? Is Luci cat losing weight too fast? Too much?

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (The Main Forum)' started by Sue and Luci, Jan 2, 2018.

  1. Sue and Luci

    Sue and Luci Member

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    Nov 3, 2017
    Luci's BG is still under 200...seems to be creeping up lately. She's getting only canned all meat - grain free diet and her eating pattern has changed recently. She's very, very picky. I've tried some new canned all meat foods and she turns up her nose at most of them. Won't touch her old favorite 'I And Love And You' - wants to 'scratch' over it...meaning, I'm not eating THAT!

    So with her BG under 200, do you think losing 2 pounds in a little over 2 months is too fast? Too much? She seems hungry frequently - is up on the counters looking for food - we don't allow counter cats! So she knows better!

    Any advice or recommendations? I trust this group with better information than vets. If all else fails, I'm prepared to give insulin (we already have it from previous vet)...or see another vet. However, Luci was so traumatized by the last vet visit (as we all were, from his statement - if it was my cat, I'd put her down)...we thought she'd been given a death sentence! In short, we're all reluctant to see a vet - unless there's nothing else we can do for her at home...checking BG, insulin if/when needed.

    Would like to see her appetite increase a bit...

    Thank you!
     
  2. Myagi (GA) and Heidi

    Myagi (GA) and Heidi Well-Known Member

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    Hi @SueGeorgeandLuci :) welcome! You'll get Good help here with Luci's care. The GA you put on title means gone ahead. Since, thank goodness, Luci is still with you and needs help, please change it to the question mark. Wishing you all the best! :bighug::bighug::bighug:
     
  3. Sue and Luci

    Sue and Luci Member

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    Thanks so much for the correction info! I'm new to the group :)
     
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  4. Myagi (GA) and Heidi

    Myagi (GA) and Heidi Well-Known Member

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  5. Sue and Luci

    Sue and Luci Member

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    Thanks so much! I too have the Blood Sugar Gold - Luci was getting so picky with her food, I stopped giving it to her...may try again :)
     
  6. Myagi (GA) and Heidi

    Myagi (GA) and Heidi Well-Known Member

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    Myagi likes the bacon flavor of it but I still have to mix it in good. Maybe add your post over on the board for the insulin you have a rx for. I know you haven't started giving it yet, but the folks that use the same one will be better able to help. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  7. Doodles & Karen

    Doodles & Karen Well-Known Member

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    @Myagi and Heidi asked that I stop by and try to help out. While I'm no means an expert, there's nothing more that concerns me then a cat that is not eating or not eating enough. 2lbs in 2 months in my opinion is too much and could be an underlying health issue that warrants a vet check. I too, had horrid experiences with vets during Doodles journey. I fired 5 vets and 2 IM vets before finding one who was acceptable.....so keep looking. Luci's BG numbers indicate she is diabetic and does need some insulin support but at this point I can't advise you about starting insulin. What insulin did the vet prescribe out of curiosity? Uncontrolled diabetics can lose weight but usually they are eating a lot and just losing weight.

    Hopefully Luci improving, sending hugs and prayers.
     
  8. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Well-Known Member

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    Luci also looks to me like she needs insulin. Keep in mind that when they need insulin but are not getting it, they build up glucose toxicity. That can make it harder to regulate them down the road.

    Two pounds in two months is really fast; it could be the unregulated diabetes but her BG is not horrible. Unregulated diabetics not on insulin usually eat a lot unless there is something else going on. I would have her bloodwork checked by my vet. Things that can cause inappetence and weight loss include, but are not limited to, inflammatory bowel disease, chronic kidney disease, and hyperthyroidism. Usually, a hyperT cat will also eat a lot but if it hasn’t been caught an the T4 is really high, they start to have other issues which can cause weight loss.
     
  9. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Indeed. Prior to treatment, as fast as I was putting food into one end of Lúnasa she was dumping it out the other end. At one stage her GI transit time was so insanely fast that the food came out the other end looking not a lot different to how it went in.


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  10. Sue and Luci

    Sue and Luci Member

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    When we took her to the vet in November, her T4 was '4' - so within normal limits. She did eat a little better today - she likes it when I put down a smaller portion - like half a can...ate it all...then comes to see me for the other half a little while later...and at lunch I gave her some crushed tortilla chips (about a tablespoon) sprinkled over and mixed a bit with half a can of food...she seemed very interested, but didn't eat all the food that time...

    As soon as I get over this nasty cold I'll get to the store and get some of her favorite dry food - Temptations - those dry treats - crush a few and sprinkle them into and over her food. I'd like to see her not lose anymore weight...otherwise we'll have to face the awful vet experience.
     
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  11. Sue and Luci

    Sue and Luci Member

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    The vet prescribed NovalinN. I have yet to start it...
     
