "Tight Regulation" group.

It was probably me who told you about the Neosporin "gel." I'm sorry about that - I should have said the Neosporin ointment. The ointment looks like a clear gel when it comes out of the tube, so that's how we always referred to it in my house. I keep using our slang word for it now on this site. ohmygod_smile Again - my apologies!

EDIT: I'm so glad to see you found your way to the Relaxed Lantus group! You should be able to get a lot of help there.

Shelly

 

Yes, thank you. I got some time today to go there. I don't know if you all know, but I need to say a little about my health as the reason this is hard for me. I have Hep C. I got it during my child birth years by receiving blood and blood products (I am an O neg mother). I have had 2 liver transplants (they were 9 months apart) so i went thru liver failure twice. Now I have the opportunity to try the new medication that is working great on eradicating the virus. I started it on May 2nd. The side effects so far that I see is extreme fatigue. So tired that I feel like my arms and legs weigh a ton and every muscle in my body feels like it has the flu. It is really hard just to make it thru the day.

I will try to get a few mid day sugars, however he is fighting me on this and the only way I have been able to get the others is that he don't get his yum yum until I get his BS. After 4 times of sticking now, I stop whether I have it or not.

Emma

 

We often go with a '3 tries & stop' on the ear pricks, so no worries. You'll get it. Giving a low carb treat when you test may help reduce some of the resistance.

In my signature, there is a link to Secondary Monitoring Tools which also help you assess how your cat is doing. They are supplemental, that is, you don't have to do them. However, when you can't test, they may provide critical info - ex ketone testing.

 

I remember reading something about their breath stinking. Boos is smelling awful :cry:

 

How do his teeth look? Do you see tartar on the teeth? Red gingivitis along the gums? Any abscesses? Oral infection may reek.

How much urine output is there? Does the breath smell like urine (a sign of possible kidney failure)?

Does the breath smell fruity or like nail polish remover? Two of 3 types of ketones have distinctive odor like that.

 

I actually smells like he has been eating poopy! It is like he is passing gas out of his mouth! Yuck!

 

What does the vet say about that?

 

I haven't asked the vet about this yet. I am just trying to find out if this is typical?

 

Unless he recently cleaned there, I don't think that is what I've normally smelled from my cats mouths.

 

When was the last time he had his teeth checked? Any infection can spike blood sugar too, so if there is a bad tooth or something it could be causing all these issues.

Second, how are his poops now? Big puffy smelly soft pale? How many per day?

Lastly I would try and get a couple more tests during the day, especially if you shoot under 200. The key to dosing and not causing a hypo, is to find out how low the dose is taking him.. Preshot tests don't tell you this..

I usually recommend 3-4 tests a day

- always before the shot - this is mandatory as you don't want to shoot when too low. As a newbie this too low number is 200 but is reduced over time once you have the data to know if its safe.
- mid cycle - 5-7 hours after morning shot depending on your schedule. This is to see how low the cat’s blood sugar is going. The low point "nadir" is what you base dose changes on since you don't want the cat dropping too low (under 50).
- before bed (2-3hours after Pm shot) to get an idea of what the cat's overnight plans are. If this number is less than the pre shot test number you may want to set the alarm for a test a few hours later as this implies an active cycle.

Wendy

 

But he eats at least 4 times a day..his sugar never goes below the 190's. Even over night. mid day ones are running around 260 to 280. Mornings are the lowest and that is 6 hours without eating. Tom feeds him before he goes to be around 2 and I am up at 8 to test him and feed him. I need to get his sugar lower as he is wanting to eat all the time!

Emma

 

Would you please add your insulin to your signature via the Control Panel in the upper left corner of the page? I believe it is the 2nd tab where you can edit that.

For ProZinc, PZI, Lantus, and Levemir, if you've not gotten any mid-cycle shots below 150 mg/dL for 5 full days on the initial dose, or 3 full days on any subsequent dose, you may increase 0.25 units. You have to have gotten mid-cycle tests in the +5 to +7 hours after the shot to know how low he is going. (My phone doesn't always let me see the spreadsheets)

 

It is on my signature