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  12. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Here's the FDMB Beginner's Guide to Novolin N.

    Important: If you haven't done so already, please let your vet know that Luci tends to be a 'small eater'. With Novolin N you need to make sure a cat has quite a substantial feed about 1 hr before giving the insulin as it kicks in quite early after the dose is given and can lower BG rather quickly at the beginning of the cycle.

    BTW, as an alternative to Temptations (high carb) as a food topper perhaps see if Luci would like crumbled freeze-dried protein treats (low carb). A lot of cats really like them, some even more than Temptations (and that's saying something!). I'm not in the US but I think Pure Bites may be one brand. Bonita flakes are another thing that might tempt her.) At the end of the day, the most important thing is to get food into her. All going well, when Luci starts receiving insulin and her body is again able to fully benefit from the food she is eating, she will start to regain the weight she has lost.

    Be sure to post and ask for any help or support you need. :)


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  13. Sue and Luci

    Sue and Luci Member

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    We don’t have a vet right now.. we left that guy in Michigan and haven’t found a new one here in a Florida.. yet.

    Where will I find the freeze dried treats? I’m dealing with a horrible cold and don’t feel like running around.. Pet store is fairly close by.
     
  14. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Will post a thread on Feline Health asking for recommendations and where to buy.

    I hope your cold gets better soon. :bighug:


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  15. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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  16. Myagi (GA) and Heidi

    Myagi (GA) and Heidi Well-Known Member

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    Fyi since it just the protein, you'll get a better deal buying from the dog section and breaking into smaller pieces. I haven't made it there yet but was told Wal-Mart good for freeze dried chicken.
     
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  17. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Well-Known Member

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    How old is Luci? If she’s over ten, a tT4 of 4 is most definitely in the “gray zone” for hyperthyroidism. Further testing should be done. Most vets will do a fT4 with ED.

    What happens with older cats is that any concurrent illness can cause their tT4 to appear lower than it actually is so they seem to have a normal thyroid when, in effect, they might be hyperthyroid. That’s actually a pretty high number if she’s over ten.
     
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  18. Sue and Luci

    Sue and Luci Member

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    Hello, And thanks for the response; Luci is 9 years old. She'll be 10 next December...so I'm not sure what to make of the T4. With her age, under 10, do you think I should pursue this? I'm still confused enough about the Insulin - one responder said to keep in mind she's a 'small feeder' - she only eats a few teaspoons of food at a time - so have to be careful about how much insulin. I'll go back and discuss with that person -- I'm finding all of this somewhat overwhelming.
     
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  19. Sue and Luci

    Sue and Luci Member

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    Update: Found a vet here in Naples/Bonita Springs that has TWO other diabetic cats that they're caring for - who are in remission! This was good news to me - as I had called another vet and the receptionist didn't know if they had any diabetic patients. She didn't seem very interested in finding out and told me they were very busy - couldn't have an appointment until next Wednesday. Ok, I'll check with some other area vets and will get back to you. However, my next call was to a vet in Bonita Springs - and this was a good call! They confirmed that they care for diabetic cats and were appalled to hear that my previous vet recommended euthanasia - and that they had an appointment available at 10 this morning! So off we went. Wonderful people! The office staff were kind and soft-spoken. Luci isn't big on people who speak loudly - she finds that scary! So they spoke with her softly and were able to handle her - pick her up and they were gentle with her. The vet came in after a bit and was full of praise about the fact that I'd been able to check her BG and to keep records of it! He was very impressed and said most of his patients aren't able to do that - won't even try. So for that I THANK this group!! Another life saved due all of your knowledge and caring comments!

    The reason that I wanted to see a vet was I'm not sure whether to start insulin or not. I have NovalinN - refrigerated - and the proper syringes - however with her BG's running under 200 and her being a light feeder - I don't want her to drop out on me! I'm also concerned that her weight loss (2 lbs in less than 2 months) is too much, too soon.

    He took blood samples and discussed a possible UTI (the previous vet didn't check for that)...so we have plastic pellets in the litter box and I'm just waiting for her to pee (I have a syringe and a vial ready to scoop up and take back to drop off for a UA)...he's also concerned that she may have pancreatitis, gallbaldder issues or possibly another issue? We're going to wait for the labs to see what they say - then next step may be an ultrasound. He has meds for any of the above conditions up to and including possibly starting insulin if needed.

    He feels the low carb diet (essentially Atkins) has caused the weight loss. Otherwise she looks good to him, fur, bones, body weight. I'll post another report when we have more news about Luci and next steps.

    Again, thank you all so much for helping with Luci! I'll be keeping my fingers crossed that the blood work is good and if it does show something - it's something treatable. Luci is glad to be home from the vet. She really was quite good there...nothing like what happened at the other vet - no real 'fit' a little growling and hissing...but nothing out of line with what you might expect from a normal cat - certainly not the neurotic tantrum she had at the last vet (where he put her in an aquarium with a lid to 'gas' her so he could draw blood...totally unnecessary today :)
     
  20. Myagi (GA) and Heidi

    Myagi (GA) and Heidi Well-Known Member

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    What a fabulous update! :bighug::bighug: so happy you found a new vet who is open and receptive to managing Luci's care! That's huge. Just please proceed carefully on the food front as kitties need the low carb food for their glucose control when diabetic. Myagi gained back a healthy amount (He was obese before he got sick and dropped down to nothing) on low carb only. I'm so happy you found a new vet that Luci likes!:bighug:
     
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  21. Sue and Luci

    Sue and Luci Member

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    Well, that's all relative of course - I did like the new vet a great deal! Staff were kind and supportive! As for Luci, I don't think she made besties there...but at least it was a far less traumatic visit for her. They gave us some Hills TID treats - and she was VERY IMPRESSED! She's had her limit today - I crushed on up at home and sprinkled it on her food...and she's EATING! I'm so glad to see that...I can see what I'll be doing for her next meal. They gave us a little baggie and told me to help myself - we have enough to last (if she doesn't get into the cupboard and find them!)...several days - as she's only going to get a very few - crushed with her meals...just to entice her - until her salmon treats arrive tomorrow...I think she's just all Atkin's dieted out...is that a thing...sick of protein? Craving carbs? Maybe???
     
  22. Myagi (GA) and Heidi

    Myagi (GA) and Heidi Well-Known Member

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    Maybe since she's eating a bit, you can get some rest and nurse yourself back to 100%! Your health is just as important as hers! :bighug:
     
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  23. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Speechless.

    :mad:

    So glad you've found a much better practice.


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  24. Sue and Luci

    Sue and Luci Member

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    When you say Myagi 'dropped down to nothing' I feel like that's what's happening to Luci. I find it alarming that she's lost so much weight so quickly - however when you're on Atkin's no carbs - just joking about that - but that's what the vet called it today - he said, you know, it's just like an Atkin's diet - all protein/fats, no carbs...Yes, I agreed...she's been removed from all those carbs and the weight is just falling off! I expressed my concern with that..he mentioned a canned food called Diabetic...something...but I can't remember what he called it exactly. However, before I out buying anymore food - what did they tell you to start feeling your Myagi so he'd gain a bit of weight? And I will wait for the blood work to come back as well - but if you could share perhaps it would be something to consider in the meantime. I think she looks like she's starving.

    I am happy to report that she's eaten some chicken (removed from the bone) and a couple of salmon treats...and a bit of her Fancy Feast - ate all the parmesean cheese that I'd grated over the top...but none of the food itself; when I resorted to crushing one of those Hills TID treats into her food...she ate a bit more of that...she really loves those Hill's TID treats...but they may be too carby for her other than an occasional treat - just like the rest of us - once in a while we get a cookie :) :) If we're good...
     
  25. Myagi (GA) and Heidi

    Myagi (GA) and Heidi Well-Known Member

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    20141103_142324-1-1.jpg 20171213_135643.jpg
    Before and current. He prob dropped 11 lbs or so in blink of eye (diabetes can be vicious) and has gained back around 4 or so putting him where he should be. I don't have pics of him scrawny with horrible coat cause it was too heartbreaking for me. But without sounding like a broken record, getting sugar regulated and insulin on board will increase the appetite. Unregulated, a voracious appetite will still result in wasting because the nutrients aren't being processed. I got rid of dry and switched to low carb wet pate only. There are good calories for Luci in the low and mid carb food. It's scary but with patience you should see progress with her. :bighug:

    And don't forget, our kids are carnivores and don't eat dry food in the wild. A kitty eating mice and birds doesn't say "pass the potatoes". :eek::joyful:
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2018
    Reason for edit: Typo
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  26. Sue and Luci

    Sue and Luci Member

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    What a beautiful boy!! I’m glad he’s doing so well!

    I’m hoping once this vet gets the number s back we can figure out a better diet.. with insulin as needed.
    Whatever it takes to get her healthy and feeling great again.
     
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  27. Myagi (GA) and Heidi

    Myagi (GA) and Heidi Well-Known Member

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    Positivity is key! Just remember it's going to be more you than the vet - and Luci will be driving the bus! You're doing amazing so far. :bighug:
     
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  28. Myagi (GA) and Heidi

    Myagi (GA) and Heidi Well-Known Member

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    Forgot to say thanks! I'm kinda partial to him myself. Lol
     
  29. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Well-Known Member

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    The issue with this is that you could contaminate the specimen and it could have bacteria from your handling of it. Normally, to determine if a cat has a UTI, the vet needs to get urine via cystocentesis to keep the specimen sterile.

    I don’t know whether to laugh or cry about this statement. Cats are obligate carnivores. That means they need very, very little carbs. I hope that what he means is that you were feeding a lot of carbs and when you stopped, her weight dropped. However, it isn’t about the carbs; it’s about the calories. So if you are feeding a less caloric food but feeding the same amount, she will lose weight. As an example, I feed my cats a balanced raw diet (my kitten was started on it the day after I got her). My boy, Tobey, ate canned food the first two years of his life and ate 3-3 oz cans of Wellness a day. However, when I transitioned him to a balanced raw diet, he gets the same number of calories in a total of 4 oz because raw is so nutrient and calorie dense. His weight never changed.

    If she were my cat, I definitely would.
     
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  30. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Also known in feline circles as the 'CAtkins' diet. :)


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    Last edited: Jan 6, 2018
  31. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    I think Marje's recommendation to further investigate thyroid function is a good one. According to the article linked below hyperthyroidism is widely considered to be the most common endocrine disorder seen in cats over the age of 8 years, and our vet told me it's quite a common ailment in cats from middle age onwards.

    My civvie, Lúnasa, is a hyper-T kitty. She became really symptomatic just after her 10th birthday (took a while to diagnose because it caused her major GI issues and vets investigated these first). The Noodle was eating for Ireland and, unfortunately, pooping for Ireland as well so her weight loss was initially suspected to be due to malabsorption issues. Eventually the appropriate blood work was completed and it showed her to be hyper-T. Unfortunately by that time the Noodler's heart wall had developed substantial thickening (see below). Thankfully the Noodle was a candidate for radioiodine therapy and her treatment was successful (will be taking her for a heart scan in the near future to see whether the HCM situation has improved). Most hyper-T kitties do great with drug treatment, e.g. methimazole (lifelong).


    Additional Info about Hyperthyroidism (helpful general background education - I only found this stuff out after the Noodle's Dx)

    * Heart disease and/or hypertension may occur secondary to hyperthyroidism.

    The increased metabolic rate associated with hyperthyroidism puts a strain on the kitty's system as levels get higher and this can cause thickening of the heart wall (hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, HCM). While it is true that the HCM can improve somewhat after thyroid levels have been brought back under control for a sufficiently long period it's obviously better if one can spot and treat hyper-T in the early stages in order to help keep a kitty's heart healthy.

    The kitty's blood pressure should also be monitored to check for hypertension (which may possibly require drug treatment).

    * Hyperthyroidism, Kidney Insufficiency and Hyper-T Treatment Options

    Another advantage of catching hyperthyroidism early is that it gives a kitty more chance of being a candidate for radioactive iodine therapy, a treatment which can actually cure hyperthyroidism. Elevated thyroid levels increase the flow rate of filtered fluid through the kidneys (glomerular filtration rate, GFR). It is possible, therefore, for hyper-T to mask any underlying renal impairment which may be present in the cat. Any such kidney insufficiency will become evident during drug treatment to bring thyroid levels back into the normal range. Cats with marked renal insufficiency are unsuitable candidates for radioiodine treatment. Instead, the cat will be treated for the remainder of its life with anti-thyroid medication. With regular blood monitoring the vet will refine the dose to keep thyroid hormones at a slightly higher level than might be ideal in order to protect kidney function (a sort of 'trade-off'). The younger the cat is when hyper-T is caught, the less likely it is that the cat will have any marked renal impairment and therefore it is more likely to have more hyper-T treatment options available.

    * Further reading: Hyperthyroidism and the kidneys



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  32. Lillie

    Lillie Member

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    When I took my kitty off all high carb dry food and transitioned to high protein canned only he lost weight. I found that I had to increase his wet food intake an awful lot to keep his weight up. I put food out several times a day and sometimes sprinkle some Forti Flora over it to entice him to eat more. It's a good appetite stimulant for my cat and has a strong aroma which he loves.
     
  33. Lesliejm

    Lesliejm Member

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    Where in Florida? I am in cape Coral.
     
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  34. Lesliejm

    Lesliejm Member

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    I also give temptations for a bg check treat and a shot treat.
     
  35. Lesliejm

    Lesliejm Member

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    My vet charges 15$ for a blood pressure check!
     
  36. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Blimey! Our vets will check BP as part of the general consult if it's needed (for frequent flyers at least). I have had vets in the past who would've happily charged clients for the air they breathed while on the vets' premises if it were legal to do so. :rolleyes:


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  37. Myagi (GA) and Heidi

    Myagi (GA) and Heidi Well-Known Member

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    Fyi Sue and Luci started lantus today and have a thread over there now. :cat:
     
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  38. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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